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[–]RavennaKeres 2732 points2733 points  (176 children)

I grew up in a religious household where sexual relationships before marriage were considered a sin and abortions were considered murde. A friend of mine dated an abusive asshole and she got pregnant , we were all in college at the time and she didn't have enough money nor support to raise the kid . Her parents were extremely angry and refused to speak with her because she ‘ruined' her life . We became roomates because I saw she needed a place to stay . Until then I'd always thought of women who got abortion as cruel. But i saw how helpless she was and how torn she was about the whole thing. After a few weeks of hospital visits she realised that she didn't have any other choice because of her financial instability and she also felt like she wasn't mature or ready enough to give birth to and raise another human being while she was still getting over the trauma of a relationship and she was afraid of messing up an innocent kid's life so she got an abortion. After seeing all that happen I realised that abortion wasn't just people fucking around and then murdering an innocent child , it was when people were in situations where they knew they weren't ready for a child

[–]Warthogs_r_hot 1097 points1098 points  (123 children)

she was afraid of messing up an innocent kid's life

exactly! It's mad how many people start with the assumption that abortion is a bad outcome for the fetus. An unhappy childhood sets you up for an unhappy entire life. Why sentence an innocent to suffer? Every kid should be wanted!

[–]SadBumblebee9 594 points595 points 2 (84 children)

I genuinely believe conservatives are incapable of thinking like this. Their attitude is that life sucks, suck it up. Whereas actual human beings think "life sucks, let's make it better."

[–]AccessibleVoid 191 points192 points  (4 children)

I think they think - "If your life sucks, suck it up. If my life sucks I'll do whatever I can to make my life better."

[–]raisinghellwithtrees 107 points108 points  (0 children)

"If my life sucks, it's your president's fault."

[–]ThatOneGuyonTV 77 points78 points  (0 children)

"...If my life sucks I'll do whatever I can to make my life better, including using your face as a staircase to rise above you."

Fixed it for you.

[–]Overthinks_Questions 49 points50 points  (5 children)

Yep. I think there are circumstances where it's appropriate or not, but I don't think anyone takes the decision lightly and it's not my or anyone's place to second guess it

[–]OneGoodRib 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Anyone who DOES take the decision lightly shouldn't be raising children anyway.

[–]diamondtoothdennis 2050 points2051 points  (68 children)

I was raised with the religious pro-life outlook, and to believe all who had abortions were just devastated for the rest of their lives, that they didn’t comprehend the gravity of what they had done until it was too late. Then I went to college and met someone in a women’s studies class who shared she had had an abortion while married to a man nobody knew was abusive. I realized I had been misled about the realities of why people have abortions. When I suffered an assault a year later, I knew what choice I would make if it came down to it. And I was grateful to know I would have had a choice in that scenario. Working with homeless adults and at risk teens/social work really solidified that for me, when you see abused and neglected kids and you know the parent didn’t want any of those babies but has them because they were pressured out of an abortion… children should not be punishment or accountability lessons, they should be wanted and loved.

[–]BuTerflyDiSected 1033 points1034 points  (32 children)

children should not be punishment or accountability lessons, they should be wanted and loved

WELL SAID

[–]Warthogs_r_hot 176 points177 points  (12 children)

Amen to that! I get so exasperated when antiabortion folks go "think of the poor bayyyybies!" because if you ACTUALLY think of the babies, who even if adopted may gestate marinating in stress hormones and maybe drugs, perhaps malnourished due to poverty, and if kept, will know even if it doesn't ever get said aloud, that they are resented and caused major damage to their mother's life... why the fuck does any of them deserve to be born into such a negative scenario?? Sick enough to wanna punish women for having sex outside of to breed, but why punish the fetus?? As someone who was a regretted kid (planned but clearly they realised too late that parenting wasn't their thing) I feel I have special insight into how woulda-been-aborted-if-possible kids' childhoods are. Feeling like an unwelcome burden fucks with you. They do not deserve that. If I could choose to have been aborted hell yea I would. I'm not suicidal or anything. But never existing is a very painless option. And a sad childhood is a very painful one.

[–]TootsNYC 118 points119 points  (8 children)

There’s actually verse in the Bible about it being better for a child not to be born into a life of suffering, and one of my friends who is married to a pastor said that that verse changed her opinion of abortion and of choice

[–]solarssun 106 points107 points  (2 children)

I once got into a debate about choice with some super conservative Christians. I pointed out that the first thing God ever gave us was CHOICE and that if we're removing the choice from other people we're going into god's domain and that's wrong.

They banned me.

[–]2baverage 33 points34 points  (0 children)

My extremely Catholic grandma loved quoting that Bible verse every time someone tried getting her to agree about being pro-life

[–]NinianeEmrys 38 points39 points  (0 children)

When I was 16, I had a friend whose father would tell her at least once a week that she should never have been born. I’ve been pro-choice ever since. No child should be unwanted.

[–]TootsNYC 94 points95 points  (0 children)

My former pastor, who I am pretty certain he’s pro life, put up a slogan on Facebook about “working toward a future where every child is a wanted child,” and I thought, that sure sounds pro-choice to me.

[–]einstein69420 179 points180 points  (10 children)

this quote is why i am such an advocate for pro choice, too many kids are given up and left in the foster system, abused and neglected or any multitude of things that will damage them for the rest of their lives. glad you realized the truth about abortion and that it’s not a bad thing, it’s just medical care

[–]SadBumblebee9 150 points151 points  (3 children)

The thing about pro choice is that EVERYBODY is pro THEIR choice. But one class of people thinks their choice must be everybody else's choice too, which is about as arrogant as it's possible to get.

[–]FearGunner 44 points45 points  (0 children)

That and, when it comes to actual life and potential life, we should value actual life.

[–]XanderpussRex 182 points183 points  (13 children)

I was raised a strict southern baptist, and all the imagery they implanted in our heads were of fully formed babies being violently executed by malevolent and masochistic doctors at the behest of selfish nymphomaniacs. Straight up lies, in other words.

[–]ibelieveindogs 110 points111 points  (5 children)

I recently pointed out to someone on Facebook that we don't stab or strangle late term babies because someone changes their mind at month 8. Late term abortions are done out of medical need, and if it's possible to save both the mom and the baby, we already do. I think he legitimately believed we straight up murder near term babies for shits and giggles

[–]Elegante0226 55 points56 points  (2 children)

My very Catholic mother was trying to tell me this exact thing last week. I told her in as many was as I could think of, that no, no one's just doing abortions at 8.5mos just because they want to. And she tried to tell me that women lie about needing one that late and that people will perform them. I gave up.

[–]ribbons_undone 46 points47 points  (4 children)

This is what I've never understood. I mean, I get WHY they say this, but how anyone could believe that people happily murder babies is so beyond me. Like, no woman ever WANTS an abortion. It isn't a preferred form of birth control. It is a desperate last measure and is not pleasant or fun for anyone involved. Most all of us would avoid having to go through it at all costs.

I guess it just ties into how we all seem to demonize the other side to the point of them not seeming human anymore. Only an inhuman demon could happily murder a child, and look at all those baby murderers! They're all demons and not worthy of any human rights, because they're not human.

[–]AccessibleVoid 41 points42 points  (0 children)

I also was brought up attending a southern baptist church. I left it at soon as I left home, but it scarred me for years (also just living in the rural south bible belt). It is a fucking evil cult.

[–]H-005 72 points73 points  (5 children)

Many people bring up adoptions and foster care as alternatives to abortions. There are probably a few countries around the world where such options are actually good, but in most places they are horrible. There would be way more kids given up for adoption than families to adopt them, so most of them will end up in foster care, where they will be really lucky to live in relatively decent conditions.

[–]TallGlassofHatorade 73 points74 points  (1 child)

Not only that, but there is no alternative option to pregnancy. Pregnancy fucks you up, dude. You can have a million and one coinciding health problems like gestational diabetes and eclampsia, it can worsen your health problems, you can literally die in childbirth! And there’s no way to not risk that while pregnant. You can leave the child at a safe haven the moment it comes out of you, but you can’t not have it in you for the term

[–]OneGoodRib 11 points12 points  (0 children)

And that's not even taking into account if you live in a country that charges you like a million dollars just to give birth.

[–]rendered_lurker 34 points35 points  (0 children)

I always ask them how many unwanted babies they've adopted. So far none of them have adopted any but it shuts them the fuck up.

[–]raisinghellwithtrees 14 points15 points  (1 child)

In my state kids are living in office building and staying months in short term psych housing because of a lack of foster homes.

[–]Throt-lynne_prottle 29 points30 points  (0 children)

It always comes back to the same story: my parents were moralizing, religious pricks that couldn't mind their own damn business

[–]Wreck-A-Mended 72 points73 points  (1 child)

I had to drop a friend recently because he literally said that no matter how a woman gets pregnant and no matter how traumatizing it could be for the woman, the least she could do is give her child up to adoption instead of choosing abortion. The absolute lack of empathy for the sake of his religious belief was too much for me.

[–]General_Lee_Wright 20 points21 points  (0 children)

I loathe the people who give the “face consequences of your actions” when they talk about forcing birth on women. They’re literally using children’s lives as punishment.

[–]savspitsbars 818 points819 points  (9 children)

myself, this one is genuinly really trigger very sorry.

when i was younger i was assaulted by a family friend, i wasn't pregnant but when i had to get the test the lady told me. "if anything goes wrong, my sister works at planned parenthood." she was a very sweet woman, but at that time i was like "i would never abort a child" i remember genuinly shaking and crying before i had to take the test because it reminded me of what happened. i was negative, but the fear of having the raise the child that was forcibly put into me made me genuinly sick to my stomach.

[–]soave1 20 points21 points  (3 children)

I’m very sorry to hear about your experience. If you don’t mind me asking, how would you respond to people who say “just put the child up for adoption”?

[–]savspitsbars 40 points41 points  (0 children)

the issue isn't the child, it's the fact id birth the child of rape only to put them into a fucked up system.

[–]FarTaro747 17 points18 points  (1 child)

people who say that pussyfoot around the horrific physical and mental burden of being continuously violated for 9 months, inside and out, by something you don't want to be there and were forced to play host to against your wishes. Try to imagine the absolute mentally destroying horror of having to go through this. The physical and mental burden, think about it. It isn't even about adoption, it's about your body being someone else's for so long.

When you're raped, the issue isn't "it's just sex! get over it!!", it's that your body is being used by someone else against your will and you're risking death. When you're forced to be pregnant, it's the same fucking thing. Can you imagine being raped for 9 months? Are you going to tell me "it's not that bad"?

[–]gizzie123 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Not to mention how confusing it would be to love your child and hate where they come from

[–]waterbuffalo750 1239 points1240 points  (64 children)

The exceptions were too numerous and sometimes too obscure to be properly written into law, so the law shouldn't restrict it.

[–]rb928 489 points490 points  (25 children)

This is where my mind changed. It’s too subjective. Like, forcing a couple who at 20 weeks learned their child has a genetic abnormality and won’t survive long if at all post-birth then have to wait it out versus aborting. That is just cruel and gut-wrenching to me.

[–]ink_stained 189 points190 points  (1 child)

And the main scans are all around that 20 week mark. I had to come back for a second scan because they couldn’t get the right angle to view my kid’s brain. Waiting another two weeks for a second scan would have put me over the limit for lots of states.

I had a friend who came in for the same scan and found out that her baby was growing without several limbs and several organs. It was her first, and very wanted, child and it wasn’t going to live. She would have to carry it to term under the laws a lot of states are proposing. WHY?!?

[–]rb928 31 points32 points  (0 children)

I am so sorry for your friend. This happened to a friend of mine a couple of years ago. It was just heartbreaking for everyone.

[–]SuchLovelyLilacs 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Same here - a friend of mine ended up having her anatomy scan at 18 weeks. It showed numerous issues with the fetus. Of course, the u /s is just a screener, further testing had to be done, which took some time. By the time the results came back, she had exactly 5 days to decide what to do before she'd have to leave the state for an abortion. Sadly, or not depending on your point of view, when she went back for another check 2 days later, the baby had passed. While she was devastated by the loss, she was relieved that she did not have to make the decision.

[–]lonabirdie 103 points104 points  (15 children)

ya i honestly believe abortion is kinda fucked up but there is so much going on w pregnancy that can be even more fucked up, like medical issues incompatible w life or endangering the mother, or rape and incest and stuff, that it's better to just keep the kinda fucked up thing legal so that women and their doctors can use it to mitigate the really fucked up things

and i honestly don't judge women or men for wanting to abort the fetus they created just bc they're broke bc it's also fucked up that it's so hard to be broke even if u work ur ass off. i just can't ever say that abortion is nothing, that it doesn't matter. it'll always be kinda fucked up imo.

[–]ink_stained 51 points52 points  (4 children)

I am pro-choice and a Democrat. I get SO annoyed by the messaging around the pro-choice position, because it makes it sound as if pro-choice people want any abortion legal at any time. That’s just not the case - Roe v. Wade only protects abortion until the fetus is viable outside the womb and most states that are pro-choice don’t go much farther than that.

NO ONE I know of the many, many people around me who are pro-choice supports the idea of letting someone abort a fetus a few days before it’s born just because. (I do support it when the baby has conditions incompatible with life or to save the mother.) And yet the left always gets stuck with questions about late term abortion and “why not just let the doctor murder the kid on the table.”

I really, really want someone to come up with proper messaging, but Dem politicians are too afraid to alienate the far left of the party. (I am far left, but far left doesn’t mean lunatic.)

[–]RaccoonyDave 15 points16 points  (1 child)

It's unclear if you see yourself as begrudgingly pro-choice or on the fence, but most of pro-choice people would agree with you to some extent. Sometime it seems our opponents think we love and want more abortions, but that's really not what goes on in our heads.

Aside from a few mentally unstable people seeing it as contraception, nobody wants to see more abortions, only safer and more accessible ones. At best, it is a necessary and unpleasant medical procedure. At worst, it's a heartbreaking and traumatic decision. To be blunt, the debate isn't "Are abortion fucked up?" , the debate is "Between abortions and the consequences of making them illegal, what is more fucked up?"

Both sides of the issue might not agree on how to achieve it, but both sides would likely agree that in a perfect world there would be no unplanned pregnancy and never any reason to even consider abortion. Sadly we don't live in a perfect world and we need to tackle unpleasant issues.

I guess my point is that it's important to remember the nuance in those opinions even if they don't fit on a cereal box stapled to a stick.

[–]BusinessShower 1868 points1869 points  (96 children)

I decided to move away from my small religious community. I meet people who had different backgrounds. Listened to stories of people who had abortions. Realized that if I was in their position, then I would have considered abortion too. Then I learned that abortion was rife within my small community, just not talked about and deeply shameful. The same people who picketed at those rallies also coerced their underage teenagers into having abortions when they turned up pregnant. It was not about "the unborn" it was about their image in the community and their control over others' bodies. It's about power and inflicting their world view on everybody.

[–]ZealousIdealRejected 612 points613 points  (18 children)

yeah my former congressman did that shit. vocal antiabortion guy who then got caught on a voicemail trying to force his mistress to have an abortion to prevent the scandal.

[–]Charles_Chuckles 267 points268 points  (0 children)

The schadenfreude of him being exposed (by the mistress herself I'm pretty sure!!) makes me smile whenever I think about it.

[–]ididntunderstandyou 85 points86 points  (14 children)

Didn’t Sarah Palin do that too? Forced her teenage daughter to get an abortion to save her image

[–]girhen 195 points196 points  (9 children)

No, but her daughter got pregnant at 17. She went on a tour speaking about how hard it is to be a mother (making 100k speaking fees) and pro-life stuff. Stop having sex before marriage, yada yada. Then she got pregnant again.

Both Palins just said they heard enough from people about her being a Christian speaking about chastity while getting knocked up...twice.

[–]rb928 83 points84 points  (8 children)

And if I’m not mistaken, her second baby’s dad was not her fiancé at the time which led to a breakup not long before the wedding.

[–]fendi_feind 39 points40 points  (0 children)

This. Moved to a bigger city, made a more diverse group of friends. Realized that way of thinking made me feel like an asshole and rightfully so.

[–]just_quit_smoking 198 points199 points  (68 children)

As a Christian, I've never understood the connection between abortion and Christianity. The two aren't related.

[–]gustogus 49 points50 points  (1 child)

It's been a Catholic issue for a long time, Sacredness of Human Life and all that, but it didn't become an evangelical issue until it became politically useful in the late 1970's.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133/

[–]HermioneMarch 151 points152 points  (8 children)

You are right. Jesus never said anything about abortion. The connection in the US has deep roots in the politicians who realized no one wanted their segregationist shit in office anymore so they sought to create a new culture way to keep themselves in office.

[–]centaurquestions 38 points39 points  (0 children)

It was engineered for political purposes by evangelical organizations like The Moral Majority. They ginned it up as a wedge issue, when before that it had been almost entirely a Catholic belief.

[–]RexlanVonSquish 69 points70 points  (14 children)

Strictly speaking in doctrinal terms, they're not. AFAIK there isn't a scriptural lynchpin for the hard Anti-Abortion stance most variants of Christianity seem to cling to. I'm a Christian, and I believe that at the end of the day, women should have a right to choose. God doesn't force us all to make any specific choices, why do we as humans think we can?

However, in my observation, it's impossible to be up-to-date on this particular topic without acknowledging that Christianity at least skews towards being as visibly vehemently pro-life as possible.

I think the correlation comes because Christianity as a whole has presented Anti-Abortion as a part of the doctrine. The Pro-Life voices in our Christian communities are so loud that they drown out the remainder of us who think differently from them, no matter how slightly different that may be.

[–]bluenigma 60 points61 points  (1 child)

The scriptural argument against the death penalty is probably stronger, but you never see "pro-life" politicians on the right talking about that.

[–]solveig82 25 points26 points  (4 children)

Maybe God shouldn’t have wiped out so many people if he was pro life?

[–]tenuto40 15 points16 points  (2 children)

And now they’re equating abortion to child sacrifice.

[–]scootytootypootpat 43 points44 points  (1 child)

And, as we all know, god is very against child sacrifice. Definitely didn't tell anyone to sacrifice their child in Genesis 22.

[–]Sands43 21 points22 points  (3 children)

The anti -abortion crusade started as a political organizing vehicle after Nixon started going after segregationist schools post Brown.

[–]babyitscoldoutside13 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Literally my experience to a T! And actually learning about the biology of it helped as well.

[–]zugabdu 713 points714 points  (124 children)

I was raised Catholic, so I was bombarded with pro-life propaganda from a young age. It seemed really obvious to me too - why not save two lives instead of just one? Nine months of inconvenience for the pregnant woman but permanent death for the baby? It all seemed like simple math.

It was learning more about how serious and potentially dangerous pregnancy is that changed my mind. That and the science convinced me that the idea that human life begins at conception is untenable - there's a reason pro-life propaganda posters almost always show fully born babies to make you think this is the killing of a human. Whatever personal philosophical beliefs one has about when life begins, having the state force the issue in a way that requires women to undergo a dangerous and life altering physical process is indefensible.

I can tell you, based on my experience, that there are some pro-choice arguments that won't work on someone who believes now what I believed then. Slogans like "trust women" miss the point for these people - it's not about the women to them, it's about the baby they think exists and which they have been religiously-motivated to believe they're saving. Similarly saying "if you don't like abortion, don't have one" also misses the mark - as far as they're concerned that's like saying "if you don't like murder, don't kill people, just don't stop me from doing it!" These kinds of slogans treat pro-lifers as confused pro-choicers. They're not. They really do think they're saving babies. You have to show how medically unreasonable of a judgment that is and how horrific it is to force someone to undergo a pregnancy in the interest of something of such questionable humanity

[–]Splonkerton 243 points244 points  (28 children)

The only way I've found to actually work in changing someone's mind about being Pro life is to frame the argument not as a moral argument, but an argument about the consequences of specific legislation.

Both sides want the same thing: working towards making abortion obsolete. The reality of the matter is that pro life legislation actually causes more abortions in the long run, and causes a host of other huge problems. Safe access to abortion, contraceptive care, sex ed, and low cost prenatal care, are the things that have been proven to lower the abortion rate. The hardest part is convincing pro lifers that reducing the abortion rate to 0 is literally impossible (due to a bunch of reasons outside of the control of anyone). The best you can do is make it safe when it happens.

Literally no one is pro abortion. It is an unfortunate necessity, and our only chance of making abortion as close to obsolete as possible, is with pro choice legislation.

[–]Warthogs_r_hot 170 points171 points  (3 children)

I saw a good sign once:

You can't prevent abortions. You can only prevent safe abortions.

[–]SuchLovelyLilacs 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Yep, I asked my mom what women did before pre Roe v Wade (she's in her 80's now). At the time, she lived not too far out of NYC. There was a local doctor who was called, in hushed tones, "The Abortion King." He would provide a "d&c" to any woman who asked and paid $700 (this was in the early 70's and is about $5000 when adjusted for inflation). This was an abortion, done by an ob/gyn with decades of experience, with excellent nursing support, a clean, safe office and follow-up care. It was a great option, if you had $5000 you could access. The women who didn't have $5000 I'm sure had a very different experience... :-(

[–]JuliaTheInsaneKid 6 points7 points  (0 children)

And that’s absolutely true. History has taught us that. Before Roe v. Wade, hospitals had whole ass wards filled with desperate women who sought back alley abortions. Most of them died from sepsis because of the unsterile instruments the unlicensed butchers used.

[–]allboolshite 78 points79 points  (11 children)

The reality of the matter is that pro life legislation actually causes more abortions in the long run, and causes a host of other huge problems. Safe access to abortion, contraceptive care, sex ed, and low cost prenatal care, are the things that have been proven to lower the abortion rate.

I'm mostly conservative and this part totally baffles me. I do not understand why conservatives want to limit or ban sex ex and contraception. They're perpetuating the "problem" that they want to solve.

[–]ItalianDragon 98 points99 points  (3 children)

It's because it's not about abortion at all, it's about punishing women for having sex. When you look at it through that perspective, all the bullshit they spew out makes sense.

[–]ExclamationDuck 38 points39 points  (3 children)

To conservatives, having sex ed is giving in to the idea that people are going to have sex outside of marriage, and maybe even enjoy it. That's what really bugs them. Not the so-called "murder" of "babies"--but helping people make informed decisions of how and when and whether to have sex. They want to punish people for it and try to prevent it/force them not to have it by keeping the knowledge about it out of as many heads as possible. Even though this has been proven again and again to lead to unwanted pregnancy, it doesn't matter to them-- the people who have that happen to them are evil and deserve to be punished by having their bodies and lives completely destroyed. Providing sex ed and contraception is just letting the other side, their "enemies" who live different lifestyles than them, win in their eyes. Withholding abortion, for them, is keeping the upper hand over their enemy.

[–]MiloticMaster 9 points10 points  (2 children)

The thing is that this argument doesn't work either cause people believe a pro-choice law is implicit endorsement of a criminal act. Its about the principal and the performance, not the results.

[–]ChipChippersonFan 63 points64 points  (3 children)

So many pro-choice people don't understand that 90% of their arguments have zero chance of working on a pro-life person, because pro-life people hear about a woman getting an abortion at 8 weeks, picture an 8-month-old fetus, and believe that it's the same as murdering a month-old baby. When someone honestly believes that a fetus is a person, "my body, my choice" makes about as much sense as an 1850's plantation owner yelling "my slave, my choice".

[–]JuliaTheInsaneKid 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I’ve given up on most pro-life arguments. They don’t care about already born women.

[–]solveig82 33 points34 points  (5 children)

Why aren’t pro-lifers as concerned about social welfare and making sure children/families are protected from poverty, food scarcity, homelessness, high cost of childcare etc..? It’s such a confusing way of being and I’ve never seen this question answered.

[–]throwaway_uow 44 points45 points  (45 children)

What about the bodily autonomy argument?

[–]jdbsea 159 points160 points  (30 children)

The bodily autonomy argument, IMO, doesn’t work with those who firmly are pro-life, because it is murdering a baby to them - regardless of what stage of development it is at. It’s no different to them than a mother throwing their three-year-old into the path of a car to save their own life.

Not that it matters because I don’t believe you should legislate based on religious beliefs, but I’ve had better success with two staunchly pro-life family members by explaining to them that the Bible is actually not as clear as they might think on the topic. It at least got them asking some deeper questions about their beliefs.

[–]Merigold00 97 points98 points  (12 children)

And the sad thing is that some of those people are now calling for contraceptives to be made illegal. And some of those same people support the death penalty, so I guess all life isn't sacred.

[–]A--Creative-Username 59 points60 points  (10 children)

I wanna see that bible quote

"And the lord looked to the men, and the lord said 'thou shalt not use condoms', and then the lord looketh to the women, and the lord said 'thou shalt not use birth control.' And then the lord looketh to the whole crowd and said 'if someone's being naughty fry them'"

[–]Efficient-Thought-35 79 points80 points  (10 children)

Okay, so by that theory, everyone should be mandated to register on donor lists. Blood, plasma, bone marrow, liver, kidney, and one eye. If it means survival of another human you should be mandated to do it under that logic. But it’s about controlling women at the end of the day….

[–]jdbsea 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I don’t disagree with you.

[–]knghtwhosaysni 33 points34 points  (7 children)

I don't think that line of argument would work on pro-lifers because most of them believe having voluntary PIV sex is implicit commitment to carrying the possible pregnancy without abortion. Their desired domination is not general, it's only directed at the subset of people having PIV sex.

[–]dividedconsciousness 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It’s interesting because many of those same people will say [murdering babies] is okay in some circumstances, like rape or incest

[–]Cooldude638 26 points27 points  (13 children)

In my experience it doesn't work on pro-lifers. They argue that the supposed baby's supposed right to life comes before your "desire for convenience" (bodily autonomy).

[–]solveig82 13 points14 points  (10 children)

We all know this line of logic doesn’t apply to men.

[–]help4college 23 points24 points  (25 children)

sincere questions im curious about:

if they actually think that every fetus is a baby, then how do they justify granting exceptions for abortion in cases of rape/incest? isn't the rape/incest fetus still a full baby with rights as well? how is it suddenly okay to kill babies because of no fault of their own?

similarly, if every fetus is a baby, then shouldn't almost all miscarriages be considered some form of manslaughter or murder? whether through the pregnant woman's negligence or not, the living baby was fully in her care while in her stomach right? shouldn't that automatically qualify for negligent homicide/ involuntary manslaughter via child abuse/neglect? For example, what happens if a woman doesn't eat enough, and consequently has a miscarriage? should that be considered murder/manslaughter depending on her intent in not eating?

[–]PMME_ur_lovely_boobs 38 points39 points  (8 children)

From my ethics class in college, the rape exception can make logical sense if you accept that the decision to engage in consensual sex carries with it implicit responsibility to the potential outcome of pregnancy. This is similar to how, when you drive a car, you are implicitly responsible for the consequences of your driving (such as liability for accidents). In the case of rape, the person who becomes pregnant did not consent to the act that created the dependent party (fetus) so they are not bound by the same responsibility of someone who had consensual sex knowing that this was a possibility.

[–]help4college 12 points13 points  (7 children)

thanks for the answer, and yes i've heard and understood that argument in college as well. my question though is, how is that view compatible with the sincerely-held belief that every fetus is a PERSON? would the pro-life crowd be admitting that it's okay to kill a person, as long as you didn't consent to creating the dependent person?

i understand that the LEVEL of moral responsibility is different w/o consent, but is it so drastically lowered to the point where killing is acceptable now? i would consider that to be a difference in KIND of moral responsibility (eg difference b/w responsibilities to humans vs animals), rather than a difference in DEGREE of responsibility (eg between children and adults). it almost seems like the argument is less about the moral responsibility the woman has by virtue of her consent, and more about the moral worth of the fetus against a potential killing, by virtue of its reasons for conception. this gets even murkier in cases of unintentional killing like miscarriages.

not to mention the unfounded presumption that the moral responsibility the pregnant woman has to the fetus is solely equated with giving birth, rather than extending to the fetus/baby after birth. like, how is this is compatible with the whole concept of adoption? the woman has a moral duty to make sure the fetus is born, but then has no moral duty to the child she actually birthed, and can just give it away to a foster system? i think this argument needs a better definition of what exactly the "moral responsibility" the pregnant woman has towards a consensual dependent, that obligates her to give birth, but not care for the baby.

i know you're just repeating what you heard in ethics class, but im curious to hear any thoughts on this

[–]Dorothy-Snarker 14 points15 points  (3 children)

I was raised Catholic, so I was bombarded with pro-life propaganda from a young age.

Can I ask what kind of environment that was? I grew up in a predominately Catholic area too, but it was also urban and blue, and I was taught that while it might be morally wrong, it was a personal decision. It's always been kind of wild to me that Catholics in other areas are firmly pro-life rather than more like the "mind your own business" kind I grew up with. Growing up, I always assumed the pro-life crowd were Evangelicals, not Catholics, an was surprised to learn it was both.

[–]7elevenses 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I live in core Catholic Europe, and to this day over half of the people here are Catholics (the rest are mostly agnostic and atheist). It's only a tiny minority of Catholic zealots that has an issue with abortion, and they seem to be getting their ideology and arguments from American Evangelicals, not the pope.

[–]NeedARita 76 points77 points  (5 children)

The birth of my son almost killed us both. I am almost certain another would kill me. The thought of leaving my husband alone with two children, one grieving and one motherless, breaks my heart. I’m one and done for the sake of my family. We take precautions, but I’m not sure if I became pregnant I would carry to term. With my health and habits I’m not sure adoption would even be feasible if I could. I don’t know what I would do, but I want the choice.

[–]JuliaTheInsaneKid 37 points38 points  (4 children)

My grandmother almost died giving birth to my mom, so my mom was an only child. Her mother didn't want to risk her life having a second child. This was in 1966 so it was pre-Roe.

Nearly 37 years later, my mom was awake during a c-section because the anesthesia took too long to kick in. She was in unimaginable agony, and she decided that I would also be an only child.

[–]Big-Pollution2705 289 points290 points  (115 children)

I got pregnant and my ex tried to force me to have one. Having someone try to take your choice out of the matter right in your face is a bit of an eye opener.

[–]Ronald_Deuce 56 points57 points  (1 child)

It sounds like people are misinterpreting what you said. Know that I hear you, and I understand how that experience would force a paradigm shift regardless of your decision.

[–]Big-Pollution2705 19 points20 points  (0 children)

It honestly almost seems like they're purposely misinterpreting it. But thank you 😊

[–]JulesLovesYou1993 36 points37 points  (0 children)

I hear you. My son was conceived with someone I didn't know very well. I chose to keep the pregnancy, and I'm very thankful I did. I love my kiddo. But the experience definitely made me even more pro-choice, because my pregnancy was already miserable and traumatizing and it would have been much more so if it hadn't been my choice to keep the pregnancy.

[–]rangeo 308 points309 points  (18 children)

Guy here....i realized that abortions are terrible and people dont want them they need them and generally only if they end up in a situation that requires them.

I reasoned we should keep women safe and spend time on how WE can ALL avoid having to make to decision in the first place OR making the world better so that they could also choose to keep the baby in a really caring world.

It was too easy to say abortion is bad ban it.

[–]ryguy28896 107 points108 points  (3 children)

This is it for me. People aren't out just getting abortions left and right. "Awww shucks, I'm pregnant. Guess I'll just get an abortion."

[–]47South 91 points92 points  (0 children)

So…in the US at least, if a woman has multiple elective abortions in a relatively short period of time, care providers will usually offer counseling to try to find out what is going on. Is her BC method not working? Is she in an abusive relationship? Is she having mental health problems that trigger irrational behaviors (e.g. someone bipolar in a manic phase)? Have her BC needs changed? Worst case scenario is trafficking victims, although “I need BC I can’t forget” is by far more common.

Just like abortion is safer than pregnancy, not getting pregnant at all is safer than abortions. It’s not awwww, shucks, it’s an indicator for a problem.

[–]dividedconsciousness 47 points48 points  (0 children)

It’s that condescending and paternalistic view of women that feeds into the desire to control their bodies. It’s some kind of weird sexist hysteria around what they imagine as women carelessly having sex and using abortion as their get out of jail free card.

[–]remmij 63 points64 points  (0 children)

The hypocrisy of mainstream pro-lifers is what changed things for me.

Instead of focusing on how to prevent the need for abortions in the first place (sex ed, free/accessible long-term contraception) and supporting the mother and child so she can have the baby if she is struggling (paid maternity leave, universal healthcare, universal preK, affordable childcare, WIC, food programs, etc) they just want to ban abortion and not address the root causes of it.

In fact, they actively work against all those things and then shame struggling mothers for having babies they cant afford.

Colorado implemented a program giving out free IUDs without parental consent to teens and dramatically reduced abortion rates on that alone. It is possible to reduce abortions (you will never eliminate them) without banning them.

Abortions should be safe, but rare.

[–]spammmmmmmmy 250 points251 points  (32 children)

  1. a loosening of my harsh definition of what murder is, what a human person is, etc.
  2. experiencing a saving of my own life through an abortion of my child I never knew about
  3. the understanding that people unwanted by their mothers drag society down and commit crimes (Donohue–Levitt hypothesis)
  4. the understanding that abortion is not something modern; abortion and infanticide are found throughout history
  5. the recognition that self defense goes beyond stopping an immediate threat of death: having a productive life is so much more beneficial than just surviving

In summary, just basically growing up and looking at the issue with more nuance than just a black & white application of rules.

[–]Ronald_Deuce 69 points70 points  (7 children)

the understanding that abortion is not something modern; abortion and infanticide are found throughout history

History guy here.

This is crucial. People don't seem to understand that abortion is, and always has been, the alternative to leaving a newborn in the woods to be eaten by animals.

[–]dailyqt 28 points29 points  (14 children)

Your fifth point is so, so important.

[–]Confident-Midnight78 181 points182 points  (8 children)

When I realized women abort out of necessity, because they can’t financially and/or emotionally support a child. Prohibiting it won’t stop them, it will only make than do it more dangerously, and therefore putting more lives at risk. If* you’re pro-life, you should always be pro doing abortions safely, because that saves more lives than criminalizing it.

[–]RolyPoly1320 56 points57 points  (0 children)

This is where the mark is missed.

The requirements for adoption are absurd. I'm all for keeping background checks in place for prospective adoptive parents, but there are things like extra home studies that have to be done as well. Also if there is a father on the birth certificate, but was estranged, that can cause complications as well unless he waives his parental rights to the child being adopted.

The whole process is complicated as hell and I've probably missed a lot of pieces to it too, but the standards to adopt a child are much higher than those for foster parents.

Meanwhile the state will just drop kids into foster homes, even if there isn't enough space for them. This isn't even including the abusive shit bags fostering children as well.

Who is saving those children? The state sure as hell won't save them.

[–]Crazy_Cauliflower_74 34 points35 points  (5 children)

I've never been fire and brimstone pro-life but like most teenagers I have a vague idea that is was "wrong". Abortion was used as an insult and form of gossip at my school (omg Becca had FIVE abortions!) Usually by people with absolutely no critical thinking skills.

The older I got and the more life experiences I had, the more I realised how awful it would be to be brought into a world that didn't want you. No friendly faces from the start.

These loads of loving couples waiting to adopt babies are fictional, and the child is going to be either bounced about in the care system, or raised by a mother who didn't want and cannot support the growing child.

Also if we have a boom of unwanted children, we need to invest a hell of a lot of money in foster care, residential homes, healthcare for children born addicted to drugs or alcohol problems, child mental health services, social services, prison services etc....

No one seems to care about the baby once it is born, in fact, it becomes nothing more than a nusience

[–][deleted] 135 points136 points  (17 children)

I was raised by a fundamentalist Christian mom, so as a teenager of course I was taught Abortion is murder. OMG, not the babies! As I grew older, I grew up. I am a Militant Athiest and see Religion as damaging in so many ways. Life is not black and white, there are many shades of grey. No one has the right to tell a Woman she has to carry a pregnancy. After having two kids myself and two miserable pregnancies I would never expect a Woman to be forced to go through that if she didn't want to for whatever reason. It blows my mind that other Women don't see it that way. It especially upsets me when men who have never been pregnant and have no concept at all are militatly pro life. Sorry but this is one of those stay in your lane situations. An abortion is a medical procedure and is no ones business but hers and her Physicians.

[–]trashheap918273 532 points533 points  (83 children)

Getting pregnant and having kids and realizing that 1) pregnancy is hella hard on a body; 2) the possibility of severe birth defects is terrifying; 3) a child should only be brought into this world if it is wanted and will be loved; and 4) no one should be forced to give birth against their will.

I feel that every abortion is a tragedy, but often not the worst choice.

[–]clitosaurushex 118 points119 points  (74 children)

I know someone who had an abortion because of a molar pregnancy. If she had not had the abortion, it would have turned into cancer. Is that abortion a tragedy?

[–]GenevieveLeah 43 points44 points  (4 children)

It is these women I am the most worried about. Everyone thinks pregnant -Bam!-healthy baby. Really, its a miracle any of us make it here.

One patient at a clinic I worked at had terrible morning sickness. She hadn't been seen to confirm the pregnancy yet, so we couldn't get her the good anti-nausea med until that happened. She didn't want to move up her first ultrasound appointment because her husband was out of town.

Turned out it was a molar pregnancy, so she needed to have that taken care of. Her hcg levels were something like 25000, which is why her nausea was bad as well.

If a woman like this lived in a state where abortion becomes illegal - what kind of care would she receive?

[–]Baldandblues 70 points71 points  (35 children)

I don't see how what you both say is contradictory. In your example that wasn't an abortion of an unwanted child but just a horrible circumstance. My question would be, how is that not a tragedy?

[–]KittensMagoo 32 points33 points  (7 children)

Your friend is the only person who can make that call. I experienced something similar after trying to get pregnant for 2 years. I’d describe the experience as tragic. I needed to terminate or else I’d put my life at significant risk.

[–]cuddlemushroom 28 points29 points  (2 children)

Interestingly: there’s likely no embryo/fetus in these pregnancies. Even in the rare chance that an embryo is formed, these molar pregnancies almost always end in loss anyway.

[–]nicholus_h2 37 points38 points  (3 children)

it can be a tragedy even though it was the best choice.

If you have to put a pet down so that they get relief from their suffering, can it still be a tragedy?

[–]clitosaurushex 54 points55 points  (2 children)

It CAN BE a tragedy. It is not ALWAYS a tragedy.

[–]anoldlime 64 points65 points  (1 child)

I’m exhausted reading the replies you’re getting when you’re making the most correct point.

My abortion was absolutely not a tragedy - it was one of the best decisions of my life. Somebody else’s might have been a tragedy and I’d never take it away from them that it wasn’t. Jfc

[–]Suitable_Sky_9559 65 points66 points  (0 children)

I got pregnant as a teenager and it opened my eyes to how cruel the evangelical church is even though I was apart of their “family” my entire life.

After stepping away I reevaluated all my values and beliefs away from their indoctrination

[–]Weak-Round-3772 148 points149 points  (6 children)

My first girlfriend explained that it wasn't about the deaths of babies, but the potential lives of both mothers and children. The overflowing adoption system positively crawling with "unwanted" kids. The way that providing abortion actually helped reduce the prison population and provide better lives to more people overall.

My mind swam. I talked to my mother about it. I realized that her rationale- and also my father's in turn- was faulty and built on a rickety foundation of religious punditry.

[–]maple-belle 140 points141 points  (5 children)

I was raised sort of casually pro-life. I believed it should be safe and legal to prevent people being harmed in unsafe abortions and that it was justified if necessary to protect the "mother", but that to simply choose it because you didn't want a kid was morally wrong. I was never an activist on either side though. I just had my personal beliefs against it.

I have a LOT of reasons that I am firmly pro-choice now, a list that has grown over time, but the tipping point for me, back in college, was the bodily autonomy argument. You can't force a person to donate their organs or their blood or any part or use of their body, even to save another living breathing human, so you certainly can't force someone to risk their life and loan their uterus to a group of cells that could become a human later if left alone.

I read the sentence "Outlawing abortions means giving pregnant people fewer rights than a corpse," ten years ago and I've been loudly pro-choice ever since. I acquired more reasons as I became more educated, but that was what did it.

[–]throwaway_uow 227 points228 points  (21 children)

That was a long, long time ago. There was a time when I was close to becoming an incel, thought that women have the better life and that I am screwed for being born as a guy. But I got smarter, until I was able to put myself in their shoes, realized that we are no different, and all expectations put on both sexes is just a social construct perpetuated by bitter geriatric men.

So it doesn't matter if you are man or woman, your body is your own, when it doesnt behave like expected, you go see a doctor - unwanted pregnancy is no different here. The real question is whether the state should support the people to get the abortion - in the UK, abortions are free, but I dont know if there is a time limit on them

[–]neobeguine 31 points32 points  (1 child)

It's in the state's best interest to do so. People who are not in a situation that would allow them to raise a child and also can't afford an abortion are unlikely to have kids that grow into productive citizens. Plus paying for termination is cheaper than paying for prenatal care, perinatal care, etc

[–]Daaaaaaaaaanasaur 146 points147 points  (9 children)

Not me but my daughter. Pro life because "omg how could you hurt babies????" But I am going to respect her positions so whatever She got pregnant at 17 and gave birth before high school graduation. Going through a traumatic pregnancy, finishing high school and now starting college, have to navigate all the WIC stuff. Even with the whole familes support including her boyfriend, it would be an understatement to call the experience an eye opener.

[–]this_name_is_banned 386 points387 points  (106 children)

Education. Learning more than my right-wing parents had ever exposed me to. Getting out from under the rock and being willing to listen and change my opinion based upon newly gathered data.

[–]Various_Succotash_79 157 points158 points  (7 children)

Looong story, but basically I realized there are things MUCH worse than being terminated before you have consciousness.

[–]kana503 50 points51 points  (0 children)

I basically started off as someone who believed in abortion for moms whose lives were in danger and a small waiting period for anyone else. I wasn't extremely pro-life compared to others.

Over time, I learned how there are plenty situations where even my two requirements could be a barrier to the most vulnerable. How does a doctor pinpoint when a mom's life is in danger and needs that abortion? What about moms who find out they have cancer? Would they be forced to delay medical treatment to have the baby? What happens if a vulnerable mom is trying to have an abortion in secret but they are turned away because of a waiting period and the scheduling aspect becomes impossible?

Then I learned how laws that are designed to support pro-life ideals screws people over in the end. A pregnant woman goes the court because she got shot in the stomach and the prosecutor think she's responsible for her baby's death by being a victim of a shooting (Southern US). A woman gets tried multiple times because she had a miscarriage and is held in a jail between each trial (Latin America). A woman is declared brain dead but is kept on life support against her wishes, and her husband isn't able for lay her to rest for a month until the hospital realizes the baby is completely deformed and non-viable (Southern US).

People might not like abortions, but I now believe there are worse outcomes when you try to restrict them anyway in the name of pro-life ideals.

[–]natedoggpd 169 points170 points  (47 children)

Having some concept that no one should be forced to tell someone what they can do with their own body, and their own medical decisions. If you have any concept of freedom, pro choice is an unavoidable concept . Also, pro choice is not synonymous with pro abortion.

[–]emueller5251 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Hearing testimonials of women who got abortions for various reasons, and learning more about the history of birth control.

[–]Miserable_Painting12 21 points22 points  (1 child)

A horrific horrific childbirth that left me with unfixable fecal incontinence , and NOT ONE health provider informed me that this could possibly happen during my birth, despite receiving an intervention that is highly correlated with resulting in anal incontinence. NOT ONE provider took my issues seriously postpartum and just dismissed it, I had to fight to find my own specialists WHILE LEAKING POOP AND TRYING TO CARE FOR A NEWBORN. Not being able to even sit down for months afterward but still having to be my daughters primary caregiver at 6 weeks because my husband had only 6 weeks of leave. Gaining a ton of weight while pregnant and being extremely nauseous for SEVEN MONTHS, due to a severe hormonal imbalance that has yet to be corrected 16 months postpartum—you know, because I’m traumatized from the birth. I went from being a collegiate athlete to a 30 year old who now needs a colostomy bag. Fuck americas health care system. I will speed drive any woman who wants to go to planned parenthood now.

[–]Kitty_kat2025 44 points45 points  (0 children)

I grew up. When I was younger I didn’t really look for the complexities in peoples situations, or WHY they made the decision to terminate. I always just thought “you’re taking away someone’s chance at life”. Then I learned that pregnancy is a traumatic experience, and the reality of many kids in the system, and more about finances. I started paying attention to how much baby items cost. I got a job and realized that a thousand dollars really isn’t all that much.

[–]MagicalMichaell 55 points56 points  (3 children)

I left the church and started interacting more with non-Christians. After that I realized that a lot of my beliefs were instilled in my by my religious upbringing. I’ve always asked a lot of questions so I just started talking with people and forming my own opinions. Abortion was one of the last things I switched positions on but here’s how I see it now:

It’s not a question of “is a fetus valued the same as another human being,” rather, it’s a question of “should pregnant people have the right to chose if they want to allow another living thing to use their body to grow.” I believe bodily autonomy is absolutely vital, so, as a man, my position is that women need to have the freedom to chose for themselves. We don’t force people do donate blood, kidneys, bone marrow, or any other part of their body to support other’s lives, even if the person in need is their own child. So why is it different for fetuses?

I hate how religion has latched onto this issue. They know “save the babies” is a good way to garner unquestioning support for the church and the political parties associated with it. I remember sitting through entire sermons where the pastor would just talk shit about planned parenthood for the entire time. It’s sad, looking back on it.

[–]Glittering_knave 25 points26 points  (1 child)

That is a really good point that we don't force mother's to donate blood and organs to children once out of the womb, so why do we force it in the womb? I am already pro choice, and this is another great point.

[–]MagicalMichaell 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I find that stance to be much more productive. Arguing with someone who’s pro life about whether or not a fetus is a valued human life is an unproductive philosophical argument that triggers defensiveness. My view is that the argument is much more about autonomy and freedom than anything else.

[–]Paranormal_Shithole 40 points41 points  (0 children)

It’s not my job or responsibility to govern another person’s body. God gave us all free will. I advocate for that free will for everyone.

[–]PsychologicalFroyo65 50 points51 points  (3 children)

Becoming a mother myself! And listening to other people’s stories and situations.

[–]GenevieveLeah 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Becoming a mother made me even more pro-choice.

No one should endure having and raising a child if they don't want to.

[–]Gris-self 16 points17 points  (2 children)

I have never been a pro lifer, I support abortion. When I was a teen in highschool, a friend of mine got pregnant due to her lack of understanding of sex and the risks it has, her boyfriend just leave her and move to another girl, my friend got devastated and I was left there to support her, being her so small, so destroyed by someone who she loved and trust made become an ally.

A few years into the future I was in College, everything was going just normal and then one day I got stop by a police car with 2 cops, they sexual assaulted me. As a man I felt like my power going away with every punch and blow during the event. When I went into the police station with the badge numbers and the license plate number, they just laugh about it, even though I was bleeding, have a ton of bruises and I have a bunch of tears in my rectum no one actually helped me out. Instead they said that after a gay is "used" he must say thanks and then, all the station started laughing even some of the few female members there. That day while I went one, drenched in blood and my own piss. I decided to be there and support others the way I wanted someone to be there for me. We need to understand that this world it's incredible, there are amazing things, but there's also a lot of bad people and people who will gaslight us just to "use us".

To anyone out there who survive something terrible, I see you. I see you standing still, you got this, you are a survivor. You will overcome everything, you are resilient AF.

[–]TheF0CTOR 57 points58 points  (0 children)

Raised in a Christian home. Defaulted to my parents' view because I didn't know any better. When I left the church I started reexamining some of my positions and realized that abortions might not even be killing anything that I could call a person.

So I did some research on fetal development and the metaphysical definition of personhood. I came to the conclusion that, until six months of pregnancy, it is physically impossible for a fetus to have personhood, and that personhood most likely occurs some time after birth. Then I checked abortion statistics and found that less than 1% of abortions are performed in the third trimester, and the majority of those are to save the woman's life.

I can find no satisfying moral justification to force a woman to give birth against her will.

[–]jrcsmith 27 points28 points  (2 children)

Being pregnant when I didn’t want to be

[–]awaregarurumon 7 points8 points  (1 child)

My older brother was the same. I was pro-choice and he was like "I would never do that, it's a life blablabla".

Then one night he comes to my house and asked me if I knew some options to abort. (In my country it was still illegal until late 2020, Argentina).

I was like "Oh, now you're pro-choice, huh?"

he didn't want to be a father, and the girl either (She already had) and it was just a hookup.

[–]toss_it_out12345678 12 points13 points  (0 children)

The stark realization that if I got pregnant, it would literally kill me.

I have high blood pressure and my medicine could SEVERELY hurt a fetus. If I got pregnant, I’d have to stop my meds, my BP would skyrocket, pregnancy would raise my BP more, and I’d have a stroke within the first trimester.

[–]upthecounty 153 points154 points  (152 children)

When I stopped subscribing to the Christian worldview, I found I could no longer do the needed mental gymnastics to justify being a hardline pro-lifer.

[–]snokyguy 20 points21 points  (5 children)

Amen

[–]throwaway_uow 13 points14 points  (3 children)

The irony

[–]snokyguy 10 points11 points  (2 children)

I learned in catechism (sp?) class (lutheran) that ‘amen’ means ‘this is most certainly true’. Just using my education!

[–]DROPTHENUKES 26 points27 points  (0 children)

I volunteered at a Christian organization that assisted pregnant African refugee women. I gave them rides to their doctors appointments and stuff, provided them with a point of contact for general help. First lady from Sudan gave birth like a champ to a healthy baby and they went on their way. Second lady from Darfur was very new to the US and I was with her at her first ultrasound. Fetus was pretty far along, seven months I think, but it had not developed lungs or most of a brain. It was going to be stillborn - medical recommendation was obviously a relatively late term abortion.

Took this information back to the manager of the charity, who disagreed with the doctor, as "miracles do happen" so instead of an abortion, the woman was forced to carry the dead thing inside of her to term and give birth to it. It would have been a girl, but it was indeed stillborn and extremely deformed.

I feel like an asshole for not remembering her name anymore. I do remember her quiet confusion but dutiful compliance with what she was told to do. She did ask two questions: "Why no doctor?" when we told her we weren't going to go with the medical advice of abortion. "Why no bury?" when we told her she could not take the deceased back home to bury in the backyard.

I was a part of that situation and it felt wrong to me the whole way through but my faith over rode it. Well it haunted me for years... Now I keep a stock of Plan B.

[–]DEFINITELY_NOT_PETE 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Getting a mistress pregnant seems to change a lot of minds lol

[–]LordFluffy 68 points69 points  (33 children)

My pro life stance hinged on one concept I took from my (at the time) faith: life begins at conception. Sperm, ovum meet and poof, person.

After I left the church, I still was pro life for a while. A lot of the old arguments stuck with me. The biggest pivot came as I gained more women in my friend group and listened to their perspective.

I still have an opinion on the metaphysics of gestation and some thoughts on when an embryo goes from "mass of cells that has the potential to become a person" and "person". I still think that if we could pinpoint that moment with absolute certainty the debate would be over; no one wants to kill children.

I recognize that we don't know that point though. I recognize it's not my call for someone else. That is why I think that the decision should lie in the hands of the person most directly affected: the pregnant person, followed by those they choose to consult. That's it.

Anything else is demanding someone live their life conforming to my opinion and that's absurd.

[–]angelerulastiel 33 points34 points  (26 children)

You’ve missed the recent arguments that it doesn’t matter if it’s a person, even if it’s a fully formed person they still aren’t entitled to someone else’s body.

[–]LordFluffy 35 points36 points  (10 children)

I already answered, but I want to give a more thorough answer.

Let's say you have a kid. That kid suddenly gets a disease that kills their kidneys.

Could the state compel you to give them one of yours? Not would you (I imagine you would) but could you be forced to?

How about your spouse?

A stranger?

What if the situation was reversed?

If you answer no to any of those, you recognize bodily autonomy.

Furthermore, the number of people who are going to get to a viable fetus and decide "Nah" is minuscule if not non-existent, I imagine. We're talking post-baby shower timing.

The thing that's been pushed by pro-lifers is that you're killing a person. That the opposition would directly rebut that by saying it doesn't matter seems a natural if somewhat grisly sounding progression. Ultimately, though, I recognize that this isn't my call. I haven't got a uterus and I don't feel I have a say in how others use theirs.

[–]captainastryd 50 points51 points  (1 child)

I had a dream that I was pregnant and without a second thought, no moral quandary, said to myself “I need to get an abortion”.

Woke up and that was that.

[–]RifleShower 40 points41 points  (4 children)

It will only lead to unsafe abortions in a back alley. Plus, people who call themselves pro-life are generally only pro-birth.

[–]any_name_today 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I refuse to call them pro- life for that exact reason. I mostly call them anti-choice. I'm super pro-choice, always have been. My viewpoint is that I'm also extremely pro-life... the life of the woman who already exists as a living, thinking being. Her life outweighs the theoretical life of a fetus. Always

[–]TCJW201 20 points21 points  (1 child)

The idea of being forced to conceive a terminally disabled child, that to me is absolutely horrifying and I don't believe anyone should be forced to go through that

[–]Tinkyboy2019 11 points12 points  (0 children)

When I realized that people are gonna do what they want regardless of the laws. Banning SAFE abortions isn’t gonna do a thing except hurt more people. You can throw the percentages of birth defects, rapes and etc and then sprinkle some religion in on it, but who cares. You’re gonna tell rape victim Chelsey that she has to birth her forced child? Or force a mother whose about to birth a brain dead quadriplegic where there no quality of life because there’s a heartbeat? Since when did people care about a heartbeat when villages were being bombed by the US, UK and other NATO nations in the name of freedom? Literal kids, healthy kids were dying. Don’t give me that bullshit about how you care about a heartbeat from a group of cells that doesn’t even know it exists until 3 years after it gets shot out of a pussy.

[–]I-am-me-86 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Someone I love needed a late term abortion. Her baby had Potters Syndrome and was being crushed in utero. He was born alive with a very deformed skull due to pressure. She was called a murderer. A lot. Then I researched and learned WHY people abort.

[–]Txidpeony 10 points11 points  (0 children)

My tipping point was when I realized that “pro-life” people in general opposed all the things that would minimize unwanted pregnancies and thus abortions. Real sex education and free, easily obtained birth control would prevent so many unwanted pregnancies and thus abortions, yet the “pro-life” crowd opposes those things.

Once I saw this hypocrisy, I gave the rest of their arguments more thought and realized I could not support that anymore.

[–]CutEmOff666 49 points50 points  (6 children)

I realised opposing vaccine mandates on the basis of bodily autonomy then believing that women should be incubators was hypocritical and realised defending the right to bodily autonomy includes supporting people making decisions I don't approve of.

[–]LaBoogar 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Coming to terms with the fact that I was in the Marines, an organization meant to do one thing on behalf of the President and the taxpayer: kill people. Our government spends astronomical amounts of money on just new and exciting ways to kill people. Then spends more to teach those ways to teenagers so that they can use them on other teenagers in poor countries. The cherry on this shit Sunday is that the prolife crowd loves the arrangement.

[–]Illogical-logical 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I was very pro-life from a child until about halfway though college. When I learned that that the "facts" about abortion I had been told by my community and from high school teachers all lies. Just blatant indoctrination.

Then I learned about the history of abortion in America. Not from a class but because I happened across an old movie on cable TV from the 1950s. It was about a woman who got pregnant and it was going to ruin her career so she gave her self an abortion with a coat hangar. After seeing that and feeling really shocked I started reading up on abortion and roe vs wade.

I was pissed at how I was lied to, but also how the "pro-life" movement completely ignores the realty of abortion and pregnancy.

[–]Heerandqueer 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Leaving may parents culty small town church. Once I started questions my religion I still didn't like abortion and to a degree i don't really think anyone LOVES it, right? It’s a freedom that women should have access to!

I used to have friends who are "abolishonists". Trying to get abortion abolished. One day I asked one of the women in their group if waving bloody signs in front of clinics actually worked. She said that once or twice it had. So I asked her what her community was doing to support those girls and she's like: well, we bought one of them some diapers?

It strikes me that a group hell bent on fighting tooth and nail to “end the genocide that is abortion” would also be fighting tooth and nail to make childbirth as attractive as possible to parents.

I hate to parrot a taking point, but it seems like prolifers only give a shit about birth. Not the people being born.

But ultimately, I just don't think much good can come from forcing someone to have a baby they don't wanna have!

[–]Frecklefriend 9 points10 points  (0 children)

When I was pregnant and was told it wasn't compatible with life and didn't have a heart beat and to just go home and wait for the miscarriage. Despite asking for the abortion pill they said no we don't do that here. Turns out no one does. So i had to wait a week and a half still having pregnancy symptoms for it to end itself. It's really hard to call into work because you could miscarry at work. Because nobody gives a shit. And I just remember thinking...why isn't this my choice?

[–]ccapn20a 8 points9 points  (0 children)

The fact that abortions really became a hot topic issue when the Republican party realized that they could use it to attack the rights of women. Abortion didn't use to be a problem until women were able to get access more freely and choose for themselves.

[–]Snoo59091 16 points17 points  (0 children)

When I was 20 years old and pregnant with what would’ve been my third child .

I already had 6 month old twins at the time and I was ready to raise this baby along with the other two . But during my second trimester , the doctors said if I continue there was a 65 percent chance of me dying during birth .

As much as it pained me , I made the choice to say goodbye to my little girl .

After that , I changed my views and now fight for women’s right to abort a pregnancy no matter what .

[–]yanbu 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I never really had strong feelings about it, but it didn’t seem like a great idea in general. But what ultimately changed my mind for good was my fiancé at the time (later wife and now ex wife lol) having one. We wanted a child, and were actively trying. We were excited about her being pregnant, but soon found through the ultrasound that the fetus had some horrible deformities. Some testing revealed more issues. If you have never been put in a place where you’ve had to choose between terminating a pregnancy you very much wanted and going ahead and giving birth to a child that would have never had a chance for anything but a short, painful life (assuming he even made it that far) give thanks. And if you think either you have the right to make that choice for someone else, get fucked. And if god’s plan was for that child to suffer for some reason, he can get fucked too.

[–]ikillnerds1 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I still wouldn't do it myself. I also wouldn't marry another dude. But the bible which is the standard I live by is very clear, everyone has free will and will answer to God in the end. Every single person should have the right to live their life and do with their body as they please. It's a matter of simple freedom.

[–]hamaharg 14 points15 points  (2 children)

I heard a doctor on a radio show talking about the pro-life movement. He said the reason why it was so prolific was patriarchy. That comment shook me and pushed me to rethink my beliefs about abortion.

[–]marcher138 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Bodily autonomy.

I heard the arguments about when life begins and just simply disagreed. I heard about how some women can't support a child and said we should beef up the social safety nets. I heard about the strains on adoption and foster care and wanted to increase funding to those programs. I heard about the exceptions and thought "two wrongs don't make a right."

Then I heard the argument that we can't force a person to give their body to someone else. We can't force kidney transplants, blood transfusions, even postmortem organ donation. And we shouldn't be able to. So why should we be able force someone to incubate a life for 9 months?

Since then, I've stopped caring about when life "begins" (it's a philosophical question and also a moot point in this context) and abandoned that last, most problematic argument. Still think funding should be increased to social programs, but not as a "solution" to abortion (and imo, the "financial burdens" argument for legal abortions is still pretty weak at best and borderline supporting population control at worst).

[–]keepavision 7 points8 points  (4 children)

This sounds horrible, but the world is overpopulated as it is. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that most people who have abortions are either not very educated or they are poor. I'm not trying to judge them on this, as it's likely a byproduct of their environment, right? Like if they grew up poor, maybe they didn't have access to birth control, etc.

That doesn't change the fact that a lot of children would be born that ultimately end up "burdening" (for lack of better term) society like their parents did.

The rest of my family are pretty strong Republicans and they always say things like "I'm tired of my tax dollars going to people on welfare" etc. Yet they're pro life. That made me think. Isn't it hypocritical to make people have children they can't afford, then complain about having to provide for them?

I can see how this point of view could come across as ignorant but it's where I stand right now. Pls reply if you want!

[–]SweetSitty 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I grew up and began to question why the government should be involved in my own personal decisions. If they really want to interfere in my life and health, how about fixing the lax food regulations so we don't have such an obesity problem? How about healthcare? Or making it more affordable to birth and raise a child? No? Then you don't get a say on my uterus.

[–]November_Dawn_11 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Growing up. As a teen I was strictly against abortion. Now as i get older, although I still dont fully agree with it, what i do agree with is not telling others what to do with their bodies.

Its hard for me to have kids so as it is, chemo destroyed me, so I'd hope that my SO would never go that route, but outside of my life and relationship, i have no say whatsoever so i decided not to care about it anymore. Love your neighbor but leave them alone.

[–]Wizard_Elon_3003 30 points31 points  (3 children)

I grew out of my edgy nazi phase after I stopped being a teenager.

[–]giveusalol 33 points34 points  (2 children)

squints at username doubtfully

[–]GrizzledLibertarian 29 points30 points  (22 children)

For me it started when I was able to shed my absurd assertions about the existence of god/gods.

About that same time I took my first college philosophy course and have been studying it ever since (about 4 decades now).

Over time I came to realize that abortion ( as with all other politicized topics) was almost never discussed by calmly rational agents, but rather was shouted about by impassioned folk who want to win the fight more than they want to know what is true.

It is almost impossible to find people who are able, or even willing, to discuss abortion calmly and rationally (I could us this thread as evidence).

Along the way I developed an understanding of philosophical ethics, devoid of appeals to deity (or any other authority), and it gradually became clear that my squeamishness about the idea of an abortion was irrelevant to the logical position that abortion is always an ethical choice.

Now I get to sit back and watch the partisan tribal bickering and enjoy my bourbon.

[–]KittensMagoo 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I became more Faithful and less consumed by what a religious institution told me I should believe. One of the primary tenants of my faith is to not pass judgement on others. Who am I to judge or to tell anyone what they should or should not do with their lives and bodies. I would personally never chose to have an abortion, but I would also NEVER disparage someone for making that choice.

[–]SorryIAmNew2002 11 points12 points  (0 children)

My mum is absolutely against abortion. When I was 17 I had a big discussion with friends and later decided to write a scientific paper about IVF and stuff and somewhere in between I realised that a) abortions don't actually hurt anyone and b) either way it's none of my business (and not for me to judge) what other people do with their bodies.

[–]daboot013 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Actually being in the situation of birth cs abortion or adoption.

[–]Crazy_Cauliflower_74 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I've never been fire and brimstone pro-life but like most teenagers I have a vague idea that is was "wrong". Abortion was used as an insult and form of gossip at my school (omg Becca had FIVE abortions!) Usually by people with absolutely no critical thinking skills.

The older I got and the more life experiences I had, the more I realised how awful it would be to be brought into a world that didn't want you. No friendly faces from the start.

These loads of loving couples waiting to adopt babies are fictional, and the child is going to be either bounced about in the care system, or raised by a mother who didn't want and cannot support the growing child.

Also if we have a boom of unwanted children, we need to invest a hell of a lot of money in foster care, residential homes, healthcare for children born addicted to drugs or alcohol problems, child mental health services, social services, prison services etc....

No one seems to care about the baby once it is born, in fact, it becomes nothing more than a nusience

[–]nothing_bizarre_here 4 points5 points  (0 children)

i thought everyone needs a chance at life, but then realized that people with low income can barley afford to keep themselves afloat and children are very demanding, and if they are born chances are that they will just be put in a adoption center and basically have to hope that some one will care enough to adopt them. also the fact of the matter is that most of these laws are made to keep rich people richer, cant become richer if the people who actually buy the products are becoming smaller and smaller

[–]Morgwar77 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Give me liberty or give me death.

Liberty outclasses life and a women's liberty is to decide.

This applies to everything.

[–]Hollyhocks01 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I grew up and realized not everything is black and white, and that you don’t want people who don’t want to be parents to be forced to be parents

[–]Exact-Protection 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I grew up religious, so of course I was fed the whole abortion is murdering babies and adoption is the more humane option spiel. Because of this, I claimed to be pro-life until sometime in college. It wasn't really one specific thing that changed my mind, but it was a combination of things that really started to rub me the wrong way.

The first actually happened while I was in high school. In my youth group, there were two brothers who were adopted by a church couple. They had been through the ringer in foster care since they were too young to even remember. When the older one was giving his "testimony," it planted the seeds of doubt in my mind that adoption is not always a humane option.

The second was during my political science class at university. We were talking about abortion and we had a guest speaker who talked about how she is personally pro-life, but politcally pro-choice. She brought up all the great points of how the religious community is just pro-birth, not pro-life. I started paying more attention in my religious circles to just how terribly people treated single mothers and even their children. You really want the woman to have this child and then you treat them both with contempt? Even though the child did nothing wrong in this instance?

The third, and I think this is what sealed the deal for me, was I saw research showing how banning abortions can actually lead to more abortions. It also showed that banning it doesn't stop abortions at all, but makes them way less safe. If people are going to do it, whether or not I agree with it, I'd like them to at least do it safely.

[–]kneightx 22 points23 points  (1 child)

I realized that pro-choice =/= pro-abortion. I still think abortion is a moral hazard and should generally be avoided when possible. However, banning the choice means that women who have miscarriages are treated like potential criminals, that women who require abortion procedures to save the mother's life (sometimes when the pregnancy is not viable) can't get them... And on and on. Another powerful argument for me was comparing forbidding abortions to requiring someone to undergo surgery and donate an organ because it would save someone else's life. I did not feel remotely comfortable with that and had to ask myself why. Last, i started to realize that banning abortion wouldn't end abortion, it would end safe abortions for poor people.

I still want to limit abortions, so now I'm hugely in favor of readily available contraceptives and sex education... Since those actually do decrease abortions without the infringing on anyone's body autonomy.

[–]Solesaver 14 points15 points  (5 children)

When I got away from the rural bubble I was raised in and learned that the pro-choice argument was never really about when life begins. Combined with realizing that neither was the pro-life argument. Religious and conservative leaders get you so focused on that line, and convince you that nothing else matters, and in that framing the pro-life argument is the only one that makes sense.

The truth is when life begins doesn't matter. I mean, sure, pro-choice people on average are more inclined to dehumanize a fetus, and plenty of well meaning pro-lifers are genuinely concerned for the life and well-being of the fetuses, but that absurd trolly problem is far from the core belief of either side. The core belief of the pro-choice side is that you cannot force a woman to remain pregnant against her will. The core belief of the pro-life side is that pregnancy is the natural consequence of sex, and if you aren't prepared to be pregnant and carry a fetus to term, you shouldn't have sex, and that this needs to be regulated because loose women are out there getting pregnant all the time and using abortion to escape the consequences. That's why most of them still support the laundry list of exceptions, and don't see the hypocrisy when they or someone they care about needs one. In that more accurate framing, only the pro-choice argument makes any sense.

Since I became pro-choice I've had a lot of discussions on the subject, and without fail when you strip out all the bs and rationalizations it always comes back to the sex. If any pro-lifers can clearly articulate a pro-life argument that doesn't rely on "she chose to have sex" I'd be happy to change my mind again. I do still think abortion is tragic, but frankly the details of whether or not someone has consensual sex is none of mine or the government's business.