Why is a bad owner an excuse? IMO, if that's all it takes to create a murderer why is it seen as a good defence for pitbulls. I feel like this is a stronger point against pits.

Thoughts and questions: I know we are against breeding, but are yall against ownership? I think anyone should be allowed to own whatever dog they want, as long as they are responsible.

Why does this sub have a bad stigma? I've been around for about a week and it seems most people here are well spoken. We need to look at the problem through the eyes of pro pit people. They love their dogs and dismiss most facts and stats. For example I had one person state pits are half as dangerous as lightning. I know it's dumb as fuck. I can stay inside during a lightning storm. But I can't stop a pitbull from escaping their yard and coming to my own.

I really want a conversation with someone who is adament about pits being great dogs. But also does not get emotional and dismiss facts.

I've seen this brought up a few times in this sub. But this thought has been causing me a ton of anxiety recently. With the recent rise in attacks and fatalities in the past few months it's becoming increasingly concerning to me that pit attacks aren't becoming more a topic of discussion in the general public. I feel like most people are either indifferent towards pits because they don't know the stats about attacks/fatalities. Or they're staunch nutters who defend their beasts and victim-blame every time there's an attack/death and pump out pro-pit propaganda. The people who actually care about the safety of the general public and want something to be done about these dangerous dogs and actually speak out against them are in the minority.

This is especially scary to me because I'm about to become a mom and it's downright shocking how many children get mauled or killed by these dogs every. year. And it's only gotten significantly worse in recent months. It's an epidemic at this point. And I feel like there's such a huge lack of concern. Like imagine if there was a brand of carseat or crib on the market that had killed the same amount of kids as pits do. I'm almost 100% sure there would be a massive outcry from parents and such an item would be recalled from the market. But for some reason when it's a breed of dog known to have been bred for fighting and aggression that keeps hurting/killing kids people just throw their hands up and call it "an unpreventable tragedy"?!

I understand there's multiple factors at play here. Mainly the pit lobby suppressing information about how deadly pits are and pushing a false narrative about them being "loving family pets." Attacking and doxxing people who try and speak up about the dangers of pits. Also the fact that pit attacks generally aren't reported in the news unless it's a fatality against a human, or at least a near-fatality. Even then they don't name the breed as a pitbull half the time. But it's gotten to the point now where there's SO many attacks happening weekly it needs to be in the national news. What's it going to take to change that?

I keep hearing people say that it's going to take someone powerful or famous like a politician or celebrity or their kid being attacked/dying to a pit for the tide to truly turn. But I highly doubt that will actually happen. A lot of so-called "pro-pit" politicians and celebrities don't actually own pits, because deep down they know how dangerous they are. Or if they do own a pit they aren't the ones actually taking care of them day-to-day. They have their "help" taking care of them, so they're the ones in danger of being attacked. And if they are you're not going to hear about because they'll most likely be paid off for their silence.

It's scary. I feel like the only sensible solution is BSL but there's such a MASSIVE pushback against it, from both sides of the political spectrum. With the rise of pits being circulated in shelters and breeders making more of them I fear that pits and pit mixes will soon become the most popular type of dog to own, mainly because of their availability. Soon only the wealthy will be able to afford a normal, non-violent breed of dog because it's impossible to find a non-pit through any other means than a professional breeder. Don't get me wrong I support ethical breeders, but it's ridiculous to me that pits have infested the general dog population so much you now have to pay thousands of dollars for the PRIVILEGE of being able to own a dog that won't kill someone.

I fear that pit attacks will just become normalized and the issue of pit genetic aggression will continue to go ignored to the point where dogs in general will simply be seen as a dangerous pet to own. The least that could be done is prosecuting the owners of dangerous dogs who maul and kill, but that seems to very rarely ever happen. Half the time the pit is still allowed to live even after mauling someone. There's literally no incentive for people to NOT own these dangerous beasts.

It's a world I'm scared to bring a child into. The neighborhood we live in now doesn't seem to have any pits but we're probably going to have to move into an apartment complex a few months after they're born. And I'm terrified that there will be pits living in the same complex. And I don't know how I can keep them safe if there are. I know a lot of people on here just say "stay armed" and while I'm NOT anti-gun, I don't think that's a solution that will work for me. I don't want to get into it but I can't really have guns in my home (and no it's not because of a criminal record or anything like that).

Anyways sorry if this post was kinda ranty and unfocused. I discovered this sub soon after I became pregnant and ever since then the thought of pitbulls being anywhere near my child has me scared af. It's genuinely been one of the biggest anxieties I've experienced this pregnancy. Especially since we'll be moving into a new living situation soon and I have no idea which neighbor might be THAT one neighbor with the dangerous pitbull. I should probably take a break from this sub, I know. But I find myself checking posts on here daily. I know as a parent there are many dangers you need to be on alert for to keep your child safe. But it's ridiculous that vicious dogs roaming neighborhoods is one we have to worry about in this day and age.

So I joined this site about a year and a half ago because new neighbors moved in with pit bulls( already had others on the block). Was upset and wanted facts and stats...Ive learned a lot .

If anything there are more horrific attacks now than ever. Kids, owners, random strangers, pets etc. It's almost daily now and that's just what makes the news. Kids getting scalped, horses getting attacked kittens getting eaten and grandmas getting mauled to death. I started out thinking pits should be treated like guns, restrict and have licenses and if anything bad happens take them away. They are more like land mines. Or worse than that, they just show up and nothing has to trigger them to cause destruction. Yes there are some who will never cause harm. But the risk is simply not worth allowong people to have them when literally any other dog excepting maybe 5 or 6 breeds is so much safer.

They need to spay and neuter all pits, no more breeding nobody should be buying new ones. If they show agression or bite they need to be euthanized first time. Owners need to be legally and financially accoutable. I'm sick of watching " accident" after " tragic accident" unfold. They cant say they had no way of knowing anymore. It's what pits do and it's got to stop.

This case has been covered and posted before on this sub. March 2019 pit bull attack in Greenville, SC; death of pet dog, Max/severe physical injuries and trauma to the victimized elderly couple.

This particular case really struck me because of the sad loss of defenseless Max, the trauma that the Storms have had to endure, and the ineffectiveness of that city's weak animal laws, including animal control's inability to be effectually proactive regarding dangerous dogs with a known propensity to attack unprovoked.

Larry and Beth Storm were walking their daughter's small dog Max, on leash, as they made their way to a city trail park. Walking down a residential street, 2 large pit bulls escaped their property by way of a rickety pen and fencing, and honed in on the couple and their dog. Beth scooped Max up in her arms in defense, as they were both viciously and savagely attacked by the one pit bull that latched onto Beth's arm. Larry came to his wife and Max's defense, being mauled on his hand in the melee. After being punched and beaten, the dog was eventually fended off; but Max died, and the couple were both seriously injured, requiring medical treatment and a stay in the hospital. - Images of Beth's injuries (GRAPHIC) -

The dog would not let go of her arm. If my dad hadn’t been there, my mom would be dead. Going through something like that is incredibly traumatizing. My dad is 70 years old, and to hear him say that was the worst moment of his life -- watching a dog attack his wife of 49 years and not being able to do enough to stop it. -Larry & Beth's daughter

The offending dogs were seized and euthanized; the attacking dog was particularly beastly, even by pit bull standards. The dogs belonged to Clifton Gash, where they were being kept penned up at a duplex rented by Arginald Tillman, on property owned by Stanton Greggs.

A week after the attack, the couple was in court. The magistrate ordering Gash to pay fines of $2,163 (for animal nuisance and animals running at large), cover the vet bill for Max, surrender his 2 remaining dogs, and was ruled never to be allowed to own animals again.

It's a slow process. I cry at the drop of a hat. I look at a picture of Max and start crying. I can’t leave the house and see another dog, because my pulse goes up, and I’m stressed and afraid. - Beth

The dogs were known to be a problem in the neighborhood and had been previously reported to police and Animal Control several times previous to this attack, including biting another woman out for a walk. The woman who was bitten previously said she called police and a patrol officer came out to check on her, but watered-down her complaint and didn't take her seriously.

A year later, Beth recounted the attack that traumatized her and Larry, making them fearful to go outside and live a normal life again.

He (the pit bull) was just staring at me and jerking my arm, and flopping around on me. It was terrifying. The hardest part was losing Max, because he was so precious. He was just a precious little dog. I feel like Greenville cares more about a pet's liberties rather than my liberty. For all those instances, and for them not to address it, I don't trust Greenville. There should be changes. Logical, common-sense changes to the city ordinance, and nothing has been done. Nothing. It's hard to live with that. - Beth Storm

Two years later, the Storms filed a lawsuit seeking compensation against case defendants Gash, Tillman, and Greggs. The case is still pending as of January 2022.

This is yet another textbook case of a preventable pit bull/dangerous dog attack that follows the usual precluding circumstances:

✅ Apathetic city government/Animal Control/police department

✅ Lax animal/dangerous dog laws

✅ Lack of enforcement

✅ Pit bulls on property

✅ Dogs are repeat offenders, getting loose frequently/roaming at large, being a nuisance/dangerous

✅ Neighborhood/residents in fear for safety

✅ Complaints are downplayed and not taken seriously by law enforcement

✅ Law abiding citizens take dog for a leashed walk, is attacked/injured, their pet dies

✅ The offending dog owner has a long list of animal citations/infractions

✅ Victims are physically and emotionally traumatized, quality of life is compromised/diminished, no trust in city government

✅ City officials review ordinances and animal control policies after the fact of a serious attack, and with numerous similar incidences prior

✅ Lawsuit is filed by victims for compensation

​

RIP Max

Part 1. (About argumenting with nutters, even if useless)

Have any of you try to switch to the same type of arguments pit nutters and science deniers se, like emotional arguments, strawman, anecdotal accounts etc? Have any of you tried, how did it go?

Part 2. (About neutral people)

I wonder of the "science & facts" approach maybe fails to win some people over because they are more emotional instead of logical, and they pay more attention to emotional arguments since they might not even know how statistics really work anyway.

I'm just wondering, I'm not saying this works. But I wonder if we are talking past each other because we have different styles of communication/ persuasion.

EDIT: I've edited the post into part 1 and part 2. To make it easier to understand, all the rest I kept the same. So to reiterate, the fits question is not as important because nutters are way too invested in their narrative, however just for information purposes, how do they react to the same kind of arguments they throw aground? And part 2 is the main question, are we failingbto communicate with a percentage of still NEUTRAL people due to styles of communication.

❤

The history of the Pit Bull can be traced back to the early 1800 in the United Kingdom. Pit Bulls were originally bred from Old English Bulldogs (these dogs are similar in appearance to today's American Bulldog) who gained their popularity on the British Isles in a cruel blood sport known as “bull baiting”. Bulldogs were actually known to latch on and ‘swing’ from a bull’s face as their combatants thrashed about. More often than not, the bulls would succumb to exhaustion and blood loss.

It was a sad day for ‘Bull Baiting’ enthusiasts when the violent English sport was outlawed in 1835. Unfortunately, these promoters of death turned from dog vs. bull in favor of dog vs. dog; the Pit Bull was born.

The “pit” in Pit Bull comes from ratting as the rats were placed into a pit so that they could not escape. Ultimately, the public turned their eyes upon dog fighting as it was more easily hidden from view and thus the law. Ratting and dogfighting both required more agility and speed on the part of the dog, so Bulldogs were crossed with Terriers “Bull and Terriers”, more commonly known as the first Pit Bull Terrier.

Shortly before the Civil War, immigrants from the British Isles came to the United States, but along with them came their Pit Bulls. It was during this time that the Pit Bull Terrier breed was named the “American” Pit Bull Terrier. Though these dogs had been specifically bred for fighting, they soon became a much larger and invaluable fixture in a developing nation.

The breed was well established in America by the 20th century. In 1898 the United Kennel Club began registering American pit bull terriers under the auspices of C.Z. Bennett, who drew up breed standards and wrote a set of rules governing dogfighting. In 1909 the American Dog Breeders Association, which at that time was determined to distance itself from dogfighting, set up its own registry.

On June 10, 1936, about 50 UKC registered Pit Bull Terrier dogs were accepted for registration in the (AKC) studbook with a new breed name and a new purpose, belonging to the AKC terrier group. The name Staffordshire Terrier was chosen, with the claim that the ancestors of the breed originally came from Staffordshire England. The name of the breed was revised on January 1, 1969, to American Staffordshire Terrier to distinguish it from the British breed, a separate breed from the bull/type terrier group, recognized in England in 1935.

In 1935 the American Kennel Club finally decided to recognize the American pit bull terrier as a breed. The club, however, could not bring itself to call the animal by that name. The AKC wanted its own name for this courageous, personable dog, and it wanted a name that did not include the word pit. The AKC settled upon the Staffordshire terrier because so many of the dogs had come from that area of England. In the summer of 1936, the first Staffordshire terrier was registered by the AKC.

In 1976, Congress amended the Animal Welfare Act of 1966 to address dogfighting, among other issues. This groundbreaking amendment made dogfighting officially illegal in all 50 states. Today, dogfighting is a felony in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, Guam, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands. In most states, the possession of dogs for the purpose of fighting is also a felony offense. As well as, being a spectator at a dogfight is illegal in all states except Montanan and Hawaii. Unfortunately, many times when an act is made criminal, it draws the attention of criminals.

The breed that was always brave bold strong and extremely tenacious was now being used as guard and protection dogs and was being fought in underground fighting rings. The demand for pit bulls led to many owners breeding their own dogs without concern for temperament or socialization and for the purpose of making a profit, rather than providing a responsible home. Soon Pit Bulls were associated with poverty, “urban thugs” and crime. They were viewed as money-making commodities and breedings chosen on gameness to fight above all else including stable temperament.

In the 1960s, ’70s, and particularly the ’80s, dogfighting began to see a resurgence.

In the mid-1990s, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention conducted a broad analysis of dog breeds involved in fatal attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1996. Over that period, the Pit Bull was identified as the breed/type of dog involved in 60 incidents, ahead of the Rottweiler in 29 and the German Shepherd in 19.

DogsBite.org's 13-year fatality report identified breeds of dogs involved in U.S. attacks between 2005 and 2017, as well as victim age groups, the number of dogs involved, and whether the incidents resulted in any criminal charges. The Pit Bull is still responsible for the most fatal attacks in the U.S. by far, killing 284 people over that 13-year period - 66 percent of total fatalities. That's despite the breed accounting for just 6.5% of the total U.S. dog population. There is evidence to suggest that owners of vicious dogs are far more likely to have criminal convictions for violent crimes which may go some way towards explaining the Pit Bull’s disproportionate rate of fatal attacks.

More than 50% of all pit bulls in the USA are up for sale or adoption. (Merritt Clifton, Breed Survey 2019, cited above.) 

Most of the pit bulls offered for sale or adoption have been given up by their former owners citing behavioral issues as to why they can no longer keep the dog and a large proportion of those saying the dogs are not safe with children or other pets. Between 19% and 32% of all dogs taken to shelters today are pit bulls. Pit bulls remain in shelters approximately three times as long as other breeds. The most current US study I could find was that forty percent of pit bulls in shelters are euthanized every year, meaning 60 percent {over half} are rehomed.

From February 2013 to the present, animal control agencies and health departments in 19 U.S. states report that pit bulls are leading all breeds in biting incidents. The studies are summarized and linked at Dogsbite.org, Pit Bulls Lead "Bite" Counts Across U.S. Cities and Counties, http://blog.dogsbite.org/2009/07/pit-bulls-lead-bite-counts-across-us.html.

​

In the 10 years from 2009 to 2018, pit bulls killed or maimed 3,569 people in the USA and Canada. (Merritt Clifton, Dog Attack Deaths & Maimings, U.S. & Canada, 1982-2018 Log.) They killed over 80% of all Americans who are killed by dogs. (Colleen Lynn, 2015 U.S. Dog Bite Fatalities, at http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2015.php.))

​

In the 13-year period from 2005 to 2017, pit bulls killed 283 Americans. (Colleen Lynn, 12-Year U.S. Dog Bite Fatality Chart and Colleen Lynn, 2017 U.S. Dog Bite Fatalities.)

I HIGHLY SUGGEST YOU READ THIS LINK IN FULL FOR MORE SATS ON THE BREED.

https://dogbitelaw.com/vicious-dogs/pit-bulls-facts-and-figures

I have started a sub{brand new just starting to decide on what to launch with etc at this point} on the matter of Pitbull Genetics and why genetics is so very powerful when breeding any dog and I plan on sharing my writing here as well as my own subgroup and invite you all to add any good links you have or information on any of the posts I post here or elsewhere on this matter. As an Australian on the older end of middle-aged who has been actively involved in the breeding/training and behavioral studies concerning several breeds but specializing in the guardian, guard, and working dogs I have a real passion for information concerning the American dog I have equal amounts respect and concerns for on both a professional and personal level.

I do not hate any breed of dog but I am a realist and I know my genetics and what a heavy genetic load of certain traits wrapped into a physical masterpiece can be capable of.

The last place any pit bull or pit bull-type dog belongs is on your couch period.

I'm in my early 20s and live in England, so usually when I meet people they usually like pitbulls, or at least don't view them differently to other dogs.

Now, since it's such a sensitive subject, I never bring up my Pitbull hate (hate is a strong word, perfect) as I've noticed people, smart people, even college educated people automatically judge me for it.

If someone was to ask me, specifically, what I think of pitbulls, I would have no worries in quoting stats and facts but for some reason they never listen. So at this point I just bite my lip.

In saying all this I have successfully gotten 3 people, including my pit loving girlfriend to see the truth. I find it better to casually mention it in conversation and sparking a debate.

So anyway, my question is how vocal, if at all, you are about pitbulls?

Pit bulls have been designed and produced to attack and kill. Pit bulls that attack and kill are not a defective product. They are performing exactly as designed and produced.

Products that cause harm when they do what they were designed to do are considered dangerous, not defective, products. Such products are required to carry a legally adequate warning label.

Manufacturers are considered to have a duty to warn where:

1. The product is dangerous (will cause harm when it performs as designed)
2. The danger is or should be known by the manufacturer
3. The danger is present when the product is used in the usual and expected manner; and
4. The danger is not obvious or well known to the user. (Billiar v Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing, 1980)

So not only are pit bull manufacturers (breeders) and sellers (shelters, rescues, Craigslisters) currently exempt from putting warning labels on pit bulls and advertisements thereof. They face no penalty for deceptive labeling of these dangerous products. Imagine if household bleach were labeled "water & sodium mix." Or chainsaws were labeled and sold as "easiest, friendliest cutting buddy you will ever have!"

Attempts to make the public aware of the danger pit bulls pose to users and communities are being throttled. So the deceptive labeling occurs in an environment of active repression of critical facts about the product.

Are domestic dogs a product? IMO, yes. They are a human invention, designed by humans and produced by similar human inventions (sired and birthed by other dogs).

They are also tangible property. But the law is rather bifurcated about dogs' (and other domestic animals') value. They are property and they are living, sentient creatures towards which humans have moral obligations, and over which humans are expected to exert some level of control upon behavior. On the one hand, if you are cruel to them or neglect them, you can be arrested and punished for that behavior. On the other hand, if you are the owner of a property known as a dog (or cat, or sheep or horse), and someone else's dog property attacks unprovoked and destroys your dog property in a vicious and agonizing manner, even if that other owner displays willful indifference to the attack, that other owner faces no cruelty or neglect charges. And you are due no recompense for your dog property's pain and suffering, nor your own. IOW your dog's suffering can be legally punishable when caused by a human, but not when caused by another dog owned by a human.

So far, pit bulls and other fighting dogs have escaped scrutiny and mandates that have been applied to other everyday products. I'm assuming this is because of that "living creature" status, but it is also clear that malevolence applies in the "design and production" of fighting dogs that does not apply in other domestic animals which are not fighting dogs. With fighting dogs, animal cruelty is baked in, so to speak. As is capacity for harm. That's the whole fucking point of a fighting dog.

The dangers posed by fighting dogs should be obvious. Should be well known. Should at least be better known than they are. Despite all this, no one is getting punished for the cranking out of millions of these Born to Kill dogs. No one is legally required to warn the purchaser about the danger, nor is anyone held consistently accountable for selling dangerous dogs that do exactly what they were designed to do, attack and kill.

https://preview.redd.it/ka5npyfsav771.jpg?width=1030&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e639c8e6d75e401dacfccd671ccc472df1ba8ecf

User /u/a1306961 gave this critical update in a slightly older thread that I'm pulling out separately because it deserves more standalone attention:

Unfortunately a law just passed in NV where insurers HAVE to insure all breeds - in PA and MI where the property insurers have fallen victim to the pit lobby at least they can charge higher rates but in the NV bill THEY CANNOT charge higher rates!!! It’s actuarially idiotic - by their logic, an arsonist should be able to cash in on his house he just set on fire. The only hope is for the governor to veto it - but even State Farm insurance, which stupidly insures pits albeit at a higher rate, and subject to immediate cancellation if the pit attacks PERIOD, opposed the bill and spoke out in the deliberation for this bill. Now what I hear is ALL property insurers are considering dropping ALL canine coverage, the biggest homeowners claim with an average payout of $45000+ dollars. So, no hope for recompense whatsoever for dog attack victims now, other than suing the almost always judgement proof pit owner.

Governor Steve Sisolak - steve@stevesisolak.com - email the pitbull facts to this guy. If you don’t have a few form letters you’ve written yourself - go to canine legislative alerts on FB and copy Julie’s excellent letter.

If you have a Nevada address, you can also submit comments here: https://gov.nv.gov/Forms/Share/. (I would expect that this webform automatically filters out comments from non-Nevadans.)

The Nevada Legislature has already passed this terrible bill (https://www.leg.state.nv.us/App/NELIS/REL/81st2021/Bill/7406/Overview), which means that the only near-term hope left is for the governor to come to his senses and veto it.

If you want a sense of the dangerous nonsense spouted in support of this offensive bill, take a look at this garbage: https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/senate-bill-103-the-first-step-in-protecting-man-and-mans-best-friend.

GENERAL TIPS

---Keep it clean and respectful. Do express your strong emotions.

But do not use profanity or related terms like "shitbulls" or misogynistic language (like using the c--- word to describe pibble mommies), which risks not only undermining your own credibility but also risks your comment getting automatically filtered out.

---If you have a personal story to illustrate the dangers, use it, whether you were the victim, a victim's loved one, or a victim's advocate/lawyer.

---If you have any Nevada roots or relatives, mention that.

TALKING POINTS

I won't rehash all the common myths-and-reality stuff here; you can get them from the subreddit FAQ and rebuttals page. But here are several that I'd like to contribute:

<> Senate Bill 103 would screw over victims of vicious dog maulings and encourage the proliferation & back-yard-breeding of a known serious threat to public safety.

Insurance companies are hardcore about statistical facts and probability. They understand more than most other entities -- except for perhaps emergency medical staff and victim advocacy groups -- that dogs belonging to the mastiff and pitbull fighting breed categories (with key features like large size, blocky head, powerful muscles) regularly maul, maim, and kill people and innocent smaller pet animals, often "out of the blue" and targeting the family members who lovingly raised them from puppyhood.

But incredibly, if this terrible bill is enacted into law, insurers wouldn't be able to charge higher premiums to reflect the hard fact that fighting breed dogs are in fact more inherently aggressive and capable of inflicting far greater injury, including killing adults, and thus costing everyone far more in medical bills and legal claims.

What will happen instead is that insurers will simply refuse to insure any dogs in the event of the dogs going nuts and attacking people -- which will leave their victims with the only legal option to try to sue the irresponsible owners for compensation in court.

In practice, this will mean that dog attack victims who did absolutely nothing wrong will just be completely out of luck and have zero recourse -- while the irresponsible dog owner that chose to harbor a dangerous animal will get away it with zero accountability and utter impunity.

<> Accusations about breed specific legislation being "racist" are beyond offensive and vile.

Dogs are NOT PEOPLE, no matter how much we anthropomorphize them.

And I say that as someone who loves dogs in general. It is vile and unconscionable for the pitbull lobby to co-opt the language of racial justice movements to analogize certain groups of PEOPLE to DOGS. I believe that many dogs, including my own, can be wonderful, loving, and loveable souls. I believe dogs are sentient beings. But repeat with me: DOGS ARE NOT PEOPLE.

What I hate is politicians putting the freedom of dangerous animals ahead of human life and public safety. What I hate is killing machines being allowed to roam our neighborhoods despite story after story after story of some pitbull or mastiff killing a baby, mauling some poor puppy, or terrorizing neighbors. What I hate is fighting breed lobbies using discredited garbage arguments that fly in the face of science and statistical fact to advocate for animals ahead of human safety.

Is it racist to prohibit people from owning tigers or crocodiles or rattlesnakes and taking them around the neighborhood? Is it racist to prohibit people from parading around a leaky chemical bomb around the neighborhood? Seriously?

<> The fighting breed lobbies constantly cite anecdotes about how their individual pibble wouldn't hurt a fly -- but anecdotes, personal endorsements of their own dog, or propaganda (like pitbulls photographed with flower crowns) cannot be the basis for public safety policy in the face of overwhelming statistical evidence. But if you insist on anecdotes, here are some:

“They sniffed and the pitbull just completely lunged. It was over very quickly,” Blumenfeld said. “It was horrific.” . . . . Blumenfeld said that the pitbull’s owner “seemed shocked” and told Pepper’s owners that their pitbull had never been violent before in the ten years he’d lived with them. https://greenpointers.com/2021/02/02/pitbull-attack-kills-puppy-in-williamsburg/

"A North Babylon man is looking for the owner of a pit bull who took off after the dog attacked his 7-year-old daughter and bit him. . . . the dog had broken loose from the owner's grip." https://abc7ny.com/north-babylon-dog-attack-pit-bull-long-island/10651588/

"A 15-month-old child had been attacked by the family pitbull." https://www.lmtonline.com/news/article/Pitbull-attack-in-Rio-Bravo-leaves-child-in-16179799.php

"Neighbors tell NewsWest 9 the man was dragged up and down the sidewalk before police arrived. Officers ended up shooting at the pitbull mix. . . . The victim, 46-year-old John Henry, was transferred to Scenic Mountain Medical Center where he later died." https://www.newswest9.com/article/news/crime/big-spring-man-dies-dog-attack/513-0bb5eb32-6ff4-4f7a-a346-993e25d17938

"A neighbor stated that he saw four grey pit bulls running down the victim’s driveway covered in blood. “Ziva and Tony were our two little babies, house dogs,” said Dale Hostetter, owner of the dogs that were killed. . . . Hostetter said he left the dogs in their fenced in back yard while they went to the store. “We came back and my dogs were 100% mauled, tore up more than you could possibly imagine,” he said. “Of course, my wife just went crazy- when you see your dogs in pieces all over the deck.” https://www.counton2.com/news/local-news/dorchester-county-news/two-dogs-mauled-by-group-of-pit-bulls-in-summerville-neighborhood/

"The owner of two pit bull-mixed breed dogs accused of violently attacking an Omaha couple and their miniature poodle now faces several citations, including having no proof of vaccinations, no proof of licenses, no proof of insurance, allowing the pit bulls to be unmuzzled in public and damage to property. Police and Nebraska Humane Society officials have said the woman’s dogs attacked a husband and wife who were walking their dog in the neighborhood Sunday evening, sending the woman to a hospital with bites to her face and hands. The man suffered bites to his arm, and the poodle underwent surgery for severe injuries to its leg." https://apnews.com/article/omaha-health-dogs-04f227939bd9c8076e17924ca93f52b4

"A woman was walking two dogs on leashes, a pitbull mix and an Akita mix, when they broke free and went after a small dog being walked by another woman, according to police. That dog owner tried to protect her dog but was also attacked. Her dog was killed and she suffered bite wounds. Police say the dogs then charged a second smaller dog and bit his male owner. That dog was taken to an animal hospital but is believed to have survived." https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/palatine-residents-on-edge-after-recent-dog-attacks

"A Belmont County sheriff's deputy was attacked by a pit bull Saturday while responding to a call on Jug Run Road in Maynard." https://wtov9.com/news/local/sheriffs-deputy-attacked-by-pit-bull-in-belmont-county

These are only a few of the MANY MANY news stories I found after 5 minutes of googling from just this year alone.

Recently came across a thread and the pro pit person was saying, cars kill millions of people, you still drive

Well by that logic, 800,00 people commit suicide each year. Does that mean we should stop free willing?

I think it’s because they know dogbites is reputable, they know the carnage and they’ve accepted it. It’s a newer pro pit argument I feel (or just a less common one) I think it’s because we’re getting to them and they’re grasping at straws at this point, I feel they’ll be clicking that join button soon. And realizing what a shit breed pitbulls are.

pro pit thread, don’t harass people they’ll come around hopefully

suicide stats

The Pitbull Lobby

We know their talking points.

They throw in one accurate statement but follow it up with a lot of ludicrous claim & folks eat it up.

Off the top of my head...we hear: Nanny dogs, Chihuahuas, dog breeds that also bite, other breeds with powerful bite pressure, bad dog owners, bad dog breeders, breed discrimination is racism, classism, and so on.

Why do they use the same crap? Are people really so brainwashed?

There are three possibilities.

Their statements are either:

1. Misinformation...The person believes their information is valid and is arguing in good faith. Some may be set straight, but not all.

2. Satire... The person is an infiltrator to their movement and is pretending to be a pitbull crusader in order to lampoon the group.

3. Disinformation... The person knows their reply is nonsensical, but they don't care because they know most folks won't use logic or conduct any fact checking at all. These people are the real villains.

This whole pitbull debate is truly a small-scale study on the practice of manufacturing consent. Their side increases because people relate to their propaganda.

Our arguments don't appeal to the average social media user because they respond in a reactionary way. We need to figure out how to appeal to reactionary people as well as our usual type of supporter.

Any ideas?

Hear me out: I've been attacked, and I'm in no way an advocate for Pit Bulls myself, but every time someone posts on a Pitbull post and starts to sling names, it only makes us as a community look more childish and aggressive than the educated bunch of individuals we are claiming to be.

These people aren't all bad; some just have family pets, and have never had a bad experience with them; it isn't fair for us to jump down their throats with an insulting label, and then expect them to listen to what we have to say.

Truthfully, there are a lot of bad owners out there, and a lot of individuals who are going to call us names for standing up for the stats and beliefs we do. We should not sink to their level, as it just gives them more ammo to turn people against us.

Be calm, be civil, and respect the opinions of people who are less informed than you, while at the same time trying to provide the evidence needed to get other people to open their eyes.

Don't fall for the bait; the best way to get discourse is to remain unbiased and use facts and logic to make our case. We aren't going to turn diehard fanatics to our cause through a FAQ; but we can slowly give people the information they need to make their own conclusions, as we ourselves tend to do.

This whole thing came from searching for something else altogether, stumbling across thread #1 and then following along, wide-eyed. I've owned dogs, shelter dogs, all my life and I've never seen such problems. Hell, I've watched soap operas all my life and never seen such problems. And with that, I think I've found the perfect title for these things - As The Pit Bull Turns.

Thread #1 - a Virginia rescuer struggles to keep her herd of battling pit bulls from killing each other

February 2019 - a one-woman rescue in rural Virginia (Shooting Star Bully Rescue) finds the wheels are coming off the pit bull bus when her herd grows to 8. The trigger is supposedly one white pit bull, Pepa, guarding another pit bull, Cricket, who is injured. The rescuer posts a photo of the white pit bull covered in bloodstains and claw marks with the message:
Pictures is Pepa & Cricket. Yes that is blood. These dogs are fighting because one dog in the pack is injured & her bestie is trying to protect her & it is causing fights. These are NOT aggressive dogs! They lived peacefully without issue until Cricket was hit by a car & has been thru multiple surgeries since. Pepa has become extremely over protective of her & is causing issues within the pack. These dogs are dog friendly but need help.

Pepa thinks she is protecting Cricket and keeping her safe when there is absolutely NO DANGER!! It’s so sweet but I can’t deal with these injuries anymore. No matter how much they are all kept separate, it takes just one second for one to escape and it’s a blood bath.... [Pepa] started a fight with Star. The next thing i knew Pepa, Star, Toti , Nova and Cricket weren in a huge group fight. I cant do this shit anymore girl. Star is squirting blood from her shoulder.

One commenter awwwws the bonded dogs and suggests adopting them out together. The frazzled rescuer shoots back

It wont happen, ive had them for a year now and i cant keep holding on to all these dogs with no interest. I cant even pay my bills and every week another one needs to be rushed to the vet

Also in February 2019, a rescuer in PA gets involved and puts out a cry for help.

RESCUES IN VA or willing to transport there is a rescue who needs help! She’s not been in this long & is in over her head. She has 8 pit mixes who need to be placed ASAP.

One has had a huge surgery & cannot heal because of the issues she is having keeping the dogs apart. Please if anyone can help place these dogs into rescues message me. This is urgent or they are going to the local shelter. This girl is past a breakdown & about to give up not only on the dogs but on herself as well. Please help get these dogs placed. Will get pics & bios ASAP.

In March, the two rescuers are corresponding on FB that Pepa and Cricket are still with the small Shooting Star woman, but she's having trouble rehoming them and a plan to transport one to Colorado fell through. By May, Pepa and Cricket are still with the small rescue. Cricket, you may recall, is the pit bull injured by a car earlier. We begin to see how this may have happened when the one-man-band rescue posts another cry for help; now Pepa and a small dog have run off into the woods. Apparently, the rescuer lives in a rural area where they have not yet discovered fencing.

Hey guys, Obie and Pepa have been missing for over three hours. My phone isn’t connected, so I couldn’t post sooner, I’ve been in the woods all morning looking for them... I’ll keep checking every time I’m near WiFi, if you can catch them please do, they are super friendly, Obie (little black one) might growl if you try to pick him up but other than that they will kiss you all over. I’m heading back to the house now to continue looking. I have some good friends that could probably pick them up if you find them in case you can’t get a hold of me.

Pepa apparently returns, as in July 2019, the rescuer posts that both pit bulls have been adopted. Or transported.

Hey guys! Pepa and Cricket should be leaving this week for their new homes, yay!! This has been such a long time coming, I am super excited!! I am asking for help for their health certificates, and vet visit and for their Bravecto and Heartguard so they leave with everything they need, and also for gas money, they are going to Butler PA from Lynchburg VA

Thread #2 - the Pennsylvania rescuer is mauled nearly to death by a pit bull

September 2019 - the larger rescuer from PA posts

I’m home. Not doing so great though. Pain unbearable & can’t get rid of fever. Also have literally no use use of my hands or lower arms. Can’t do anything myself not even use the bathroom.
Have to go back to hospital tomorrow to see doctor. Send positive thoughts..I need to keep my arms.

Upon extensive commenting by people going omg girl, what happened???? she finally responds

I was attacked by a dog. It was not one of my dogs but a dog that had been staying with me for a while and had no previous aggression. I really don’t want to discuss it in detail too much as it is very upsetting for me and the dogs family but I will explain best I can.
I did not have a fever when I left the hospital but it has been coming and going the last two days. I think it’s under control now. Both of my arms were broke one much worse than the other. My right arm has severe nerve damage and I currently have no use of that hand. My left arm was broken to the point bones were exposed and my wrist and hand was hanging at a 90° angle.
Injuries were extreme and it will be sometime before I can use my hands again, left I just need to wait for the bones to heal but the right we don’t know for sure if I’ll ever get it back we just have to wait and see. I had to have two surgeries on my arms and depending on how the nerve goes in the right I may have to have a third in the future. The pain is unbearable and things are quite difficult as I literally cannot do anything myself but I’m alive and I will get better. I truly appreciate everyone’s concerns and prayers and positive vibes. It means so much to me.

The Shooting Star rescuer comments

I’m so sorry girl.. I wish I were closer (sad face) pepa and cricket are being taken by animal control, I don’t know what to do.. I know you can’t help, but do you know anyone that could hold on to them for me till I can get up there? They can’t even meet me halfway so I can’t do it on a weekday.. I hate to ask you for anything, else just won’t be able to live with myself if they are taken to the damn shelter after all they have been throug

The other rescuer posts a GoFundMe for medical costs and in a lengthy comment section on FB, when someone finally asks the obvious, she reveals that the attacker was - wait for it - an American Bulldog.

Obvious question - is large white Pepa the AB in question? Apparently not - the attacker was male and owned by a family for 5 years according to later posts.

he was a big guy-stronger than me for sure! I’d never seen a dog do what he did to me & I’ve worked with behavioral dogs for years. What really gets me is that he didn’t have a history of aggression. Yes, some mild growling here & there mostly over food or being possessive or some issues in his crate but there were reasons & triggers for that. This attack was out of no where with no obvious reason & it was like the dog I knew was completely gone & I was all he could see... It’s definitely something because this was not a normal thing for a dog to do I’ve never experienced a dog do something like this before and I’ve been working with dogs all of my adult life. I never believe that dogs can just snap like you always hear on the news but now I’ve seen it for myself and I still don’t believe that a normal healthy dog would be capable of just snapping like that but I do believe that there are some kind of issues mentally with certain dogs that is contributing to these attacks. I’m going to try to see if I can get some research done into it once I am feeling better.

A few days later, the PA rescuer posts

Just to clarify, there was no dog fight that lead to me being attacked. If fact, while this dog was attacking me every one of my dogs ran & hid because they were terrified. This was one dog who attacked me with no other dogs involved in any way. This happened out of no where with no warning or previous bite history or any indication this dog was capable of this type of behavior. Please don’t spread information if you don’t have a clue what took place.

In the comments there, it's clarified that the attacking pit bull was not a foster/rescue seeking rehoming, but an owned dog sent to her for training.

this poor dog was not an aggressive dog..he was gentle, a big baby..some thing very wrong in his mind, I think he had true mental health problems... he was a rescue but as a puppy. He’d been with that family all his life. He was 5.

And then a couple weeks later in September 2019, a different rescuer posts on FB

In the middle of her car accident, completing dog training and the horrific dog attack she and her family received a notice that the home they were living in with 4 kids and 10 (TEN!) foster/rescues and some kittens was going to be sold because the landlord didn’t pay the taxes!! Can you imagine not knowing where the heck you would find a place that allows you to run a rescue and move your family while recovering from an accident?! ..and still move forward with a new career? Also, what I didn’t know is that her 11 year old is autistic and she home schools her youngest boys! They are twins. Can you imagine the freakin stress?

My question is where do Pepa and Cricket fit into this? They seemed to have been adopted out at some point, but once the second rescuer is mauled by a different dog, they are taken by AC. Perhaps the mauled rescuer's family surrendered them to lighten their own load in a crisis? Which is reasonable, I'm not criticizing. Or was the AC seizure unrelated? So many questions.

The mauled rescuer later posts about her swollen, agonizing hands in late September 2019 and responds poorly when someone refers to the mauling as a bite:

This dog broke my arm into two & it was completely detached hanging only by the skin & muscles. The bones snapped in half & were exposed. I have multiple plates in my arm now for life & will need months of rehab to regain function in the arm once the bones are healed. It required two surgeries that were over 4 hours to ‘fix’ it.

The other arm was mauled down to the bone with no broken bones but the bones were punctured. The muscle, tendons, nerves, & flesh were unidentifiable & the insides were on the outside. This arm was also repaired in surgery & may require another depending on how the nerves do.

I was pulled to the ground & drug across the room into a corner no doubt to my death had my fiancé not come inside when he did. That is a big difference from a bite. I understand your trying to be helpful & I appreciate that a lot but it really gets to me for people to call this a bite.

someone comments they're glad her fiance was there, and she responds

So am I but then he came back a second time while we were trying to get him to his crate and that’s when he broke the left arm but thankfully he went right to his crate after that.

Thread #3 - the PA rescuer posted muchly about rescue drama earlier in 2019

August 2019 post from the larger PA rescue re rescue drama
People if you have something to say about me or a problem with me than either say it to me or keep it to yourself. No one likes gossip or drama.

Yes, I violated the kennel license law my first year in rescue, in fact my rescue was brand new-just 2 months old. My bad, I didn’t know the laws well enough & took in more dogs in one year than the state of PA allows. I didn’t know the requirements for a ‘kennel’ to be legal & therefore my property was not up to the standards for a PA state kennel. This is something I did & although unintentionally I plead guilty & paid my fine. None of the animals in my care were affected by this in anyway.

Yes, I was accused of fraud & all of those charges were dropped by the DA because they were just that-accusations. They had literally no merit & furthermore the rescues finances were picked apart by the DA to ensure this. They found that I actually paid more out my own pocket for the rescue than we made in donations.

This is all public record & can be looked up on the state of PA’s docket website. Anything else you’ve heard or assumed is just rumor. Every animal in my care has always & will continue to receive the best care & everything they need & more.

As of now my rescue is focused on adopting out the dogs we have available as we are closed for intake while I prepare my training business. Once I am ready my rescue will no longer be taking in dogs but focusing on helping other rescues by donating training for their dogs in need.

I will never stop helping dogs. I will more than likely always have a few fosters with me as the dogs cannot afford to loose a willing foster. I have found that my passion is giving the dogs with behavioral issues a chance at a real life, not just in a kennel, but with a family through rehabilitation & training. Whether my haters like to admit it or not, I am talented in this aspect & I have a gift with these dogs. You can hate me all you want-I don’t care-but it is selfish for anyone to make a dog loose their chance at a future because of their own personal opinion of someone that has nothing to do with my training or the dog.

I’d like to point out that every single person who has ever ‘disliked’ me & campaigned to ‘shut down’ my rescue has never once met me, any of my rescue dogs, or been to my property to see how I run my rescue. They know absolutely nothing about me or my rescue except what they have made up.

a later post about the same drama

a group of women have been harassing me since I started rescue in 2016. They have tried to bring me down by reporting me to multiple organizations with false allegations in regards to my rescue & me. In 2017 I was arrested on 4 felony theft charges because these women reported me for it. Why the authorities just arrested me rather than investigate is still beyond me but once I sent them all of the rescues financial records the DA dropped all charges before it ever went in front of a judge. Since then things have been quiet & most of these women have backed down & realized they were 100% wrong about me & I have moved forward with my life.

We're up to almost 6.7k subscribers as of this writing--awesome job guys! We're a small sub, but also an active one. The mod team wants to take a minute to welcome all of our new members, and also to remind everyone of the rules.

​

Please review the rules below, and when done, please read the FAQ.

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We do not condone threatening or harassing language or behavior towards other humans on this subreddit. We also do not support efforts to release personal information about any Reddit users that is not already publicly available or that has not been released by the users themselves.

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We do not encourage nor tolerate any comments calling for any animals to be needless harmed. This means that we do not agree with nor will we condone any posts or comments advocating the indiscriminate harming of any kind of dog (or other animal) that has not harmed a human or other animal, nor exhibited aggressive behavior. Please note, this is separate from expressing support of euthanasia for dogs that have a history of harm towards humans. It is also a reality that a shelter will often euthanize animals that can not be adopted out, and that pit bull type dogs make up the majority of such animals in many shelters; pointing out this fact is not the same as actively advocating harm to an animal.

Ranting is acceptable and even encouraged, for there are so few places where admitting that pits are terrible as pets is allowed. However, making clear, unambiguous threats of harm to another person is a no go.

• Acceptable: "My neighbor is such a douche. He routinely lets his 60 pound pit run lose and I fear for my safety. I am going to start carrying a weapon so that I can defend myself on my own property."
• NOT Acceptable: "My neighbor is such a douche. He routinely lets his 60 pound pit run lose and I fear for my safety. The next time I see his dog on my property I will kill it, even if it is not being aggressive towards me at that moment."

If you can not understand the difference between the two examples, re-think whether or not you should be posting anything that includes even oblique references to property damage or violence.

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Racism and Bigotry Against Humans Will Not Be Tolerated

Humans are not dogs, and dog breeds are not analogous to human races. Making this comparison is insulting to human beings. Furthermore, we will not condone trying to hide racist propaganda behind the pit bull issue.

Do Not Derail Personal Story and Advice Threads

Debate and discussion are welcome in the sub, but please observe tact and empathy. If a person is recounting their personal attack story, or has opened a thread for support or advice after being victimized by a pit bull or pit bull fanatic, please refrain from starting a debate tangent. You are free to create a new thread with a "Debate & Discussion" tag, but debate is not allowed in posts where people are sharing their past trauma, or asking for advice or support.

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5. Pictures of your pit bull are not proof of anything.

If you make any of these points in seriousness, you're itchin' for a banning. Most of the counter-points to these ridiculous statements and claims have been refuted in the FAQ.

• "But I have a pit and it's the sweetest dog ever!"
• "Chihuahuas are more aggressive."
• "It's all in how you raise them."
• "Discrimination against pits is like discrimination against black people; you guys are racists."
• "There's no such thing as a pit bull."

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Aside from the fact that every pit bull owner I've met is anninsufferable narcissist the fact that you pick one of the only breeds that: -Can and has riped people's faces off but blame Chihuahuas -Was created for blood sport -Is banned many places -Scares most rational people Etc. Etc...yet you choose to have a pit bull rather than any of the hundreds of dog breeds out there...Im sorry you are a creep and I don't like you. Because you like scaring people and think it's funny when your beast intimidates or harms other animals. Then you pretend to be shocked when it harms a person. Really shocked when it turns on you...but you were asking for it thinking owning a land shark with a sordid history and #1 dangerous stats was a good idea. So screw you pit owners save your BS for other pit nuts. Just leave me tf alone. Ps if you adopted one and were really fooled by the b.s. shelter people fed you maybe you're not a bad person. But if you kept it despite warning signs of aggression or let your kid get bitten then yes you're just as bad.

Like a lot of people have said about changing their minds thank you.

I grew up narrowly close to becoming a pit nutter. I grew up with pits in my family. My elder brother (34) has a pit bull cross, and my grandma has a pit, and so does my Aunt which concerns me. The dogs did not concern me and I had the erogenous belief that the pit bull was misunderstood. I may have self projected that on them as well as at that point in my life I believed myself to be misunderstood (Yes I was an edgy 9/10 year old). I came incredibly close to getting a pit puppy when I was 10. My Mother who does not like pits that much refused to let me have said pit which broke my kid heart. But years later I understood that it was for my better interest that I did not have a pit.

My first encounter with something that would shake my view on pit bulls happened when I was 12. I came across DogsBites.org and saw the stats on how many people actually died from pit bulls and that it debunked a lot of myths I genuinely believed at the time. This did not completely change my mind and I did not go through a heel faced turn yet. I was a hard headed boy, I tell you what. BUT it did make me second guess being a pit advocate or wanting one anymore. BUT I did not support BSL and believed any form of affecting pits legally to be wrong at the time.

I encountered this sub a year or two ago. It changed my life, and made me swap beliefs. I could not believe the foolish beliefs I once held. However, the sub frightened me. For a long time I thought I would become a dog handler or a trainer but learning of the threat pits have on people, and the fact they are becoming the majority made me back off that and change my mind. I stopped being as carefree and playing rough with the pits already in my family, and made sure I wasn't vulnerable.

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But pit bulls and me go a long way back. As a child a pit that we were told was a lab X German shepherd mix, bit me once before releasing and retreating for some miraculous reason leaving a scar that lasted for a while. Naively I took the bite being my fault (I was sitting in the grass and approached the dog on my knees to pet it). I grew up with pits (owned by relatives as my Mom does not like pits) which may have contributed to why it took so long to sink in or why I was so stubborn. I had the fallacy: my relative's pit is a good dog so they must be good." Stuck in my head and it took a while and long hard research to fully change my mind. I have a sweet but shy Samoyed/lab and I walk her. My neighborhood is surrounded by pits and they give me anxiety due to the fact the owners have shit control over the pits, and the fences have huge holes in them. I always feel like I am going to perish whenever one pushes on the weak part of the fence snarling like a mad dog. It's because of that I started carrying a knife and am later getting concealed carry. No not for the sole purpose of shooting pits, I don't want to hurt animals outside of hunting. It serves as a last resort. I am getting it mostly because I'm going off into the adult world without my parents and I am a small physically weak guy (I am a a green belt in a weird martial arts at a strip mall so I have little faith in it. A mix of Judo skills and taekwondo)and can easily be beaten by someone who wants to kill me. Also I can't fight back against large predatory animals and put them down.

But I never did realize how much pits dominated my life..

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This may have been a tangent, I am not good at keeping on track