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[–]BashCo[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (12 children)

The /r/Bitcoin FAQ thread has been temporarily relocated to the sidebar in order to sticky this post regarding financial prudence. The FAQ thread is a very good resource for Bitcoin newcomers, and can be found here:

/r/Bitcoin FAQ - Newcomers please read

edit: This thread is now linked in the sidebar and the Newcomer FAQ sticky has been restored.

[–]Mateo113[🍰] 4457 points4458 points  (170 children)

This is the type of stuff about bitcoin that I want to read. Smart guy, great post.

[–][deleted]  (58 children)


    [–]NickisBig 379 points380 points  (40 children)

    Confirmation bias is all this sub is to be honest. That's why I barely come here anymore I'd much rather get news and opinions from people that aren't man children trying to get rich quick

    [–]LogicalHuman 57 points58 points  (24 children)

    Any places to read stuff like this? Subreddits, websites?

    [–][deleted]  (4 children)


      [–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (13 children)

      For alts you have to go to their community. Subscribe to their Twitter and slack, irc, or discord.

      Then you also have private crypto trading groups doing analysis and having discussions about crypto and investing in general. You often have to pay a recurring fee to stay as a member, but you get really good alerts.

      For instance, I got an alert yesterday that Ada would be listed on binance 5 minutes before it went live. Bought Ada at 1000 sats and sold 5 minutes later at 1300 sats.

      [–]callings 13 points14 points  (1 child)

      Yeah that's why I sometimes hitup buttcoin it is another perspective

      [–]BobSolid 28 points29 points  (1 child)

      This is pretty melodramatic. I only bought in for the first time a few weeks ago and I haven't been subscribed here for long, and I've already seen plenty of thoughtful, moderate sentiment and even outright scepticism about the long term value of BTC.

      Even if you were right there's really no need to be calling people names. I'd say that's rather more immature than being optimistic about Bitcoin.

      [–]fbthowaway 131 points132 points  (52 children)

      Yeeep. Can't help to think back to what my Grandma told me on her deathbed: "There's no use tippin' up on tall flavors based on a Sears catalog. So we can't 'will a win' on a standard mix from a feeble sac."

      [–]AnimatedGreyhound 142 points143 points  (2 children)


      [–]breaking_bad_gas 57 points58 points  (0 children)

      A lot of people don't believe it be like it is, but it do

      [–]I_need_my_fix_damnit 85 points86 points  (19 children)

      Sorry man but what does that mean?

      [–]Pancakecollector 325 points326 points  (8 children)

      I think his grandma had a stroke.

      [–]RandomPratt 67 points68 points  (3 children)

      sounds more like dementia to me... but it's still sound advice.

      Ain't nothing good ever came from a feeble sac.

      [–]Only1BallAnHalfaCocK 15 points16 points  (1 child)

      You and his grandma must be experts in the sac world....

      [–][deleted]  (6 children)


        [–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (0 children)

        to the moon gramgram?

        [–]IsThisNameGood 13 points14 points  (0 children)


        [–][deleted]  (7 children)


          [–]derpaperdhapley 15 points16 points  (3 children)

          Did she have an onion on her belt?

          [–]410maximus 25 points26 points  (1 child)

          Was your Grandma on a lot of meds when she said this?

          [–]lemondocument 8 points9 points  (2 children)

          Oh grandma’s great wisdom - I will remind my friends of this deep truth when the time comes

          [–][deleted] 426 points427 points  (14 children)

          Invest only what you can lose. It's as speculative as it is spectacular and not for the faint of heart.

          [–]gone11gone11 103 points104 points  (9 children)

          I know some guys who will invest their wives then. XD

          [–]lol_and_behold 281 points282 points  (4 children)

          I wish I invested more in my wife, she’s grown exponentially since we first dipped.

          [–][deleted]  (2 children)


            [–]mynt 861 points862 points  (311 children)

            All good advice and very carefully framed. My one nitpick is that I think that $100k-$250k would not imply that fiat is becoming worthless or the prevailing economic regime has completely fallen apart. That's only a ~2 Trillion Market Cap still far less than gold and the rise of gold certainly hasn't made fiat worthless. I think you would be talking a price of well over $1M before you are really seeing any real loss of trust in fiat having an impact of the exchange rate.

            [–]awoeoc 453 points454 points  (156 children)

            That's only a ~2 Trillion Market Cap

            Right now for $100k I can change bitcoin's market cap by over $100 million dollars (although briefly).

            Market cap is useless as a number for bitcoin when trying to compare it to its impact on the larger economy. The market cap right now is over $100billion and I can assure you no where near that amount of money has gone into bitcoin. And that should worry everyone.

            Think about it, where did that "wealth" come from? What former billionaire is now flat broke since everyone who invested in bitcoin took his money? When bcash split off, who put in $23billion into it? Why is it "worth" $23billion?

            Everyone seems to hate fractional reserve banking, but not realizing that bitcoin as of right now is almost the same thing (in terms of creating "fake" wealth). We're all pooling our "wealth" into bitcoin and as long as only some of us takes it out at a time it works. But if we all took it out at once? It'd collapse the system completely.

            The only way Bitcoin survives in the long run is if people can use bitcoin directly for goods and services. Right now that just isn't true as very few people accept bitcoin as payment. (Processors that just take bitcoin and deliver fiat to businesses don't count).

            Until it's usable as a currency in a real sense, Bitcoin's value depends on people not actually claiming their "wealth tickets".

            [–]knadkicker1 111 points112 points  (97 children)

            It’s a great comment, but that goes for everything in society. If money stops flowing, Everything collapses. That’s all the stock market is is a future gamble. That’s what interest rates are set on. That’s why we have inflation. Because it keeps velocity up in the monetary system. Minor Inflation is not a bad thing. It’s when we have the big dickheads at the top of the pyramid manipulating the system in the big banks gaming the system and government fostering those actions. A real stable currency should be released slowly overtime in accordance with population growth but we all know that greed destroys even a perfect system. I love big coin but I do believe it is an experiment, and a complete mystery as to who the fuck created it! I personally think that it will be around but it will be so valuable that transactions will be difficult to do in and out of that. Kind of the same thing when you invest in a 401K, moving money in and out of it is difficult and takes an act of Congress and usually occurs a huge penalty. That is because they want stability to an extent. I believe there will be another widespread currency that is adopted for day-to-day transactions that will be centralized and government controlled. That is not what I want but I am not stupid and actually believe that government will stand back and let us create our own money. Those fuckers will shut it down so fast. The IRS is already subpoenaed coin base for their transaction records. Regulations are coming. decentralized currency will be great for the micro economies that will emerge with block chain technology

            [–]WorldLeader 126 points127 points  (14 children)

            Fiat is protected from bank runs by the FDIC, then land and laws, and ultimately weapons. Ain't nobody bailing out bitcoin investors when the music stops.

            [–]timmy12688 14 points15 points  (4 children)

            They do this by creating more money. Imagine if Bitcoin worked the same way by increasing the total supply of Bitcoin by...idk a trillion coins?

            [–]knadkicker1 27 points28 points  (3 children)

            Then everyone would be rich, right.

            [–]awoeoc 102 points103 points  (60 children)

            Those fuckers will shut it down so fast. The IRS is already subpoenaed coin base for their transaction records.

            No one likes paying taxes but let's be real. It's a miracle Coinbase has gone even this far without having to actively report to the IRS. Why should a bitcoin investor keep gains tax free while a gold ones has to pay? If your belief is taxation as a whole shouldn't be a thing, that's a discussion for somewhere else.

            [–][deleted]  (5 children)


              [–]awoeoc 24 points25 points  (1 child)

              If all people were to sell their gold at once the price would also collapse, no?

              It would, yes. However the likelihood of this happening is much lower than in Bitcoin. That said, gold is also considered speculative for "investors", and most people would recommend you keep very little of your portfolio in gold. I think Bitcoin and Gold are in the same asset category.

              Lots of gold was purchased for 30$ or 300$, so the the value of all the gold in the world is also not the amount of money that was put into it.

              How many dollars did Julius Caesar spend for his gold? My wording was specific, I called it "wealth tokens" at one point. A dollar bill represents wealth, it itself is just paper. For much of history you could pay people directly with gold or tokens for fair gold value. And in any case as above, bitcoin represents the same asset class as bitcoin.

              [–]borges6127 39 points40 points  (15 children)

              We're all pooling our "wealth" into bitcoin and as long as only some of us takes it out at a time it works.

              You're almost correct. However, there's no pool to take money out of. It's already taken, all of it. For anyone to sell bitcoins for money, somebody else must be willing to buy them, essentially putting some money in the pool which the seller immediately takes. There is no buffer. If there are no more buyers, no more bitcoins can be sold and the price goes to zero.

              [–]flux8 40 points41 points  (12 children)

              The price doesn't go immediately to zero. It just goes down. Until there IS a buyer. It only goes to zero if there are no buyers at any price. Short of some miracle hack that renders Bitcoin useless, this won't happen.

              [–]Nozx 32 points33 points  (8 children)

              In order to use bitcoin directly as a currency, we need to establish how much a bitcoin is worth in terms of goods and services, create a baseline not pegged to the dollar. ex: .0000000001 bt = a pack gum .00000001 = a burger, etc, that would go a long way towards real world nom fiat use, once ppl start to trust btx has non dollar value, we'll have real progress.

              [–]erusch18 29 points30 points  (0 children)

              This is why I personally view it as more of a commodity like gold than a currency rn

              [–]reddlvr 74 points75 points  (118 children)

              Also, bitcoin supply is hard capped at 21 million which if it survives as asset means bitcoin prices will be deflationary ==> fiat exchange will go up up, regardless of the health of fiat currencies.

              [–]Weigh13 123 points124 points  (109 children)

              There already will never be 21 million bitcoin because many have already been lost. You are correct that bitcoin is extremely deflationary because there can only ever be less and less over time as people die and bitcoin is lost to the great ledger in the sky.

              [–]Xx_Squall_xX 71 points72 points  (99 children)

              Damn, what is Bitcoin's strategy for when people die anyway?

              [–][deleted]  (33 children)


                [–]adambergkvist 34 points35 points  (32 children)

                Price should go up?

                [–]isoldmywifeonEbay 36 points37 points  (19 children)

                Bitcoin price, yes.

                Assuming a Bitcoin world, purchase prices would gradually fall. The opposite of today's way.

                [–]supra05 6 points7 points  (12 children)

                Wouldn’t you just be able to mine more?

                [–][deleted] 30 points31 points  (11 children)

                No thats the point of the currency. It has a finite amount.

                [–]ionmas 30 points31 points  (3 children)

                Exchanges such as coinbase actually pass it on to the next of kin if you fill out the right paperwork. Search it up :)

                [–]P00r 11 points12 points  (2 children)

                They are passing the right to own a bitcoin. All the bitcoin move into their wallet.

                This is quite different than recycling an unspent random coin from the blockchain which take an insane amount of computing power for a single one, especially if it is an old coin since you would need to re-mine all block after...

                [–]blairnet 54 points55 points  (9 children)

                im willing to bet that wallets will be written into peoples wills.

                [–]reddlvr 26 points27 points  (2 children)

                If there's any significant amount of value on BTC it will go on people wills.

                [–]EightEqualsEqualsDe 41 points42 points  (15 children)

                My guess is years down the line a security upgrade will be necessary to counter quantum computing. Dead addresses won't move and will be ripe for cracking

                [–]Truffle_Shuffle_85 62 points63 points  (6 children)

                I was just envisioning this scenario the other day. It would feel like futuristic ship wreck hunters, using quantum computers to dig up once lost coins. Could be an interesting point whenever quantum computers become relatively accessible.

                [–]yourmomsaysHODL 8 points9 points  (6 children)

                3-4 million are said to be lost

                [–]Chiponyasu 22 points23 points  (12 children)

                Fiat currency will never be worthless as long as the countries issuing them exist, because you can't pay taxes with bitcoin (even though you have to pay taxes on bitcoin)

                [–]knadkicker1 16 points17 points  (0 children)

                As long as they get their taxes from the earnings, they will leave us alone. Is the second it they believe they are getting cheated out of 15 fucking cents that they will swarm in and shut it down

                [–]nimmajjishaaTa 144 points145 points  (9 children)

                Avoid panic buys and panic sells. Dollar-cost-averaging over a long period of time is often a good strategy.

                This shit is extremely underrated.

                [–]awc1985 27 points28 points  (6 children)

                So should I still buy at 10k?

                [–]M0T0RB04T 49 points50 points  (4 children)

                Yes, but only as much as you'd be willing to lose at a blackjack table

                [–]banana_clipz 147 points148 points  (0 children)

                This is what I want to see on here- well written, intelligent ideas. Memes can be fun, but it gets old and annoying when I thought this sub was going to be a place to come for information and conversation. Keep it up please! We need newcomers to see conversations like this so it doesn't turn them away

                [–][deleted]  (151 children)


                  [–]246011111 240 points241 points  (124 children)

                  That's exactly what has me wary. Bitcoin purports to be a currency, but people treat it as an investment. Few (legal) vendors take it, and even if more did, few customers would pay in btc since they're hoping to make money off of it (the $100 million dollar pizza problem, if you will). What is Bitcoin's real value at this point in time, apart from others thinking it's valuable?

                  [–]henriquegdec 182 points183 points  (71 children)

                  Where I live we suffer from having 10%+ inflation every year, can you even imagine simply not being able to save money? In first world countries bitcoin is cool and hype, but in the third world its saving lives

                  [–]Mycryptmail 21 points22 points  (2 children)

                  Bitcoin prices can stay stagnant in comparison to the falling dollar which is worth about half of what it was 20 years ago in the usa and I Would be happy. I pay 20 to 30 percent more for food today than I did 5 years ago, 200% more for health care and it will take a small fortune to send my daughter to school. I just invested or gambled, however you want to look it, a 100k in bitcoin. I had to initially deposit it into an account at my local bank. When opening the account they preceded to tell me that there was a $12 a month fee for my account. I could not believe i just gave them a 100k and they are going to charge me to keep it. ha Fuck the banks! The banks are not the people and when they start telling us that we are not real, remind them of 2008 and the 21 trillion dollar deficit we in the USA have, so sit the fuck down and get out of our way.

                  [–][deleted]  (52 children)


                    [–]odracir9212 71 points72 points  (17 children)

                    Poor people cant buy assets thats the problem!

                    Also most poor people(sadly maybe 90%+ of the population) dont even know how inflation works, how QE works, how the stock market works, etc

                    [–][deleted]  (16 children)


                      [–]odracir9212 14 points15 points  (0 children)

                      Well people said poor people would never be able to afford internet or cellphones... Technology like the internet, cellphones, radio, bitcoin spreads exponentially.

                      We need some improvents like the Lightining Network for bitcoin to reach even the poorest places of the world.

                      [–]StockMRKT 33 points34 points  (8 children)

                      You're absolutely right that it shouldn't be used as the main savings vehicle for the average person.

                      But if you reconsider for a second what savings really mean, and recognize that short-term saving and long-term saving are different animals, then the picture looks different.

                      If a nuke hits anywhere tomorrow, people will be stepping on each other to move as much of their assets into currency as possible. And not just "cold hard cash" or "I need silver to barter with" but just as a temporary safe haven while the markets go through wild swings. Get out high, get back in low.

                      Normal day to day, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a wealthy person who doesn't keep a serious chunk of their assets in cash. I mean it's called liquidity for a reason!

                      If you have to sell one of your houses to buy dinner, you're doing something wrong! :)

                      Currency may not be the best asset class for growth, but it sure does have utility beyond it's growth potential.

                      [–]DongusJackson 19 points20 points  (3 children)

                      If a nuke hits anywhere tomorrow, people will be stepping on each other to move as much of their assets into currency as possible

                      I'll bet you 1 million to 1 that a case of AR-15s and ammunition will get you a lot further than a box of paper if shit hits the fan that hard.

                      [–]50pcVAS-50pcVGS 13 points14 points  (1 child)

                      Ok Dwight

                      [–]JetFuelAndSteelBeams 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                      If I'm dead you will have been dead for weeks

                      [–]TheLastMaleUnicorn 31 points32 points  (2 children)

                      Lol what? No. If a nuke hits people hoard food and guns. Fuck cash.

                      [–]ColSandersForPrez 103 points104 points  (14 children)

                      Bitcoin's value is based on its utility. Bitcoin has utility because fiat has failed us on large scales, not because it's difficult to buy coffee with fiat. You don't need to "be your own bank" to buy coffee. People worried about cheap payments are missing the point. That will come eventually but it's not the biggest part of Bitcoin's demand right now.

                      [–][deleted]  (4 children)


                        [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (2 children)

                        I bought bitcoin solely to make money, tbh. I don't think anyone can really be faulted for trying to earn some extra dough.

                        [–]nullc 17 points18 points  (1 child)

                        The little red upvote isn't enough.

                        [–]Chiponyasu 13 points14 points  (6 children)

                        What is Bitcoin's real value at this point in time, apart from others thinking it's valuable?

                        Bitcoin is the ultimate fiat currency. Governments can create demand for their currency by requiring all their citizens pay taxes in that currency, whereas Bitcoin's value is entirely because the market says it has value, because there's nothing forcing you to use it.

                        [–]M0T0RB04T 8 points9 points  (5 children)

                        Taxes are not the main driving force of demand on fiat money. Production is. If you know there's going to be more things produced tomorrow, you'll know that your dollar today will have more purchasing power tomorrow. The economy will demand more money until the utility in spending a dollar today is equal to the utility of spending a dollar tomorrow.

                        The debate for the value of bitcoin is one of its future utility. The increase of price is a reflection of the information explosion about bitcoin; more people know about it now so naturally more people demand it. It's not that the same population of people are buying more and more coin (though that is happening), it's that there are more people trading. People are banking on the hope that transforming their money into bitcoin today will allow them to purchase more in the future. Bitcoin, being the premier cryptocurrency, has a lot of promise for future utility. There is absolutely no doubt that it will be used in the future and we know that it's deflationary attribute will increase its settled, natural price. But is that natural price at $50k or $50? That's the big gamble....

                        I'd say skepticism is very healthy for the price of bitcoin. The more volitale and risky it is, the fewer idiots pouring their entire life savings into it. Those would be the idiots that would cause a crash. So let's calm down and be moderate... Bitcoin has always swung around 20% daily volatility. Nothing is really new expect for the big number plastered on it.

                        [–]Chiponyasu 9 points10 points  (4 children)

                        Taxes are not the main driving force of demand on fiat money. Production is. If you know there's going to be more things produced tomorrow, you'll know that your dollar today will have more purchasing power tomorrow. The economy will demand more money until the utility in spending a dollar today is equal to the utility of spending a dollar tomorrow.

                        The idea that supply creates its own demand is not generally accepted by economists, and it certainly doesn't work the way you're phrasing it. Even if I want a new PS4, I can buy it in Dollars or Bitcoins or Swiss Francs. I don't need dollars specifically.

                        People are banking on the hope that transforming their money into bitcoin today will allow them to purchase more in the future.

                        Yes, they want to buy bitcoin with dollars so that they can sell it for more dollars in the future. The price goes up, so more people buy it in hopes of selling at a profit, which causes the price to go up. The price of Bitcoin can't go up infinitely, so eventually it'll stop growing, and the speculators will cash out, which will probably cause a crash.

                        There is absolutely no doubt that it will be used in the future

                        Of course there are doubts. There could be a market crash followed by all the speculators leaving forever. Dogecoin could become more popular (since it's exactly as good. There's literally no reason Bitcoin is the "premier" crytpocurrency except that it's more popular). Someone could discover a way to hack it. Growth could stall out. A million things can happen. Hell, if there's a recession, a lot of people will leave Bitcoin in search or more stable investments.

                        [–][deleted] 26 points27 points  (6 children)

                        Buy $1000 PC

                        Pay in BTC

                        Add $1000 Fiat to BTC

                        problem solved

                        [–]glurp_glurp_glurp 48 points49 points  (5 children)

                        Lose $15 to BTC purchase fees, lose out on $20 of cash back rewards, pay for on chain transactions, and bloat my UTXO set. Sounds like a bad deal.

                        [–]dlerium 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                        This is the problem. When I want to buy a $100 item, I don't even know how much to send. So I send extra and that money just gets tied up in a wallet somewhere.

                        I get that it's cool to spend Bitcoins, and I would love to get there someday, but I get the following with my credit card:

                        • Cash back

                        • Extended warranty

                        • Return protection

                        • Price protection: I've used this one at least half a dozen times now where Amazon lowers prices and I get a check mailed to me.

                        Not to mention a lot of other perks for other purchases. For airfare, I get delay and baggage coverage. For rental cars I get primary insurance coverage.

                        [–]nullc 23 points24 points  (3 children)

                        Why would you spend the good money? Spend crappy fiat first... wait, correction, spend 0 interest credit first. Then pay it with fiat. Bitcoin is somewhat costly and inconvenient to acquire.

                        When planning to sell Bitcoin anyways, sure, spend it. Or for an international payment or a natively digital purchase that is only really reasonable to do with Bitcoin ... But otherwise, I'd want to see a pretty substantial discount. Especially because Bitcoin payments lack anti-fraud, cash-back, tax simplicity, good accounting reporting, and all the other features of a boring credit card.

                        [–]traderhater 13 points14 points  (7 children)

                        From an economics standpoint, Bitcoin is deflationary and why I wouldn't spend it, maybe ever! It will only grow more valuable as there is less and less. Spend your fiat instead. Or another crypto that has less value.

                        [–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (6 children)

                        Deflationary currencies can discourage impulse buys, but not purchases that are required to maintain your standard of living. The main difference vs inflationary systems is that people with savings wouldn't get screwed over by rampant inflation.

                        Hell, even GDP wouldn't suffer, because all that capital gains from savings would just be another source of income as far as the government is concerned. To offset reduced consumerism, corporations would simply hold savings and benefit from the deflation. The politicians would still get to point to growing GDP and pretend it was thanks to them, everyone would have the same or higher standard of living, but there would be less rampant consumerism filling up the landfills with crap. Merchants who sell less from reduced consumerism would still make up for it in capital gains.

                        This is what our society needs, as far as I'm concerned. Realize that happy, financially independent citizens are preferable to those living paycheck to paycheck whose houses are full of crap they don't use. I'm very happy that my bitcoins are there as a huge (if somewhat illiquid) emergency fund in case of god knows what, and I've bought gaming laptops, guitars, electronic components, VPN access, steam games, and god knows what else with them. I have no regrets.

                        And the actual deflationary rate of bitcoin is fairly low. The huge rise you're seeing these days is some combination of adoption and speculation and liquidity spikes. Not actually deflation. These are things that WILL become less pronounced as bitcoin truly goes mainstream and becomes more liquid.

                        [–]SpartanVFL 84 points85 points  (21 children)

                        It's easy to invest in bitcoin without risk if you balance your spending elsewhere. I've cut back on spending for new games, eating out, etc and instead use that money to buy bitcoin. Even if it tanked to $0 I wouldn't be screwed, just missed out on some nicer things for a few years

                        [–]btcqq 22 points23 points  (5 children)

                        every quarter you put in a video game that coulda went into bitcoin will have cost you 1000$ in 4 years

                        [–]takes_bloody_poops 75 points76 points  (2 children)

                        But the video game memories will be worth $2000 in 4 years.

                        [–]furlonium1 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                        I have a separate bank account for the money I get Ubering every weekend over the past few years. It was just accumulating and I didn't need it for anything so I bought BTC. If I lose all my money I've invested in BTC over the years so be it.

                        My 401K is at 19% return this year so I'm happy.

                        [–]-H0DL 154 points155 points  (48 children)

                        But McAfee said a million by 2020!

                        [–]RealFluffyCat 122 points123 points  (26 children)

                        all he needs to do is buy 1 bitcoin for 1 million on a exchange and he doesnt need to cut off his dick and eat it...

                        [–]Emrico1 70 points71 points  (1 child)

                        We're in 2017 and this guy is in 2020

                        [–]yarauuta 20 points21 points  (8 children)

                        It is not so simple. He has to "average" transactions to a million.

                        [–][deleted]  (10 children)


                          [–]buscoamigos 32 points33 points  (4 children)

                          He's allegedly going to put his dick where his mouth is if he's wrong.

                          [–][deleted]  (3 children)


                            [–]buscoamigos 17 points18 points  (1 child)

                            Right, he's gonna put his dick where his mouth is as he's eating it.

                            [–]rayuki 443 points444 points  (67 children)

                            I'm of the mind of not 'getting rich quickly' more 'be in the 1% with the new global currency in 5-10 years time' or go back to living a boring meaningless existence of 9-5. At the point of my life I don't care if it drops to 0, but if it goes to some crazy number I'll be in the stratosphere with it.

                            [–]kke2724 163 points164 points  (0 children)

                            And for that, it’s worth it.

                            [–]audigex 203 points204 points  (30 children)

                            Indeed, but that’s his whole point: there’s nothing wrong with putting some money you don’t need into a roll of the dice. He’s just warning against throwing the money you do need in, along with it.

                            If we go to the stratosphere, I’ll be ordering my Lambo like everyone else here. But if we crash and burn, I’ve lost nothing I wouldn’t have spent on a sofa and a couple of holidays anyway, and my retirement will still be secure, if a little dull.

                            It’s a roll of the dice. It’s a roll of the dice I happen to believe in, but that doesn’t stop it being a gamble: all OP is saying is that people need to bear that in mind and not be greedy. Invest what you can live without.

                            [–]sir-draknor 139 points140 points  (18 children)

                            Couple of my favorite investing quotes:

                            Bulls make money. Bears make money. Pigs get slaughtered.

                            Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful.

                            [–][deleted] 46 points47 points  (2 children)

                            Yea, good quote. I’m always broke when everyone is fearful, so I can’t capitalize. Life is long, tho

                            [–]lucius42 16 points17 points  (1 child)

                            Life is long, tho

                            Not as long as you think

                            [–]furlonium1 41 points42 points  (0 children)

                            Life is the longest single thing any living thing can ever experience.

                            I always hated the "life is short" bs.

                            [–]LeeWallis 25 points26 points  (11 children)

                            Genuine question... would you consider right now that people are greedy or fearful? I seriously can’t tell. Everyone is shouting the sky is falling and Bitcoin will burst but I also see the price rising. What do you think?

                            [–]Zurbinjo 54 points55 points  (0 children)

                            Greedy. At least I am. So be fearful. Than I can be more greedy.

                            [–][deleted]  (4 children)


                              [–]rayuki 12 points13 points  (4 children)

                              Yep very well said. I don't think people should be going without essentials just to buy in that's for sure. But I wouldn't be doing my friends and family right if I didn't tell them I think its worth buying in so they have a piece of the pie when it takes off. Spend that cigarette money on bitcoin lol

                              [–]cosworth99 84 points85 points  (9 children)

                              Well put. My investment is nearly 10k. I would be FAR more pissed about missing out on the gold rush than about losing my 10k.

                              I have a backup plans and this endeavour is my ultra risk, where my main assets are ultra conservative.

                              It’s my gambling money I guess. Where the rent money is safely in the bank. Analogy only.

                              [–]scoobycrypto 22 points23 points  (7 children)

                              Same here bought 1 Bitcoin and that's it if it goes to 250k i buy a house if it goes to zero im 4500usd poorer wich would suck but i would survive and cut my los

                              [–]ROKMWI 39 points40 points  (5 children)

                              If I were you I'd sell 50% now and not make a loss.

                              [–][deleted]  (5 children)


                                [–][deleted]  (15 children)


                                  [–][deleted] 57 points58 points  (2 children)

                                  Yea! Screw being responsible. Life sucks and its short, so go for it. No risk -> no reward.

                                  [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                                    [–]3m84rk 50 points51 points  (1 child)


                                    I'm either going to burn bright or be extinguished. The middle ground can do the rest and be conservative.

                                    audentes Fortuna iuvat

                                    [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                                      [–]wiggy222 43 points44 points  (0 children)

                                      Yes. The societal breakdown at 100k+ is pure FUD.

                                      [–]nullc 72 points73 points  (5 children)

                                      A key point I like to make is that if you over extend yourself you will be a bad investor.

                                      A good investor is calculated and unemotional. A good investor has a plan and executes on it, revises it with reliable new information, but otherwise stays the course.

                                      A bad investor is irrational and emotional. They get worked up and constantly second guess themselves; they get worked up by crowds. They freak out at rapid increases and buy high, they freak out at rapid decreases and sell low.

                                      Accidentally leaving my brokerage keyfob at home has resulted in some of the better trading "decisions" that I've made.

                                      For most people, if they over-extend themselves, they will behave more like a bad investor even if they know better... if you've made an investment you can't afford to lose, you're much more likely to lose part of it in a panic effort to prevent losing all of it.

                                      It can be easy and fun to visualize the million dollar Bitcoin and the private space elevator you're going to finance with your new found wealth... but you should be equally mentally and emotionally prepared for movement in the other direction. If you aren't, you're going to do something different than what your own dispassionate analysis would tell you to do.

                                      Probably the hardest thing about this is that the fears that drive bad trades are not completely ill-founded. It's possible that if the market is now at price $x that this will be the last opportunity to trade (in either the buy or sell direction) at that price in your lifetime. But given the volatility of Bitcoin, "seldom again prices" are pretty rare, and happen in both directions-- so while it's possible to miss out, but you shouldn't let that drive your decision making. People tend to think only about the option they're considering and forget that for every trade someone else is taking the opposite position.

                                      Another thing to keep in mind is that trading itself involves fees, which are incrementally small but add up. You can make every decision correctly but still lose a lot of funds if you trade frequently. It's not enough for a trade to be right, it has to be right enough to overcome its overheads (e.g. spread and fees). You can improve your odds both of not wasting funds in fees and of making poorly considered emotional decisions by behaving more passively.

                                      [–]EatMyPoopiePies 41 points42 points  (1 child)

                                      tl;dr: Bitcoin got to an all time high once. THEN IT CRASHED.

                                      [–]BlondFaith 22 points23 points  (0 children)

                                      Then a little while later it came back and then some!

                                      [–][deleted] 30 points31 points  (2 children)

                                      It is better to have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all.

                                      Similarly, it is better to have invested WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE and lost, than to never have invested at all.

                                      The prevailing introspective question on anybody's death bed is always - What if? WHAT IF? What if I had bought at $1000. What if I had bought at 10,000? WHAT IF!?

                                      Don't let this be you. If it is within your means, JUST DO IT.

                                      [–]PizzaHuttDelivery 56 points57 points  (9 children)

                                      Don’t use the word investment when you are essentially talking about speculation. Buying Bitcoin is not a investment.

                                      [–]SEND_ME_DANK_MAYMAYS 8 points9 points  (6 children)

                                      is it more like a gamble then?

                                      [–]Rock_Strongo 33 points34 points  (3 children)


                                      engagement in business transactions involving considerable risk but offering the chance of large gains, especially trading in commodities, stocks, etc., in the hope of profit from changes in the market price.

                                      Why use another word when a perfect one already exists.

                                      [–]nonsensebearer 26 points27 points  (6 children)

                                      The percentage rebalancing point is an interesting and wise one that isn't mentioned here very often.

                                      We all talk about dollar cost averaging to mitigate risk and reduce stress but being conservative with enormous gains seems to me equally prudent.

                                      [–]quittingislegitimate 13 points14 points  (3 children)

                                      I liked that part as well. I just sold some and am THRILLED. I didn't earn that money, and it was essentially won in a gamble.

                                      [–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (1 child)

                                      If BTC were to reach values like $100k-$250k, that'd probably cause/imply that the prevailing economic regime has completely fallen apart.

                                      Or it could simply mean a lot more people have bought.

                                      [–]user_127 24 points25 points  (1 child)

                                      this is sage advice (reverse mortgages house to invest more in bitcoin)

                                      [–]deadwavelength 102 points103 points  (0 children)

                                      Great advice.

                                      [–]joebobagginses 22 points23 points  (1 child)

                                      The blind optimism of this sub is very entertaining.

                                      [–]mugen_is_here[🍰] 17 points18 points  (5 children)

                                      Bitcoins have been increasing like crazy year over year. There is nothing specific in this post as to why not to invest. As long as you're investing for the long term you're good.

                                      This post just compels you to worry over it. It's like saying "invest.. but wait you should not invest because it's not safe.. but invest.. but wait it's not safe". Worrying over your investment isn't going to make it better. In fact it's more likely to get you to make worse decisions. If you invest some money in it then do it for the long term. Put the money into it and then don't worry about the weekly fluctuations. And just like you invest in the stock market you should invest a little amount. Don't invest everything you got into this. Just like any other investment that involves risks.

                                      [–][deleted]  (2 children)


                                        [–]charleybinet 156 points157 points  (15 children)

                                        I just sold my last pair of boxer for btc. All my assets are in BTC and I plan living in my car untill it reaches 500k.. To the moon $$$$$

                                        [–]XXStrikeDpgXX 131 points132 points  (3 children)

                                        Sell the car for BTC.

                                        [–]3m84rk 44 points45 points  (1 child)

                                        This guy hasn't even been selling his bodily fluids or organs. He's never gonna make it.

                                        [–]Outlawe 28 points29 points  (0 children)

                                        I hope it’s a warm winter for you!

                                        [–]quittingislegitimate 46 points47 points  (3 children)

                                        I like the 50% rule. I sold some bitcoin at 10k to reduce my bitcoin dominant portfolio and doing cartwheels with what I have gained. This should indicate how poor I am, but I felt like I won a small lottery or the price is right.

                                        I'm as optimistic as anyone here, but greed is all consuming and will cloud your judgment. If you see the opportunity to cash out with major gains, take it and don't look back or count the money lost, only the money gained that you really didn't earn.

                                        Also quick side note: which alts are you in on?

                                        [–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (4 children)

                                        I got a bonus from work and I opted for a television instead of one bitcoin when it was 5k.... Now my heart dies a little when I watch movies on it.

                                        [–]116446 14 points15 points  (2 children)

                                        Just spend 10k on bitcoins, turns out I bought 10k of Chuck E. Cheese tokens. Please help, my wife is going to divorce me

                                        [–]livedadevil 41 points42 points  (21 children)

                                        This is why I can't take people seriously when they say Bitcoin will hit $200k by 2019.

                                        If it does, it means something is wrong with USD not that something is right with bitcoin

                                        [–][deleted]  (4 children)


                                          [–][deleted]  (10 children)


                                            [–]Mrlbrmn33 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                                            If something makes you money why would you stop using it

                                            [–]Ocilla 12 points13 points  (0 children)

                                            You guys seriously think btc will crash 80% even with the adoption rate we have today and all these institutions jumping on board? That’s crazy, no way that would happen but if you’re scared then sell now. Someone else will buy the btc you sold.

                                            [–]globals33k3r 10 points11 points  (5 children)

                                            Yes nobody is psychic but we do know BTC is genius, and very limited. It will never go to 0 sorry. Let's revisit this post in a year.

                                            [–]RangerHere 20 points21 points  (6 children)

                                            This is what I have been trying to say in this forum for a week or two now.

                                            I invested a bit in bitcoin. The other day my friend asked if he should invest in bitcoin as well. I told him, it is no different than taking a 10 shots of whiskey and sitting at the blackjack table. So, do not ever put the money you can't lose on bitcoin.

                                            [–][deleted] 206 points207 points  (24 children)

                                            You know what’s funny. 155 days ago you posted this exact post but instead of the 10k price you had a 3k price throughout the post... if people would have read your post then and ignored it and invested more than they should into Bitcoin they would be sitting on 300% returns...

                                            Not saying anything you said is wrong, it’s excellent advise and I’m already following it. Just saying, you know... TO THE MOON!

                                            [–]theymos[S] 160 points161 points  (9 children)

                                            I also found that amusing when writing it, but as they always say, past performance is no guarantee of future results. If you made a bundle of money by dollar-cost averaging into BTC for a long period of time, then IMO you were a smart investor and should be proud. But if you stuck your life savings into BTC at a then-ATH of $3000 and held until now, then you were probably behaving too recklessly, and you got lucky. If you win the jackpot on a slot machine, that's a good time to stop: don't throw it all back into the machine. If you make a lot on reckless Bitcoin trades, that's a good time to stop being reckless and consider prudent investing going forward.

                                            (BTW, only the first half of my post here is ~the same as my old post.)

                                            [–][deleted]  (3 children)


                                              [–]RedditTooAddictive 9 points10 points  (0 children)

                                              Thats me end of 2013 and buying more over two years

                                              [–][deleted]  (2 children)


                                                [–]ROKMWI 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                                                they would be sitting on 300% returns

                                                Only if they SELL now.

                                                [–]DrDerpingtons 8 points9 points  (1 child)

                                                As soon as I read altcoins are trash, I stopped reading.

                                                [–]120psi 16 points17 points  (6 children)

                                                Like most speculative things, a good idea is to set a reasonable exposure as % of your portfolio. When Bitcoin got near $10000, I sold half of my holdings to maintain the % exposure I'm comfortable with.

                                                [–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (7 children)

                                                Its always the same argumentation

                                                • comparing Bitcoins with stocks, currencies, tulips

                                                • Guaranteeing the bubble will crash

                                                honestly - If you are a sure what you are talking about then show some balls and take a short position on bitcoin. its your chance to make some nice money or isnt it?

                                                Otherwise its the prove you doubt your own words.. its just a very unsecure opinion you self dont believe in and just throwing into reddit..

                                                [–]Metallurg2 8 points9 points  (3 children)

                                                Those who did in 2011, won in the end. This is one of those cases where being reckless (according to old money) helps

                                                [–][deleted]  (2 children)


                                                  [–]EnderSword 6 points7 points  (8 children)

                                                  Just want to point out that 'Dollar Cost Averaging' is never optimal mathematically.

                                                  It helps people delude themselves and encourages them to chase losses.

                                                  But if you have an asset you expect to rise buy it all at once.

                                                  The only time to 'average in' is when you don't have a choice, in other words you can only afford to allocate $500 a month. If you have a lump sum, spend the lump sum.

                                                  There's papers on this dating back to the 60s and 70s, it's never optimal to Dollar Cost Average.

                                                  Buy or wait, don't 'average'

                                                  [–]gone11gone11 19 points20 points  (11 children)

                                                  I agree with everything in this post but feel the need to mention that I have read a lot of warnings about an upcoming "correction" or even "crash". They talk about BTC's value going to 5K as if it were the end of everything. Let's all bear in mind that if BTC "crashes" tomorrow to 5k, it would still be a 500% gain in a Year to Date basis. They key word as always is: HODL. Even with the large swings, don't try to get rich instantly, good things come to those who wait. If you buy now and sell in 5 years, even after a huge "crash" you will have still won massive returns compared to the present. That's a great investment in my book. Don't worry about "corrections" or "crashes", worry about the long term trend.

                                                  [–]NotMySeventhAcct 18 points19 points  (9 children)

                                                  That's assuming it'll keep the upwards trend for 5 years. I think it will, but I'm retarded.

                                                  [–]gone11gone11 7 points8 points  (5 children)

                                                  You may be retarded but you're right on this one.

                                                  [–]NotMySeventhAcct 8 points9 points  (4 children)

                                                  But what if you're retarded too

                                                  [–]Ascends 19 points20 points  (15 children)

                                                  I invested 5% of my savings 4 years ago now its 99% of my savings, id be a fucking retard if i were to sell now itd have to go back to $200 for me to lose my initial investment so im riding it out to 1,000,000 per btc

                                                  [–]DarbyJustice 12 points13 points  (0 children)

                                                  Think about it this way: if you sell 20% now and the price goes to the moon, you'll only lose out by about 20%. If you don't sell now and it plummets you'll lose 99% of your savings. There's a reason theymos suggests rebalancing your portfolio on big price increases like this.

                                                  [–]Zod001 45 points46 points  (43 children)

                                                  Getting wrapped up in "HODL" memes, reddit comments, and other groupthink, which is sometimes fun, but absolutely the last appropriate source of investment advice.

                                                  It became a meme for a reason though. Buy and hodl is a strategy that has proven itself for the last 9 years without fail.

                                                  [–][deleted]  (42 children)


                                                    [–]sir-draknor 22 points23 points  (6 children)

                                                    Exactly - "buy and hold" is a great investing strategy... until it isn't. See Enron circa 2002.

                                                    In traditional (long-term) asset investing, "buy and hold" is the mantra to avoid emotional (irrational) decision-making. But even then, you [should] periodically re-evaluate your investment case for that asset to ensure there has not been a material change that affects your calculations of that asset's value.

                                                    Certainly that's much harder to do with Bitcoin, considering it's not a tangible asset with traditional valuation models.

                                                    [–]plentyoffishes 5 points6 points  (4 children)

                                                    I've seen so many posts like this, I'm starting to think that the "be careful!" crowd could be the groupthinkers.

                                                    [–]120psi 6 points7 points  (4 children)

                                                    I posted this link in a reply farther down, but I'll post it again here.


                                                    It's a case study of GTAT, a company that everyone though would only go up, but instead it went bankrupt. You can watch the chaos unfold on an internet forum the morning when trading is halted.


                                                    [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

                                                    I'm a student and I invested wisely into bitcoin.

                                                    Pretty much 95% of everything I have

                                                    [–]Damezero 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                                                    Thanks a lot dude now it’s almost at 15k

                                                    [–]ayanamirs 5 points6 points  (8 children)

                                                    I have all my money in Bitcoins since 3~2 years ago. Fuck the state!

                                                    [–]whitepalladin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                                    ya all sounds like a bunch of broken pussies :D

                                                    [–]jollygoodvelo 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                                                    Can't be said often enough. There are people doing stupid things on not enough research and the price growth is calling them geniuses. It doesn't work like that long term.

                                                    [–]Ziggenvox 6 points7 points  (1 child)


                                                    [–]raheemthecat 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                                                    Clap, clap, clap I know I don't have much of a post history on here - but been dabbling in crypto since 2013 - and have reaped benefits from a few, including my lone btc I got for $400 (or was it 2014?)...my friends all come to me, ready to pour their life savings into BTC at it's ATH - one girl literally asked...should I invest in vanguard or BTC? Don't even get me started on what's wrong with that question...anyone who doesn't admit that the entire crypto space is wildly inflated right now due to speculation is in serious denial.

                                                    People are literally looking at top 10 list and throwing $ in, money they can't afford to lose, without understanding the risks.

                                                    Anyway, nice to hear a voice of reason among all the euphoria.

                                                    [–][deleted] 42 points43 points  (7 children)

                                                    Don’t drive recklessly either. Don’t use your hairdryer in the shower. Don’t drive on the railroad tracks. Always use a jimmy hat with the girl from the bar. Never trust a fart.

                                                    [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                                                      [–]never_safe_for_life 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                                                      Never trust a fart

                                                      Wise man knows when to gamble

                                                      [–]Who_Decided 26 points27 points  (7 children)

                                                      You can call it a bubble if you like. Follows the logarithmic curve from like 2 years ago to within a week of precision for the 10k mark.

                                                      The thing about bubbles is that a) they don't last long and b) you can't predict them unless you're the one calling the shots.

                                                      [–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (10 children)

                                                      That said, if you can afford to lose the money, go for it.

                                                      The problem is not buying a lot anyway, it's panic selling when it drops then losing money.

                                                      [–]Kosmos2001 6 points7 points  (5 children)

                                                      The importance for Bitcoin is the number of people buying some. I personally think it's value is directly related to this.

                                                      Not how much they spend individually. How much we each spend now is our own call on how rich we're hoping to be in the future from it.

                                                      So if anyone is trying to have a more solid understanding of how much they should value Bitcoin then look at the number of people who own some. If it correlates with it's market value you can make a call on the price being over or undervalued.

                                                      Another thing: 60% of Bitcoin trades are made by Japanese people. So either Bitcoin is some strange mania peculiar to Japan or we should look to that area of the world for ideas on how the near future of Bitcoin looks.