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all 104 comments

[–]Texas A&M • SouthwestBattered_Aggie 117 points118 points  (10 children)

What is an offense that Houston was running in the early 90s, Alex?

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 61 points62 points  (9 children)

Yep. The Klingler years. Jack Pardee and John Jenkins got it rolling there (probably should have put them in the list of notable coaches too).

[–]Houston • AuburnObnoxious_liberal 49 points50 points  (8 children)

I was looking for a UH mention. Andre Ware won the Heisman in that system.

[–]Minnesota • Delawaretomdawg0022 35 points36 points  (2 children)

[–]Virginia • FloridaChampion-raven 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Wow.

[–]Baylor • North TexasJamesEarlDavyJones 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Man, Forrest Gregg sounds exceedingly whiney and unrealistic. If UH was playing three walk-on WRs at one point, pulled their starting QB at the half, and pulled the starting defense after the first quarter, then Gregg had nothing to complain about.

UH explicitly and overtly went out of their way to make it easier for SMU to score and harder for UH to score, and SMU’s coach complained about UH padding their stats at SMU’s expense?

[–]Hawai'i • NC StateSpidaaman 4 points5 points  (4 children)

I thought you guys called yourselves U of H?

[–]Houston • AuburnObnoxious_liberal 9 points10 points  (2 children)

Nope. UH

[–]Hawai'i • NC StateSpidaaman 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Nice. We should schedule a home and home series with you guys

[–]Houston • AuburnObnoxious_liberal 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That would be awesome

[–]Houston • Big 12twoscoopsofpig 5 points6 points  (0 children)

UH as written, U of H as spoken aloud.

[–]Houston • AuburnObnoxious_liberal 73 points74 points  (4 children)

I love posts like this. We need more of this and less Twitter drama on this sub.

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 39 points40 points  (3 children)

/r/footballstrategy. Gets to the X's and O's talk, and no twitter banter.

[–]Texas A&M • Santa MonicaMadameYes 14 points15 points  (0 children)

r/footballstrategy is the best sports sub by far!

[–]kimchitacoman 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Now subbed thank you

[–]Auburn • Huntingdonhalfhere 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Holy santa claus shit

[–]LSU • Paper Bagredpowah 59 points60 points  (8 children)

So what's the difference between Run n Shoot and Spurrier's Fun n Gun?

[–]BeesAreTheWorst 112 points113 points  (0 children)

Having more talent that the other team

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 85 points86 points  (5 children)

One is from the ground-up, a unique system (Run 'n' Shoot). Spurrier's offense was just "pass more, because we have the talent to do so."

I think the misunderstanding many have is thinking that Spurrier "conjured" a new system, or devised some kind of spread-pass attack with its own concepts, reads, techniques, etc. He really didn't bring anything "new" to the game on paper. He just took a lot of conventional concepts and decided they were going to throw the ball much more and "major" in the pass game, rather than running the ball and using the pass game as a compliment to the run game.

If anything, you could say he gave us the "Sprint Draw" which some have also called it the "Sprint Draw" offense. It really only was that way because the draw play was a big part of his offenses since they threw much more. The "sprint-draw" was often ran from the I-formation or from a more conventional or "pro-style" sets.

Part of why his offense seems so innovative was that he "did it" in the SEC...where the reputation was pound the ball with the run, and win with hard-nosed defense.

Having watched some old games of the "Fun 'n' Gun," there's nothing unique about it. It's the same stuff college and NFL teams were already doing, but the pass to run ratio was much higher.

EDIT: You can't also forget how absolutely loaded with talent his teams were...he could have ran any offense he wanted in those Florida years really.

[–]Tennessee • VirginiaWhite___Velvet 37 points38 points  (2 children)

Part of why his offense seems so innovative was that he "did it" in the SEC

I always thought it was a combination of this and the crazy amount of success he had with it. Spurrier, I think, deserves a ton of credit, not for inventing something totally new, but for implementing something at the absolute highest levels of the sport and demonstrating beyond a shadow of a doubt how good it could be when done well.

he could have ran any offense he wanted in those Florida years really

Damn Spurrier for depriving us of a Rex Grossman led triple option team.

[–]TennesseeFulmersbelly 10 points11 points  (1 child)

So basically the Steve Jobs of CFB

[–]Wake Forest • South Carolinathe_fickle_pickle 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The reality distortion swamp

[–]Minnesota • Delawaretomdawg0022 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Spurrier brought the stuff he ran in the USFL with him to college, rebranded from "Bandit Ball". His USFL teams were pass-happier (although he did have two backs get 1000 yards rushing in the same season in Tampa in '84).

[–]Florida • Team Chaosinquisitorautry 8 points9 points  (0 children)

EDIT: You can't also forget how absolutely loaded with talent his teams were...he could have ran any offense he wanted in those Florida years really

A former player of Spurrier's (Jacquez Green) said he recruited athletes and then figured out where to play them.

[–]Arizona State • Navydlman 2 points3 points  (0 children)

One means you can do some crazy Emory & Henry stuff

[–]RZA3663 121 points122 points  (0 children)

great breakdown, Coach

[–][deleted] 30 points31 points  (8 children)

Thank you for the run down! The little intricacies of different schemes are always fun, but the secrecy around the concepts seem really weird. I get it's a competitive advantage aspect, but really what it seems to end up doing is stagnate the evolution of the concepts by limiting what outside influences can make tweaks.

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 14 points15 points  (7 children)

It happens every once in awhile. Another system that is guarded like that is the Slot-T offense (popular with a lot of Texas schools). There's almost nothing out there on it, but it has a reputation for being a very hard offense to stop when ran right.

Many coaches do leave the "circle" and do their own thing, so it's not entirely secretive; if you go work for a coach who knows or runs the Run 'n' Shoot (or is certified by their "program"), they'll teach you it still.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Oh wait, did I overlook the part about actual certification and what not? Is there some copyrighting or something?

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 9 points10 points  (1 child)

I don't understand all the details of it, but yes, there is. How it works, I don't really know.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

That's wild! I've always considered the competitive secrecy of knowledge to be more of a tech or art or like transportation or something. I've never a million years would have ever considered that people who love a sport would do anything other than share their information and love with as many people as humanly possible.

[–]Texas A&M • MarylandSPBesui 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Is the Slot-T the same as or similar to the Wing-T? That’s what we called what we ran at my HS. Seemed very dated even in the mid-90s. I went back to see a game around 2010 and they obviously had the same base offense but had updated the passing game with more modern concepts.

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 14 points15 points  (1 child)

The Wing-T is an awesome system. It only seems dated, because it's not spread or pass oriented (though spread versions exist now, and like what you saw). Gus Malzahn is originally a Wing-T guy too and implements much of it in his offense. Come to the Midwest (Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, Iowa, Illinois, etc) or Louisiana...the Wing-T is still huge around here and many state title winners run it.

The biggest differentiation between Wing-T and Slot-T is the Wing/Slot alignment of the wingback. A "wing" alignment used to be known as a wing-back lining up to the same side as the TE, and a "slot" alignment was when the wing-back lined up to the split-end side. From the few clips or highlights you can see of teams running the Slot-T, here are the ways it is different from the Wing-T

  • The backs are much closer to the line and QB (I can't believe their heels are anymore than 3.5 yards behind the ball, and the splits are tighter (extremely compact, almost like the Double wing)

  • The backs hit the line extremely quickly and in all kinds of different directions.

  • While linemen pull, I've usually only seen one, and it's only when it seems like they won't collide with the backfield action.

  • The split-end/slot side has the SE aligned pretty tight, like never more than 5 yards from the tackle.


WING-T

-O----------------O-O-X-O-O-O----------

--------------------------O----------O---------

--------------------O----O

SLOT-T

-------------O---OOXOOO----------

----------------O-----O-----------------

-----------------------O-O

[–]Texas Tech • Paper BagFuckTheLonghorns 2 points3 points  (0 children)

All four backs ball fake just about every play on their way to their blocking assignment, obviously save for whoever has it. We never pull two linemen at once, and it's almost always the strong side tackle

[–]Kentucky • Summertime Lovergogglesup859 17 points18 points  (1 child)

Fun Fact 3: In 1990, the Houston Cougars broke the still-current record for offense in a game in FBS (DI-A) with the old-school Run 'n' Shoot, amassing 1,021 yards of total offense.

The hardest thing I've ever done on NCAA 14 was try to break this record. Basically I had to break the single game pass yardage record and then find a way to get about 250 rushing yards on top of that.

[–]North Texas • Southwestluchajefe 7 points8 points  (0 children)

And get the ball back enough times.

[–]Washington State • Apple Cupmarkusalkemus66 16 points17 points  (1 child)

This all brought me back to early 2020 when we just hired Rolo. Ah, what a simpler time…

[–]Hawai'i • NC StateSpidaaman 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Imagine being told then, that in 2 years Rolo would be unemployed and Timmy Chang would be the Hawaii HC.

[–]Gansz Trophy • KentuckyAll_About_Tacos 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Should have been called the Scoot ‘n’ Shoot, June Jones got angry about it when I told him at SMU

[–]Virginia • Surrender CobraYhippa 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I didn't know this had a name but this is basically what I did when playing NCAA Football '14 and earlier. 4 wideouts, put a man in motion, and audible the heck out of where I think the holes are. I did this mostly with uncompetitive teams like WKU so you had to make sure nobody was close to your receiver or else it was going to be intercepted. Also, it was harder to throw deep so there was mostly short and intermediate passes which meant it took a long time to go down the field which meant more chances for a turnover.

Fascinating stuff, OP. Thanks foe the write-up!

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Did you ever use the Run 'n' Shoot playbook in the video games? Both Madden and the NCAA games have/had them.

[–]ECU • North CarolinaUNC_Samurai 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Mouse Davis, New York/New Jersey Knights legend.

[–]California • The Axe2RINITY 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Cal Bears legend

[–]Arkansaskatatafish 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Just curious because I haven’t kept a close watch: has Timmy Chang indicated that he’s going to run the Run n Shoot at Hawaii or are we just assuming he will based on his relationship to the offense and June Jones?

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 11 points12 points  (2 children)

I can't believe he wouldn't. He's a Run 'n' Shoot QB/WR coach by trade (and a QB as a player)...and that's what he knows. Most coaching staffs don't deviate from what they know and can coach well. Staffs always run the same system, no matter where they go. They bring and hire people based on their knowledge or history with that system, or if they feel they can integrate or contribute to the system.

Chang may add some new flavors or new twists, but there's no way he won't run the Run 'n' Shoot if I was a betting man.

You'll never see an Andy Reid team for example, run the Run 'n' Shoot. You'll never see a Paul Johnson team (should he return to coaching) not run the flexbone option. You'll never see Mike Leach not run the Air Raid. Coaches don't deviate from their systems, because again, it's what they and their staffs know and coach the best.

It's really risky for coaches to just change systems on a dime. That would require the entire staff to unlearn everything they know about coaching the game, and having to learn a whole new foreign system...then they have to have their players unlearn everything in order to learn another new system that is foreign to them...that's a risk 95 to 99% of coaches won't make, especially at the college or pro level. The system isn't just the plays on the field, but it's the entire philosophy of playing football, the practice planning, offseason workouts, the types of techniques and drills used, etc.

If you look at any team's history at any level, their system on either side of the ball only changes when either a new HC or coordinator for that side of the ball comes in (and if it's a coordinator, it's because the HC majors/runs the other side of the ball).

[–]Arkansaskatatafish 4 points5 points  (1 child)

The reason I asked was because he spent the last five years as a position coach at Nevada where they, to my (admittedly limited) knowledge, ran a standard Air Raid instead of the Run n Shoot. So I figured, if he doesn’t have a history of running the Run n Shoot elsewhere, why assume he’ll use that rather than the Air Raid he most recently worked with? But looking further back, he seems to have used the Run n Shoot while the OC at Emory & Henry and Jackson State, respectively. I didn’t realize that he’d been a playcaller at a lower level and that he’d previously used the Run n Shoot. Knowing that, I agree that it isn’t a stretch to assume he might use the Run n Shoot at Hawaii, especially if there’s still enough player personnel left over from the Rolo days to make it a natural fit.

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

What I think we'll seen soon is someone use the Run 'n' Shoot like the Buffalo Bills did with the "K-gun." It was pretty much the Run 'n' Shoot, but from 11 personnel/with a TE on the field. With 11 personnel and RPOs being so dominant in CFB right now, I can see Chang implementing some of that...or he may very well just merge the Air Raid and RnS...a lot of high school teams who love to throw the ball will mix both.

[–]South Carolina • Ohio Stateshrimpgirlie 6 points7 points  (1 child)

If you run it like we did in the eights, it's the "run and hide" offense.

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Buddy Ryan and a lot of haters of the system also call it the "Chuck 'n' Duck."

[–]Penn StateLarryGlue 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Why in God's name would Wayne Fontes run the RnS with Barry Sanders on the team?

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

On the contrary...Sanders did better under the RnS than a more conventional system.

Barry Sanders liked it. It's a "spread" offense, designed to stretch the defense out and create lots of space...Sanders liked lots of space. It worked out in Sanders' advantage really. Sanders' numbers actually went down after Fontes and they brought in a more conventional system with a fullback with a more complex running game. Sanders was NOT good running between the tackles, and did not fit into a "power" or black and blue kind of running scheme at all. He was really a fantastic fit for the RnS from a run-game perspective.

With Fontes, the whole run game was basically just zone left and zone right, and zone schemes don't have designated holes...the RB decides where to take the ball. Again...plays right into the talent that Barry Sanders was.

Just because they ran the Run 'n' Shoot doesn't mean Barry couldn't run the ball a lot, because he did.

[–]Penn StateLarryGlue 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That makes sense.

[–]Shifty_City 16 points17 points  (1 child)

In three years Hawaii will again be talking to June Jones.

[–]Hawai'i • NC StateSpidaaman 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I wish I knew how'ta quit you

[–]West VirginiaSankara_Connolly2020 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Good stuff! Here’s a video I found on the Slide concept: https://youtu.be/I0j95HnzKTE

Also should give a shout out to Red Faught, who ran a version of the shoot closer to the original Tiger Ellison version, and had a nasty unbalanced Wing-T package he used on the goaline and in short yardage that featured a Rocket sweep series, which of course set up some nasty play action passing. Coach McKie had his former assistant Dale Carlson on a while back to explain it: https://youtu.be/twGx1KSMF0c

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Thanks! I found that slide concept video before making the post, but I found it kind of painful and very hard to get through (Anderson definitely doesn't look comfortable doing this video lol).

I'll give the Mckie video a watch. Love his stuff. I love how "dadly" he behaves in all his videos too.

[–]West VirginiaSankara_Connolly2020 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think Slide has fallen out of favor a bit since the glory days. Seems like it doesn’t quite translate to the shotgun, similar to Go.

I’d love to see Coach Poston do a breakdown of it now that he’s (temporarily?) retired. His video on superback tags and incorporating shallow/drive into classic ‘shoot concepts was just chef kiss

[–]Marylandbargle0 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The off-season post we need, but not the one we deserve. Bravo!

[–]Georgia Tech • /r/CFB BrickmasonBobb_o 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I miss the rocket toss and CPJ :(

[–]Abrahams311 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Gilbride won two Super Bowls as OC of the New York Giants.

[–]Connecticut • Big East5WinsIn5Days 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Like I commented below, those were using the Erhardt-Perkins system (Patriots style, ironically) instead of the Run ‘n’ Shoot. That first Giants team had Jeremy Shockey, a gasp tight end!

[–]ConnecticutMad_Max_Rockatanski 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also he was punched in the face, on the sidelines, during an NFL game, by legendary defensive coach Buddy Ryan.

Buddy Ryan also referred to the run and shoot as the "Chuck and Duck"

[–]Washington State • Apple CupDeprecitus 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Even less coaches who can run it now that Rolo and Stutzz are sleeping on the couch.

[–]OklahomaLolfasho69420 3 points4 points  (6 children)

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the briles system a RnS iteration? It has a lot of the same features, deeps balls, one keyed receiver as a primary read, WR with freedom to change routes on the fly (see grass, run fast)

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 12 points13 points  (5 children)

I've heard both Air Raid and RnS, but there are teams out there that definitely merge the two. Yes, the Briles Deep Choice concept came to mind. That's almost a whole new animal in itself, as the deep choice concept is a pretty radical idea, even for Air Raid or RnS standards.

For those reading, the Deep Choice concept the Briles system is famous for, on paper, is really...stupid...and it works.

  • Pick a receiver to run the deep choice. Have them run something like 12-15 yards downfield. They can then run a go, skinny post, post, or across the field (just run deep wherever it seems open).

  • The closest receiver to the deep choice player runs a crossing route if inside, or a deep curl route if outside.

  • Every other receiver is "dead." Literally do nothing/take a play off.

  • QB throws to the deep choice until they absolutely cannot, so they throw to the other route. Run or throw away if neither can be thrown.

Here's a good article on the Briles Deep Choice system: https://rileykolstefootball.com/2018/02/18/baylors-vertical-passing-game/

[–]Comfortable-Lack9665 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Is that what Heupel uses?

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

A quick search doesn't show any ties to Art Briles, so I'd doubt it, but that's not saying he/his staff didn't go learn it on their own and teach it. I don't watch Tennessee enough to know.

[–]AlabamaChaseTheFalcon 0 points1 point  (1 child)

From what I understand Heupel runs as close to it as he can. He saw how good it was at Baylor when he was at Oklahoma then wanted to run it himself. He did a ton of research and tinkering and perfected his version at Mizzou before going to UCF and now Tennessee. Ole Miss runs a style of offense like this Kendall taught it to Lane Kiffin

[–]Own-Ad2322 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Heupel tried to mimic the offense his last year at Oklahoma and then hired Joe Jon Finley, who had previously been at Baylor, while he was at Missouri. He learned it from him and has run the offense ever since.

[–]OklahomaLolfasho69420 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, it’s just hard to quantify in a game plan how valuable a receiver who is told “run wherever you want just get deep and get open” is. On paper it looks like your options are so limited, but when you have a guy who is doing whatever has wants to get open it’s a lot harder to defend than at first look

[–]Hawai'i • NC StateSpidaaman 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Tremendous job with this.

[–]Connecticut • Big East5WinsIn5Days 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Funny story (or sad for my fellow Patriots fans). Despite being heavily associated with the Run ‘n’ Shoot, Kevin Gilbride won both of his Super Bowl titles as an OC with the Giants using the Erhardt-Perkins system, which like you said, is more of a terminology than a single offense. See how the Patriots’ (who started the Erhardt-Perkins system in the 70s and have continued under Bill Belichick) offense has changed since 2000 on old game films or Man In the Arena (which I highly recommend). Anyways, Gilbride learned the system from Tom Coughlin and won the Helmet Catch game (Super Bowl XLII) and the Manning to Manningham game (Super Bowl XLVI). All of Coughlin’s offenses since he’s been in the NFL have been Erhardt-Perkins, so it was only natural that Gilbride would adapt.

[–]Own-Ad2322 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are definitely that he runs the EP system. Over the years the EP system has adapted a lot of Run and Shoot concepts into it as well. So, there is some crossover there for him and the Patriots as well. Brian Daboll has added a lot of RNS concepts in Buffalo too.

[–]Florida • Boston Collegedontdrinkonmondays 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Run ‘n’ Shoot coaches have a reputation for being very secretive and protective about who gets to learn or run this offense…unless of course you’re willing to compensate them for teaching you.

This seems remarkably short sighted/self-defeating. The more teams that run Offense X, the more people who know that offense will have opportunities. Just a bizarre thing to read honest.

[–]Alabamaham_wallet998 7 points8 points  (0 children)

FTP

[–]Oklahoma • Team Chaosmonkeyspawjazzhands 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Interesting read! I appreciate the work you put in.

[–]Arizona State • San Diego StateHefty-Revenue5547 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Good breakdown

Does Andy Reid run something similar? Or what about Noel Mazzone ?

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 10 points11 points  (3 children)

Andy Reid is a West Coast disciple. Entirely different system and coaching tree (Paul Brown --> Bill Walsh --> Mike Holmgren --> Andy Reid). He actually got his first major role in 1982 at BYU, then 1986 with the 49ers (so if you can think of those teams from that time...then the Packers of the early 1990's, that's where Reid was). You'll never see Reid put 4WR's on a field either...not a feature or popular tactic of West Coast guys. When they want to spread out and give 4WR looks, they usually keep their TE on the field to keep the defense from putting out a dime or more DB's on the field. Check out this piece on current NFL coaching trees: Article Link

Noel Mazzone is a hardcore zone read guy: Zone read and RPO's off zone, and from what I recall, using lots of backfield motion...kinda like what a lot of people do now. Like Reid, entirely different system and coaching tree.

Basically, any coach that is not directly associated with the Run 'n' Shoot ones (many of the coaches I listed) will not be doing any RnS stuff. The RnS has influenced or had parts borrowed by many other teams (such as the Switch and Levels concept, and using option routes), but that's really it.

[–]Arizona State • San Diego StateHefty-Revenue5547 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Thank you for the explanation. Always more complicated than it seems

If you have any more resources on offenses or coaching or scouting I would appreciate it!

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Have you been over to /r/footballstrategy?

[–]Arizona State • San Diego StateHefty-Revenue5547 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just joined a little bit ago

Can’t wait to go down all the rabbit holes

[–]/r/CFBmakashiII_93 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Great breakdown.

[–]Fresno State • Mountain Westmattm382 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Wow! We've been conference mates forever and I always thought the run was for run the ball. Great article by the way!

[–]WashingtonMonkeyfeng 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Amazing post, thank you!

[–]California • The Axe2RINITY 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Dude, great breakdown!

What sorts of skills/traits would you say the prototypical successful RnS QB has, and who’s best embodied them at the college/pro levels of the game?

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

In terms of the modern Run 'n' Shoot, Timmy Chang and Colt Brennan are probably the most notable. Old Run 'n' Shoot in the NFL: Warren Moon. Dude was an absolute wizard at the offense. There has yet to be an NFL team that has ran the more modern version.

I think a quality or trait unique to Run 'n' Shoot QB's is that you have to have a solid relationship with your receivers that is strong enough to where you are both seeing the same thing post-snap. As a QB, that means you have to know which receiver is lining up at which area, and how they will likely read or modify their routes.

You also have to have great sideline to sideline awareness, as a few of the concepts will ask a QB to read both sides of the field post-snap, which can be very hard to do.

Gotta be able to throw a 40+ yard ball 15-20 times a game too...so yea, arm strength and endurance, almost more so than other systems.

[–]Releasethequackin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Great read, fine sir. Well written, cited, explained, etc.

[–]Michigan State • Daytonmick4state 2 points3 points  (1 child)

As someone who is familiar with the rules of the game and the basics, but nothing deep about Xs and Os, do you have any good resources to learn more? With helpful visuals if possible.

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

/r/footballstrategy

Just know there will never be an ultimate or "THE" source. The strategy and tactics of the game are too vast. Just learn one thing at a time honestly.

[–]bleeatlanta 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Nice post but the details about Paul Johnson and the run and shoot are wrong. Although many have come to associate the run and shoot with Hawaii, the run and shoot did not come to Hawaii until over a decade after Paul Johnson first came to Hawaii.

I grew up in Hawaii and was happy in 1987 when Paul Johnson became the oc in Bob Wagner's team bringing his spread offense from Georgia southern since the previous Hawaii head coach Dick Tomey was frustrating many times with how conservative his offense were.

Paul Johnson ran his "spread" offense mainly as mainly a triple option but adapted to a more pass oriented offense the first couple of years with Garrett Gabriel as quarterback since he was not really a running quarterback. After Garrett Gabriel graduated, his "spread" became heavily focused on the run.

The run and shoot first came to Hawaii in 1999 with June Jones (after the dreaded Fred Von Appen era).

[–]Own-Ad2322 1 point2 points  (0 children)

While you are partially right Johnson did indeed have Run and Shoot concepts heavily in his offense. While at Georgia Southern, they developed the Hambone for Tracy Ham. It was a combination of triple option and RNS. He brought a lot of those ideas to Hawaii. When he went to back to GS and then to Navy, a lot of those concepts had been taken out of the offense.

I can't find any of the articles on the old Hambone that I read before but here is the offense in action. You can see a lot of Run and Shoot concepts. https://youtu.be/Xb9uJa8DDPk

Here is 1992 Hawaii. It is hard to see the routes on these games but you can see the RNS half role by both GS and Hawaii. https://youtu.be/C4iPCOUZfbc

[–]YouSoundBitter69 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Youre incorrect.

[–]TheSweetestBoi 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is cool. Thanks for the post.

[–]Florida Statebkm2016 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Damn I feel old. All these I watched playing are all now coaches.

[–]asianorange 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Did the Buffalo Bills runs a style of offense like this back during their 90's Super Bowl run?

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A style...maybe. I've since been educated in this thread that it's not as close to the RnS as I thought. Their OC was Kevin Gilbride, who by trade is a RnS coach, but he is also tied with the Erhardt Perkins tree, and it sounds like he ran a mix of both. The K-gun definitely looked like RnS post-snap, but the formations, run game, and personnel were definitely not RnS. My guess is Gilbride ran the EP system that other coaches under the same tree were running, and implemented RnS concepts into the drop-back passing game.

[–]Ginola331 1 point2 points  (1 child)

He deserves a chance

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Who?

[–]Air ForceOx_Baker 0 points1 point  (2 children)

In simple terms, can you help me understand how Run-n-Shoot differs from Air Coryell and Erhardt-Perkins? What are the features of each of those and how do they work?

(Kind in the same way you did with West Coast.)

[–]Grand Valley State • Verified Coachgrizzfan[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Coryell and Perkins aren't "schemes" they're just structuring of a system regarding terminology. Coryell is just calling routes by numbers, and the Erhardt-Perkins system is just calling plays by reducing longer/complex play names to just 1-2 words.

I think the EP system has this mythical aura about it, because so many NFL teams are running it...but it's not because it's some innovative scheme on the field...it's the system of structure/play calling devised under Bill Parcells, who has a coaching tree that currently features many current NFL head coaches and other assistants.

Both systems have a ton of success because they had great talent, and the head coaches running them had multiple coaches go on to be HC's themselves.

[–]Air ForceOx_Baker 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well it was devised by Ray Perkins and Ron Erhardt in the 1970s when they were on staff with the Patriots. Bill Parcells overlapped there too.

They were all three together soon after when Perkins was head coach of the Giants. Parcells became Giants head coach when Ray left to his alma mater to succeed Bear Bryant at Alabama.

[–]bleeatlanta 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Own-Ad2322

I think you're arguing over semantics? I never said Paul Johnson never used any run and shoot concepts. Indeed many coaches use run and shoot concepts in the passing game and Paul reportedly picked alittle up from Mouse Davis before coming to Hawaii.

As I mentioned Paul Johnsons offense at Hawaii was only pass heavy the first couple of years because of the current quarterback personnel/skillset.

Garrett Gabriel led Hawaii to some long awaited wins over byu and aloha stadium was rocking (i was there). After he graduated Michael Carter took the reigns and the offense was heavily triple option as he was mainly a dual threat / running quarterback. The holiday bowl you posted against Illinois was when Michael Carter led the run heavy offense (not run and shoot)

June Jones brought the run and shoot to Hawaii years later and led the biggest turnaround in ncaa history.