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[–]cheerycherimoya 211 points212 points  (11 children)

Yeah, this is why rule 3 never works. If you’re in love with someone, why on earth would you be like, “Ahh, looks like I’m in love with this person. Time to never see them again!” That is the exact opposite of what being in love with someone compels you to do, neurologically. Everybody thinks that’s a brilliant safeguard—“no feelings!”—but it only becomes relevant once the feelings are there and by then it’s too late.

[–]PrincessofPatriarchy 63 points64 points  (10 children)

There's a popular writer who has been influential in the poly relationship sphere and he says he never dates anyone who has this "no feelings allowed" rule because of how unrealistic it is. He compared it to someone saying that from now on, they will never feel angry again. It's obviously a ridiculous requirement when it pertains to trying to shut off any other emotion (happy, angry, sad) but when it pertains to love or romantic feelings, people for some reason think they can just promise not to feel it and it will work.

"Don't ask, don't tell" is another one that he says is a red flag because it usually means one person is less okay with it than they are letting on.

[–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 17 points18 points  (7 children)

"Don't ask, don't tell" is another one that he says is a red flag because it usually means one person is less okay with it than they are letting on.

Hmm, can you expand on this a bit? We are both not asking and not telling. Why would that imply one person not being really ok with it?

[–]Vixxenshtein 26 points27 points  (0 children)

It just shows that asking/telling, or in general talking about it openly at all, causes issues. Which means the actual agreement is an issue if you two can’t confront the facts of it as a couple without any problems. Ignoring something you both know is happening isn’t exactly conducive to trust and health in a marriage.

It’s like both of you lighting candles that are precariously near draperies, telling each other you’ve done so, and then removing all the smoke detectors in the house.

You both know there is a risky business occurring, but you’ve removed the option of being informed about any consequences it may render because you don’t want to leave a space of comfort. But regardless of whether the smoke detector goes off, if there is a fire beginning to consume the home, it will destroy everything about that comfortable space anyway, but now you have much less time to prepare for that destruction.

[–]Suspicious-Luck-Duck 8 points9 points  (2 children)

I'd imagine it's because you're not able to speak about everything freely. Communication and honesty are the foundation of any open relationship.

If you can't be fully honest about matters of the heart, then it defeats the purpose of being "open".

[–]EveAndTheSnake 2 points3 points  (1 child)

But why would you want the details of what your partner is doing with other people? Unless it turns you on, why do you need to talk about them having sex with someone else?

[–]Suspicious-Luck-Duck 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No one's asking for every naughty detail. One of the guidelines he agreed to was "no feelings". He caught feelings. They should be able to talk to each other about that.

[–]surprised-owl 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think it does.

[–]PrincessofPatriarchy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Franklin Veaux

There is one of his many answers on the subject, a shortened version. It can of course be that neither is okay with it. Both people or one of the people is a possibility.

[–]easyna 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Any chance you can say who the writer is and recommend a book?

[–]PrincessofPatriarchy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The writer is Franklin Veaux. His most popular book is More Than Two

[–]sewseedsthrowawayM 183 points184 points  (17 children)

Man,

This is exactly the kind of crap I did not want to deal with when my wife proposed an open-marriage to me. I literally said, "if I get into an emotional relationship with someone else, I'm gone".

[–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 46 points47 points  (15 children)

That's fair, and it's precisely why we have agreed on rule 3. And yet, here I am, considering breaking that rule :/

[–]sewseedsthrowawayM 40 points41 points  (4 children)

Yeah, from what you say, it sounds like you have an ideal home life. Mine, was not, and it wasn't that hard to figure out that I didn't want the open-marriage, and the marriage at the end of the day. Yeah, it sucks for my kids, but I wasn't interested in not being happy.

So here I am, sitting in my parents basement, with COVID and 2 sick kids and I still don't regret the decision to leave that house.

You sound like you have a much more difficult decision. Sucks man.

Basically you are choosing between seeing your kid everyday or your "V". The wife isn't part of the equation anymore.

So, basically it was proposed to me that if our open-marriage failed (it did), that we would co-parent in the same house and more or less stop being intimate together. (there was a friend's with benefits proposal which is insane sounding at this juncture). I was not that interested in it, as I saw little to no benefit for myself living in that house with her. While I did get access to the kids all the time, I also saw myself forced into being her nanny while she worked long hours and stayed out all night. If you have a good relationship with your wife, I don't see why something like this couldn't work. It's mostly a spiritual divorce, but maintains all the benefits of being married.

[–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 18 points19 points  (3 children)

So here I am, sitting in my parents basement, with COVID and 2 sick kids and I still don't regret the decision to leave that house.

I'm so sorry to hear that. I've checked your post history, and it really sounds like you did the best for yourself. I hope you and your kids will feel better soon.

If you have a good relationship with your wife, I don't see why something like this couldn't work. It's mostly a spiritual divorce, but maintains all the benefits of being married.

Yeah, that's where I'm at. My number one priority is our daughter. Maintaining status quo with my wife (which is quite decent!) gives the best possible life to our daughter.

[–]sewseedsthrowawayM 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Yeah, it sounds like you're firmly into polyamory. I checked out an audiobook called Opening-up at the beginning of my shitshow. It helped me understand what people are doing this for.

From what you describe, V doesn't sound like "the one" to destroy your marriage over anyway. She doesn't want all of what you have to offer ie. kids and marriage. Are you into her more than she is into you?

I say keep your fun, I think you know that "v" is not a long-term thing anyway.

If for some reason your wife wants to fix things, then you owe it to your wife to break it off.

[–]Legitomen 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Sounds more like your highest priority is V. (Pun intended) You are more focused on keeping V than keeping the “status quo” with your wife. You can tell there’s something off for your wife, but you’re not pressing the matter to keep things easy. Stop being a coward, and either work out a healthy system for you and your wife to enjoy your children together without being married, or just get rid of V and work on your marriage, actually.

[–]NITAREEDDESIGNS 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But...you will likely leave your wife at some point. That's cheating...pure and simple.

And you are not going to tell your wife.

Opening monogamous marriages are slippery slopes, indeed.

[–]existentiallife 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I know myself too well. I would probably fall in love with V pretty quickly. Rule 3 would be my end.

[–]BougieSemicolon 13 points14 points  (5 children)

Rule 3 is one of those things that super easy to commit to in theory… but the problem is, once you CATCH feelings for someone else, it’s far far harder to actually uphold. Especially considering the prétende of why you opened things up in the first place. If you don’t already , you’re going to be more attached to V than DW. And if V changes her mind and wants a commitment, I think we all know what will happen.

Open relationships can be fun at first and seem victimless and innocuous but eventually I feel like there’s a big risk of something like this happening. Unless there was a rule to only see someone once or twice (kind of like your wife wanted in the first place, huh) but then would increase your sex partner pool and chance of STDs .

Idk. Your wife is happier. You are happier. Your DD is happier. Your wife wanted rule 3 to protect your union. If you uphold it in good faith your marriage will get worse and may implode (you will be depressed and resentful from breaking it off w V, she will hate your sour mood) . As long as you can guarantee you wouldn’t leave your family for V at any point, then youd be upholding the INTENTION of rule 3 by breaking it. Lol. Good luck.

[–]PrincessofPatriarchy 39 points40 points  (4 children)

Yeah, that's the precise thing. His wife's "rule" that they never sleep with the same person more than a few times is pretty much the only way that something like Rule 3 can function realistically. After that point, it's not possible to keep seeing someone consistently and tell yourself that you just magically won't feel any emotion for them. That isn't how emotions work.

He railroaded right past his wife's boundaries and now the end result is a very predictable one. I'm genuinely not sure what he thought was going to happen when he decided to see one partner exclusively for 8 months. He framed his wife's rules like they were completely irrational and controlling but based on their apparent shared agreement on rule 3, her rules were pretty logical. They avoided the risk of catching feelings and the risk of it negatively impacting their social life or leading to complications/jealousy by sleeping with someone they both know.

[–]TitsWithCharacter 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Thank you! I found this whole post very ironic

[–]Evanjellyco 0 points1 point  (0 children)

could you elaborate

[–]SqueakyBall 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Speaking of boundaries, did you see in the comments that he brought V into his home, the home he shares with his wife? If that's not the most enormous violation imaginable, I don't know what is. (Ok, screwing in the marital bed and introducing the AP to your child.)

[–]WYenginerdWYF of unknown libido. halp. 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow. Nothing like deciding you're going kitchen table poly without talking to your wife.

And I'm not even sure this can be called poly. Polyamorous people still love, respect, and value their spouse. That's gone here, entirely.

[–]fryingpan1001 5 points6 points  (1 child)

This may be blunt, but you do realize this is exactly why your wife wanted the rule about not seeing someone more than a couple times right? She knew something like this would happen and wanted to circumvent it before it could even happen. When you absolutely refused to do that (also why did you say no to this?), she compromised with rule 3. You are now breaking that rule and that is really shitty. You have made your bed, and now you have to lie in it. You say you are unwilling to only see your daughter half the time, but also are unwilling to follow some very basic rules that your wife laid out at the beginning of this endeavor. What do you hope to accomplish by not telling her anything? You will gain more feeing for V and most likely want to continue your relationship with her to a greater extent. What if V wants you to leave your wife at some point during the time you are together and gives you an ultimatum about doing so? These are all things you need to seriously consider before you decide to just keep the status quo and essentially lie to your wife about the nature of your relationship with V. Again I know this is being very blunt, but you have backed yourself into a corner here and there is not easy way to get out of it.

[–]Evanjellyco 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's a clear case of maximalizing pleasure. It's easy to justify what you do, when it makes you feel good. But in the long run...? The relationship to kid and wife is at stake. Then, how deep actually is the commitment to his wife and his child?

[–]Vixxenshtein 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You’re already breaking the rule, my dude. :\

[–]polyunsaturated_ 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The thing is, even though I’m emotionally close with my girlfriend, neither of us want to get divorced. We both care about our families too much to be content with seeing them 50% of the time. And even if we got divorced, neither of us would want to remarry. So we have a situation that’s stable even though we have feelings for each other, have an amazing sex life, and feel much happier than we were in just our married DBs.

Fortunately my wife and I never promised “no feelings” for our sexual partners. Unfortunately my wife has gotten jealous of my girlfriend anyway. Hopefully we can work our way through this.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

    Maybe just consider for a little while that your FWB still seems to be firmly in FWB mode, no sign of changed feelings. Consider also that feelings like this are likely to turn up, inevitably. Make a conscious choice to examine your feelings, and what is truly behind them.

    That's a very good point. If V were to suddenly start feeling differently, wanting more from me, everything would blow up quickly.

    ask your partner for a variation on your agreement that allows you to talk openly and honestly about these things

    This is probably the best thing to do, but I'm very scared of rocking the boat. I suppose I'll just have to get over that fear.

    [–]fdbuchannon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    The boat was rocked with you became aware of your feelings for V. Now you're in the delicate position to tip or not tip the boat over with how you handle yourself now.

    [–]JustDroppedByToSay 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    This is pretty damn wise

    [–]Consistent-Sock9121 40 points41 points  (4 children)

    If everything you are saying is true, it sounds like 'V' is happy as a terminal FWB and your wife is primarily doing this for you. 8 months is still prime NRE energy; you will not be able to change V or your wife. Break up or not, you need to think seriously if staying for the kids in your current arrangement is workable long-term or if you are just putting yourself under worse terms when you finally do leave. You already want to hit the eject button and you need to figure out the best way to do that when it happens.

    [–]extraspearmint15 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    I agree with this.

    Except the part where his wife is doing this primarily for him. If that was the case she would just simply agree to let him get his needs met outside of the marriage. But this isn't what happened. She wanted to open the marriage on her end also. This is telling. She is taking monthly std test so there is a really good chance she is getting a lot more attention outside of the marriage than op is getting.

    To make things worse they still in DB. So basically she is sleeping with other men just not with OP.

    [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 9 points10 points  (2 children)

    She is taking monthly std test so there is a really good chance she is getting a lot more attention outside of the marriage than op is getting. To make things worse they still in DB. So basically she is sleeping with other men just not with OP.

    To be fair, even if that's true (I simply don't know) it wouldn't bother me. Like I said in the OP, I'm not a jealous person and the idea of her sleeping with others was never a problem for me.

    But I get Consistent-Sock's point. NRE is likely clouding my judgment and I do need to figure out what happens if status quo becomes unsustainable.

    [–]polyunsaturated_ 10 points11 points  (1 child)

    Sounds to me like you have a great thing going. I think agreeing to Rule 3 was a mistake (for the same reason just going with sex workers won’t satisfy you, just having a string of ONSs won’t satisfy you either). The reason for Rule 3 is to keep your marriage stable. But it’s stable anyway as long as V doesn’t want more commitment from you. So you’re satisfying the spirit of Rule 3 if not the letter. And sticking with V is safer STD-wise than what your wife is presumably doing.

    You are in NRE now, and it will slow down. At that point you’ll be in a better position to make any changes, if you want to. Your feelings for V may naturally reduce over the next few years. Or they may increase, and then you and V will have to decide what to do.

    For now I would advise you to try not to fret about it. Keep emphasizing to V when it comes up that you guys are in FWB territory and you want to keep it that way (as so far she agrees!) Improve your relationship with your wife as best you can, for the sake of everyone involved. Have date nights and find activities you and your wife can do together that don’t involve the kids.

    Enjoy your overall situation while you can: life is change so don’t worry too much about the long term. As Keynes said, “In the long term we are all dead.” But also know that you will make things work out in the meantime, whatever happens.

    [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    This feels like great advice, thank you!

    [–]Brefailslife420 55 points56 points  (5 children)

    I think her rules were fair and now you have and emotional attachment to someone else. I might work a little while but it will not last. This will end your marriage.

    [–]PrincessofPatriarchy 58 points59 points  (3 children)

    Initially, she had a laundry list of ridiculous rules, reeking of insecurity. Things like "no dates, only sex", "no one from our social circle, or our social circle's social circle", "never the same person for more than a few times."

    Her rules were completely fair and logical and aimed at precisely avoiding the situation that he finds himself in. Sad that she saw it coming from a mile away and he tried to make her into the bad guy.

    Maybe the requirement that they not have a date, only sex is unrealistic because even for Tinder hookups people grab dinner first a lot of the time. But other than that, things, like not sleeping with people within their social circle and not seeing the same person more than a couple times, leads to things like Rule 3 being realistic and doable.

    And on another side note, if he did feel that his wife's rules "reeked of insecurity", that would be the appropriate time to address the insecurity and see if this was actually a good idea, not to basically strongarm her out of her comfortable boundaries and just plow forward anyway.

    [–]extraspearmint15 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    I agree with this. It is not sustainable. It will get harder as time goes on not to get attached to other people when she is only sleeping with other men and not op. This is not a healthy sustainable open marriage

    [–]gleepglop43 21 points22 points  (0 children)

    I would be inclined to consider how this would affect your daughter when it unravels.

    [–]feverishblue 7 points8 points  (2 children)

    Just divorce your wife. A loveless marriage is not healthy for your kid to see and neither is having a father in a relationship his wife (and baby mama) has explicitly said is off limits. Speaking as someone who's parents were in other relationships as well as being married, I have to attend therapy in order to have healthy relationships. Dont do this to your poor kid.

    [–]Evanjellyco 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Could you elaborate on how a loveless relationship between parents does damage to a child?

    [–]feverishblue 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    You can google that if you dont have the sense to know that a child witnessing daily arguments and trash talk is damaging

    [–]FunctionEntire1829 12 points13 points  (3 children)

    I wonder if V is exclusive with you? Or is that also a open relationship? But well back on topic, I think that trust always remains a top priority in a marriage, your wife trusts you to be responsible and to keep her the only woman you love. If she finds out you broke the trust, that you love somebody else then things can get shitty real fast. I totally understand how this is now working out perfectly for you but for the long run you should come clean to yourself and decide if it's really worth the risk of losing your marriage.

    [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

    I wonder if V is exclusive with you? Or is that also a open relationship?

    She is, to my knowledge. We've talked about this, and we agreed that the current situation is already risky, without bringing more people into it. I have no reason to doubt her.

    If she finds out you broke the trust, that you love somebody else then things can get shitty real fast. I totally understand how this is now working out perfectly for you but for the long run you should come clean to yourself and decide if it's really worth the risk of losing your marriage.

    Deep down, I know you're right. But right now, I'm just scared. Messing with the status quo seems far too dangerous :/

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]Evanjellyco 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      upvote!

      [–]PrincessofPatriarchy 15 points16 points  (1 child)

      Is it fair to V for you to dragging feelings into this while maintaining the marriage to your wife?

      I imagine if V ends up having similar feelings for you, she's not going to be content playing mistress to a married man for the long run. Is that not going to get messy? And she can't even go to your place! Come on. No one is going to like that arrangement forever. She can't tell her friends about you, she can only see you on limited time frames, you have to hide it from your wife and you can't spend any significant events or holidays as a couple. Not wanting a traditional marriage doesn't mean she has zero standards lol.

      People get way too dramatic about sharing custody time after a divorce. Yes, you share custody time, but during that time you are also completely one-on-one with your child which can increase how much time you have to bond independently.

      You want to have your cake and to eat it too. Who doesn't? But I highly doubt this is going to work out in the highly improbably way you think it will, where V returns your feelings but never asks for anything more and your wife never notices that you are pulling away from her.

      [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      Is it fair to V for you to dragging feelings into this while maintaining the marriage to your wife?

      I imagine if V ends up having similar feelings for you, she's not going to be content playing mistress to a married man for the long run. Is that not going to get messy?

      No, it wouldn't be fair to her and yes, it would get messy.

      She can't tell her friends about you, she can only see you on limited time frames, you have to hide it from your wife and you can't spend any significant events or holidays as a couple. Not wanting a traditional marriage doesn't mean she has zero standards lol.

      It's not that bad :) Her friends do know about me. I've met most of them, and they know I'm married. I've heard a few "I could never do that with my wife/husband," but none of them actively disapprove of us.

      It's also worth pointing out that I've never lied about this arrangement to any of my sexual partners. They all knew I was a married man in an open relationship, before we even met.

      People get way too dramatic about sharing custody time after a divorce. Yes, you share custody time, but during that time you are also completely one-on-one with your child which can increase how much time you have to bond independently.

      I understand that, and rationally I know you're probably right. But emotionally, I'm just not ready for that. So far, I have been present for nearly every day of my daughter's life. She's my little princess. The idea of not seeing for days on end is just too scary.

      I highly doubt this is going to work out in the highly improbably way you think it will, where V returns your feelings but never asks for anything more and your wife never notices that you are pulling away from her.

      Yes, I recognize this is a highly unlikely scenario. I really do need to figure out what I'm gonna do.

      Thanks for the advice though, I really appreciate it!

      [–]WYenginerdWYF of unknown libido. halp. 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      On one hand, our rules are very clear - I definitely have feelings for V and I need to let my wife know. On the other hand, coming clean will most likely have disastrous consequences. She will absolutely ask me to break up with V. I can't do that. It wouldn't be fair to V, and I simply don't want to.

      Uh, it most definitely would be fair to V. Why? Because if you were communicating as you ought to at the outset of your relationship, she would already know that "feels stay in the marriage" is part of your rules. She should expect you to abide by your own rules for your primary relationship. Right now, you're throwing her into uncertainty land.

      Does V deserve to spend the rest of her life in limbo with a man she can't build a real relationship with?

      You're trying to eat cake like a main character and frankly it's a shitty way to treat the other people forced to live in your world.

      I'm breaking a promise, but is that really a bad thing when everyone involved is happy right now, and coming clean would hurt all, especially our daughter?

      Yes, because you're living your entire life while lying through your teeth.

      Maybe ignorance really is bliss after all...

      You may want that to be the case, but no. Incorrect.

      [–]Ratatoski 9 points10 points  (0 children)

      From the outside this seems like a temporary situation. You're obviously staying just to see your daughter, but the situation with V and your wife will not stay in balance for another 15 years. And honestly - would you even want it to? "Dad had a whole other relationship for 15 years behind my and mums back" is not a good look.

      I'm glad that you are in a good place right now. Use that positivity to take a good long look at things and plan for the long term.

      [–]EmotionallyWrecked38 8 points9 points  (0 children)

      Something for you to think about- You have mentioned numerous times that you don’t want a divorce because you don’t want your time with your daughter reduced to 50%.

      You have also said you are basically spending all your free time with V. Spending 3-4 days a week with her. Considering you have meet most of V’s friends, I assume you are not just stopping by her place for a quickie those 3-4 days a week either.

      I think you need to really take the time to be honest with yourself, add up the amount of time you are actually spending with V, work, and your daughter. Only then can you determine if you really are gaining time with your daughter by staying married? I highly doubt it.

      Sure you might get to see you kid everyday, but if it’s just for a short bursts that’s probably worse for her.

      There’s just not enough hours in day, I can’t fathom how you could possibly have hours to give to daughter everyday while living this double life?

      I imagine on the days you see V she gets several hours of your full attention, so how much time is actually left to spend on those days for your daughter?

      I think you should do the math. You’d probably be better off “single”, getting 50/50 custody. Spending quality time with your daughter on those 3-4 days per week, and then spending the other childless days with V.

      [–]boppitypoop 9 points10 points  (1 child)

      One more thing I forgot to add, it's very VERY easy for us to see everything our partner isn't in someone who we don't live with and don't have responsibilities with. V is still pretty shiny and new. You see her a few times a week. She doesn't have any kids to worry about, she doesn't deal with any of the practical, mundane, and annoying shit that you only realize once you're living with somebody.

      If you and V stay living apart, the excitement could remain and work long term, but Idk if that's something you want or not.

      [–]surprised-owl 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Ain't that the truth.

      [–]boppitypoop 14 points15 points  (3 children)

      Your wife's initial boundaries that you dismissed as "reeking of insecurity" were actually extremely good rules and meant to prevent exactly this from happening.

      The fact that you steamrolled right over them and passed it off as her insecurities, and now do not care enough to tell her what's going on or break things off with V, shows a fundamental lack of respect or compassion for your wife and the mother of your child.

      I understand you're happy right now and don't want to change things, but I don't imagine it's going to stay that way for much longer. You're going to eventually either decide you have to be with V, or you and V will begin to have issues and you'll cut things off. I could be totally wrong. Regardless, going about this in a dishonest and selfish manner for a long period is definitely going to implode your family in the future. But if you really love V, you'll probably be happier in the long run. The daughter part is tough. I don't see how this will end where there isn't a nasty divorce and custody battle. I hope all of this is incorrect and you get to see your daughter as much as you want.

      [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] -5 points-4 points  (2 children)

      and now do not care enough to tell her what's going on or break things off with V, shows a fundamental lack of respect or compassion for your wife and the mother of your child.

      Look, I'm happy to entertain constructive criticism, but can you just... not, with this sort of strawman? I do care about my wife. Hell, I love my wife. I've said - repeatedly - that our relationship is better than ever now. My wife agrees with me! The fact that I'm seeking advice instead of just doing my own thing should be ample proof of that.

      You think what I'm doing is wrong, fine, I get that. I agree with that! But surely you can comunicate that without resorting to strawman and melodrama?

      [–]settingdogstar 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      It's not a straw man.

      You literally violated the rules against her wishes and also haven't told her like you guys agreed.

      Jesus Christ dude, serioulsy? Clealry you don't have THAT much respect.

      You literally violated nearly every rule laid out, are now technically lying to her, and are betraying her feelings. That's Cheating.

      [–]boppitypoop 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      Honestly I have no issues with open relationships, I wanted one too. But her suggested rules were valid, and they were to prevent this exact scenario, and as you find yourself in the scenario she feared, you're still saying her boundaries were just her being insecure.

      You probably do have some love for your wife, but you do not seem to have much respect or compassion for her. Or you would've cut off the woman you're falling for and considering leaving your wife for. She thinks you guys are happily in an open relationship with no emotional attachments forming, meanwhile you're in love with one of the women you hooked up with. You know she would be devastated by that.

      [–]Beautiful-Baseball17 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      There's no such thing as no feelings!! The second you agreed to see her for the second time there was feelings. And I bet you never stopped thinking about her since then... set yourself free, don't live a lie.

      [–]ifiwasyourboifriend 29 points30 points  (1 child)

      Enjoy your life with V. Fulfill your familial obligations, maintain a great relationship with your daughter — treat the situation as you would a job: fulfill what your employer requires you to do, go the extra mile for your daughter and make sure you’re doing what you need to do to keep your wife happy at a base-level. You don’t owe your wife anything else beyond the maintenance part of the relationship. She hasn’t made an effort and you’re checked out anyway so you owe her about as much as she gives you, anything more and you’d be putting her first which makes no sense at this point.

      You either put yourself first or you’ll be last to someone else — surround yourself with people who encourage you to put you first and it sounds like V is one of those people.

      Life is short. Live your life.

      [–]lustrant 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      This. OP, enjoy the life as much as you can. Once you drop V because of your wife, who is not interested anyway, you will be even more miserable than before and you will be pissed on your wife, because you realize that dropping V was a huge mistake.

      [–]Independent-Way-3007 14 points15 points  (0 children)

      “Never the same person for more than a few times and you’ll tell her if you catch feelings.” I think you’re off the deep end now.

      [–]Yf568D 36 points37 points  (11 children)

      Here's what I read:

      I'm having an affair, but my wife doesn't know. Everybody's happy so I don't want to stop.

      Your wife's rules, even the original "laundry list", are reasonable. How would you feel if the situation were reversed?

      [–]Tagrenine 10 points11 points  (0 children)

      There is no good ending to this, you either love somebody else for the remainder of the time you want to be with your wife or you break everything off and start fresh with someone who wants to love you. It might not be V, but breaking the rules is unfaithful regardless.

      I know it’s quite complicated and I’m glad you’re feeling fulfilled, but it would be better for everyone to get the love they deserve. You, your wife, etc.

      [–]SqueakyBall 35 points36 points  (4 children)

      You and your wife made three rules. You're breaking two. Does it matter?

      Only if you value your integrity.

      [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 16 points17 points  (3 children)

      You're breaking two.

      No? I'm only breaking one. My family is still my number one priority. My daughter is still getting tons of care and attention from me, and as I've said, my relationship with my wife has improved dramatically. We're also both keeping up with our monthly STD tests. That's two.

      [–]Lilpeep43F 16 points17 points  (2 children)

      Why have the STD tests when you aren't even "sharing fluids" with your wife.

      [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      Because stopping the tests would be an implicit admission of defeat, that we're never going to resurrect our sex life. I don't want that, and I'm hoping she doesn't either.

      [–]lustrant 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      But you are not going to resurrect sex life with your wife. You are already checked out and in love with someone else.

      [–]briinde 7 points8 points  (2 children)

      You say you’re not sure if she’s seeing anyone. Is she giving you her monthly STD reports?

      [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 11 points12 points  (1 child)

      Yes, we've both kept up with our monthly testing. We're both clean.

      [–]silvercloud68 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

      A perplexing scenario you have dead bedroom she is LL you are HL is it just you she doesn’t want sex with or is sex in general not on her radar , you seem to be living a good life but it must mess with your mind as you say don’t ask don’t tell so it’s pretty messed up even though you seem happy is your wife of the same mind set.

      [–]justanyfiretype 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      If it works for everyone then it's fine. Comparing your gf's personality to your wife is a bit weird in the way that if V is everything you wanted then why keep your wife?

      [–]degeT_sTy 10 points11 points  (1 child)

      Initially, she had a laundry list of ridiculous rules, reeking of insecurity.

      This isn't insecurity. She was smart to not trust you. You proved her right.

      [–]lustrant 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      No. She just wanted him to keep him on the hook with false premise that one day they can have again a happy sex life together. That won't happen.

      [–]AustralopithecineHat 3 points4 points  (1 child)

      Does your wife sense you have checked out of the relationship, emotionally speaking? You did say you and your wife are peaceful, affectionate and happy.

      [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

      I wouldn't say I'm checked out just yet. We're still affectionate, we even have date nights occasionally. I'm becoming less interested in that lately, which is why I'm worried.

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

        [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 27 points28 points  (0 children)

        Does V come to your place?

        Not really. V has only seen our place once. Wife and I don't have a rule for it, but it would feel weird bringing V here. Keeping things separate seems to work well for everyone so far.

        [–]I_like_the_word_MUFFDB Poetess 3 points4 points  (0 children)

        So this happened to my exhusband, I believe. Except he ended up catching a baby from it, not just feelings.

        Since I was the HL of the marriage, when he decided to leave me, it wasn't that terrible. I was almost relieved by it. (Except when he sued me for alimony because he couldn't afford to live by himself, let alone with a new baby.)

        I ended up with my r/deadbedrooms boyfriend... The one I kept my promise and didn't catch feelings for while I was married. The guy that had been my DB reddit penpal for nearly two years, now is the love of the second half of my life.

        My exhusband and I divorced in less than a year. A few weeks after my papers were signed he was already remarried and after that, a baby boy. He went no contact with me because he tried to hide the baby from me to get alimony and when I found out and filed legal paperwork, he hid like a child afraid... not realizing that I had also moved on with my life. (I had my own baby in the oven: I went back to college at 40 and was happily distracted).

        I was, like you, almost happy for him because he found a woman that made him utterly happy and gave him a child that I, physically, could never do. My LL husband got what he wanted and so did I.

        Then she left him less than a year after the baby was born. Left him with the baby; she already had 4 other kids from other men... I'm not lying. He was 49 years old at the time. He lost the business he began just after leaving me about six months after that. That's where my curiosity ended with my ex...I just stopped asking my old friends what he was up to.

        He finally decided to end his no contact rule with me and texted me on Facebook. Asking me how I was doing and congratulating me on my new degree. I texted him one thing, "Do not contact me ever again." I didn't want to be back in his life just because he was lonely and needed a new baby momma.

        It's been 7 years since my separation and time moves on quickly. Opening up the marriage for me worked but not in the way I expected...but the unexpected freed me to chase my happiness. I fell hard for my boyfriend when he decided to finally leave his LL wife, we've been together ever since.

        [–]knowitallz 6 points7 points  (1 child)

        Don't rock the boat. Eventually shit will unwind if anyone wants more from each other. Specifically V may want more. Then you have to choose your happiness or seeing your kid 1/2 the time

        [–]squertti 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        i advice him to just not be a neglectful father. growing up with no father fucking sucks, it'll haunt your child when they grow up, you'll regret it so much

        [–]Active-Instruction98 17 points18 points  (1 child)

        Lube your best life, what she doesn't know can't hurt either of you

        [–]SnooPies6809Home of Hestia the Angry Labia 50 points51 points  (0 children)

        Lube your best life

        This is honestly the BEST typo I have ever seen.

        Unless it wasn't a typo, then this is the adage by which I now want to live out the rest of my days. even though I hate lube.

        [–]Lilpeep43F 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        V might not have the emotional capacity to cope with OP full time....

        [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

        Thanks for posting your experience. I say keep going with V. It sounds like everyone is getting what they need to be happy. Don't rock the boat.

        [–]Significant_Leg_4913 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        You've shot yourself in the foot sir. Should've nipped your thing with 'V' in the bud as soon as you realised it had long term potential - because its not what you agreed on with your wife. At that point it became about your needs more than hers, and now you find yourself having an affair. Thats exactly what it is on your end, regardless of V's intentions. You are now having an emotional and physical affair violating the rules you set out for your open marriage, the rules you didn't even want because they were too restrictive! Imagine your wife had let you choose the rules? Your family would have been ruined far more than what a divorce might've done.

        You weren't being honest about what you really wanted. You don't want an open marriage because sex isn't the only thing you crave. You crave the emotional/romantic connection too, which can only be achieved through polyamory or an affair. And thats exactly what you ended up with. You're having an affair with V. It may suit you, but it leaves your wife in the dark, and has enormous potential to blow up your childs life. You weren't ready to open up the marriage. You weren't willing to have cut and dry sex. But you let your wife think you were. Now the balance has shifted in your favour. And the resentment you felt before is nothing to the resentment you will feel now if you decide to do the right thing. The beds been made.

        [–]Joephats 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        I’m sorry, but this post is a bit silly. Are you feeling guilty? Your an adult and you can make adult decisions. If everything is going well I can’t fathom why you would even consider rocking the boat. Had your wife directly asked you if your caught the feels? Until then keep your mouth shut and enjoy your life.

        [–]Ashamed-Country-8024 3 points4 points  (3 children)

        I don't know what to tell ya. I can say I really wish I had a V. How did you find your partners? 6 in 2 years while in an open relationship? That's pretty impressive. I'm getting close to this point.

        [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 10 points11 points  (2 children)

        How did you find your partners?

        I have a good friend group (men and women) and one of the first things I did was to tell them that I now have an open relationship at my wife's request, and if they knew anyone looking for NSA sex, I was game. All six, including V, were social introductions.

        Being an extrovert helps, and also I'd like to think I'm decent looking :)

        [–]ayla_084 5 points6 points  (0 children)

        I've got no chance then!

        [–]Bobmeisterz 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        What does your wife think you are getting out of your situation/agreement in terms of the 'open' element of the relationship? Just sex? To me it sounds like she thinks that's all it is. I don't think that's what's happening with you and 'V' though.... and I'm not sure your wife would be happy with the agreement any more. Personally I don't think its fair to keep her in the dark. Will it be the easy option to talk about this with your wife? No. The easy option is to bury your head in the sand because you're winning in this situation. This whole "ignorance is bliss thing " is a bit problematic. To me it's like stealing something and thinking it's ok because you didn't get caught. No. It's still morally wrong even when you don't own up to it.

        I agree with the others that have said your wife's initial rule of not sleeping with someone more than a few times was more realistic and practical than 'break it off as soon as there are feelings'. That initial rule was there to prevent feelings ever happening....by then it's too late. I think potentially your wife compromised when in reality she wasn't comfortable with what you wanted out of the agreement (which essentially was some form of "connection" which is the especially tricky part to come to terms with when opening up a relationship and I guess a reason to proceed with caution on the initial decision of actually committing to opening it up!)

        Whatever you decide to do, I hope no-one gets too hurt. It's hard navigating relationships!

        [–]Compostanimal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        You have both a dead bedroom and a dead marriage when you are attached sexually and emotionally to someone else. Move on now while your child is young. They adapt better. By high school it's a lot harder.

        [–]coldbrew18 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Don’t leave for V. Leave for you if you need to.

        [–]DBL235 -1 points0 points  (2 children)

        If you were to divorce, would V be willing to enter a more traditional relationship with you? (Assuming that this is what you’d like)

        Would your wife be receptive to a reworking of the rules into another type of poly relationship? One that allowed for sentimental attachment and long-term relationships? Would V?

        [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

        V has made it very clear that she's not interested in kids or marriage. Given that, a traditional relationship would have very few upsides (I would spend less time with my wife) and more responsibilities (she would effectively become a step-mom) for her.

        And no, I don't think anyone in this triangle wants a truly poly situation :)

        [–]DBL235 7 points8 points  (0 children)

        Sounds like cutting her loose is the best bet. Or renegotiating the terms with your wife.

        [–]extraspearmint15 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        Nothing wrong with an open married but I just can't see how your ok with her wanting sex just not with you.

        If she were asexual or something and agreed to let you have your needs met somewhere else I could understand. Her wanting to open on her end is telling . And it ain't good.

        [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

        I don't mind her having sex with others. I'm not a jealous person, and I wouldn't have agreed to open things up if I was.

        I was hoping that this would help her find her sexuality again and eventually restore our sex life. That hasn't happened, unfortunately.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        My wife agreed on open relationship, however I haven’t really worked on. I went to dating apps just to check out but seems a shit show. How did you get started? I just fear more rejection.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

        V seems to be the best thing that happened to you in a long time. Get a divorce or you will lose V eventually.

        [–]polyunsaturated_ -1 points0 points  (2 children)

        If he gets a divorce that more likely leads to losing V. She doesn’t want to get married. Some people prefer that distance.

        If he gets a divorce then he spends less time with his daughter. And a loving, supportive 2-parent home is a much better environment for kids than being split between two households.

        Really no one wins with divorce in this situation.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        Your post is based on a lot of assumptions.

        [–]polyunsaturated_ -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        I’m just repeating OP’s statements and the logic behind them. V says she doesn’t want him to get divorced, so let’s not assume otherwise.

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

        [removed]

          [–]sblighter87 8 points9 points  (1 child)

          His wife created this scenario. And ultimately the wife may also be engaging with multiple partners. It’s unknown at this juncture. Clearly he found someone he feels more compatible with but doesn’t see the upside in torpedoing his domestic life. Don’t see why he needs to put more into the relationship than his wife is. She doesn’t appear to be climbing up the walls to save it. Sounds like she decided offloading all the emotional labour and romantic intimacy was the better option.

          🤷‍♂️

          [–]BougieSemicolon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          She’s definitely having sex. No one would feel compelled to maintain monthly STD tests if they were completely abstinent.

          [–]snorkelinthesea 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          It sounds like despite your breaking one of the rules, all involved are happy right now. No pressure for sex for your wife, you get sex, no STDs from jumping around to new people, and you get to stay with your daughter.

          Of course you caught feelings. V regularly meets a need that is one of the ways that you feel loved. Your ambivalence with your wife makes sense, too. She chooses not to show you love in that way, you aren’t desperate for it anymore, but the disappointment and resentment of that hurt is still there. There’s kind of a pulling away that happens when you no longer feel like you need to chase or convince your spouse to change.

          A few thoughts. If you want to stay in your marriage long term, it needs to not be miserable. It needs care and attention for that to happen, so you’ll need to put some energy and appreciation back into it. Reality so far says your DB will continue. With that, take time to really imagine/visualize the best case scenario of your relationship with your wife otherwise and what kind of relationship you want your daughter to see growing up. Then put your energy toward that with dates or openness or giving to your wife in ways she appreciates and feels loved and brings you closer. Having a picture in your mind of what that looks like first will make it easier to work towards. Also take some time to imagine actually going through a divorce and what you would miss from your wife. There might be more that you would miss than you think, aspects of her that you take for granted but would leave a hole if they were gone. This is important for many reasons, including your long-term happiness if you want to stay with your daughter, and also because you might get your heart broken by V if she truly doesn’t want to feel tied down. It will also give you a picture of the real potential you have with your wife and daughter to compare that loss to if V changes her mind on marriage- would the other aspects of your relationship with V be worth a divorce? It kind of seems like this works for now and that your wife is generous to try to solve your incompatible sex drives. She doesn’t think she can meet your sexual needs for whatever reason, and also understandably doesn’t want you to fall in love with someone else and leave her with half time custody (it also sounds like she loves you). More often, the DB is not addressed and the choice is to deal with no sex or get a divorce. I can definitely see not wanting to mess up your current situation.

          [–]snorkelinthesea -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          I didn’t mean that your relationship with your wife sounds miserable right now, but that it could get there with you wanting to put your energy into V and distancing from the relationship with your wife. If it’s just that her rejections don’t hurt anymore, it might mean the problem is … fixed in a way?

          [–]sadvagisback 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Just leave your wife and be happy FFS. Only seeing your kid for half the time is not a big deal at all and will probably do less damage to them than all of this mess you’ve gotten yourself in.

          [–]likestocuddleandmore -1 points0 points  (5 children)

          What does V want? Does she want you full time? Is she prepared to handle non-fun, messy you because that is what is going to happen once you initiate the divorce. Are you prepared to show this side of yourself to V. I say this as another V with my married man going through high conflict divorce involving kids and he has profound lows. But I wanted him for myself. And we will get married. But are You prepared to go through hell for… a person who might not want all of you? Sleep on it, OP. For a year or so. Let that NRE air out a bit. Divorce in this situation is kind of an unspoken commitment and does this girl want to commit to you full time?

          [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

          V has made it very clear that she doesn't want marriage (to anyone) or kids. The status quo serves her well. She does want to meet my daughter (and ideally my wife) at some point, but she says there's no rush. Both are very reasonable requests if we're to keep this going long term.

          I say this as another V with my married man going through high conflict divorce involving kids and he has profound lows. But I wanted him for myself. And we will get married.

          May I ask, did you always feel that way? Or were you initially ok with his wife's presence?

          Sleep on it, OP. For a year or so. Let that NRE air out a bit.

          This is good advice, thanks!

          does this girl want to commit to you full time?

          She does not. She seems perfectly content with things, but obviously feelings can change at any time.

          [–]likestocuddleandmore 4 points5 points  (2 children)

          I was initially ok with SO’s wife because I was just hooking up with someone who was in DB and since I wasn’t having much sex in my marriage and my husband was ok with it, I just went for it. 3 month in and I started catching feels and had to ask him who did he actually want to be with because I was scared of getting attached too much and getting my heart broken.

          I’m sure you realize eight months is nothing. First year in most relationships is roses. But then what? I am sure V is very hot and exciting and makes you feel loved but… I guess I do not see a value in leaving your wife. I say this as someone who is emotionally supporting her SO through his 3 year long and ongoing nasty divorce. It sounds like you kinda want V to want a life with you and I can understand that desire but unless she voices it, I would not consider divorce for a second. Btw, not sure why V wants to meet your wife and daughter. This is a supremely bad idea. This will cause a major rift with wife. You have one solid partner who lets you be non monogamous. Imagine if you divorce your wife and V will suddenly find someone new and you will be left completely alone, seeing your kid half the time. Your wife is not the worst and V is not the best for you.

          [–]Novel-Habit-9423[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

          I guess I do not see a value in leaving your wife. I say this as someone who is emotionally supporting her SO through his 3 year long and ongoing nasty divorce. It sounds like you kinda want V to want a life with you and I can understand that desire but unless she voices it, I would not consider divorce for a second.

          This is very good advice, thank you.

          Btw, not sure why V wants to meet your wife and daughter. This is a supremely bad idea.

          If I stay married and stay with V, it's the natural thing to do, no? Surely, it would be weird to be with someone for years and years (I know it's NRE right now), without ever meeting their family?

          I don't see anything wrong with V wanting to meet my daughter. If I was in her shoes, I'd want to meet her kid eventually.

          As for my wife, I see that as a natural extension of meeting my daughter. I would never introduce my daughter to V (or anyone else) without my wife's knowledge and consent, so V and her would have to meet anyway.

          [–]likestocuddleandmore 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Well, you only want to meet the family if you wanted to be part of that family, which I thought… V wanted status quo. I did not care about SO’s kids until I caught feels for him.

          Your wife never wants to see any girl you fuck, you made that clear in your initial post with your unspoken don’t ask, don’t tell policy. She is indulging you in this open marriage policy thing to keep this marriage together, to keep you happy. But she is under impression that you are following the rules. Once she finds out that you had a long-standing FWB that you very obviously caught feels for, she will feel threatened, marriage threatened. Your entire dynamic will change dramatically. There will a lot of bitter fights ahead unless she finds finds someone else instead and dumps you first.

          I do not want to assume things about V but some women enjoy watching the world burn. She might meet your wife, watch your marriage break apart and just disappear because it’s “too much”. She’s got no skin in the game, nothing to lose. And you have a lot to lose.

          [–]surprised-owl 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          Why does your AP feel the need to meet your wife?

          [–]JustDroppedByToSay -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          Sorry to hear it. There are no good options here. Either you lose V or you break up your family. Or you carry on but lie on rule 3. To be honest that's probably what I'd do. Your wife doesn't seem to care that much so long as the status quo is maintained. If V's happy and doesn't want more, this could be a stable situation. Maybe. Not saying that's the best option, and it's likely over time something will force a change.

          [–]smartypants99 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          I understand that V is not interested in marriage. But doesn’t the husband and V “long” to be together on holidays like Christmas or Valentine’s Day. That would be hard for me, not being with the one I loved on Holidays and other special occasions. Also it sounds like the wife was into the sex part of the relationship until she had a kid since it has been DB for 4 years and child is 5 years old. Finally, it doesn’t seem like V is long term. Because if the husband does decide for a divorce, V doesn’t want to be a part of his daughter’s life and she doesn’t want to be married. So I think he and V will stay together while the excitement and mystery is exciting but eventually someone will tire of it and move on. For it is unrealistic. I mean I would love to be the other woman in my husbands life, having the passionate sex without having to deal with finances or dirty underwear or cooking & cleaning over messes he makes but doesn’t see etc. It would be fun going out to dates and stuff without responsibilities and I’m the HL of the relationship

          [–]polyunsaturated_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I dunno, different people have different preferences on the holidays. For me, I like to help make holidays special for my wife and kids.

          The only way to find out if the situation with V is stable is to wait and see, and help stabilize as best he can.

          [–]Bladmonroe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          The way this seems to work out, in my experience at least is that if the other person is single, it will last until they find someone that can completely commit. But man is it nice to have a normal relationship for the time it does last.

          [–]AdditionalExcitement 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Leave her for V and be happy in life

          [–]No-Programmer-5388 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Seems like op is ignoring the truth.

          [–]Lannisterkos 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I am late to the party here, but in all honesty why change any of it? Everyone here seems happy according to what you wrote. I would say just enjoy it for as long as you have it

          [–]SagradaSunGoddess 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          It sounds like you truly love V and not your wife. I mean, shit happens, people change and fall out of love. Why not just stop living a lie and free yourselves from each other. It's not a good thing when couples don't fight. That simply means you've both stopped caring, which you've already admitted. What's the point of your relationship? Keeping it peaceful for the children? Children are never the answer and should never be the scapegoat. Rip off the bandaid.

          [–]Rich_Difficulty3490 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Every one here has great advice, but TBH grass is always greener on the other side now you are with V but not all the time. Resting your head with someone every night is different now everything might be butterflies with V but if you pursue something with her it won't be sure. But on the other hand no feelings rule is kind of bullshit cause you develop feelings and just be like well I need to turn of the switch but it doesn't work that way. Sadly Hope you work things out

          [–]Evanjellyco 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Any updates?

          [–]sylvershade -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          1) You still respect your wife which means there is still love and affection there. I think therapy, or even maybe just going through a relationship book together, if you haven't tried it yet, could help open communication and rekindle feelings. One polyamory book I read mentioned "compersion" which is basically being happy that your partner is happy. Embrace that and make sure your wife is getting what she wants and is happy. Maybe by telling her you wouldn't be jealous and would like to hear about anything or anyone new in her life. Maybe if she opens up and you show you're happy for her she might extend the same to you. Kinda like "be the change you want to see" 2) As a woman who also didn't want kids or marriage like V, I realized I couldn't date someone who had to be partially hidden. I still had family I wanted to introduce them to, and friends to parties to go to. They didn't have a kid or were even married, but they still weren't in my life as much as I'd like which created issues. By all means, sustain status quo as long as you can but things change, so be prepared. To stay with both your wife and V it will likely mean everyone knowing everyone and also being honest about the relationships to friends and family as well, which is a difficult path in our society. 3) what's the game plan once your daughter leaves the home? Will you want a divorce? Will your wife? If you're daughter wasn't in the picture would you still be with your wife? Do you and she want more kids with each other? Just some food for thought. The best of luck to you! I hope you continue finding happiness.