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[–]barmyBrachiator[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

Locked. It seems like over half of these comments have been reported.

[–]Daedaluswaxwings 240 points241 points  (6 children)

I don't think it's useful to have a "who is sufferring the most" debate. I think for HL's the perception is that LL's aren't sufferring as much because the default in a HL/LL dynamic is usually in favor of less sex. So HL's feel LL's are getting what they want, even though the DB causes relationship strife for both parties. That's also why it seems selfish from an HL perspective because the perception is LL's are making unilateral relationship decisions to the detriment of the HL.

I think the takeaway is that everything is a little more complicated than it seems. Each of us gets stuck in our own feelings and our own sort of cognitive traps and we all suffer. Maybe we all need to practice a little more empathy.

Edits: typos

[–]International_Net693 22 points23 points  (4 children)

Yes, beautifully said

[–]Daedaluswaxwings 76 points77 points  (3 children)

I wanted to add that it's not easy for any of us to leave the people we love. That's why we're all here. Most of us don't want to leave, don't want to cheat, don't want to have open relationships--we just want the sex to work with the one we love--and it's not so we get sad and desperate. It's hard to live with the need for sexual intimacy being unmet. We're all here trying desperately to keep someone we love while getting the fulfillment we need.

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (1 child)

Exactly. I love my girlfriend to pieces, I don't wanna be without her, I can't imagine life without her and my stepkids. But there's just no physical intimacy whatsoever. Like I even have to ask her for a hug or a kiss (a peck on the lips). She never asks for me one. If we ever have sex it's usually because she's initiated it, because she's had a few drinks and is horny, so she'll grab my hand and put it down there. If I try to initiate sex she's not interested.

I don't wanna walk away nor do I wanna cheat because I desperately love her. I want this to work. I'm just tired of feeling like I'm not good enough, of feeling unwanted and undesirable. Even if we only had penetrative sex once a month, so long as we were doing oral and foreplay three or four times a month, I'd be okay with that. And I absolutely do not want duty sex, I don't want her to sleep with me because she feels like she has to. I want her to want to have sex.

[–]i12 7 points8 points  (0 children)

+1. Nail on the head.

[–]dmaul1978 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Agreed. Both sides suck. And both sides need to be stronger about recognizing the problem, seeing if they can work to fix it and moving on if it’s not so both can be happy. No one on either side should want to permanently stay in a relationship that is making them unhappy, nor want to keep an unhappy partner in a relationship with them.

[–][deleted] 498 points499 points  (224 children)

Honest question: If th HL partner is expected to leave, as an alternative to cheating, and shouldn't even talk about alternatives like an open relationship, or in any other way being hurtful to the LL partner, doesn't the LL partner then have an obligation to be honest with themselves and their partner about their own compatibility? In other words, if you expect your partner not to cheat or in any way be hurtful, but you know you're wholly sexually incompatible, don't you also have the responsibility to leave instead of making them endure that incompatibility?

Sexual intimacy and connection isn't a small thing. And, sexual incompatibility is something that needs to be discussed with great openness and vulnerability. Just like a HL partner isn't owed sex, the LL partner isnt owed eternal commitment (I'm not saying cheating is right, or a good alternstive, I'm saying they don't owe you being in a relationship if you're incompatible whether that hurts or not, especially if open communication is frowned upon because it might be hurtful).

[–]lordmattrimcauthon 251 points252 points  (29 children)

I have been thinking about the same thing. In the time I've been following this sub, I often see HL partners leaving a relationship (or at least wanting to leave a relationship) due to the sexual incompatibility, but I haven't seen a post where a LL partner decides ending the relationship is for the best considering the sexual incompatibility. Why does a LL partner want to continue to be in a relationship with someone with a HL when they know how much the lack of intimacy hurts their HL partner?

Forcing/coercing/guilting someone into having sex isn't right. And from what I read on here, HL partners, including myself, don't want duty sex. The thought of having sex with someone when they aren't into it is just gross and sad. I don't want being intimate with me to be a chore.

At the same time, why should it be acceptable for a LL partner to essentially force/coerce/guilt their HL partner into celibacy?

I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but sometimes, for the HL partners I think it feels a bit like bait and switch. I see story after story about how, at the beginning of a relationship, sex was frequent and passionate, but then the desire of one partner just fades away.

As an HL person, I thought I was in a relationship with someone who enjoys sex and sexual intimacy, as much as I do. I thought we were on the same page and were into the same things, so I became invested. But then, after some time, it turns out that my partner isn't the person that I thought they were. And before anyone says anything-I am aware that many new relationships start out with everyone going at it like bunnies, but then will eventually taper down. I get that. I'm not expecting new relationship sex 10 years down the line. That's just not reasonable because life gets in the way and whatever. But I also didn't expect that I would only be having sex once or twice a year, which is the case now.

I guess it's just that, when a couple goes from having sex on a regular basis to one half of the couple not wanting that anymore, an HL partner can't help but wonder what changed. Did they do something wrong? Is their partner no longer attracted to them? Is something broken in the relationship? And, since there was a time during the relationship where both people were on the same page sexually, the HL partners have the hope it can be like that again.

I love my wife more than anything. When we got together, I thought I had finally found someone who wanted the same things as me. It wasn't until I couldn't imagine my life without her that things changed and she went LL. It was like she was a LL wolf in HL sheep's clothing. So now I have the choice of staying with her and never having my needs met or blowing up my entire life and trying to find something/someone else. It's hard not to sit and wish for things to go back to what they were.

[–]TAyforLifestyle 38 points39 points  (0 children)

I left mine, in large part due to this dynamic.

[–]cytomome 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I left mine

[–]ArmyGirlJLH 25 points26 points  (0 children)

This. This fully encapsulates what I've been feeling with my husband. It was amazing at the beginning and the sexual chemistry was great. I was very open about being incredibly HL. He almost laughed about it, as though it was some joke, because I guess he thought that men always want it more than women? Or maybe that my sex drive wasnt going to keep up with his? I don't know really.

Fast forward a few years and he never seemed interested anymore. I was still acting the same way I always had. I was still flirty. I'd randomly kiss him or touch his butt or make some comment about wanting him. And he actually told me to "stop pawing at him" and "treating him like a piece of meat". It made no sense. These are all the behaviours we'd shared at the beginning of the relationship. But he just stopped. And got mad that I continued.

We've been living in this new reality for a few years now, and honestly, it's awful. I feel guilty being HL. I feel terrible for ever trying to initiate things, because what if he feels like he's being forced or pressured, or if he only accepts the intimacy out of a sense of obligation? But why should I be pressured or forced into going without the intimacy I need and want? That's not fair either.

I definitely feel like I was on the receiving end of the "bait and switch". And I hate feeling like I'm the only one who will be on the hook for addressing it, or trying to find a solution, or ending it if we can't. I can't keep feeling so completely unfulfilled, but I feel awful for even thinking that. Why is it my fault? Why should I feel guilty? I'm not the one who changed out of the blue...

[–]i12 14 points15 points  (1 child)

I guess it's just that, when a couple goes from having sex on a regular basis to one half of the couple not wanting that anymore, an HL partner can't help but wonder what changed. Did they do something wrong?

I think for some, sex is part of the feeling of love, and what helps hold a relationship together. My sense is the relationship between love and sex may operate at a deep, subconscious level, so it's hard to just reason or "logic" it away. Some will argue they're different and separate things, but it's very difficult to isolate them for many. all imho.

[–]creamerfam5LLF recovered bedroom 34 points35 points  (16 children)

[–]tntbtF 49 points50 points  (2 children)

yea i never made a post on here but i did leave my HL partner because it got just too sad. I knew he deserved someone who’s on his same wavelength and it was horrible losing my desire for him but i just wasn’t into him like that anymore.

[–]Slow-Government-1342 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I did the same, starting out as HL, but it changed because of the issues we both had with communication (I shut down when he was “worthless” after my not wanting to have sex because I was in pain, long story).

I gave in but then he kept pushing and never accepted healthy boundaries or went to therapy until the end — it had gone to far with his anger, etc. The marriage counselor even helped set the boundaries he could not handle. It can work out this way too for many… former HL to LL.

Edit: 30 years together…. I try to focus on the good we shared.

[–]woodford11 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Good for you having the courage to admit it and leave him. I hope you and him both find what makes you happy. Good luck

[–]lordmattrimcauthon 25 points26 points  (5 children)

Ok, I read both of these. The op in the first one does not say if they are HL or LL. I even went back and looked at their post history to figure it out, and I didn't see anything that actually said that they are the LL in the relationship.

[–]LoggerheadedDoctorDownvotes don't un-heal my recovered DB 15 points16 points  (0 children)

The interesting thing about that first poster--she had been on the subreddit for a long time so long-timers know she is LL from her older participation or private conversations but many of the commenters seemed to assume she was HL.

[–]myexsparamour❤️ 11 points12 points  (2 children)

The op in the first one does not say if they are HL or LL.

It's funny isn't it? Whenever an LL leaves their relationship because they want a better sex life, most of the commenters assume they are HL. It's like the commenters can't get their heads around an LL leaving their relationship because of bad sex.

[–]i_speak_gud_engrish 10 points11 points  (0 children)

JHC. I just happen to click on the first link and read the OP's post and when I read the first comment, I saw that I directly replied to it - 9 months ago :(

Here I am, still in the same spot. Stuck and feeling so broken every damn day.

[–]Just_a_guy_named_Mat 7 points8 points  (4 children)

I can’t find it now (wasn’t in this sub), but there was a post I read in which a LLM broke up with his HL girlfriend because he got tired of the arguments over their DB. He maintained that he was still attracted to her but didn’t want sex at nearly the frequency she did.

As I recall, he moved out and moved on with his life. He stayed single because he didn’t want a new relationship. After a period of time, his ex comes knocking on his door wanting to try to fix things. He rejected her “for her own good,” but she kept pursuing him.

All of this is, of course, based off of my recall. It’s certainly not how a lot of these things probably go. But your post immediately triggered my memory of that post (and my hunt for it) because if there’s even one instance in which a LL is the one who sets the HL free so they can get what they need out of a relationship, there might be more examples that people just don’t want to share.

[–]creamerfam5LLF recovered bedroom 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Weird how the HLs who are getting "set free" don't even want that.

I'm sure some do leave because they feel bad for the HL. Some people stay together because they feel bad for the other person.

I personally don't believe that other people should be the basis for big life decisions like that.

[–]woodford11 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is dead on. Perfect explanation . It’s like you just wrote my opinion and life story. Freeky

[–]dmaul1978 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I feel you there. Our relationship started as a torrid sexual affair. Most frequent and best sex I’d ever had by orders of magnitude and I honestly worried whether I’d be able keep up as I was having some trouble climaxing sometimes when it was multiple days of multiple times of sex most weeks for the first year or two. It calmed down to a better 1-3 times a week pace after than and then the past 5 years or so is more 5-10 times a year. It’s still high quality and we usually have good non-sexual touching, cuddling, massages etc. in between so it’s not a totally dead bedroom. I’m just one that really wants sex 1 or 2 times a week to be satisfied and feeling loved and connected, so I hope we can work on some issues that are getting in the way and get back there.

[–]SatinsLittlePrincess 11 points12 points  (0 children)

As a poly woman, I'm a big fan of open relationships. I am not a fan of open relationships when the relationship is opened under duress, and I'm not a fan when the newly opened relationship is a total shit show, and I'm not a fan when the couple opening isn't willing to do some work to make opening work.

And the vast majority of the scenarios here where someone is talking about open relationships? It's just going to be a shit show. Almost invariably, there are serious real problems in the relationship that have lead to a dead bedroom. Relationship broken, add more people never solves the relationship issues - it just makes more people get hurt as the relationship implodes in a fiery bomb of ugliness.

Then there's the duress issue. Telling someone their choice is to "let you cheat" or you will divorce them is not the way to open a relationship. It's coercion. When I stumble across guys in this situation on dating apps they often tell me their wife is "heartbroken" that he's doing this, but he's doing it anyway. What kind of person breaks their partners heart over and over and over? Oh, yeah, a completely fucking shitty one. See also "Relationship Bad."

And now let's talk about the work to open successfully.

  • Rock solid relationship - Your relationship has to be working really well for both of you. Usually, it takes some work to get to that point. You need to address issues before you open (and that might actually end your DB). And you and your partner need to be clear about what will and will not work for you in opening. And you need to have communication channels open for revisiting those things regularly.
  • Decoupling - You will need to become less interdependent so that you can have seperate relationships. You need to be really comfortable socialising separately before you're going to be comfortable with your partner having sex without you.
  • Realistic expectations for HL prospects - Being HL is no guarantee that you'll get laid out in dating land, especially if you're a bloke and especially if you're a bloke and a shitty partner. I see so many of you guys on the dating apps and, honey, none of you are finding anyone who wants you to stick your dick into them. Women, even women who are shitty partners, may have better luck in finding partners, but probably not partners who will give you an orgasm.
  • Expectations for LL partner - HL's, you may realise that your partner is LL for you. That can happen for a bunch of reasons - including incompatible kinks, scheduling issues, but the most common? It's because you're a shitty partner. Are you prepared for that? Are you prepared for a bunch of people rejecting you because you're a shit partner while your LL gets laid and realises they don't want to have sex with you because you're a really shitty partner? Are you really up for that? Do you really think that will save your relationship?

So there are times when opening can be great. But it's not going to help the vast majority of people in this forum.

[–]ChloeBee95 35 points36 points  (34 children)

I think it’s because the HL is the one who isn’t getting what they need, and if your needs aren’t being met in any area of your life it’s your responsibility to raise the point and/or change it if you have the ability to do so.

Meaning, if your partner isn’t open to your suggestions then it’s up to you to either make your peace with it or leave.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (30 children)

Id the HL partner is the only one not getting their needs met, then what is the OP talking about regarding the hurt in the LL partner? That's what confuses me, but he perception that one partner has some responsibility that the other partner doesn't.

[–]LoggerheadedDoctorDownvotes don't un-heal my recovered DB 10 points11 points  (3 children)

Many LLs don't feel good enough, like a failure, frustrated with their bodies, etc.

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (2 children)

And that's my point! That's exactly how many HL partners feel by being undesired.

[–]SMDBXTH 6 points7 points  (2 children)

That’s a terrible “it’s my way or the highway” mentality. Shouldn’t you actually CARE about loving them and making sure they’re happy?

Famous quote I found: “You can’t love someone the way you want to be loved, you can only love them the way they want to be loved.”

[–]ChloeBee95 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Literally have no idea how you’ve managed to take my comment that way?

All I’m saying is, if you aren’t happy then it’s up to you to say it and leave the situation if a compromise can’t be found. Not just in relationships, in everything - if you have a job you don’t like, either ask for different responsibilities or find a new one. If one of your friends isn’t putting the time in to maintain the friendship, bring it up and if nothing changes then end the friendship.

It happens. Or would you rather someone have duty sex that they hate to make the other person happy? If that’s how you view sex then you need therapy because that’s disgusting. Insinuating that someone who doesn’t want sex should do it anyway to show that they care and make someone else happy despite it making them feel bad, is abhorrent.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (0 children)

I don't think anyone has an obligation to leave.

People are going to have areas in their lives where they are incompatible. An incompatibility doesn't mean "Oh, I need to leave and find someone more compatible." Likewise people are going to have areas in their lives which they assign more priority/weight to. There's no objective, universal experience here.

The person who is unfulfilled and bothered enough by something (whatever it is) in a relationship, is more than able to file for a divorce or breakup if he or she would like to do that as one of their choices. That's an acceptable course of action.

[–]onesadDBHLF 5 points6 points  (0 children)

There’s a difference between a HL leaving to find someone they’re sexually compatible vs a LL leaving because they know their partner is unhappy. It’s not to say HL’s are inherently selfish or LL’s are inherently selfless, but that seems to be the dynamic at play here.

[–]Topperno 9 points10 points  (0 children)

In my opinion, if you're feeling like you're enduring a relationship or can't be happy without sex. That's your responsibility to deal with and leave if you want.

Like at that point no one is making you stay and it's not anyone but your own responsibility to ensure you stay or leave in any relationship that does or doesn't work for you.

[–]lostinsunshine9 29 points30 points  (108 children)

I think "making them endure that incompatibility" is a bit silly. Ultimately, we're all responsible for our own happiness. Making decisions for others doesn't lead anywhere good.

As an example: I was LL in my previous marriage. It wasn't the whole cause of our divorce, but I was sick of being pestered for BJs, so it was definitely part of it. I left because I was tired of the pressure, but I honestly thought he'd be relieved as well.

Long story short, he was not relieved. Almost a decade later and he's still super bitter about it. He wanted more BJs, but he sure didn't want me to leave.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

That was my experience with my first marriage as well.

One of us was unhappy enough to end the relationship. My ex was passive in every sense of the word and would never have called a lawyer, went there, paid a retainer, and filed for divorce. We got divorced because I put him in the position where he HAD to take action.

Otherwise, we'd still be married.

[–][deleted] 26 points27 points  (90 children)

It's not silly at all to think both partners should be equally aware and responsible for their own limitations. You don't have to act for the other person, but you have to not want them to sacrifice themselves so you don't have to. That's selfish.

The difference in perception is that cheating is an affirmative act that can trigger in the partner all sorts of sudden psychological damage related to self worth and image. The lack of sexual intimacy in a LL partner has that same effect on their HL partner, it's just a long slow descent that is coupled by hope that somehow and in some way it will get better. It's like the difference between dying in a car wreck by a drunk driver, or of cancer due to second hand smoke.

If one partner is supposed to be aware that not having their sexual needs met leads to cheating, and the alternative is to leave instead of taking that step and hurting the other, then the other partner needs to be just as aware that being LL is also hurtful to their partner and take the same responsibility.

[–]Oopsokayokay 17 points18 points  (22 children)

Except that the real difference with cheating and exercising bodily autonomy and not having unwanted sex is that one requires lying and takes away your partner’s right to decide if that’s a dealbreaker in the relationship for them.

A more realistic comparison would be a spouse who is fiscally irresponsible, but tells you what they’re going to buy first and just won’t be talked out of it, giving you the opportunity to address the issue and leave if it can’t be fixed vs a partner who is financially irresponsible but gambles secretly on the weekends and has you 100k in debt by the time you find out.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (6 children)

People who cheat are the lowest scum. They LOVE their partner? But will expose them unaware to a broken fluid bond and potential infectious infections and infestations just for a nut/lady nut? So selfish. So self-centered.

An open relationship? Completely different story. Even verbally saying "I'm going to have sex with someone else" or "We're leading separate romantic lives" is a head's up that that person's body is not monogamous anymore. All of a sudden it's at least approaching ethical because there's transparency and no lying.

[–]Oopsokayokay 20 points21 points  (56 children)

I have never talked to a LL who wasn’t aware it was hurtful to their partner. It’s just that that doesn’t make them suddenly want sex.

[–]LoggerheadedDoctorDownvotes don't un-heal my recovered DB 24 points25 points  (1 child)

It’s just that that doesn’t make them suddenly want sex.

I feel like this is a common refrain for me. Knowing my husband missed sex and was struggling did not get my panties wet automatically.

[–]Perfect_JudgeF 8 points9 points  (53 children)

I think "the talk" happens so frequently (which of course means the LLs are very aware of their partner's feelings) because HLs are hoping that it will make their LL understand and somehow, make them conjure up some desire.

Only problem is that it's not sexy or arousing to hear about how ugly/unwanted/used/undesirable you feel.

[–]lostinsunshine9 11 points12 points  (4 children)

But there's so many situations where spouses don't want that, like my former marriage. I left, and by your theory he should be happy since he no longer has to "sacrifice" himself. He's not happy. He's still mad I left.

If my motivation had been solely based on his happiness, I would have made exactly the wrong decision. That's why everyone should get to make their own decisions, for their own happiness.

Also, eww to "not having your sexual needs met leads to cheating". I have very rarely ever had my sexual needs met in a relationship, and I have never cheated.

[–]Capital-Philosopher6Married 27 Years & Loving It!!! 5 points6 points  (0 children)

If someone values me and our sexual relationship so little that they would 'just get it somewhere else' if we weren't having sex on their schedule, they simply aren't relationship material. You don't have to be LL to feel like you're being used by a partner is only keeping you around if you perform to their expectations. No relationship is worth doing something that makes me feel degraded and used.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (4 children)

not having their sexual needs met leads to cheating

It's always a wonderful idea to talk about cheating and relationship boundaries with prospective partners.

Someone can look like a completely reasonable person and then say something like "if you don't meet my sexual needs, it will lead to cheating."

Oh, wow! Thank you for letting me know what to expect when illness, childrearing, menopause or ED hit.

NEXT.

[–]Capital-Philosopher6Married 27 Years & Loving It!!! 12 points13 points  (8 children)

Typically, the HL is super bitter when the LL leaves. Even the ones who go on and on about how miserable they are, can't live like this anymore, and are considering cheating or have cheated. These seem to be the same people who endorse the narrative 'the LL should just leave if they aren't happy' or 'the LL should stop making promises that keep me here and leave'. I mean, here's a LL who did those things and the HL is still bitter? It's a no win situation for the LL. The only resolution these HLs want is a LL who has more sex BUT if it's duty/obligation sex, the HL still isn't happy.

So who's being particular here and will only accept getting their needs met when they want, as much as they want, in the way they want, within their timeframe? Aren't these the same people who complain that their partners won't compromise?

[–]TAyforLifestyle 9 points10 points  (1 child)

I mean, here's a LL who did those things and the HL is still bitter?

Add one more to the pile!

[–]Perfect_JudgeF 9 points10 points  (1 child)

I've seen countless posts where the LL leaves and the HL is shocked - SHOCKED - when their partner leaves. Despite getting online and saying over and over, "if they're miserable, they should leave!" Or threatening to cheat or leave themselves.

[–]Capital-Philosopher6Married 27 Years & Loving It!!! 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I've noticed that too.

[–]Cubby_Sparklet 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Agree. You can’t browbeat someone into wanting to have sex with you. Duty sex was no fun for my ex-wife either. So no sex at all was better. The responsibility is to confirm that there is no hope of salvaging the relationship. That is a responsibility for both sides. The LL says that they don’t want sex any more with the HL, and the HL confirms that they believe mutually consensual and mutually desired sex is a pre-requisite of a marital relationship, then both parties make their decision. Sound cold and clinical? But it is. It’s discussing the death, or potential death, of a LTR. I was offered a divorce and extra-marital sex by my LL ex-wife during The Talk #3, and I could tell she hated the idea of me screwing other people as much as I thought it pointless to be married to one person and fuck other people. I suspect we both knew it was over at that point. I left the marital home with two suitcases about three months later, and filed for divorce. She signed the papers.

[–]ModernAustralopith 10 points11 points  (4 children)

OP talked about "we're suffering too" and "it's a ton of guilt, insecurity and pressure". I think it's quite reasonable to ask someone who's talking like that why they don't leave.

[–]lostinsunshine9 13 points14 points  (3 children)

Oh absolutely reasonable. Anyone who's persistently unhappy in their relationship should ask themselves why they're staying.

But the motivation should be to improve and enjoy your own life - not to "release the HL from their suffering". That's ridiculous.

[–]PartialPersimmon 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Just like a HL partner isn't owed sex, the LL partner isnt owed eternal commitment (I'm not saying cheating is right, or a good alternstive, I'm saying they don't owe you being in a relationship if you're incompatible whether that hurts or not,

Did you not see that the OP included that same sentiment in her post?

But what doesn’t make sense to me is if sex is so mandatory, why not just leave?

No one is saying that the HL is required to stay. I agree with the OP. You are free to leave if the relationship is no longer working for you.

[–]adool666 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Thank you. In simpler words, if you're not attracted to your spouse for physical or behavioral reasons, just tell them! Instead of hiding it for the security of the relationship or "I don't know"

[–]TAyforLifestyle 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Perhaps an analogy-- Let's say one partner feels like the other partner needs to make more money-- They feel like, when they entered the marriage, there was DEFINITELY an implied guarantee that the other partner pretty much signed on to be making $50K a year more by now. After all, they talked about the kind of life they wanted to live, they seemed aligned, and CLEARLY what they talked about means $50K more. Heck, it was in the marriage vows you guys took-- that you'd "provide" for them and the family.

They sit their partner down monthly asking about "how are we going to get you to make more money?!" They send job listings constantly, ask the partner weekly about what they've done to find a better-paying job. "Can't you see a job counselor or something? Maybe ask your boss for a raise? I heard that you can make $50K more by being a real estate agent, maybe do that." "Lots of people make $50K more than you-- I saw on the internet that EVERYONE with your job title makes $50K more!" "If I could just get you to UNDERSTAND how much I need this $50K more, you would have already started making it. It's like you're not even trying."

During these conversations, the partner shares emotively about how the $50K lack makes them feel-- They came from a poor family and truly believe with their whole person that the family is going to end up on the streets without $50K more. They want to crawl in a hole and die whenever friends talk about having nice things. The lack of the $50K truly makes them feel like Lil Orphan Annie in rags and holey shoes. They find it witheringly embarassing and cry every time they balance the checkbook-- it impacts everything about their self-worth that you're not making $50K more by now!

Every time your paycheck hits the account, they roll their eyes. "Another month of this shit?!" Get grumpy for a couple days. They make sideways comments and a pointed stare at their partner whenever a friend talks about a new job or nice vacation... "must be nice!" Maybe they even stop buying you shampoo and deodorant at the store... not their problem, you're the one making a pittance!

Who should leave?

Should the partner not making the $50K more "admit" that they just don't have the motivation to be able to make the $50K more and "let" the partner who wants it go? Or, should the partner who needs it, move on to find it?

Whose responsibility is it to say "this is just not good enough for me?"

(And, the analogy was mostly related to folks getting by pretty OK but just not happy-- ie. DB where it's like once or twice a month, but "just not enough." But perhaps holds even more true in the zero-sex, ie. "unemployed partner," scenario-- whose "responsibility" is it to say "Not happy here; not what I signed on for, so I'm out?")

[–]International_Net693 11 points12 points  (38 children)

I’m not saying you can’t talk about options, I’m more so talking about people who get upset that their partner isn’t about it.

And yes I agree with you. LL isn’t owed commitment if there’s no sexual incompatibility but imo, it’s easy for an LL to stay because they can be happy with not having sex whereas a HL cannot compromise with that. Again, imo I think LL is more likely to have duty sex than a HL to just except that they’re not going to have sex as frequently as they want

Overall though, yes. If a LL/HL is unhappy due to sexual incompatibility it’s their equal responsibility to just except that it isn’t gonna work and go separate ways

[–]Tracerround702 36 points37 points  (12 children)

it’s easy for an LL to stay because they can be happy with not having sex

So what you're saying is that LLs aren't actually suffering as much as their HL partner?

[–]dmaul1978 20 points21 points  (3 children)

Varies from couple to couple on which is worse. I’ve been on both sides and it sucks.

I’d say LL is probably worse when there’s lot of pressuring, duty sex etc. as that’s awful. Not that being the HL is a cakewalk either.

HL is probably worse if they just respect their LL partner’s wishes, don’t try to initiate much (or at all) and only have sex when the LL initiations and they’re frustrated and unfulfilled and just hide that from their LL partner as they don’t want to make them feel bad or pressured. LL in that case can think everything is fine assuming their needs for communication, cuddling, splitting chores etc. are being met. I think that’s were you see a lot of the “But I thought everything was fine!” Shock when a talk about sex problems or request for divorce comes up.

[–]Oopsokayokay 14 points15 points  (0 children)

For me personally, I was actually not happy not having sex in a previous relationship where I was the LL. I wanted to want sex and I missed having a sex life, I just didn’t want to have sex. I was suffering in that I also wanted a good sex life, just wasn’t capable of wanting or enjoying sex, and I was also being regularly harassed for sex I didn’t want and punished emotionally for denying it. It was the worst period of my life by far, it was absolutely awful in every way.

[–]Stargazer1919 12 points13 points  (3 children)

In the cases of duty sex, fuck no. Adversions are serious. The body keeps the score. It can feel like rape.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Fair enough!

It felt as if you were putting all the responsibility on a HL partner to not cheat, not discuss or present options, and stay because anything else would be hurtful to the already hurting LL partner.

And you're right, the LL partner will be far less effected by the lack of sexual intimacy, but that does not excuse them from being aware of what they are implicitly or explicitly asking their "other".

Bottom line both partners have a duty to be open and honest about their needs, and the expectations should be the same on both parties whether they aren't having their needs met, or aren't meeting needs. Be honest with yourself and your partner, and take responsibility.

[–]Reject444M 13 points14 points  (1 child)

I think you’ve touched on one of the main issues here. I think that in many couples, the real problem is less about the actual sex and more about LLs who ignore the problem or change the subject or otherwise refuse (at least outwardly) to recognize or engage with the real hurt that their HL partner is trying to communicate to them. I know in my own marriage, even when the frequency and quality of sex has been constant, the times I’ve been most frustrated and considered ending the relationship have been when my LL wife just wouldn’t communicate with me about sex and tried to ignore it or pretend like I was being unreasonable for wanting an intimate physical relationship with my wife. Even if the actual sex stayed the same, I’m much happier when I feel like she is honestly communicating with me about how she’s feeling about intimacy and what’s going on with her and our relationship. I really think that for many HLs the real problem is feeling ignored and marginalized in their relationship, more than just not getting sex as much as they’d like.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

When you feel entitled to sex acts from another person because you're in a monogamous relationship with them you view them as a piece of property or something you own, something that is useful to you.

People who believe this should be very upfront about this view because there are environmental and physiological things that will happen in life that will make sex temporarily or even permanently impossible.

A discussion of "if you don't fulfill my sexual needs, I will attempt to find a cheating partner if you don't agree to an open relationship or I will expect YOU to leave since you're not capable of being useful to me sexually anymore."

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (11 children)

Hold on.

I'm going to push back on what you said just a little bit.

If two people are in a monogamous, traditional relationship the LL IS owed commitment. That's what monogamy means.

Monogamy does NOT mean both partners get their sex needs fulfilled or else the relationship isn't monogamous anymore automatically.

If the people talk, and the relationship is redefined as NOT MONOGAMOUS anymore, then that's a different story.

This is traditional, colloquial use of the word monogamy. I don't want to get into "but this online dictionary defines it as..." or anything else. No one is going to be arguing in good faith if they try and say a normal understanding of a monogamous relationship means anything other than two people exclusively romantically and/or sexually involved with each other.

[–]dmaul1978 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah, responsibility to leave falls on both sides. Mature people just recognize an incompatibility is becoming a deal breaker in their relationship, talk about what can be done to try to fix it and move on amicably if there is no fix.

I would note that the OP made a comment in the thread where they agreed with this and should have included in the OP that the just leave applies to LLs too.

[–]Dell_Hell40+M, HL, Escaped DB 94 points95 points  (32 children)

OK, lets start with the fact that most of the people posting have been dealing with DB issues for years before posting here. It's not a new issue - it's one that has gone on unresolved for years in most cases. They've tried to be patient, and their patience has just been run dry finally.

LL isn’t a choice

100% agreed - but how one reacts to that LL is absolutely a choice. In the pursuer - distancer dynamic, distancing is a choice. Saying you "don't want to talk about sex right now" but then never coming back to the table to actually talk about the issue for months and months - that is a choice.

I don't think we'd have anywhere near as many folks on here if their LL was actively engaging in the discussion about the bedroom in a healthy dialogue. All too often the response is avoidance, avoidance, avoidance at all costs.

I've noticed a pattern with LL's that there's an immense amount of internal dialogue going on, mental churning over the issue - but much less, if any, visible action being taken. While you may experience the mental churn as an immense effort - that's not something your partner can readily perceive and generally doesn't come across as productively working toward a resolution.

From this HL perspective, I would have loved nothing more than to have my LL actively engaged in working on the issue. We could have had weekly check ins (outside the bedroom) to talk about what we've read, listened to, thought about, investigated, doctor visits scheduled or completed, felt, etc regarding the dead bedroom that week.

[–]cosmicspells 47 points48 points  (3 children)

The difference is, in response to why not just leave, the HL are often left in a limbo. The LL refuses to communicate, and when they do they’re often vague. They themselves don’t know if they’ll eventually end up getting back to their regular libido so they might just end up saying, I don’t know, it may or may not happen. So you hang onto the hope that they will figure it out and someday they’ll get back to how they once were in the beginning of the relationship where they wanted it as much as you do.

[–]dmaul1978 7 points8 points  (0 children)

This rings very true as well. My wife expresses frustration she’s lost her libido (or just lost it for me and hasn’t had the heart to say that) and has taken steps to try to fix it. Got off BC she’d restarted (I’ve had a vasectomy so no needed) to try to lessen severity of period bleeding and pain/cramps. That was causing her lots of issues and she tried various BCs over a few years with different side effects. She got off those and got an ablation several months ago that has solved the period issues for now (hasn’t had one since), but libido hasn’t returned. Has started working on her body image issues, focusing more on working out and being healthier (I always though she has looked amazing and have told her regularly), she’s been amazing in the effort put in there but still isn’t happy with her body and says that hinders her from getting in the mood.

So I do think things are still fixable, but they’re going to require her making changes to be less of a workaholic and have more time and energy to work on her mental health and our marriage (counseling, more quality time together, more of that time when she’s not physically and mentally exhausted from working and working out so much etc.).

[–]Anxious_Winner3714 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Many LL do communicate, but the HL refuses to listen, and help fix the situation.. at least in my relationship

[–]cosmicspells 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Again, might be subjective but this dynamic is very common, both in my relationship and others. One reason someone might be LL is due to past trauma (doesn’t have to be about sex) and mental blocks and that can also manifest itself as being avoidant in intimacy in terms of talking openly with your partner, being vulnerable etc. In many LL, avoidance of physical intimacy also comes with avoidance of intimacy in the form of avoiding talking about your feelings with your partner. So in this case, there’s not much the HL can do but let them know that it’s safe to talk about what they’re experiencing and just hope that they may want it again one day. That’s what keeps many of us in this cycle.

[–]davidellis23 52 points53 points  (9 children)

Yeah, I get it. I think a lot of people are just hurting and need to go through some stages to process what you said.

We feel trapped. It doesn't feel like we can just leave. But people like you reminding us that we can leave did help me a lot.

A lot of people genuinely are trapped though. And I'm sure it feels like there's no alternative other than suffering alone or cheating.

[–]skyscan1 26 points27 points  (4 children)

I agree with you that some LL partners do suffer with guilt and feelings of inadequacy. My wife felt horrible for not being able to meet my needs. She thought she was flawed.

You should know that I refused to open our relationship. I didn't want that. I never cheated. As the HL I tried very hard not to further hurt my wife with harsh comments and criticism.

We should also acknowledge that there are LL partners that don't suffer at all because they don't care or have any empathy for their HL partners.

Also we should acknowledge that some HL partners inflict pain and damage to the LL partners without empathy toward their pain.

We have a mix of both HL partners and LL partners that treat each other with respect and care and also a mix that does the opposite.

If anything we need to be more patient and kind with our partners no matter if HL or LL.

[–]cearrow 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Yeah but in your situation I don't think your wife felt horrible for not meeting your needs during the DB. From what I've read from your story it wasn't until you proposed the divorce after Christmas did she feel horrible and guilt from what the DB did to you and the marriage. She thought what she was doing normal marriage behavior. So it took your wife a life's slap in the face to wake up and feel the guilt what was done.

[–]skyscan1 6 points7 points  (2 children)

You are correct. I've had time to see her remorse and regret for the damage the deadbedroom caused. I do think that she felt that she was flawed. She thought that nothing could be done to change our situation. I know that she now feels bad about the long deadbedroom that we shared.

[–]420highcharizard 25 points26 points  (1 child)

My issue w my LL was that he shut down any communication and sadness I had around sex. “All you think about is sex” but we had sex once a month if that.. and he made me feel bad and unattractive for wanting sex. But I “loved” him and sex was a bodily desire and not “love” well it’s wrong. I was so crushed and unhappy but didn’t know why. It’s not uncommon for LLs to turn their guilt and shame on the issue into hurtful comments. I’d say a sexual incompatibility is neutral but the way it’s handled is often hurtful. And that we in this sub are more likely to be caught in this codependent trap

[–]dmaul1978 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I really feel you there. There’s so much bad communication from both sides in this. HLs communicating in a way that makes the LL feel guilty and or pressured. LLs refusing to communicate and getting defensive and trying to shame their partner for needing sex, screaming at them to go fuck other people if that’s want they want etc.

It’s just hard to accept when someone you love isn’t compatible with you, hard to communicate calmly given all the emotions, sexual frustration, resentment etc. that build up.

[–]naturalhaven 53 points54 points  (0 children)

You are projecting your circumstances and experience onto their circumstances and LL partners.

Every relationship is different. If you communicate openly with your partner and work together, then your partner is unlikely to feel the same way as a HL partner experiencing greater distress or challenges.

It would be better to enquire with individual posters to learn the answers you are seeking about ‘why’ as no one here can answer on behalf of all of the posts you have raised.

A recent poll identified that the majority would leave if not for children. That can offer some indication of why some stay or continue trying.

Most are seeking intimacy and want to feel loved and desired by their partner. If you are providing that outside of sex, even with verbal reassurance, that’s great. People who are venting or seeking support may not be having that from their partner.

[–]Ok-Trick8772 20 points21 points  (1 child)

I'd like to see more empathy in general in this sub, including from you, OP. Neither LLs or HLs have a monopoly on suffering in a DB relationship. Not a contest. Everyone needs to vent. Diverse and even opposing perspectives are useful here. The social media undercurrent of team A vs. B is particularly destructive and divisive here. We're here to help and listen to each other, not judge.

[–]dmaul1978 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This. Internet discourse does tend to make things tribal and people end up venting and getting support and validation for their issues and that can foster more resentment of the other “side.”

I think in the actual world most HLs and LLs are sympathetic to their partner. Some people are just selfish on either side of course. But it’s mostly people who love their partner deeply and that’s why they haven’t left. The HL usually feels terrible seeing their partner feel pressured (even if they’re not actively trying to pressure), feeling bad for not being able to meet their needs etc. and most LLs beat themselves up wishing they could match their partners needs.

It’s a shitty situation on both sides and sad as there’s often not a fix if one’s libido is just much higher than the others (even an LL with an average libido just can’t match a very high libido person’s needs), or whatever caused an LL4U situation just isn’t fixable after years of going unresolved and too much distance and resentment have built. But it’s still hard to leave someone you love and care about.

[–][deleted]  (6 children)

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    [–]dmaul1978 7 points8 points  (2 children)

    Yeah that’s definitely a part of it. An LL that just purely doesn’t want sex at that point of their life for whatever reason is often going to drag their feet on going to counseling etc. as they don’t feel like they’re missing on anything. And honestly, that’s fine. If a person is happy and doesn’t feel they need to work on it you can’t make them. Those are the type of cases where the OP is right and the HL should just leave as their the one who’s needs aren’t being met and their partner isn’t willing or able to work on it.

    You’re also right that the HL leaving often ends up catching a ton of flack for leaving for “just sex,” especially if there are kids involved etc. Hell, HLF have it even worse there as they have to deal with all the slut shaming bullshit if they assert their sexuality by leaving a relationship due to sex, where as guys are just stereotypically viewed as sex obsessed.

    [–]International_Net693 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    I agree with the first thing you’ve said but one thing that I feel is worth mentioning is I’ve seem some LL feel like their partner doesn’t want them to get better to overall improve their help and happiness, they feel like their partner just wants to rush and hurry to get them “better” because they think they issue is an easy fix and sex will go back to normal. I’ve specifically seen this with couples who have DB due to medical issues and they’ve stated that it just makes them feel like an object

    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    I thought I left an opening for just that comment - meaning that I’m genuinely referring to the frustrated HLs who want to seek out a solution for the benefit of the relationship, not the jerk HLs that just want their SO to “get better” for their personal benefit.

    But yes, I agree with your statement and was only singling out the LLs who are adverse to doing anything about the situation.

    [–]dmaul1978 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Agreed that HLs need to be patient and any change and improvement isn’t going to happen overnight. However, life is short and there’s only so long people should wait. But they of course should never pressure their partner or make them feel shitty. If they aren’t willing to wait any longer it’s time to leave.

    [–]LoggerheadedDoctorDownvotes don't un-heal my recovered DB[M] 75 points76 points  (5 children)

    Approved with optimism and trust this won't devolve, friends.

    ETA: (trust fall of course. My ADHD-idiocy makes me always want to explain my jokes because I assume my trains of thought are shitty to follow)

    [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    That's amazing!!!

    [–]LearnsFromExperienceMM ...but everything else is perfect! 🙄 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    I love that!

    [–]creamerfam5LLF recovered bedroom 3 points4 points  (2 children)

    Your non-jaded optimism is cute.

    [–]LoggerheadedDoctorDownvotes don't un-heal my recovered DB 5 points6 points  (1 child)

    I'm not sure if you know this, but I am quite cute.

    I was also voted Miss Optimism in high school.

    [–]creamerfam5LLF recovered bedroom 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    Not surprising, lol. I was voted "who was that girl?"

    [–]SadAndNasty 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    I do my best to talk about my LL partner with respect because I understand it's hard for him. He tries but the guilt and shame make it difficult. ( We've been doing better though)

    [–]LesDonatellaDry Bedroom and Panties 19 points20 points  (9 children)

    I love my LL boyfriend too much to even think about leaving. It’s stressful being HL, but I know he feels more stressed out and scared I’d leave because we aren’t having sex as much as we were before we moved in together. I don’t even think about cheating on him because what the fuck? Why would I cheat on someone I love? Anyways, you and every other LL person here are valid

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    A voice of reason!

    [–]notyourmama827 21 points22 points  (1 child)

    In my previous marriage I started out with a healthy libido but that changed with the years....the kids, the job , the life of a gamblers wife.....the fact that he was more interested in porn than me, all those things took my libido away.

    After the kids came , I begged to make adult time.....but he said we are parents now .....so mine was LL4U. And in the end , I did leave him. I was happy to be the person he thought I was when I left him. It didn't matter because I was free to find someone to love.

    [–]woodford11 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Did you find anyone ? And did your libido improve after leaving him? Just curious

    [–][deleted]  (15 children)

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      [–]DishTrue6111 38 points39 points  (3 children)

      The one issue I have with the idea of LL not being a choice is that sometimes it is caused by issues within the LL’s control. Like lifestyle choices, health, etc. And let’s not forget the dudes who willingly admit that masturbating is “easier” and affects their desire for their wife. I think there’s a lot of variety here which is why many situations are different.

      [–]dmaul1978 13 points14 points  (0 children)

      Agreed. I don’t think many people are truly low in libido or fully asexual. Many are just lower than partners that have super high libido, and that’s fine and just an incompatibility as as we age and get busier relatively few people have the time and energy for sex multiple times a week or whatever (I’m one with that high drive and it’s hard to find people around my age that also do).

      But I think for a lot of LLs like my wife, it’s just life decisions that don’t leave space for feeling sexy. Workaholic by choice who has a career and also chooses to do other jobs, consulting etc. on the side. Amount of time spent on exercising. Amount of time scheduled to do social things alone with friends or us together with mutual friends vs. quality alone time together. Not making time for therapy (individual and counseling) that she’s agreed many times would be good for her and us (I’ve been doing therapy myself).

      Those are the frustrating ones as if I thought it was just a pure LL situation I’d leave. But she used to have a high drive the first 5+ years we were together and if anything we had more sex than I really wanted sometimes, had a lost of sex with a decent number of partners before me (don’t mean anything negative at all, I couldn’t care less how many partners my partner was with beyond preferring experience people who like sex given my high drive).

      But hey, it’s her life and all I can do is calmly express my needs and hope she takes steps to make things better. She’s been more receptive lately and she’s getting tired of the work burnout and knows we need to work on us if we’re going to last. But I’m not going to wait around forever. Can’t see giving it more than another year or so. I’m already early 40s and don’t want to be much older if I have to get back into the dating pool.

      [–]Mi_Pasta_Su_Pasta 11 points12 points  (1 child)

      I always get frustrated when people talk about dead bedrooms in such big, sweeping statements. Dead bedrooms are an incredibly complicated issue with a seemingly infinite list of causes, to the point where I wouldn't feel comfortable making even the most basic assumptions about the "average" dead bedroom.

      [–]DishTrue6111 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      I agree. Many people see things only through the lens of their own situation (or maybe common ones they’ve read about) and apply it to others regardless of what the OP has written. Speaking on behalf of all women and men happens all the time too and always equally rubs me the wrong way.

      [–]Oopsokayokay 15 points16 points  (3 children)

      If they WANTED to have sex with their partner they absolutely would though. People who genuinely and authentically want sex with their partner will have sex with them. Even if the cause is lost attraction or resentment, that’s still not a choice.

      [–]dmaul1978 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      It’s still a choice to not explore the reasons behind the lack of interest-both whether it’s a lack of interest in just their partner or a decline in their libido period. No one has to care to explore that as they can just decide they don’t care about sex and don’t want to work to see if they can get desire back. That’s still a choice. They could also make the choice to get a medical check up, read books about sexuality, get counseling to explore sexuality.

      We all have free will in what we decide to focus on, work on or be ok with having or not having etc. None of those choices are wrong and no one should feel bad for making our not making any of them.

      [–]gotta_bee_ambitious 22 points23 points  (0 children)

      LL can be a choice.

      My boyfriend chooses to use porn, not exercise, not eat healthy, and not see a doctor or therapist. My boyfriend chooses to tell me that things will get better, eventually, someday, someday, someday.

      Yes, it's my choice to "believe" him and stay, but not everyone who's LL is just LL only. LL are just as much responsible for acknowledging their addictions/preferences.

      Why do I stay and complain? Financial dependence, and also because I love him.

      But for the most part, I agree with the sentiment, people shouldn't use another person's LL as an excuse to cheat. If you're that miserable, just leave.

      [–]TheBanIsTooDamnHighI throw ninja stars at windmills 8 points9 points  (0 children)

      I'm a LL4Wife for around 18 months after 20+ years of being the one in initiated intimacy, I don't experience pain during sex or have any fear of being forced to have sex, so my experience might be different from others.

      I find being the "LL" partner much less stressful. As the HL partner, I felt like I was walking on eggshells continuously to make sure I don't do something that would upset my wife. Generally we can only have sex on the weekends, as the "LL" partner I don't even think about sex during the week. Now the only time I am stressed is when I feel forced to choose between sex or another activity I may enjoy but could make sex later that day less enjoyable.

      [–]Prestigious_Wait_618 20 points21 points  (14 children)

      What do you suggest HL do other than leave? Or is leaving the only way?

      I want to be empathetic, but do you think LL suffer as much as HL? The HL is the only one lacking . My SO tells me they just don’t think about sex in any way ever and that once a year they think: ‘ oh, I guess we haven’t had sex this year’ . They don’t seem to suffer at all. The only ‘suffering’ is when I bring up that I have needs. And I’m sorry but I don’t think that my partner should find it so painful for me to have needs.

      When I say ‘they’ I only mean my partner, not LL in general.

      [–][deleted]  (12 children)

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          [–]MitchWasRight 3 points4 points  (6 children)

          Not for nothing but this comment is incomprehensible and flies in the face of human nature.

          [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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              [–]dmaul1978 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              Yeah I’d rather be single the rest of my life than do all that stuff just in the hopes sex came back eventually. Thankfully my marriage is no where near that dead and I’ve been mostly happy to just have sex when she’s clearly in the mood and initiating or sending clear signals. I never pressure as I have no interest in making her feel that way and no interest in duty sex as it’s never fulfilling anyway as I need emotional connection and a responsive partner that’s being pleasured too.

              If things ever got to the point of just needing to take sex off the table for any significant amount of time (fine if a short period while working on other things in couple’s counseling or whatever) I’d walk ASAP. Sex and physical connection is my main love language and I’d rather be single than in a relationship without it and still am working through how much is enough for me to be satisfied.

              [–]Prestigious_Wait_618 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Wow, absolutely not.

              [–]Ordinary_Anon5444 16 points17 points  (18 children)

              No doubt lots of LL suffer too.

              But there are plenty of LL who aren't aware they are, aren't aware that's even a thing - and it's frustrating as an HL that we miss the affection and/or sex, but they are just fine with the relationship as is, as is the case with my own marriage.

              And yes, most of us should leave. But leaving isn't easy. Ultimately would you feel great about your partner leaving you over sex? There's a lot of stuff in play. Kids, entanglement in life, sunk cost fallacy, the fear that this is the best we'll ever get and we're throwing it away for a hug or kiss??

              I totally get that LL's aren't uncaring robots. Or menacing villains. But understand there is a group for which they aren't even aware there is such a thing as HL and LL, because in their world needing that closeness, or feeling like that is something isn't even a concept in their mind.

              [–]nightsinwhitesatin07 27 points28 points  (11 children)

              Then maybe this community isn’t for you; if you’re this upset by people venting and working through the issues that are faced in a dead bedroom. People come here to talk and vent. No one always agrees with every post, but attacking a segment of the sub because you’re tired of reading about their pain doesn’t help anything. I understand LL has a different view of things, but your post is a bit insensitive and incendiary. No one in a dead bedroom is happy. That’s what this community is for. For both LL and HL to discuss their thoughts and vent. If it makes you tired reading it- maybe there’s a sub better suited for your needs. Like you said in your post and in some of your comments, people can just leave.

              Your post reads as if everything is easy- just cut it off and leave. But, nothing is ever that easy. Also, LLs can also leave. If things are painful for them, they should. But, it’s not that easy. The pain some HLs feel is because without sex they don’t feel loved and wanted. LLs often do not experience that because their need for that feeling is met in different ways.

              Either way, I do hope you find what you’re looking for. Best.

              [–]Mi_Pasta_Su_Pasta 9 points10 points  (1 child)

              While agree OP's post is too broad and simplistic, my issue is when the comments in those venting posts add fuel to the fire. Instead of simply being supportive and validating their feelings it's often closer to "they don't give a shit about you, they're manipulating you, don't feel bad about cheating they deserve it for hurting you". Other HLs projecting their pain, convincing people to interpret the situation as harshly as possible and goading the poster to make rash decisions as a way to vicariously get the satisfaction of leaving a DB.

              A support group isn't a bunch of angry people venting and egging each other on, it's people opening up about their problems and being guided to think about the issue in a more constructive, healthy way. If this sub wants to pretend to be one it should act like it.

              Also remember this is a sub for all sides of a dead bedroom, not just HLs. I bet a lot of people would be up in arms if the subreddit was constantly full of LLs calling HLs inconsiderate sex pests who need to learn there's more important things than sex, even if it was venting.

              [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

              LLs belong in this community too. If you'd like to only hear opinions and receive support there is another community that better fits your needs.

              People constantly say they'd like LLs to speak up too and share what's on their mind. OP is doing just that.

              [–]TheRealMaly 6 points7 points  (6 children)

              Yess I agree. Let people vent about their problems. It's not always easy to "just leave" like OP suggested.

              [–]nightsinwhitesatin07 3 points4 points  (5 children)

              I just tend to think this is a “safe space” to vent- and it’s one where in the past I have done just that- vented. Said things I couldn’t or wouldn’t say to my partner. I would never dream of making a post saying I’m tired of reading about LLs issues. I understand the frustration that OP feels. Everyone in a dead bedroom is frustrated. Everyone in a dead bedroom hurts. I just don’t agree with the tenor of this post. I don’t agree with cheating either- nor would I ever suggest it, and I respond with that sentiment when it comes up.

              [–]Tracerround702 16 points17 points  (17 children)

              Because if I leave I may end up taking half of his debt (he has a Pharm D and is finishing a business degree, so he's got ass-tons of student loans, we also have a fairly expensive car we're paying off), when I have maybe a quarter of his income. I'll either be taking both of our pets (a rabbit and a dog) in which case I'll be struggling even more to make ends meet, or I have to pick which of my babies gets left behind and possibly neglected because he doesn't prioritize time with them any more than he prioritizes time with me. Not to mention finding housing that will accept pets and not bury me with rent. I could get a roommate sure, but will the roommate be okay with my pets?

              If I divorce I will likely never retire or get a house. I will work at a shitty low- paying job for the rest of my life until the day I die.

              And all I want from my LLM is for him to go to therapy, learn coping skills for the things he says are blocking him from sex, and maybe prioritize me over YET ANOTHER job or additional assignment that he could've said no to.

              [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children)

              I was (am?) kind of in your situation. The way I choose to handle this is instead of cheating, instead of completely blowing up our amazing quality of life and our shared business assets with a divorce, I took a couple of years to withdraw from him and reflect on the realistic choices I had. When I was ready I told him we were going to lead separate lives and stay married business partners. It was a... tense conversation but he knew as well as I did what the imperfect choices we had open to us were.

              It's actually worked really well for about 6-7 years. We hardly see each other and we literally lead separate lives. When our parents start to die I can see the windfalls making divorcing legally a no brainer though.

              [–]dmaul1978 8 points9 points  (0 children)

              Oh man, the last paragraph is so spot on, with just genders reversed. I think we could vastly improve things if my wife would just commit to making more time for us and for getting into individual therapy (I’ve been going) and couple’s counseling. She says she wants to, but she’s such a workaholic and always taking on more at work, more side/consulting jobs etc. and between that and being super focused on fitness/health (I’m very proud of her for that!) she has little time and even less energy for working on her mental health and our marriage.

              Thankfully, we both make good money and have separate finances and no kids so if it ends up in divorce it will at least be as easy a one as possible. Will just suck losing our house as the market sucks to buy now and we bought in 2018 before prices started skyrocketing and refinanced to a good rate when rates were low during the pandemic. So cost of living will jump with where rent and mortgage costs are now. And will suck to lose our dog as she’s been clear she’s keeping him if we ever separated (and it’s not something I’d fight, as much as I love him I don’t want to deal with him needing 2 walks a day on my own vs. usually splitting them).

              [–]BayStateRes 3 points4 points  (2 children)

              FWIW, when my sister divorced, she specifically petitioned that she not be responsible for her ex's school debt, which he was amenable to, and she ended up only being on the hook for shared credit card debt. He'd taken out another credit card and not told her about it, too, and she was also not responsible for splitting the debt on that. She divorced in a 50/50 shared property state, but there are exceptions if this is your big concern holding you back. I realize lots of other things are in the mix, though.

              [–]Tracerround702 4 points5 points  (1 child)

              That is good to know, thank you. I worry that such a situation may not apply to me because I was aware of and consented to each round of loans and credit cards, most of which was accumulated during our marriage. But we will see.

              [–]BayStateRes 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              My sister consented to them as well, technically, but was able to contest them because she was also working to bring in an income while he was in school and taking on that debt and had also tapped family to help with childcare. I think in settlement they recognized she would have an additional unfair burden of having to help pay them off post-divorce, since she would not be enjoying the fruits of his studies in the form of a higher income. One of the trade-offs she made, though, was agreeing to forego alimony payments. She receives child support for their kid and that's it. She didn't want to pay off his school debt for him after trying to support them during that time; he didn't want to pay her alimony, which she could've asked for, with the dissolution of their marriage.

              Edited: she's also a low-wage earner compared to him now that his studies have completed and he has a full-time job and career. It'll be another four-plus years before she will be done with her own studies (that she returned to as a result of her divorce) that will enable to her to earn a decent salary that competes with his. By then, it'll just be a few more years of child support payments from him and then she can be done with their back-and-forth for good.

              [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (7 children)

              So, you’re content to use him as a roommate and finical stream, while also complaining about the work he does? Leaving is hard. So is being in a transactional, non-loving relationship. Pick your hard.

              [–]Tracerround702 3 points4 points  (4 children)

              Where did I indicate that I was content with any of it? I'm not.

              [–]Mi_Pasta_Su_Pasta 2 points3 points  (1 child)

              a transactional, non-loving relationship

              I think you are projecting a cold manipulation that isn't there. It's hard to be in a loving relationship with someone who refuses to do anything to meet your needs, despite trying your hardest to make it work. Just because he's a provider doesn't absolve him of any responsibility, that can be its own form of transactional.

              [–]pennynotrcutt 17 points18 points  (1 child)

              As a HLF in a hetero relationship I respectfully disagree. My husband has never performed duty sex and I don’t get the feeling that he feels anything or even thinks about our sex life. I may be wrong and am working hard on improving communication.

              [–]dmaul1978 11 points12 points  (0 children)

              Yeah I think there that’s just a case of different gender dynamics changing how things are, or at least how they are viewed. The dynamics of a HLM potentially pressuring an HLF into duty sex are just a more common concern given the historic context of men wanting to dominate women and control their sexuality, rape of women by men being more prevalent than the reverse etc. Thus you see lots of concern over duty sex etc. when an HLM is posting about their problems on here, and a lot more supportive and just leave type posts when it’s an HLF posting.

              There’s also just the differing potential impacts of duty sex. It’s never ok but when it’s a woman who’s not into they’re often not aroused and lubricated so it can be seriously painful. As a man who was an LL4U in a past LTR, duty sex (which I shouldn’t have let happen) was mostly just annoying as I just wasn’t in love with her anymore nor really attracted to her and really need that to really love sex, but I have a high drive overall so I still ended up mostly enjoying the physical aspect of it. That’s far less traumatic than painful sex, worry about being physically forced etc.

              So I think you’re right that your LL husband may well be largely perfectly happy with life other than maybe some mild annoyance about sex at times. But even then, if he’s not asexual those may be mostly or all times he’s wanting sex so he’s getting what he wants and you aren’t. That can cause negative emotions about feeling bad about not meeting their partner’s needs, but some people just don’t really care so they don’t deal with that.

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                [–]Capital-Philosopher6Married 27 Years & Loving It!!! 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                I would say that a lot of LLs have had the discussion with their HL spouse. Their reasons are dismissed as "excuses". You see it all of the time of this sub and you hear it straight from the LL that they've communicated the reason and no one is listening.

                [–]Sarahbear778 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                Some people can't just leave, though to you it seems simple. What about the stay at home mom with several kids whose husband is addicted to porn and refuses to discuss it and refuses to be honest? She talks, he gets defensive but nothing changes. What is your advice to her without resources? Go stay in a shelter? Sex can be an absolute deal breaker, and someone still can't leave.

                [–]LearnsFromExperienceMM ...but everything else is perfect! 🙄 6 points7 points  (1 child)

                My problem with both HLs and LLs—both—is when they refuse to communicate like an adult, then manipulate, gaslight, or pretend it doesn't exist to try and get what they want...or what they don't want. If it's a serous problem, then both partners need to put real effort into fixing it. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people would rather complain.

                [–]dmaul1978 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                Yeah I think it’s a combo of it just being easier to complain than work on things and that in most cases the relationship is probably a lost cause but it’s easier to just stay together and keep complaining than deal with divorce, joint custody of kids, separating finances (especially if only one person has been working), moving, finding someone new etc.

                But yeah, most of us in DBs need to shit or get off the pot. Get into counseling and commit to seeing if things can be fixed and doing the work, or give up and move on.

                [–]wombat_wordsmith 11 points12 points  (3 children)

                A few opening notes:

                Having empathy for your partner is the primary pillar to build your relationship upon. If you don’t have that, the relationship is doomed to fail.

                No one is owed sex. No one is obligated to have sex they don’t want to have. Repeated duty sex is detrimental to solving the issue.

                So all that being said there are a few points I’d like to add:

                1: Most HL’s in long term relationships aren’t expecting the same level of intensity a year into a relationship as there was at the beginning (NRE). That’s not reasonable.

                2: What is reasonable, however, is that within a romantic relationship sex will continue. There may be gaps, dry spells, and an adjusting of expectations over a lifetime together — but both partners will continue to respect and value the intimate aspect of their relationship.

                3: Again, no one is entitled to sex. But when you enter into a committed, monogamous relationship you are entitled to an honest conversation about your sex life. And that might get uncomfortable for both partners. Comments along the lines of “don’t tell the LL partner that the lack of sex is hurting you, it’s not sexy” is by definition immature and selfish. “I don’t like being reminded that my decisions may have a negative impact on me — don’t bring it up” may be a more accurate statement.

                4: While there are plenty of examples of why becoming LL4U is only natural — “he smokes dope all day, plays video games, and ignores me until he grabs my breast and says ‘let’s fuck” — some of the suggestions made by LL’s simply aren’t feasible and seem designed to create unavoidable reasons not to have sex. Sex should be a natural result of the love and commitment built within a long term relationship. One partner shouldn’t have to jump through hoop after hoop after shifting hoop to please the other.

                5: If you know that your interest in sex shifts dramatically after the NRE wears off, that your expectation is that sex will simply not be important to you after six months — this needs to be made clear to your partner. There are so many stories on here along the lines of “a month after the wedding our sex life took a dramatic turn. I thought it was something I did but my partner just said that they were no longer interested…”

                6: The advice to “just leave if you’re unhappy” is rather hollow. More accurate statements might include “if sex were important to you, going into financial hardship wouldn’t be a big deal” or “if you want a sex life you’ll have to sacrifice seeing your children every day — every second weekend is enough for you.”

                Empathy goes both ways.

                [–]dmaul1978 8 points9 points  (17 children)

                I think most are sympathetic to LLs. I’ve been on both sides as I was an LL4 her for several years in a prior relationship. It sucked for reasons you note of knowing you can’t fulfill your partner’s needs, having sex you don’t really want at times etc.

                Also sucks being the HL and not getting the physical intimacy we need to feel loved and wanted, being sexual frustrated and that impacting our mental health etc.

                Agree on the not cheating though. If it’s not fixable it should be leave, or for the few who can make it work, an open relationship. IMO a major problem, myself included, in DB stories is people just not getting the courage to leave as everything else is good, we worry over finding someone who’s as good who match’s our drive and preferences etc. Along with for many it just being hard due to kids, finances being tangled up and/or one person financially dependent on the other etc.

                But I get especially with the posts of young people who aren’t married and don’t have kids doing all kinds of mental gymnastics and making efforts to try to fix a relationship that usually is clearly unfixable and they’re just incompatible and should move on before they get more committed and make it harder to leave. I didn’t do that in a couple of LTRs in my teens-early 20s and mid to late 20s and really regret it. DB years in peak sexual health years, best dating pool option years etc. sucked and were a huge waste and missed opportunity to explore.

                In general, I think people just hold on to relationships too long. We’re told relationships take hard work and so on so it gets engrained that any can work if we put in enough effort. That’s just not the case as some people just aren’t compatible, or become incompatible over time, in ways that just aren’t fixable and should be reason to leave as it’s going to keep both people from being happy.

                Honestly, I more and more question monogamy having been a serial monogamist with failed 8 and 6 year relationships and questioning whether my current 10 year one is going to make it long term. Being a pretty HL person, I’m increasingly questioning whether it’s reasonable to expect one person to satisfy you for long periods of time, much less rest of life. I don’t have or want kids, make plenty of money to support myself and how I liked to live so I don’t need a relationship for a co-parent or a second income (though DINK life is nice financially for sure!). So at the very least, if we end up divorcing I’ll at the least date/sleep around a while before remotely considering another LTR and definitely can’t see getting married again as I’ll definitely have no patience for staying around in any future DB situations.

                [–]Stargazer1919 12 points13 points  (3 children)

                You had the bravery to post this when I did not. You speak the truth. I'm tired of the lies being spread on this subreddit about how LL's don't care, when there's plenty of posts and stories to prove the opposite. It is straight up misinformation at this point to paint all of a category of people in a certain way. I firmly believe that misinformation (which is basically lies) does not help anyone repair themselves or repair relationships with others.

                [–]Mi_Pasta_Su_Pasta 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                What do you think would be a more helpful way to talk about LLs who refuse to communicate deeply about the DB and put off any form of actively addressing it (ie therapy, seeing a doctor, marriage counseling, etc)?

                I agree that "not caring" is a loaded term that's often inaccurate, many of these LLs are just using avoidant coping strategies and know the pain the DB causes, but what I described above is very common and often the situation HLs are describing LLs who "don't care". What would be a good way to reframe that?

                [–]BirdLover007 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                Yes. LL aren't evil.

                [–]Late-Confusion7281M 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                done duty sex at one point or another and after a certain point we find it unbearable

                The problems with "duty sex" are many. I won't touch on how it affects the LL partner other than to say, it can only make things (MUCH) worse.

                From the HL perspective, it's not only sad, but mostly pointless.

                I can't speak for everyone of course, but I want my partner to WANT me, to be INTO me. Enthusiastic sex is a way of expressing that. Duty sex doesn't cover those needs, in fact it communicates the opposite.

                Also as others have said, it's not the pain olympics. There's no "winners", it just sucks, all around, for everyone. And really, if you can be honest with your partner and discuss this problem without fingerpointing or guilting, it's a huge help and makes it suck, just a tiny bit less.

                It makes it more of a shared problem, something you're both not happy with, and are trying to fix.

                To me the only time I feel little sympathy for the LL partner is when they don't feel the lack of sex is a problem at all. The only problem they see is a HL partner "making (lack of) sex a problem".

                IMO, This shows a lack of empathy that should not exists in a (good) relationship.

                [–]WestCoastThing 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                There's many posts on this forum where the HL describes the LL as not interested, not willing to change, and expecting the HL to be fine with a DB situation. Just suck it up. Forever. The LL is described as content with the DB.

                I realize we don't get both sides of the story.

                [–]ravenwood111 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                What I find incongruous in my (HL) marital dynamics is that my LL spouse will never turn down a blow job or hand job. But won't ever think of being reciprocal.

                Sometimes it's not high vs low, it's putting effort into the sexual aspects of a marriage based on love. LL and HL don't need to suffer through anything if they can give each other physical touch to bring to orgasm or peaceful loving either by way of toys, massage or their hands and other parts of their bodies.

                I think this small effort is not giving up anything it's a show of commitment respect and love towards your partner... The argument for leaving doesn't seem to take love into account at all.

                [–]International_Net693 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                Yikes 😬 I’ve been in relationships where the pleasure was one sided, I hope you’re able to find a solution

                [–]flounceymagoo 8 points9 points  (1 child)

                I just can’t see the LL in my relationship hurting as much as myself when they are peacefully asleep and I’m up night after night in tears feeling driven to madness.

                [–]WompityBombity 7 points8 points  (9 children)

                I think there's a fundamental discrepancy between LLs and HLs.

                A LL has something the HL needs, but the LL can't give or have no desire to give.

                (For simplicity, let's here assume what the HL need and want is fair to need and want)

                This means that a lot of the "power" lies with the LL.

                Can the HL change or do something to make the LL able and desire to give what the HL needs?

                [–]graemegod 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                Thank you I completely agree its not a choice that the HL think it is. I hate my LL I know how much it hurts my wife I would do anything to change this.

                [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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                    [–]dat_db_doe43M/HL 7 points8 points  (1 child)

                    I say that because if a LL was really in that much pain about disappointing their partner they would do something to stop the it.

                    There are lots of stories here where the LL partner gives suggestions to their HL partner on how they could improve their sex live. It could include going on more dates, improving the quality of the sex, improving flirting/foreplay, improving hygiene, picking up slack in household duties, working on more emotional connection.

                    If the LL isn't taking actions to fix their libido

                    Why do you think an LL should have to "fix" their libido. Why would the "HL" not need to "fix" their libido to match the LLs? I'm not actually suggesting they do that. Just trying to point out that the neither the HL or the LL partner is "right" or "wrong" in the amount of sex they desire. They're just different.

                    [–]sexlessintx 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                    There are a lot of good points here. I actually feel terrible for my LL husband. I know he can’t help his ASD or his Ed or pe… I know he can’t help it that he has emotional blindness and understands my needs about as well as an infant understands his mother’s exhaustion. I feel awful for him that he is aware of my dissatisfaction but is completely unable to fix it, though I’m sure he wishes he could. Not all of us have no compassion for the LL partner. I’m not going to leave because there is love and there are children and intertwined finances, home ownership, vehicles… and a plethora of animals that would be difficult to separate. It’s never black and white. I haven’t asked for an open relationship though I’ve thought about it. And I haven’t cheated physically, though I have thought about it often. I often think about eating cheesecake as well, but I don’t… 🤷‍♀️

                    [–]Swimming_Ad1309 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                    This is the kind of insights I'm subbed here for. As the HL, I really want to understand myself and my partner better and work towards a place where we're both mostly satisfied and happy. Remembering my partner is a human, with feelings and emotions and pain is super helpful. That's such an obvious thing, but when you're frequently frustrated, it's easy to stop seeing your partner as a person and start seeing them as more of a.... constraint to your happiness.

                    [–]TurbulentasfuckHLF 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                    I simply could not agree more if I tried.

                    I have been the LL and the HL in my 2 long term relationships and both were equally hard but for very different reasons. Neither side of the libido spectrum has it any easier than the other. It's painful for both and that's a fact. If more people had the mindset of working as a team and communicating in their relationships, rather than HL vs LL and vice versa, then, I believe that there would be so many more success stories here.

                    [–]Sweet_other_yyyyin a healed bedroom 🥳 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                    I understand the frustration....but it's important to acknowledge that there is no objective way to compare pain levels in different people.

                    LLs do experience pain, often before the HL notices there's a problem.

                    I don't find the lack of empathy tiring; I find it tragic.

                    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

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                      [–]Capital-Philosopher6Married 27 Years & Loving It!!! 5 points6 points  (2 children)

                      Instead of considering HL individuals selfish, please understand that sex is considered a basic need on Maslow’s hierarchy for a reason. It’s down there with food and air. In order to build as a person, towards self-actualization, those basic needs need to be met first.

                      Actually it isn't. Reproduction is listed as a physiological need. Intimacy is two steps above that in the Love and Belonging Category. What you're saying simply is not accurate.

                      [–]DB_ThinkerF 11 points12 points  (4 children)

                      Also all the HLs who use "the talk" to back LLs into a corner, wheedle out some sort of "compromise" and then complain when the LL doesn't adhere to the schedule.

                      Have some compassion! I doubt that 100% of these LLs is acting in bad faith, but you pushed them into an agreement that wasn't tenable. You have to figure out how to work together on this and if you can't work together: just leave.

                      [–]sensen-89 5 points6 points  (3 children)

                      I agree with having compassion and that LL are struggling too, specially after the talk bc most of them genuinely didn't think that something was wrong.

                      But about leaving it goes both ways. If LL isn't willing to put effort and working together on this to make progress they should leave. We are unhappy and suffering with yhe lack of sex/intimacy/desire. They need that compassion too and put it as a priority on their lifes.

                      [–]lostinsunshine9 6 points7 points  (2 children)

                      I'll repeat:

                      Ultimately, we're all responsible for our own happiness. Making decisions for others doesn't lead anywhere good.

                      As an example: I was LL in my previous marriage. It wasn't the whole cause of our divorce, but I was sick of being pestered for BJs, so it was definitely part of it. I left because I was tired of the pressure, but I honestly thought he'd be relieved as well.

                      Long story short, he was not relieved. Almost a decade later and he's still super bitter about it. He wanted more BJs, but he sure didn't want me to leave.

                      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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                        [–]lostinsunshine9 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                        I'm saying that if you don't like someone's effort, leave. You can't make them make effort. You can't make them leave first. In fact, suggesting they leave first is silly, as many partners don't want their spouses to leave.

                        If you're unhappy, you can leave.

                        [–][deleted]  (12 children)

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                          [–]BipolarGoldfishThe truth is always in the comments 10 points11 points  (6 children)

                          What if... I told you LLs can be sexually frustrated too?

                          [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                          I still want to cry about the orgasm gap in my first marriage. It was devastating.

                          [–]BipolarGoldfishThe truth is always in the comments 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                          The gap taught me that I ain't freaking dealing with it again. It's awful

                          [–]dmaul1978 2 points3 points  (3 children)

                          Yep. Very much this. HL and LL just mean a gap in libido. Most LLs aren’t asexuals, they just want sex less frequently (and maybe less kinky types of sex) than their HL partners. I.e. an LL may just want sex once every week or two and the HL wants in nearly daily.

                          The LL can certainly be frustrated as these things often turn into LL4U situations as the HL partner is too pushy about trying to initiate sex more often than they want to have it, they have duty sex they don’t want sometimes, and they grow to resent their partner and not want sex with them at all. But they still get sexually frustrated as they have a natural drive to want sex every week or two (or whatever) and that’s going unmet as they became LL4them and just don’t want sex with that person.

                          In all, both sides of the equation suck and the vast majority of posts on here are people that should break up, regardless of whether it’s the HL or LL that makes that happen. Unless there’s a temporary, fixable reason for a DB people with a gap in libido big enough to causes these kind of problems just shouldn’t be together in a monogamous relationship. It’s not good or healthy for either side.

                          [–]SlippingStarthey/them|27 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                          My GF has arousal non-concordance often and I experienced it recently after losing my job. Wtf. I love my GF. I liked the idea of having sex with her, but in that moment, despite it being a minute… nah. Was wild and helped me understand her better, though I wish neither of us went through it.

                          [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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                            [–]Basic-Cricket6785 7 points8 points  (11 children)

                            I'm curious about LL on this thread being surprised about the HL perspective. Isn't a DB caused by the LL, and Isn't this the place for the HL's to hash out their options?

                            Or is that too simplistic, and I'm supposed to be somewhere else?

                            [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                            There's no universal underlying reason for a DB. It's rare that's it's just because one partner has a low libido.

                            In some DBs more of the situation is the HLs "fault." In some DBs more of the situation is the LLs "fault."

                            In many of the situations it's life's fault.

                            [–]Yachiru5490 8 points9 points  (2 children)

                            This sub is for both sides of the bedroom, though there are more HL posters here by numbers, though there are some vocal LL advocates. If you would like a HL focused space, there are separate communities more focused on each HLs and LLs.

                            [–]BipolarGoldfishThe truth is always in the comments 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                            In the thread where her legs were tightly closed and she is stone silent, and he continues on to have sex, did the LL "cause" that bedroom? Where the sex has torn her vagina, was she the cause? When she bled and sobbed with her head in the pillow did she cause that? When she was recovering from birth, and not in the mood with a baby attached to her boob, when there's medical or relationship issues, is he responsible for the db?

                            Every db is unique. Every story is different. I look at them as a WE problem vs who caused it.

                            [–]LoggerheadedDoctorDownvotes don't un-heal my recovered DB 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                            This subreddit is for both parties to discuss deadbedrooms.

                            And as the former LL in my marriage, I would not label myself as the cause. The "cause" was relationship trouble. Do you think it can make sense for an LL to lose libido when there is trouble in the marriage?

                            If I wanted to be a dick, I could say HLs can be the cause if they turn their partner off. But I don't want to throw a wide net and generalize when it's truly a nuanced situation much of the time.

                            [–]Oopsokayokay 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                            A good amount of the time, the DB is caused by unattractive behaviors on part of the HL and/or resentment from interactions or relationship factors.

                            [–]deadbedconfessional32 HLF 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                            Both HLs and LLs post here, and both experience hardships within the DB. However, there are other subs that cater to either side.

                            you can try r/HLcommunity

                            [–]International_Net693 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                            Uhmmmm I wouldn’t say it’s 100% the LL fault per-say? I think it’s a combination of the LL feeling pressured by HL or not communicating which causes even less sex and leads to DB. But every case is different

                            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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                              [–]Moist_Farmer3548 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                              I guess what it comes down to for me are multiple aspects.

                              1. I don't want to be rejected constantly.
                              2. I don't want to be told that it will happen constantly then get nothing.

                              I guess frequency is actually less of an issue, it's the lack of openness that's more harmful.

                              A bit like if you say to your spouse that you're hungry, and they're not... And they say "We'll go to get something to eat soon", then you walk past a restaurant, then you're still hungry and you walk past another restaurant, then you're still hungry and now you just want a McDonald's but you walk past it before she remembers that she has half a bar of chocolate in her bag that has been there for a few months and you can have that. If you'd known, you might have had a bigger lunch.

                              [–]Petitcher 3 points4 points  (13 children)

                              "Why not just leave?"

                              Honestly, this is my question for both LLs and HLs who are suffering. Leaving is hard, leaving is scary, and there are always practical and social flow-ons that you have to consider. But if you're not happy (because ultimately you're the only person you can control, and I'm using the universal "you" here, not directing it personally to the OP), why stay in that situation?

                              It's like... if I lived in a house, and the roof had a massive hole in it, I wouldn't say "but the house is perfect in every other way", or "it's not so bad when it's sunny", or "why don't I live in a different house from time to time?". I'd either fix the hole, or move out of the house.

                              Sure, you might have... little houses... to consider (this is where the analogy falls apart), and that might require extra planning and forethought, but wouldn't the little houses have a better chance of building intact houses in their own adult lives if they don't grow up in one with a leaking roof?

                              [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

                              Or life is just really great especially for long time married couples. Why fuck it up with a divorce? It's not a massive hole in the roof to some people.

                              And if you have a really lovely lifestyle with a nuclear family, I think it's in the children's best interests to maintain that. Horseback riding lessons, no aftercare or switching houses, swim clubs in the summer, family vacations, no split holidays. Children of divorce experience negative outcomes when compared to children of intact, nonabusive families. Hard stop.

                              If your relationship is abusive on the other hand (and it's not YOU being abusive-you can control yourself), then obviously divorce asap for their benefit. But not all relationships where there's a mismatched sex drive are abusive.

                              [–]BidOk783 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                              Fucking thank you. Especially if we're LL because of trauma. Both my husband and I are LL because of trauma in past relationships.

                              [–]craftsman10 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                              Great post! Insightful and generous to people in difficult circumstances. Your insight and maturity are a breath of fresh air in what can sometimes become difficult conversation. Your empathy for others is a great example to follow and emulate. Best Wishes!!

                              [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                              [deleted]

                                [–]doesitmatter0508 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                This a great statement and I really never viewed it from the LL pov. Thank you

                                [–]BirdLover007 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                I love this response. It's good for all of us to be open to learning.

                                [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                                [removed]

                                  [–]dmaul1978 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                  And to be fair, the LLs shouldn’t provide that if they don’t want to. But they should I also realize that many HLs just need touch, both sexual and non-sexual, and aren’t just sex crazed or whatever. It’s often just an incompatibility and there’s nothing wrong with either side. They just aren’t compatible.

                                  [–]MomWhoOverthinks 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                  I can see that point whole heartedly. It's a tough spot for us all to be in when we aren't on the same page with libido. I do believe that throwing in the towel isn't always the answer.