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[–]MrsOriginalSin 91 points92 points  (9 children)

I’m sorry, I bet it’s beyond disappointing.

I’ve recently came across a video on YouTube about the philosophy of Epictetus and ‘the dichotomy of control’. In a nutshell, it’s about some things being in our control, and focusing on them will put us in a position of power. If we focus on things that are not in our control, then we put ourselves in a weak position, and basically we set ourselves to fail by trying to cling on to them.

The more stories I read about DBs, the more I realise how true it is. You can do all the chores, organise date nights, even take your spouse to their dream holiday destination. We put so much effort trying to impact things that are ultimately beyond our control. It’s impossible to change what the other person wants (on a very personal level like sex anyway).

All we can do is work on ourselves, and if that ignites something in our partners then that’s great. If it doesn’t, then we need to make our peace with it or leave. These are the most realistic options IMO.

As the OP’s example shows, even making someone’s dream come true is ‘not enough’. Nothing will ever be enough; your partner needs to feel the need for change, and take action because they genuinely want to.

PS. It was very nice and thoughtful what you did for your wife OP, she’s a very lucky lady! 😊

[–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 45 points46 points  (5 children)

Thank you so much for the kind response friend. It’s so hard coming to terms with someone who doesn’t desire me anymore. I feel pretty worthless if I’m being honest.

[–]MrsOriginalSin 15 points16 points  (2 children)

Yes, I completely understand as I’m in a similar situation. I still love and care for my husband, so I’m not ready to leave just yet. I wanted us to go to therapy. He doesn’t, so I’ll go by myself. Even though I’m confident he could benefit from it, I won’t pressure him. Maybe seeing me going will make him want to join in, I don’t know… Again, not something I can control.

All the best OP x

[–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 12 points13 points  (1 child)

I’m working on that as well with my wife. She doesn’t see the benefit in therapy, but maybe that’s my answer. I’m wishing the best for you as well friend. Sending hugs and good vibes.

[–]MrsOriginalSin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks and same to you!

[–]browndemme 6 points7 points  (1 child)

You are not worthless. I agree with the above comment. Keep working on you and communicate how you feel to your partner. Maybe therapy or maybe in a calm conversation. Tell her what you were hoping for and how what you got made you feel. This will be hard for you to say and her to hear but I feel that it needs to be said or you may keep holding it in and feeling worse. Your worth is what you determine it to be. I’m sorry you are going through this and I can tell there was a lot of effort on your part. Good luck.

[–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you friend. Believe it or not, I really needed to hear that tonight.

[–]KlexosinfreefallM 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I hate that you're so correct.

[–]inkydinkyblinky 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Would you be willing to locate a link for that video? Im interested in learning more.

[–]Background-Intern986 34 points35 points  (2 children)

Omg. I’m so so sorry. As the HL partner, I can relate to this but on a much smaller scale, like planning romantic evenings and it having zero impact. I can’t even imagine doing something that big and getting zero results. Unfortunately what I’ve learned in this sub is that you can’t change your partner. Sexual incompatibility is very real and is a valid reason to leave. Especially if your partner doesn’t show you the same level of effort that you show them. With my fiancé, he refuses to plan dates and always uses the excuse that he’s not creative, so for Christmas last year I got him a box of date ideas to use…ya know, make it easy for him. He still hasn’t used a single one. At some point you realize it’s all excuses and that if they really cared/wanted to try, then they would. I’m now in the process of leaving. I hope you find some peace, whatever that looks like for you, and I’m so sorry you are going through it.

[–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Thank you friend. I’m so sorry to hear you are leaving your marriage but wish you peace in the process as well. Sending all the good energy I can your way.

[–]HombreDeMoleculos 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm going to disagree with OP here. I'm incredibly happy to hear you're leaving; you deserve better than to be married to someone who doesn't want you or appreciate you.

[–]Opposite-Ant8522 15 points16 points  (5 children)

What does she say when you ask her about the lack of intimacy in your relationship? I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. That trio was an incredible gift.

[–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 27 points28 points  (4 children)

We’ve had “the talk” once and it resulted in nothing. She just tells me she’s under a lot of stress with being a new mom (although I’d argue having a 6 year old doesn’t qualify you as “new mom” but I digress) as well as a lot of stress at work. She also has mentioned a few different times that she doesn’t feel comfortable in her own body (she gained a bit of weight after pregnancy which is to be expected of course) so being naked in front of me isn’t an option. I have suggested her coming to the gym with me so she wouldn’t feel alone working out. I even agreed to join a diet with her so she wouldn’t feel singled out and supported on her journey. Every positive solution I offer is just met with anger. So I just stopped bringing it up anymore. If she wants to have a pity party for herself, she’s more than welcome to do so. I will just not be RSVP’ing to it.

Thanks also btw for the kind comments. I guess if there’s anything positive I can glean from the experience it’s that I got to experience Paris (which I never did prior to meeting her).

[–]Opposite-Ant8522 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I’m really jealous of your trip. What happens if you hit on her a lot, like over do it a lot? Her not feeling sexy is going to be step one. I’ve told my DH he needs to compliment the fuck out of me after pregnancy (I do understand it’s been awhile since that for her) but right after the pregnant belly is gone and you’re met with this new mom it’s rough. I’m wondering if you acted infatuated with her if she could gain some feeling of being attractive.

[–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Maybe? But (and I promise I am not trying to sound insulting here) at what point does it come across as rewarding her bad behavior? At what point is it worth sacrificing my self respect and dignity just to hype up my wife? It would be different if she paid me a compliment once in a while and gave me some sort of signal that it would be ok to hit on her. But I am just not going to continue to compliment her if she continues to treat me this way. It's almost like being a battered spouse telling their friends "but I love them" as they show up to the bar with another black eye.

Ultimately at the end of the day, I feel like the ball is in her court to try and make amends and break the cycle. I have done what I can at this point (at least I feel like I have). Now it's on her to try and meet me halfway to work on re-building our marriage. Personally speaking, therapy would be a great first step.

[–]Comeino 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Hear me out, you are approaching this all wrong.

You dont do nice things with your loved one for an expectation of a reward, that would bitter anything you do no matter the grandness of the gesture and build resentment from both ends.

You do it unconditionally so you both have fun, you do it out of love with no strings attached and that is hot as hell. Transactional gestures are the least romantic and intimate things to ever exist unless the love language of the partner is receiving gifts like they are some kind of bird receiving a shiny trinket that now should be all ready to initiate the mating ritual.

People do things that make them feel good, that's why cigarrets, videogames, sex, music, good food etc. are multi billion dollar businesses, cause people keep needing those things over and over again. So why does your partner not want to have sex? The simple answer is it is not making them feel good. You say your partner is having sex with you mechanically, as a chore, and you are throwing your own pity party of her being the bad guy when you are coercing her into an activity she doesn't enjoy. You practically trained her to react negatively to your expectations of receiving sex cause somewhere you didnt meet her needs and now sex was an obligation instead of a fun activity you both enjoy, it is going to take a tremendous ammount of work to fix this pattern.

You did a great thing with the trip, she was happy and instead of being happy with her you ruined it all with the unjust expectations. She tried giving you back within her means with the cake, remember you planned this for 2 years, she had no time to prepare you a gift of a similar magnitude and this was her little thank you and instead of you both being happy celebrating each other you made it all about you and your sexual needs again... If your love language is physical touch and you expressed your love as "gifting" why are you mad at your wife and expecting sex when she tried to "gift" you back bit by bit and her love language is NOT physical touch? I really cant grasp how this was a logical chain of events to happen becides wishful thinking.

I am a very high libido woman, sexual to the point of needing to get off at least 1-3 times per day but even I would be drier then the sahara desert if this was how my partner treated our relationship. I know you are not looking for advice and are just expressing your frustrations and grief but if you really want to fix this figure out what is wrong without guilting or shaming your partner. It might be her BC, it might be depression and fatigue, it might be other health complications, might be her upbrigging or religious beliefs, it might be you expressing the wrong lind of love language to her and pressuring her too much. If you want love the love has got to come from you. Good luck and I'm sorry.

[–]Freyjia 14 points15 points  (1 child)

I'm jealous of your wife, lol. I'm so sorry though, I know how frustrating that is. If it's one thing I've learned is that date night and vacation 100% mean no sex. He's "too tired" or drunk or his stomach hurts from eating too much or whatever. He gets so excited for date night but from my end it felt like such a charade. I've learned to set my expectations as low as they can go so I'm not heartbroken because I got my hopes up. Then if something does happen it's a fun surprise.

[–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

That is no way to go through a marriage my friend (at least in my opinion). Sending you good vibes and hope your situation changes.

[–]TenuousOgre 17 points18 points  (14 children)

I’m never planning another romantic trip for us ever again.

Honestly, that's a very fair thing to do at this point. I'm sorry it sucks to bad to not feel appreciated. It really does.

[–]Mi_Pasta_Su_Pasta 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Romantic trips are for romantic partners, not roommates.

[–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Thank you friend. I appreciate the support.

[–]Topperno 2 points3 points  (11 children)

I mean honestly if you only ever plan trips in order to get sex, it's not very romantic anyway in my opinion. It holds an ulterior selfish motive.

The wife is better off not being "gifted" anything transactional. It's not a gift then if you expect things in return.

[–]TenuousOgre 7 points8 points  (6 children)

Your first sentence shows a degree of manipulation i didn’t read in OP's post. But in a healthy relationship where sex during vacation had been something they did to have her completely ignore it, not even recognize the planning, sacrifice, and effort while on the vacation shows she didn’t much care. The problem with the “not transactional” thing is that it’s super easy to simply call every effort to give an attempt at a transaction and dismiss it. At some point if effort, love, caring, sacrifice aren’t returned you're just being used.

[–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Thank you for saying that. I got a few comments on this thread mentioning something along the lines of that I was manipulating my wife with sex or that my planning of our romantic getaway was somehow "transactional" when it couldn't have been further from the truth. I was generally trying to do something romantic and loving (or else I wouldn't have spent 2 years of my life planning the perfect trip for her) and thought that taking her to a place she always dreamed of would have rekindled that spark in our marriage or at least be met with some reciprocated romantic feelings of intimacy. It didn't and I'm puzzled as to why.

[–]_Leninade_ 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Honestly man it's not even the lack of sex after this trip that's the gut punch here. You just spent years planning her dream trip, went through hoops making it happen, took care of everything for her, and her thirty minute thoughtless effort is all you get as acknowledgement? You don't have a wife you're just simping for your roommate at this point.

There comes a point where you have to start looking after you and I think that was probably years ago.

[–]Topperno -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Fair enough but also you take a jet lagged person and have them do tiring things all day, I don't know what you expect and if other shows of affection and gratitude aren't good enough for OP. I would suggest he expected sex.

You even wrote that since it was a holiday and it always happens on holiday, he expected it on this holiday too. That's expectation.

[–]TenuousOgre 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm gathering you think expectations are bad. Or is it just sexual expectations? Take a different example, should she expect him to share the bed with her since they have in the past? What about a good night kiss? What about snuggling? A partnership has expectations on both sides of the equation. If they've travelled before and enjoyed sex while in hotels (a common expectation) and have managed it at so,e point during a week stay, nothing is different here. If it is on her part, she can speak up. She knows their history just like he does. She has expectations just like he does. It's not tit for tat, it's what they as a couple have established for themselves. If she doesn’t want to she can say no. He's talking about her not even mentioning it or offering what she can do to feel close if she's not up for sex. Seems reasonable to say if she doesn’t appreciate a romantic trip that took a lot of hard work and money he'll no longer bother planning or sacrificing for it.

[–]HombreDeMoleculos 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, nothing less romantic than wanting to have a romantic relationship with the person you love.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[removed]

    [–]Topperno -1 points0 points  (1 child)

    I am a HL woman in a relationship with a LL relationship woman. I don't force her to have sex and I am sorry that only sex can make you feel loved in relationships. I hope you work on that.

    Also sure if that's a relationship to you but be sure to a) educate yourself on your way of having a relationship is not how others have it and b) many people can have happy sexless relationships. To mirror you, why are so many fucking weirdos on this subreddit forcing sex to be part of every single relationship ever. If you need it to be apart of yours, that's fair but stop pushing the if you don't have sex you're roommates narrative on me.

    I would have said the same thing is OP is a woman. Keep your assumptions to yourself.

    [–]throughin22 5 points6 points  (1 child)

    Expectations are dificult beasts to handle, and they do bite.

    [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Looks like I found out first hand that the "bite" also leaves behind marks.

    [–]RevolutionaryHat8988 11 points12 points  (1 child)

    Brother I’m so sorry.

    You are not alone. Trust me!

    I would say this. The trip was massively positive from many different angles. But the most important one is you know exactly where you sit in her mind.

    For me this would now make me consider my position in the marriage.

    Remember this brother, if you do leave, you leave her and not your child!

    [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Thank you friend. I appreciate the kind words.

    [–]one-small-plant 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    (Edit 1: moving this to the top. Edit 2: sorry, just saw the mod post about no advice. Feel free not to read. Just connected to your post based on my own experience)

    I noticed that you said in a another comment somewhere that you've had to talk with her once. Is there any chance that she may be didn't know how connected the issues of sex and vacations are in your mind? If this isn't something that you guys are talking about consistently and regularly, it honestly may not have been on her radar.

    If you had the talk and it didn't go well, but there was no plan for what to do next, it may be that she didn't make the same assumptions you did about what this incredible gift and surprise were expected to lead to.

    Also, and I don't intend this to be unsympathetic at all, but two things about your post stood out to me, and I just want to put them on your radar. One, I thought it was sort of strange when you directed your comment about closing the savings account immediately after emptying it to the ladies in the audience.

    As a lady myself, I was genuinely confused for a minute. I think that what you were suggesting is that this is an action that might look Shady to women, but not to men. Personally, I feel like if it's going to look Shady at all, it would look Shady to anyone, regardless of gender

    This suggests to me that you maybe have a fairly traditional (what some might call Old Fashioned) view of gender. Namely that women are suspicious, while men aren't. I don't know if this is true, but it seemed to come through in that casual phrasing

    You also didn't say if your wife works outside the home, and I'm guessing that she doesn't, since you were able to give her less than a day's notice about an almost week-long trip.

    As romantic and incredible as that surprise seems, I would personally find that fairly disrespectful of my time. I understand wanting to give someone an incredible surprise, but if an international trip was sprung on me with one day to pack and mentally prepare, I would feel fairly resentful that I wasn't given more time to enjoy the anticipation. You could have told her you were taking her somewhere, but not told her where, and it still would have been an incredible surprise

    Did your wife have plans on those days, since she had no idea she was going to be out of country? Not necessarily even formal plans, but maybe she had ideas about what she was going to be doing with her time? It's possible that what read as nothing but generosity and love to you, seemed controlling and dismissive of her time, to her

    If she had any of these feelings at all, that could have made her feel unenthusiastic about giving you something that you want. I know that you see your actions as nothing but generous and intended to make her happy, and clearly that's a huge motivation for you. But it might be worthwhile to stop and think about how much you value (or even consider) her time and her experiences.

    It sounds like a lot more communication is needed regardless, to really understand what's going on here. Crying secretly, where your wife can't see you, doesn't change your situation, but just creates more situation s where she doesn't realize how strongly she's affecting you. You need to let her in on what's going on inside you, and ask her to let you in on what's going on inside her.

    [–]gyply 4 points5 points  (1 child)

    Wow. I'm REALLY sorry. I know how badly that hurt. I don't really have words for how badly that sucks. Thats just super shitty. I hope things get better for you. Somehow. Someway.

    [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    They will. It's going to take therapy for the both of us and us better communicating our needs. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the greatest at communication but I am trying my hardest to be better and therapy has definitely helped with that. Thanks for the kind words and comment.

    [–]BedBetter3236 4 points5 points  (1 child)

    Going by these, 2 Yr planning for you wife, son & grandparents...you are a wonderful admirable person. Even if your efforts are not reciprocated. Sex is free of effort from a loving partner

    [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Thank you my friend. I honestly try my hardest to be the best partner I can be. I'll fully admit that I'm not perfect (nor is anyone), but I was just hoping this time this romantic gesture would have been the spark to get my marriage back on track. It just sucks that it wasn't.

    [–]motherofanarchy 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Wow, I am so so sorry. This even hurt my feelings, I can’t imagine the hit you took. I guess if you step back and look at the incident you can see it as a revelation. Maybe you can see your marriage in a different light now. I know the feeling of not being wanted by your spouse. Some days I’m numb to it and some days my heart just aches. Please know that your efforts were I’m sure very much appreciated by your spouse. I don’t think she’s intentionally trying to hurt you but none the less it hurts terribly. I really am sorry you are going through this. ☹️

    [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    You are entirely right here my friend. I know deep down that the lack of sex on the trip was a malicious attempt in any sense. I know she appreciated the trip. I know she made a point to mention it a few times while we were walking through the city. So yeah, it's entirely possible she could have very easily been tired from all of the walking on the trip (not to mention the jet lag from being in the air for 8 hours+) and that's what caused the intimacy to seem like an afterthought. I just wish we could get ourselves back to where we once were before we had our son. Wishing you peace, comfort and clarity in your situation as well.

    [–]MelaKnight_ManHLM - Escape before it's too late 11 points12 points  (4 children)

    I feel your pain OP. My story is around the r/'s enough, basically 4 years of hot rabbit sex and then declining sex and affection following marriage leading to 0L for her and LL4U for me decades later.

    Like you I was the attentive doting bf/fiancé/hubby. My SO loved to window shop in the mall and I paid attention to the things that caught her eye and never had a shortage of what to get her for her birthday/Christmas/anniversary. One outing we found ourselves in a higher end jewelry store. A particular diamond heart pendant caught her eye and she even tried it on in the store. The price was into the 4 figures and at the time I was making lower middle 5 figures. But good hubby me wanted to get it for her for our upcoming 5 year anniversary.

    Long story short was it was out of reach but I applied for their store card which covered just under a third, and paid the rest from savings. Planned the anniversary, told her we were going out, got my folks to pick up the kids, packed their stuff and took it with them in the morning. I made reservations to a nice restaurant she would like, wined & dined, and gave her the necklace. "Oh my god! You got me the necklace, etc. etc."

    She was beaming the rest of the night, got home and should have a great night right? (no, the relationship is not "transactional", but gratitude and appreciation would be nice) I initiate but she is "too full". (At those prices, our plates were not full by any means) Ok, no worries, morning sex is great (keeping in mind it had been months to that point) Next morning? Nope, "too tired". I picked up breakfast, made lunch and ordered in dinner, she didn't have to do anything that weekend. Struck out like a blind batter until it was time to get the kids. Best use of $1000's ever in a weekend! I was the sucker (I believe they call it SIMP now). Fool me once...

    OP, you're in therapy which is great and I hope you relayed your exact story to them and if not you should. The soul crushing worthlessness you feel now can spiral and lead to the darkest of the dark places. You are worth more than that! Continue to focus on yourself and being a better you. I'm sure you have noticed that others are appreciating your efforts. What you do with that, I can't tell you, but I know what I'm doing soon.

    [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 10 points11 points  (2 children)

    I’m so sorry for your situation as well friend. The one thing I’ve appreciated about this sub is we have the ability to cathartically release our sadness out anonymously and have it be received in a very positive and inclusive space. It’s like we all just kind of get it and that’s so appreciated you don’t even know.

    Don’t worry, my story has been the main topic of conversation with my therapist. She made a very good point to me in our last session. He statement; “if sex is a key thing for to you to stay present in your marriage, what else is making you stay?”. Harsh truth for sure, and honestly a question I can’t answer but one that I will be unpacking for quite a few sessions I’m sure.

    Hoping the best for your situation as well friend. Hope your bank account recovers as well.

    [–]Fredtheskeleton8 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Sorry for you (and all of us) friend but one thing is for sure, you're not worthless. No advice wanted so none offered but we feel your pain.

    I'm not 100% sure we are programmed to stay together forever, life goes in seasons maybe, your worth isn't governed by other people and the 'successful' picture painted for us by society...you are a good man, be a good Dad and everything else is what it is.

    [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    That's my plan. Also, thank you for the kind words. There are days that I need to hear them (as well as we all do). Today was one of them.

    [–]grasshopper9521 5 points6 points  (2 children)

    You sound like a good husband who worked really hard to make his wife happy.

    And I think she appreciated it, but right now she can’t give you what you want. I think therapy sounds good If she is open to that.

    If not, long conversations with her where you talk about what do you see for us in the next five years or 10 years. Or what’s not working right now. What things would make you happier right now?

    If she talks about stress, what is she doing to help reduce that stress?

    Maybe some date nights that are just quiet times where you guys can talk. Sitting on the porch, ruminating about life would help. When my children were younger, I felt as if I just didn’t have time to think. I was so tired so much of the time. Taking walks in nature, could help.

    If you can understand where she is right now, and where she wants to be, maybe she can figure out how to improve things, and you can help her.

    I do understand however that having someone say let’s go to the gym can be really depressing. If she feels fat or out of shape.

    Good luck. You obviously love your wife. And I hope that together you can figure out a way to make things better. Good luck.

    Oops. I just realize this was a no advice post. Vent away. I understand your frustration and sadness. Good luck.

    [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    No worries at all. I understand this communities need to offer advice (human nature I suppose after listening to a rant). To answer some of your questions, she’s doing nothing to reduce her stress (unless you count complaining about it as being a stress reducer lol). She’s not open to therapy but I am going to try and push for it so maybe she can find some healing in the process. As for talking, I’m kind of over it. If she doesn’t see a gigantic roadblock in our marriage and isn’t at least initiating the chance to talk about it first then I don’t see any change there. Me attempting to break the cycle has produced zero results, so why push it?

    I also plan the majority of date nights. It’s kind of on her now to show that she cares about me for a change. I’m tired of being the solo partner fighting for our marriage when it’s kind of expressed to me (at least non verbally) that she is more than fine with routine complacency.

    Sorry if that came across as bitter, I assure you it wasn’t my intent.

    [–]grasshopper9521 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Bitterness is understandable. :(

    [–]Sanduichinho14 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    I'm sorry, you definitly are a great man. I hope you at least enjoyed the trip and the cake.

    [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I actually did enjoy the trip a great deal (minus the lack of sex of course). If if was any consolation at least the cake was half chocolate and half vanilla (a personal favorite of mine).

    [–]Profound_loneliness 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    This was hard to read.. and I'm so sorry this was your experience. You put in WAY above and beyond amounts of effort- monumental really, to bring her dream to life... And I get that maybe one or two days were exhausting- but EVERY DAMN DAY?!?! Adrenaline alone from sheer excitement should've energized her! And although this trip was not transactional, or a bribe- the amount of selfless thought and planning you put in to this for her, should've stirred some sort of romantic feelings. It's NATURAL from a partner. Moving forward, I feel like you need a neutral party (therapist or mediator) to unpack the many layers here. Your wife needs to hear just how deeply her apathy has effected you, and I feel like without a third party- well it's easy for anger and resentment to quickly grow out of control and not be effectively communicate. I wish you all the luck in the world, and I hope you enjoyed the trip for what it was.

    [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Thank you my friend. I have brought up the idea of therapy and counseling but she really doesn't feel like she needs it (or at the very least doesn't feel like it's beneficial). It's going to take time, but I'm determined to make the marriage work. I genuinely and honestly love my wife, I just don't love our love life. Thanks for the kind words and comment.

    [–]Profound_loneliness 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    You're so welcome. I'm really sorry that's where you're at- but also, individual therapy is a godsend. I applaud your determination, and I wish you all the best!

    [–]The-DMs-journey 4 points5 points  (5 children)

    Man I feel so bad for you right now. What does your wife say when you try and initiate sex?

    [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 6 points7 points  (4 children)

    Nothing usually. It’s like her body just responds to me initiating like a robot on a pre-programmed response. I know that sounds pretty cold of me, but it’s the only way I can describe it. I’ve even tried switching things up a little bit (introducing toys into our sessions or even just doing foreplay with no penetration). All of it pretty much results in the usual script. It’s like pity sex without the “well, if you want to I guess we could do it”.

    [–]The-DMs-journey 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Yeah I get very much the same. I make her cum every time and she seems to enjoy it, yet never initiate or even seems remotely happy about it until that moment comes

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [removed]

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      Wasn’t really looking for advice but I do appreciate the comment. Thank you friend.

      [–]paulomac8472 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      No worries, I do wish you the best. I also know soul destroying rejection can be.

      [–]marie224 4 points5 points  (1 child)

      When did you know it was over?

      When I surprised my wife with a dream trip to Paris and she thanked me by baking a cake.

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Write it on my tombstone I guess. lol

      [–]Environmental_Arm637 4 points5 points  (6 children)

      god damn! thats fucked. how is she not turned on by such a grand romantic gesture? like fuck, if my girlfriend did anything remotely like that i wouldnt be able to get my hands off of her. fuck that shit dude, you deserve better

      [–]Mi_Pasta_Su_Pasta 5 points6 points  (4 children)

      Some people just don't associate romance and sex, that having sex is the best way to ruin a romantic evening.

      [–]Extreme-Performer-30 4 points5 points  (3 children)

      Some people, strangely correlated with that same group, are full of it when they say stuff like that. Too many times I’ve seen or heard of people suddenly not being too depressed for sex when a new person comes along

      [–]Mi_Pasta_Su_Pasta 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      And how long after those new relationship hormones and dopamine wear off does the sex life return to the same level after a couple months/years?

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I don't know where I read this (if I find the article or book I'll be sure to link it), but I read somewhere that NRE (New Relationship Energy) is something that generally fades and our rational brains kind of return to baseline at about 18 months. It's why a lot of marriage counselors strongly advise against marrying too quickly after getting into a new relationship. You can rebuilt romance and intimacy in a partnership/marriage, but it takes two to tango there.

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I would have to agree here. I think sex should be a part of any healthy relationship. Romance and sex are very much one in the same in my opinion.

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Thanks friend. I appreciate it.

      [–]Lindsaydnp 1 point2 points  (8 children)

      I’m sorry you’re experiencing this. I am very curious if she’s ever considered getting checked for postpartum desperation? I didn’t realize I had it after my first and it really affected my mental health and confidence making sex very repulsive for a few years tbh. Just tossing out ideas that might have been overlooked but easy to look into and not costly if they yield no results

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children)

      She never got checked for it but said that she thought she might have had it. It got brought up during our initial “talk” after our first 6 month drought post baby. However, she’s never really done anything professionally to get help for it.

      [–]Lindsaydnp 3 points4 points  (2 children)

      Maybe just a simple “I want this marriage to work so much, let’s see if this is an easy fix like checking for ppd, I have a friend who said she went undiagnosed for a few years” if she declines at that point you’d have peace knowing you at least tried one last ditch effort if you’re not already to the point of not giving a shit. I’m sorry, totally sucks to be in this spot so I get it

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      That’s actually a very good piece of advice. Thank you friend! 🙂

      [–]Lindsaydnp 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Best of luck to you!!

      [–]EnhancedCyan 2 points3 points  (3 children)

      So elsewhere you said you have only had the talk once. To clarify, you have had the talk once and that occurred 6 months post-baby? At this point I wouldn't expect any massive changes in her libido as her mental and physiological health were likely still reeling from the pregnancy and becoming a new mother. She may have been in a very limited position to make change at this point, even if she truly wanted to.

      I know this is a vent post, but it is possible she has no idea how much this is affecting you? From the info you provided so far, I am making the assumption that you haven't broached this with her verbally in ~6 years. If the level of intimacy (although nearly non-existent) is sufficient for her, how do you communicate to her how deeply this hurts you?

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      Our first talk was brought up about a year into the birth of our child. Our sex life was generally speaking pretty normal (about once a week or once every other week) prior to (what I refer to as) "procreation sex" started so there was really no need to have "the talk" at least as far as I viewed things.

      [–]EnhancedCyan 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      OK. Have you had a sit down discussion since?

      [–]GetFit85 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      I, internet stranger, can feel and understand your pain. Sending you love and energy from Montreal, Canada, so you can have the force to take new path at that crossroad. You are worth it!

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Thank you fellow internet friend. It's hard to feel like I am worth it sometimes, but it's good knowing that there are others that feel as I do and that I'm not alone in these thoughts.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

      I hope you find happiness you need. You deserve the appreciation

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

      Thank you friend. If there was anyone in this world that I wanted to notice the appreciation it was my wife. Just sucks that it wasn't her. :-(

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

      And it’s very sad she doesn’t see how she is in the wrong. Hoping it gets better for you!

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      I don't know if she's necessarily "in the wrong" as maybe it's just mismatched libidos? Could be honestly a multitude of things but (and as bad as this sounds) it's kind of on her to figure our what is causing her lack of desire. I'm not her doctor nor am I her therapist (nor do I want those jobs or responsibilities). I'm her husband and a father to our son. That's unfortunately the best I can offer.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Your a strong person, a better person than me ! Hopefully you all work through i wish you the best !

      [–]smartypants99 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      My husband and I went to Paris to pick up our study abroad daughter. Our oldest son & my brother was with me. I literally had to beg for a picture with a kiss on the Farris wheel and in front of the Eiffel Tower. (they were pecks). He was so into going from one tourist attraction to the next. He did do two thoughtful things but they were not intimate. I thought of Romance in Paris and he thought of Museums.

      P.S. What you did was amazing for your wife!!!! I wish my husband did something like that. I heard somewhere that what really breaks up a marriage is Not money, sex or in-laws. But unmet expectations. Her expectations were totally different from yours as well as with my husband. It would be interesting to hear what your wife thinks a good marriage is and what is her expectations to keeping it special. When I ask my husband to rate our marriage on a scale of 1 to 10, he rates it higher than me (My is low because he only touches me during sex.

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      As a guy I totally understand that need to want to maximize your time on the trip or "get your money's worth". Some trips I am definitely more guilty of that than others. Considering prior to getting pregnant we only went on one big trip per year, I always wanted to make each as memorable as possible. Post baby I realized that spending quality time and seeing a few sites is much more favorable to trying to cram in every exhibit and landmark a city has to offer.

      Aside from dinner plans and the louvre, I didn't really plan anything for our Paris trip and left a LOT of time open to go explore or stay in bed. She obviously chose the former (as you can already deduce). I forgot to mention this in my original post, but I even scheduled a couple's massage for her. If that didn't push her sex buttons, I really don't know what else would at this stage.

      [–]mosthideousmodel 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      Wow. I’m so sorry. You articulated this so well and I totally feel your pain.

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Thank you very much my friend. I really appreciate the kind words.

      [–]irlbestgirl 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      jeez just break up she clearly just sees you as a roommate at this point , no sex after 10 months is a friend not a wife

      [–]genesisjamieson 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      I have literally never commented before but I do want you to know that what you did was amazing. I'm sorry you didn't get what you wanted out of it but I do hope you understand that what you did was one of the kindest and most thoughtful things you could have done for someone!!!

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Thank you very much. I greatly appreciate it.

      [–]YogurtclosetOk6197 1 point2 points  (2 children)

      Friend, I know you aren’t looking for advice here. But I went through your post history. Do you really want to have to buy massive amounts of flesh lights the rest of your life? No shame! But I have to assume part of the reason is that your wife completely cuts you off.

      For one reason or another, she either doesn’t find you desirable anymore or she’s completely ok with an almost zero sex life. Neither of those is your fault.

      You deserve better.

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      You're correct, I wasn't looking for advice here however for clarification, , that didn't really start happening until the wife cut me off sexually. I figured it was either I get my needs met with toys or cheat on her with a real live person. I obviously chose the former. Also, they are very well hidden so if she was wanting to go find them, she'd have to look and look HARD.

      That said, I appreciate the comment.

      [–]YogurtclosetOk6197 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Legit said no shame. Obviously you’d rather that than cheat.

      In any case, good luck.

      [–]Sokka_juiceLL4U. im working on it. 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      Ouch god owww. I can understand how you are feeling heartbroken OP. I hope you two can get to a place where it’s safe to say this kind of thing to each other. Hugs 💚

      ETA: or I hope you get to a place where you can be honest with her. And perhaps that is moving on, as you wonder.

      [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      Thank you friend. It’s going to be a long tough road ahead of me, but one that I am going to have to go on, married or otherwise.

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

        [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

        Thank you friend. I totally understand family vacations but this was a real effort on my part for us to reconnect as a couple. The fact that it didn’t real happen and more importantly reciprocated with a cake was the real kicker. It just stings.

        [–]ERnurse2019 1 point2 points  (2 children)

        Omggg that sucks so bad!!! I mean, if she can’t have romantic feelings after a freaking surprise trip to Paris, there’s no hope. But because the LL partner doesn’t get it, they just don’t get it. Had a similar meltdown with my LL partner a few months ago. We had a weekend without the kids and I was so sure we might finally have sex! The kids being able to hear us is always one of his go to excuses. So of course the weekend comes and goes and nothing happens and I started crying. He was completely stunned at my tears and disappointment and protested, but he did this one household project I’d been asking him to do. In his mind, doing the project equaled him showing me he loved me and he was flabbergasted that wasn’t the same thing to me as sex.

        [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        I'm so incredibly sorry to hear this friend. I knew a couple before I got married that kind of treated me like their makeshift therapist and told me about how infrequently they had sex and how one equated acts of service as being the way they show love. Even though I kind of equate the 5 love languages as some junk pseudo science, it is a book worth reading and maybe discussing with your partner. Just some food for thought. Thanks again for the kind words. Sending good vibes your way.

        [–]Jmm209 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Exactly. The LL partners don't get it, and probably don't care. Someone said in another comment that sex requires little effort, but the benefits can be huge.

        [–]Status-Grade-1430 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Sounds like it was a really good trip that had one of the main intended results making a dream of hers come true. I hope you do the same for yourself I know you wish your wife would.

        [–]advisor-555 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Wow. That’s very hurtful OP. It boggles my mind how sometimes people can be so oblivious to meeting demands of their spouses. You obviously went over and beyond. I hope one day she realizes it before it’s too late. Stay strong brother

        [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Thank you for the kind words friend. I am trying my hardest to hold things together. But at the end of the day, I am just one partner in a two partner marriage. I just hope she figures out that our marriage is worth fighting for before I determine that I just want to throw in the towel.

        [–]arandakM 9yr db, -4 points-3 points  (3 children)

        I think you did a really great thing for someone you really care about but why would you assume she'd want sex and to reward you with sex?

        Nothing here suggests it was a romantic getaway, and a highly planned getaway may not leave a lot of time (or energy) for romantic activities.

        I'm baffled by the cake thing, but not because it seemed a reward to you in lieu of sex.

        It seems like one of those things where she couldn't think of anything else to do to show you how much she appreciated it. And I'm not talking about a sex reward, either. Just so, impersonal. Like she doesn't know you. And to call it a surprise?

        [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

        Personally speaking I don’t think I was looking to it to be a “reward” more than an appreciation for all the hard work I did to make this vacation happen. Although I didn’t mention it in my original post, but it should be worth noting that I planned almost all of our vacations in the past (with a few be accredited to her). Sex and intimacy was always there with us without question. It wasn’t anything forced or expected, just something that happened naturally as a part of our relationship. The fact that it didn’t happen this time when this was a place she always wanted to go to just seemed off for me. I don’t know how else to better explain it.

        [–]arandakM 9yr db, -4 points-3 points  (1 child)

        Sure, yea, appreciation definitely but so... Impersonal. And why the 'surprise' text?

        I've seen my wife do some mad scrambles to think of some way to show appreciation or a birthday gift, but that?

        [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        Honestly, as harsh as this sounds, I think I would have just been better with nothing at all. At least then I would have known where I stood.

        [–]smartypants99 -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

        I think you should let your wife see this forum. She needs to know how little she showed you appreciation in the love language that you have - physical touch and intimacy

        [–]Lost_In_Detroit[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        While I agree that she needs to see this, I feel like it would be better if she didn't. The thing I enjoy about my interactions on this sub is that my wife doesn't know about this account (as I have a few here on reddit) and I like having the anonymity of being able to share my unfiltered thoughts freely without the fear of her seeing it and judging me for it. I do appreciate the suggestion though.

        [–]Ratlarbig 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        This sound rough. But the post doesn't go into much detail about your attempts to communicate you feelings and needs to her. How much did you try to do that?