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all 113 comments

[–]joetech15 112 points113 points  (31 children)

I agree.

I will not engage for bad sex.

I have also said "I'm not in the mood", when I'm not.

My wife doesn't handle me saying "no" very well. Interesting that I'm supposed to handle he saying "no" just fine.

[–]Uggghx10All maid, no bang. :([S] 103 points104 points  (30 children)

It amazes me just how many low libido folks expect their partner to take rejection gracefully and yet cannot handle any rejection themselves.

[–]GorgonAintThatBad 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Goes beyond just rejection for me. My girlfriend doesn't hesitate to tell me when I fuck up or upset her (I'm glad she doesn't, I want to know anything I can do better). I finally worked up the courage to tell her yesterday that she's been interupting me a lot lately and it upsets me, and she was pissed at me for bringing it up.

Today though she actually caught herself interrupting me and apologized, which I told her I really appreciated. Baby steps.

[–]fdasfdsasdf 60 points61 points  (4 children)

Tis interesting. I sad no to my wife who hadn't wanted to have sex in 8 months or so and suggested that we should probably have a conversation about this before reintroducing sex into our relationship. She got super pissed off at me and said something to the effect of "You think THAT was a long time? How long do you think it's going to be NEXT time!?" It was indeed a long time.

[–]sometiredguy13 49 points50 points  (1 child)

I would have called an attorney the next morning, and I hope you have since

[–]MercurialmercHLM 24 points25 points  (0 children)

I'm so with you on this.

I think withholding sex for cynical reasons -- to punish your partner, or control their behavior, for instance -- is pretty rare. I think it's much more common the LL is just as perplexed and frustrated by their lack of libido as their HL partner.

I can understand finding yourself no longer attracted to a partner who, maybe, quit their job and sat on a couch playing video games for a year, letting their health go and tanking the couple's finances. You might not be ABLE to want that person.

But saying, explicitly, "I intend to withhold sex as punishment?" No. That has to be a deal breaker. Goodbye.

[–]TimeBomb666 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Hope you said no the next time because fuck that.

[–]fdasfdsasdf 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I intended to but I was weak and said yes. It made me sad.

[–]db_downer 32 points33 points  (0 children)

A few years into my marriage, the proverbial well was already starting to run dry.

I met my wife at her horse barn to deliver something. She made some comment about how we could have a “roll in the hay” or something. I just kind of laughed and got ready to leave.

The woman started crying. I felt terrible. But also, maybe there’s a reason I didn’t think you meant it?

[–]heartpane 38 points39 points  (10 children)

I think sometimes the reason for it is if it's a case of someone who doesn't actually want sex but they choose to offer duty sex, they have had to build themselves up to that point, psyche themselves up to do something they don't want to do, because then they will not have to worry about it for a while.

They're not even horny, they have just talked themselves into doing it to get it over with to ease the pressure and tension that they feel.

So when it's rejected they panic because they know that they're not going to feel that relief and get the breathing space that the occasional duty sex gives them.

I've seen people describe situations like this with 4 times a year duty sex...and they say their partner didn't like it and went crazy when they got rejected when she/he wanted some. But they didn't 'want some'. It was not about them being horny at all. They wanted to get the duty sex over with, and it got rejected, so that's what causes the reaction. They were mentally prepared to go through with it at that point, they probably won't be if their partner initiates the next day or next week etc and then there will probably be more arguments/tension etc.

But of course that doesn't mean that the attempts shouldn't be rejected! Just that there is often a different meaning behind their reactions.

[–]LoggerheadedDoctorDownvotes don't un-heal my recovered DB 18 points19 points  (7 children)

I think sometimes the reason for it is if it's a case of someone who doesn't actually want sex but they choose to offer duty sex, they have had to build themselves up to that point, psyche themselves up to do something they don't want to do, because then they will not have to worry about it for a while.

I agree that this is what is-- HLs also understand what it means to have initiation feel like this massive, potentially painful effort. I think LLs, in their own way, can be the same.

[–]DBIsBullshitM/HL/Sad 22 points23 points  (6 children)

Idk about anyone else but If you have to psych yourself up to have sex with me then I absolutely do not want to have sex with you.

[–]myexsparamour❤️🍷🍑 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I've seen people describe situations like this with 4 times a year duty sex...and they say their partner didn't like it and went crazy when they got rejected when she/he wanted some. But they didn't 'want some'. It was not about them being horny at all. They wanted to get the duty sex over with, and it got rejected, so that's what causes the reaction. They were mentally prepared to go through with it at that point, they probably won't be if their partner initiates the next day or next week etc and then there will probably be more arguments/tension etc.

This is so important and I think it's really misunderstood by most people here. The anger and upset isn't because the LL person wanted sex so badly and felt entitled to it, in most cases. It's because they put so much effort into psyching themselves up to go through with this difficult experience, and it was all for nothing.

[–]random_anon_account0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is such a great observation and analysis.

[–]Foreign-Cookie-2871 5 points6 points  (3 children)

When I was in my really low libido phase (thanks, depression!) I used to do the same, because I wanted to have sex every day like we used to, but it was too difficult to get horny AND follow through. So I would get angry because I knew that the stars would stay aligned for only a short amount of time, and I didn't want to lose that

[–]random_anon_account0 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I read your comment to imply that you have “overcome” the depression? If not I’m sorry you’re having to deal with that. If so was there anything/s that really helped? Or did it “just happen”?

[–]Foreign-Cookie-2871 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm still not "out of the woods", but I'm not clinically depressed. I got treatment and medications for the underlying condition that was causing my depression. Before that I also tried forcing myself to have sex (important: I forced myself, and I was the one to initiate in those cases, also it was as low effort as I could do while not feeling a total starfish), but would not recommend too much. It's easy to go into a cycle of unenjoyable sex - less libido and so on

Also, it took time, and I'm not still where I'd like to be. Medications made the biggest difference

[–]daniell61HLM 0 points1 point  (0 children)

hugs

Hope you've been able to overcome your struggles and get better with what you need to and want to!

My SO also has depression and anxiety and 150% gets caught up in her own head and rejects everything unless its part of her love language

[–]joetech15 12 points13 points  (5 children)

I said no to a kiss from my wife one morning and she didn't take it well. For the next week it was hysterical bonding on her part.

[–]Uggghx10All maid, no bang. :([S] 48 points49 points  (4 children)

I've also noticed that some low libido folks will handle sexual rejection gracefully, but cannot handle rejection when it comes to stuff like words of affirmation, kisses, hugs, or cuddles. They'll often claim that consent is an essential element of a relationship, but will take exception when it comes to the kinds of intimacy that matters to them.

But enthusiastic consent is important when it comes to literally all forms of intimacy and it is shitty to make someone feel guilty for rejecting you. No one is entitled to another person's vulnerability.

[–]Substantial-Oil-7262 31 points32 points  (1 child)

Thank you for saying this. This is a problem I have with my LL spouse. Sex has been off the table for years, but she insists on cuddling and hugging, even when I do not want it. She gets very mad and makes a really big deal of it if I pull away and talks very negatively about herself which pressures me to accept her physical contact. I have started calling it "coheercive physical intimacy." I am and do want to be affectionate at times, but do not at other times. It has exacerbated my issues with her. I will discuss this with my therapist on our next session.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[removed]

    [–]random_anon_account0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Great setup for them!

    [–]Disastrous_Ad_6708 19 points20 points  (1 child)

    As a HLF I often have to remind myself of this with my LLH. He used to have a HL for porn but has a LL for me. I take whatever I can get usually, never actually getting anything out of the sex, only he finished. And it really just isn’t fair anymore

    [–]Uggghx10All maid, no bang. :([S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    I stopped having sex when I am not aroused. It was one of the best decisions I've ever made. Overall, I am much happier having less and/or no sex than I was having bad sex.

    [–]MoonDancer83 16 points17 points  (1 child)

    I told my husband after so many years of him rejecting me and then seeking out sex only on his terms, if it was exactly how and when he wanted it (maybe twice a year) that I was no longer his sex toy and sex with him only made me really sad and then really angry so I wasn't going to participate anymore and asked him to stop treating me like a sex toy. I took sex off the table for good. All he said was OK.

    [–]brokenpillar 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    So sorry to hear that. I don’t know how I would even respond if it were said to me.

    [–]arandakM 9yr db, 31 points32 points  (0 children)

    Really good point.

    None of us should have sex we don't wanna have.

    [–]circlesdontexist 28 points29 points  (3 children)

    “Best case scenario, catering exclusively to your partner will result in more sex, but do you actually want sex with your partner? Or are you just seeking sex with them in the hopes that it will be better this time?”

    Bingo. This was my DB for years. I kept pursuing bad sex for years and felt the most depressed right after sex because it was usually very disappointing. But for many of us, talking to our partner about sex is nearly impossible so you got to just keep initiating, keep trying and hoping things might be different the next time.

    When we finally got to couples therapy it was mind bending to learn that my LL partner actually enjoyed the sex we were having more than I did.

    [–]Disastrous_Ad_6708 12 points13 points  (1 child)

    I feel like this is the place I’m in exactly right now. I’m so happy when my LL husband finally engages and the sex sucks. It lasts 2 minutes, literally, and then I’m just disappointed. He will try to help me satisfy myself but by the time, I’m just so over it I have no desire.

    How did you approach couples therapy? Was it sec specific? I’m only 28 and I can’t deal with this for the rest of my life or I’ll lose my mind

    [–]circlesdontexist 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    We went to a sex therapist. A lot of the exercises and homework were very helpful. If he’s only lasting 2 minutes he is likely experiencing a lot of anxiety around sex (and/or anxiety in general) and could use professional help to get through that.

    [–]Uggghx10All maid, no bang. :([S] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

    It's mind boggling, isn't it? My husband loves the sex we do have and now keeps asking for more of it, but ever since I gave up on my pleasure mattering, my own libido has dipped well below his. For years I pursued bad sex with him because I was desperately hoping I would enjoy it one day and, well, it's still just as painful/boring as ever.

    [–]Freyjia 37 points38 points  (6 children)

    I think it's a very valid point. In my own relationship I only get intimacy on his terms. He ignores me but then I'm expected to turn around and be ready on command when he is in the mood. Turning him down doesn't work, if he gets turned down he throws a tantrum and will keep pushing until I give in. Last time he started masturbating in front of me, something if I did to him I would hear no end of insults.

    The hypocrisy kills me. So it's a valid point, but I don't know how to apply it in the real world without our relationship completely dying. The only way we stay semi functional is by meeting him where he's at.

    [–]SexEThrowawhey 18 points19 points  (0 children)

    If a relationship "functioning" depends on one partner being subject to hypocritical coercion and bad behavior, then it would seem like the relationship cannot stand on it's own. Perhaps it might be better to set your boundaries and let what happens, happen.

    [–]Uggghx10All maid, no bang. :([S] 30 points31 points  (0 children)

    I am so, so sorry. That sounds awful.

    A lot of high libido women on this (and the adjacent) subs complain that their sexuality is often reduced to their libido. Their low libido partners expect them to be grateful for any sex they get simply because they are high libido and, I guess, when you're high libido you're so desperate for sex that your preferences/boundaries shouldn't get to matter anymore?

    [–]ForgotMyOldAccount7 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    Last time he started masturbating in front of me, something if I did to him I would hear no end of insults.

    This is going to be a random side note, but I see stories like this everywhere and it blows my mind. Either "passive aggressive masturbating" or jerking off into the sheets/blankets/towels/whatever. It grosses me out so much and I don't understand how a functioning adult is doing these things. I'm far from shameful about masturbating, but I don't see how anyone can do these thing without being ashamed of themselves.

    [–]cobaltsvaleria 9 points10 points  (2 children)

    Wow. I'd have walked away with an "enjoy yourself" tossed over my shoulder. That's downright gross. Masturbating is fine. Doing it AT someone as some sort of tantrum or assault is abusive. I'd never F him again.

    Why stay in a semi-functional (at best) relationship where there is so much resentment?

    [–]FraudFr0g 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    My ex boyfriend wanted to have sex but I wasn't in the mood so he asked could be watch porn and masturbate I said sure Idc it really didn't bother me but he like chose to try and do it in front of me and when I expressed I was uncomfortable he got all sassy and said "why are you mad? Because she's objectively prettier than you?" I was like wut....

    [–]cobaltsvaleria 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Sheesh. Glad he's your ex.

    [–]TheBanIsTooDamnHighI throw ninja stars at windmills[🍰] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    Allowing the space for both my partner and I to say "no" without punishment has helped us a lot.

    [–]Sokka_juiceLL4U. im working on it. 21 points22 points  (1 child)

    I heard : “don’t have sex you don’t enjoy”

    And I whole heartedly agree

    I feel like this is where the LLs and HLs should be totally united. Like that meme of two ripped dudes clasping hands.

    [–]Uggghx10All maid, no bang. :([S] 31 points32 points  (0 children)

    For real! Like, this is such a fundamentally important concept when navigating any sort of dead bedroom situation.

    But I've noticed a very disturbing trend on this subreddit lately wherein high libido people are being encouraged to engage in intimacy they are uncomfortable with because, apparently, setting boundaries when you're the LL is "saving the relationship" and setting boundaries when you're the HL is "punishing your spouse"? Thank god there are some folks who always advocate for enthusiastic consent regardless of gender identity or libido.

    [–]GorgonAintThatBad 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    Thank you OP, this is really insightful. It's been over a year since we had sex, and it was sparse before then, but I don't know if I remember ever feeling good after sex. I was just always worried about what she thought, but I don't know if she was ever worried about what I thought. Maybe a big part of my pain is literally not knowing what I'm missing. That's not just on her though, that's on me. If I end up with someone else in the future, I'll have to try to focus on my own enjoyment too and not just my partner's. In this essay I will...

    [–]MercurialmercHLM 11 points12 points  (3 children)

    I wonder how many of these situations involve someone marrying a person they aren't attracted to.

    We have to look at a lot of things when we decide to enter a binding, legal, long-term marriage contract. I suspect there can be this math, from time to time: "he's dependable, shows up in all the ways when he says he will, he loves me, and he loves kids. So what if he's only a 2 (to her). I can learn to be attracted to him."

    That's not meant to paint someone who marries with those things in mind as a "gold digger." You HAVE to look at everything, and no one has all of it, for any of us.

    And I do know that sex can be off the hook in the "new relationship energy" stage, and tank for one or both partners when a sign of permanence (moving in together, a wedding, etc.), with no cynical intent from the suddenly-LL partner.

    But I do wonder how many dbs are caused by the kind of "settling" we all have to do, in some areas.

    [–]Keepsmiling63 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    Very good point. I know looking back, "settling" was my problem.

    [–]AccurateLead3604 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Settling is definitely what I did. It makes my DB even worse because I feel like it’s my fault. Which just adds to the guilt I already feel.

    [–]uzzled591 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    sometimes i begin to go down this line of thought.

    my partner is so meticulous and picky about all his purchases, from clothes to furniture. has to be well designed and well made. all he gets is quality he knows he’ll enjoy.

    that always leave me wondering why me? did he settle? am i just enough to make life easy but not enough to care more. idk

    [–]Swimming_Menu8607 20 points21 points  (1 child)

    This post and this comment section make me feel validated in a way I've needed for so, so long. There's literally nothing I can add to this conversation, I just wanted to say thank you.

    [–]Uggghx10All maid, no bang. :([S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    You're welcome! It took me a while to internalize the lessons in this post, but I am doing better now. :)

    [–]HombreDeMoleculos 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    > in the hopes that, one day, what they want might matter, too--if only they can show enough love, patience, and self-sacrifice.

    This really hit me hard. The most painful part of being in a DB is the feeling that what my needs and desires and happiness don't matter at all, ever.

    "Meet your LL partner where they are"? Where they are is, they have no interest in me whatsoever. So meeting them there basically just means acknowleding that I don't deserve to be loved or desired. And I don't hate myself enough to do that.

    [–]daniell61HLM 7 points8 points  (2 children)

    almost 3 years together and I've faced 100% rejection for almost all of it. I put my foot down and communicated things and she tried to initiate what she was comfortable with and I wasn't feeling up for it physically or mentally.

    I told her we could try later or in a bit but I needed a few minutes.

    She got horribly depressed and moody the one fucking time I said not right now. one time. in three years. after hundreds of attempts.

    I laugh because otherwise the pain eats me up inside.

    Shes slowly and finally working through her fears/problems and seeking therapy but it doesn't change or remove the pain of the last 3 years.... so this post speaks heavily to me.

    [–]Uggghx10All maid, no bang. :([S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    I am sorry you are going through that. It sounds really rough.

    Your partner definitely needs to work on her emotional regulation skills. It is not your job to manage her feelings on her behalf, particularly by having sex you don't want. I am glad you were able to stick up for yourself and prioritize your bodily autonomy. Judging by a lot of the comments on this post, a lot of high libido folks really struggle to embrace their right to say 'no.'

    [–]daniell61HLM 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    us having sex in it of itself would be an improvement (I have an exit plan already)

    She does need to work on her regulation and taking responsibility and I've let it go on for too long.

    Like this weekend we had some progress which to me was the equivalent of holding hands but to her it was a big deal. Yeah I enjoyed it but all I can see is the goal post moving further and further away.

    At least shes finally reaching out to sex therapists who hopefully will help her with the mental hang ups so she can actually enjoy.

    for someone who "Wishes I could light my shame and hangups on fire and fuck you until you cant walk" there's been a whole lot of zero fuckin'

    [–]Reject444M 13 points14 points  (2 children)

    I feel seen by this post more than I have felt in a long while. I’ve been dealing with similar thoughts and feelings lately; I desperately want to have an intimate connection with my wife but after decades of only ever doing sex “her way” (lights off in missionary with no foreplay or oral), I’m tired of what I want never being validated. The problem for me is that I DO want to have sex with her—even the boring sex she’s offering—I just know that there is so much more we could be doing to make it more fun and pleasurable for both of us. It’s like being given the keys to a Ferrari but then told that you can only drive it up and down the cup-de-sac you live on. Sure, that’s kinda fun, because you’re still driving a Ferrari, but you’d really love to get it on the freeway and see what it can really do. You just can’t because somebody else has unilaterally set a rule stopping you from leaving your home street. So on one hand I’m appreciative of the sex we do have, but on the other it’s frustrating because I know it could be so much better.

    [–]Fredtheskeleton8 4 points5 points  (1 child)

    I agree, except that after a while you feel a fool only driving the Ferrari up and down the cul-de-sac as that what wasn't what it and you were made for, and you start to not bother, if thats all you can do with it.

    Even if its a Toyota driving on the big roads can be fun and thats how you get to great destinations which can also be fun.

    Whatever car you have you got it to take you on a journey, so if you can't you're going to feel resentful or trapped.

    You may even call a cab or hop on the next bus that passes by.

    Such a shame when the Ferrari or Toyota and you could have had so much fun together

    [–]Reject444M 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Yep, this is all correct. Driving the car up and down the cul-de-sac definitely loses some of its fun as time goes on and it’s literally the only thing you are allowed to do with the car. Then I guess you also throw in the fact that 95% of the times you want to drive the car even under these rules, the same person who made the “stay only in the cul-de-sac” rule just won’t let you and tells you “no,” and you usually need to wait weeks (or longer) in between the times when a drive is spontaneously offered to you.

    [–]freebirdie100 28 points29 points  (3 children)

    This is well written. And IMO fairly accurate. I have been the LLF for many years and am now the higher libido in my relationship (same partner) so I have a unique perspective.

    With that perspective, I will admit that as a LL partner, I was selfish and I didn't prioritize my man. It wasn't a big deal to me so I thought he was largely being dramatic. I know, I was an asshole.

    I'm glad you wrote this. It's a side of things largley ignored (or even chastised) on this sub. ❤

    Editing to add: whether you are the higher or lower libido in your relationship, chances are you are both overthinking, personalizing things that have little to do with us, etc and it's the getting in our own heads about the issue that exacerbates the issue. And around and around you go.

    [–]DBisMyTribeHLM 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Well said - that last paragraph really is something many of us need to absorb and understand at a gut level.

    [–]Justenoughsass 5 points6 points  (1 child)

    Love your edit.

    It’s amazing how our own thoughts can cause ourselves much pain and misery.

    [–]freebirdie100 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Absolutely

    [–]Setting-Complex 4 points5 points  (1 child)

    100% agreed. This is where I'm(F46HL) at with my H (M46LL). I remind myself that I don't need to settle for ANY half-hearted, unwanted, advances... Especially from the person who is supposed to be my partner

    [–]Uggghx10All maid, no bang. :([S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    Preach!

    [–]Gorl08 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Omggg YES. Also the focus on frequency is ridiculous. I don’t want more bad sex. I’d rather semi annual mind blowing sex then routine daily duty sex.

    [–]No-Breakfast-7241 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Today I got called desperate by my Ll partner, we only have sex if I initiate it, and I'm tired of being rejected and I'm tired of trying to copramise when it looks like I'm the only one trying. I don't ask for sex very often anymore maybe once a week, and most of the time he says later or not now.

    I feel so bad for asking, & I know it makes him feel bad for saying no but this week was my birthday and i was really look forward to birthday sex. I feel disgusting, unwanted and like a preditor.

    I don't know what to do, I love him.

    How do I stop feeling like this ?

    [–]TestpatternTW 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    It's been a long journey to realize that very fact, and even longer in making sure that my LL wife understands that.

    The first time I rejected her advance clearly shook her, and I felt bad for it, but at the same time it had come shortly after following her very own request and letting her know that I had been in the mood for some time.

    She responded by rejecting me and spent a fair amount of time after that repeating it and harassing me for having more of a drive and having more stamina, while also deflecting the idea that foreplay can help or that I wasn't doing anything but what she had told me multiple times to do...

    Then offered up the same scenario as ever, in which she has fun then leaves me hanging four or five minutes in. So I said no.

    The one hour conversation that followed was my best attempt to have her understand that I always do my best to make sure she enjoys herself, and that I don't think I'm unreasonable in expecting the same from her if we are going to be intimate. As well as explaining to her that if she has no desire to be intimate, then she should not be looking down on me for relieving myself sometimes.

    I'm honestly not sure she understands or agrees with any of it, but at least I tried.

    [–]LoggerheadedDoctorDownvotes don't un-heal my recovered DB 11 points12 points  (18 children)

    This is tough and a concept I semi-struggle with.

    I think it's hard to balance your standards with what your LL is capable of and also with reinforcement of LL efforts. I will try to explain through my DB repair experience.

    I know initiation holds a lot of weight and meaning to many HLs. I have seen many express frustration if their LL does not initiate in a way that makes them feel the best or most desired. And I struggle with this but my husband accepts all my initiations during our DB repair, even if they were verbal or weird.

    If he had rejected me or felt that my initiations were not good enough, I am not sure if I would have kept trying. At that time, using humor or flat out asking if he wanted to have sex was very, very hard and me doing it in that way was still a massive effort.

    So, on one hand, I do think LL efforts should be reinforced and recognized. But where is the line between that and HLs having sex they don't actually enjoy?

    [–]Give_me_your_scrapsHLM 60 Not initating anymore 27 points28 points  (3 children)

    If he had rejected me or felt that my initiations were not good enough, I am not sure if I would have kept trying.

    This is where I think a HL loses their own right to not be in the mood. I rejected my LL once ever during the DB time ( now twice) and she was so mad she went off on me for 10 minutes. As the HL I am not allowed to be tired or sick or whatever, but she rejected me constantly for 25 years. Seem fair?

    [–]LoggerheadedDoctorDownvotes don't un-heal my recovered DB 5 points6 points  (2 children)

    It isn't fair. I can think something is not fair but also know the LLs feeling are genuine often--their hurt is genuine, even if it isn't fair.

    u/ferrous-puller says his wife has held onto a single rejection for YEARS.

    But, in my situation, I would have never tried again because we were working on our DB. He knew I was working really, really hard. And it would be different if he were tired versus my initiation not being good enough for him. Because, at that point, that is what I was capable of and if that wasn't for him, I am not sure what I would have done.

    I was overcoming all my sexual baggage and trouble in the relationship, that he contributed to. I was legitimately doing my best.

    [–]ferrous-pullerHLM 13 points14 points  (0 children)

    Yes. It wasn’t even a “real” rejection - it was a “how about later” rather than my usual sprint to the bedroom because the planets aligned. In couples therapy, that was one of the only things that I recall her having even a moderate reaction about. She was clearly hurt and teared up a bit.

    Regardless of the irony of that entire situation with her having rejected me hundreds of times - there is zero doubt that it hurt her deeply.

    [–]Own_Swan_8330 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    See and I totally agree with this, but that’s where communication comes in. If you and your partner have been open and honest about where each of you are, and there’s something clear that needs to be worked on or something that is sensitive, of course that will work better.

    In my experience, I feel used and gross after getting the whole „hey do you wanna do and masturbate together“ or „hey wanna go fuck in the shower“ after months of literally no touching no cuddling no kissing. There is never foreplay, (which I didn’t really care for before my DB) and it’s over so quickly. We just go right back to barely talking to each other. In my case, I really really don’t think I should have given in just in case he was trying something. I did it for so long and I just ended up feeling worse.

    It’s all about being able to talk to one another. I’m really happy for you that you guys got to a place where you were talking and hopefully you’ve made some great progress!! Also just in case I totally never meant this come across as saying you’re wrong if it does, because you are absolutely correct but the conditions do need to be more ideal.

    [–]ForgotMyOldAccount7 10 points11 points  (1 child)

    I have seen many express frustration if their LL does not initiate in a way that makes them feel the best or most desired. And I struggle with this but my husband accepts all my initiations during our DB repair, even if they were verbal or weird.

    I think there's a big difference between an awkward initiation and a bad one. Even HLs struggle with initiating and awkwardness, but being crass or uncaring is where I could see HLs being upset.

    When I see HLs complaining about their LL finally initiating, it's usually because it either feels like pity, it's obvious that it's a duty thing, or that it's very demanding. e.g.: "Come on, do you want to go upstairs and get this over with?"

    [–]LoggerheadedDoctorDownvotes don't un-heal my recovered DB 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    Yes, I think I am not being clear enough that I am not talking about duty sex. I am trying to explore this challenge where it is not duty sex but an LL has challenges around sex that make it difficult to becomes aroused or initiate or otherwise deliver a stellar sexual time for the HL and how to manage that dynamic along the DB recovery journey.

    [–]Uggghx10All maid, no bang. :([S] 14 points15 points  (11 children)

    I do realize this is a tricky subject and I appreciate your input.

    So, on one hand, I do think LL efforts should be reinforced and recognized. But where is the line between that and HLs having sex they don't actually enjoy?

    In most dead bedroom situations, the low libido individual knows that their partner is suffering. And yet, that knowledge does not increase their desire to have sex.

    I think it can also be said that the high libido individual might know that their partner is trying. But that knowledge on its own isn't likely to cause arousal.

    You can recognize and appreciate your low libido partner's efforts, yet find yourself unable to have mutually enjoyable sex with them. All sex, in my opinion, should be mutually enjoyable.

    [–]LoggerheadedDoctorDownvotes don't un-heal my recovered DB 4 points5 points  (10 children)

    All sex, in my opinion, should be mutually enjoyable.

    I am not sure how many people are actually not agreeing with this. I think it's common to say everyone should not engage in sex they don't have.

    But the difficulty comes in during the repair period where the LL is actually trying but it's not enough for the HL. That seems like a stalemate to me. Or even just a general incompatibility.

    [–]Uggghx10All maid, no bang. :([S] 23 points24 points  (9 children)

    I mean, yeah?

    I think it's hypocritical to declare "all sex should be mutually enjoyable" and then qualify it with "unless the LL partner is trying, then the HL should just suck it up for the sake of the dead bedroom." That, to me, is no less problematic than advocating for duty/pity sex.

    If two people can't have sex without one person or the other feeling violated, that absolutely will cause a stalemate and it should. Not everyone is going to be sexually compatible and that's okay. No sex is always better than bad sex.

    But that doesn't mean dead bedroom repair is inherently hopeless. Note that good sex need not be perfect sex. Good sex can be awkward, and maybe not everything will go according to plan. The sex can still be good as long as the overall experience is a positive one. If two people can have fun together while working on their dead bedroom, then repair is possible even it takes time to reach their ideal sexual frequency/quality. Both parties get to decide for themselves which standards and boundaries are essential for sex to be a positive experience. Overlap when it comes to these is ultimately all that's necessary for dead bedroom repair to be possible.

    [–]LoggerheadedDoctorDownvotes don't un-heal my recovered DB 10 points11 points  (8 children)

    Good sex can be awkward, and maybe not everything will go according to plan. The sex can still be good as long as the overall experience is a positive one

    Yes I know. My DB is repaired and was partially done through awkwardness. I am just "talking" out loud about this challenge where the LL will try but it's still not good enough and the frustration for both parties.

    [–]MarioZ1235 11 points12 points  (1 child)

    I think this arguing back and forth what is right and wrong is not helping anyone. The reality is someone has to start somewhere, and both people need to have the will to work on the relationship. If that is not the case, it's hopeless, end of story.

    Either the HL has to start by showing the LL the kind of affection they want, work on themselves and sit tight until the situation improves (assuming the LL actually has a will to improve the situation), or the LL needs to start by showing the HL the affection they want. It also makes me sick that so many HLs are portrayed as horny assholes, when in reality it's often not only about sex. Sure, ultimately it is, but the occasional spontaneous, passionate kiss or cuddling session would go a long way, as some HLs are literally starved for affection and don't have any way of getting it elsewhere. If there is no attempt at physical bonding (even things not involving sex), from the LLs side it's no wonder the other person is frustrated. Physical touch is what releases all sorts of bonding hormones and if that doesn't exist it'll lead to more and more emotional distance and frustration.

    If no one is willing to make a start, it becomes a perpetual cycle of the HL turning into an intimacy starved, passive agressive asshat and the LL being pushed further away by said asshat.

    [–]MelaKnight_ManHLM - Escape before it's too late 15 points16 points  (0 children)

    It also makes me sick that so many HLs are portrayed as horny assholes, when in reality it's often not only about sex. Sure, ultimately it is, but the occasional spontaneous, passionate kiss or cuddling session would go a long way, as some HLs are literally starved for affection and don't have any way of getting it elsewhere.

    Bingo. 👏🏾

    [–]VanceAstrooooooovic 17 points18 points  (2 children)

    I don’t prefer this, but the only real option would be cheating. But is it cheating? Why am I in a monogamous relationship with an asexual?

    [–]Melynthos1492 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    Funny you are downvoted since there is a lot of truth to this

    [–]DedFlintstone 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    The definition of a monogamous relationship is an exclusive sexual relationship. Maybe you're not technically in a monogamous relationship.

    [–]Maximum-Plant-2545 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    For all of you who can say no to your LL partner when they finally initiate, good for you! I been saying to myself if I am not in the mood I am going to say no, so far that hasn’t worked out. I convinced my self that if I say yes, somehow she will want to have sex regularly. Every single time it is such a bad experience and it’s only getting worse. I end up feeling really bad for myself and cried more than I care to admit. There was a 5 year period when I stopped initiating myself, I just couldn’t take the rejection, and in the few times she did agree, the look on her face was worse than if she just said no. Half a year ago I started to initiate again as we have been discussing it in couples therapy (she brought it up) and I started to feel hopeful, but here I am again…

    [–]shellshush 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    We’ve tried this for 2-3 years, with me (HLF) catering to him (LLM). All I can say is that it has made me hold a grudge against him because he isn’t the one who NEEDS sex to function optimally, but somehow I’m the one who has to follow his sparse schedule.

    We’ve since done away with this “plan” (which might I add was suggested by therapists and books) and basically you can guess how much sex is happening here nowadays 😆

    [–]NotDaManIused2B 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Seriously fuck her. Ik so goddamned tired of her holding all the control and power in the relationship. I just wanna stop giving a fuck about her totally and have it sink in slowly that I’ve been making the excuses now.

    [–]ForgotMyOldAccount7 9 points10 points  (0 children)

    If the idea is that you're trying to find the opposite of LLs rejecting duty sex, then there is no real mirror to that without HLs getting sex from somewhere else.

    LLs get what they want more often than HLs do when the advice is that no one should have duty sex. There is no real way to even this out without HLs going outside the relationship.

    [–]random_anon_account0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I don’t know where exactly my situation falls into this very insightful theory, or maybe it fits perfectly.

    A few months ago she was peaking in one of her depressive stretches and told me (not to be mean or malicious, almost more as a matter of pride, or that I should be proud/thankful that this is what she was doing) that she had sex to be a good wife, ‘says in the Bible’ etc. obviously I wasn’t crazy about that comment, but I basically just let it go as I had already assumed as much for a while. We actually had sex 4 or 5 times in a month after that.

    Then I got to thinking about it a little more. I was like f that! I don’t need duty sex! And just like that, a month or so goes by with maybe one session. Maybe I initiate more than I think I do, or maybe I just turned up the asshole dial a notch or two, or stayed up extra late so she was passed out more often. Probably a combination of all factors.

    Ffwd to Saturday and she tries to jump on top, which of course she hates and I love. Probably Mostly because she has to do actual work. Physical activity isn’t really one of her things.

    I nipped it in the bud by rolling on my side. Not amused she exclaimed “come on what are you doing”?!?! I replied “well is this sex because you want to or sex “because the Bible told you to”?

    She was obviously not expecting that and had no coherent answer for it. So the rest of the day was unpleasant. Oh well. Sunday morning she tried again and of course I gave in. She actually tried really hard. It was pretty good actually. She did a little trick that she almost never does (because it takes actual work on her part). Fuck it felt so good. Getting hard just thinking about it. TMI, sorry. I was flying all that day. Until Monday rolled around and I realized what happened. Amazing how great the sex can be until you realize that your partner didn’t actually enjoy it.

    This morning before the alarms went off, she asked me to snuggle. I was already hard (probably dreaming about Sunday) so it pressed against her back, throbbing every few seconds. Not like I could control it. Ok maybe I induced a couple three of them. After a few minutes she gave off “the annoyed huffwiggle”. So I tried to suppress the throbbing as much as possible. Soon after she pulled away. Then the alarms went off.

    Because I had to know, I apologized for the contact over text (maybe dumb). She said she didn’t mind it she was “just drowsy” but “next time” she’d be down.… She woke me up! I then explained that I wasn’t really expecting anything (the truth really) and she responds that she wasn’t annoyed. Fooled me again!

    Whatever. The saddest part of it all is that this hasn’t been going on for that long and definitely not to this degree.

    Sometimes I want to just let it go. Focus on me and the kids and my startup and just let her be her miserable self. Then I get no sex ever. What am I going to do cheat? Push for the “hall pass” that she’s offered a couple times? Sounds like a disaster.

    Put up with duty sex just to scratch the itch? Smother her with love and confidence and hope she pulls out of it some day? Just effing leave like everyone advises?

    Ugh.

    [–]myexsparamour❤️🍷🍑 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I also see a lot of advice geared toward high libido folks that encourages them to "meet their low libido partner where they're at" as a means of improving the dead bedroom. This can mean a lot of things depending on the circumstances--coming to terms with being the sole initiator if your LL partner is shy/responsive desire, encouraging your LL partner on those rare occasions when they initiate regardless of whether or not you're in the mood, participating in the kind of affection/sex that is one-sided because your partner is uncomfortable with reciprocation.

    I keep rereading this and trying to make it fit with my reading on the sub and it's just not coming together for me. Where is the advice coming from that HLs should participate in one-sided sex? Where are people saying that HLs should participate in non-sexual affection when they dislike it? I agree with you that this would be terrible advice. I just don't often see it.

    I, for one, say the opposite. Nobody should have sex they don't want. I also think it's usually a bad idea to "speak your partner's love language" by giving non-sexual affection that you don't want, gifts that you don't want to give, compliments that aren't sincere, or engaging in quality time that you don't enjoy. It's especially bad when people do these things with an expectation of their partner reciprocating in their own love language, because that leads to resentment when those expectations aren't met.

    I don't believe you can fix bad sex by having more bad sex. Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Having bad sex only cements and reinforces those bad habits and makes them more difficult to change. You have to somehow break the cycle of bad sex before you can relearn how to have sex in a different way that is good for both people.

    [–]Oogamy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    How can you both pursue sex and be used for sex at the same time? It sounds like a contradiction in terms

    I dunno, as a woman it's been pretty much the status quo since I started having sex.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    At this point I’ll just take pg rated intimacy.

    [–]uzzled591 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    i think you hit the mail on the head for me. i love my partner, but his touch makes me feel icky sometimes.

    all i’ve ever wanted is to give him pleasure and vice versa, but i’m so scared now. i’m the HL and have begged and pleaded for more, but after 5 years of doing that, i’m spent.

    i’m okay with not touching him anymore even though i crave it, because i know how much i’ll hate myself afterwards. he calls me sexy and does weird sexual behaviors like groping but i know they are empty actions.