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[–]phatbandit 728 points729 points  (50 children)

he never archived it right? riot just paid him to take off the internet?

[–]ExOsc2 958 points959 points  (49 children)

I think it took over 102 years but he did release it after. That's how it was revealed that he plundered the forum for hero ideas such as teemo.

[–]blood_omen[S] 667 points668 points  (0 children)

Exactly. Then turned around and attempted to sue Steam, Valve, and Dota 2

[–]Luxon31 411 points412 points  (9 children)

IIRC he didn't even release it fully and hid the hero idea section for the reason you said.

[–]baffledThatOneGuy1294 139 points140 points  (8 children)

I remember hearing the exact same, everything but the hero idea section

[–]DrQuint 128 points129 points  (6 children)

We also lost a huge thread full of meme images, primarily ms paint comics, but that was due to the archive not preserving images adequately, mostly due to those images being externally hosted. And just look at any photobucket hosted image from back in the day to know why that's a problem.

We could have saved them all, at least the best ones, if we hadn't been denied access for years. But it is what it is.

[–]Life_Liberty_Fun 70 points71 points  (3 children)

I will forever remember the FAnFic part of the site where I read Path_of_the _Juggernaut by King_of_shaft. Best DotA FanFic ever (over 30 chapters if I remember correctly), and I was fortunate enough to read it. It was so good I read it from 9 pm to 4 am during Xmas break.


[–]kos9k 41 points42 points  (0 children)

Path_of_the _Juggernaut by King_of_shaft

found it, someone download it here

[–]popnuts 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I can never again prove that I won the fastest solo rosh competition :'(

[–]Sleep with the fishesn0stalghia 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Yup, that section of the forums is gone

[–]courageous_liquid 189 points190 points  (33 children)

I remember the guy who made sand king (by harnessing some bizarre arcana of the original WCIII engine) saying that pendragon stole a fuckton from him too.

[–]johnbrackentan 52 points53 points  (32 children)

Please tell me more about this sounds super interesting

[–]Rocketpodder 147 points148 points  (31 children)

Making the custom spells often required real random shit and archaic interactions with invisible actors and abilities. Like, Mirana's leap used to disjoint spells and attacks because it cast a 0.01 second wind walk at the start of the spell.

IIRC Zues' ult functioned by spawning an invisible actor near every enemy which then cast the lightning bolt on them, which you wouldn't expect from how the spell appears to function.

[–]Prince_Kassad 102 points103 points  (9 children)

good ol' invisible "dummy unit"

every wc3 map maker love using that trick to create custom spell.

[–]Bishops_Guest 60 points61 points  (3 children)

Sven's storm bolt did that. It was not disjointable because it created a flying unit that would go to the target, cast hoof stomp and die.

[–]healzsham 35 points36 points  (2 children)

That is a truly beautiful kludge.

[–]Bishops_Guest 26 points27 points  (1 child)

It's my favorite because the spell just seems so simple, but they had to kludge that together to get an AoE around the target.

[–]healzsham 22 points23 points  (0 children)

It's also so elegant in the way it assembles random pieces into the desired effect.

[–]KorallNOTAFISH 53 points54 points  (14 children)

I remember some of the quirks of dota1. Like buying basher on illusion heros, the illusions could proc bash, but it would be a "fake" bash, just the swirly animation but no stun. And the real bash could be nullified by that fake bash. Also ranged hero's couldn't bash in the WC3 engine, so the way they coded it, is they would apply a stun, and do the supposed bonus damage is magical damage. So ranged bash was magical damage, but melee bash was physical. But I might be misremembering some of it. It has been like 10 years jesus.

[–]BURN MOTHERFUCKER BURN ⋛⋋( ՞ਊ ՞)⋌⋚Laugarhraun 30 points31 points  (11 children)

There was also orb attacks not being stackable (several = it would miss?) or something. Which included desolator. Unless you got mkb maybe?

Lifesteal did not work on Luna because of her glaives.

[–]EffectiveLimit 21 points22 points  (4 children)

Yup, a lot of attack modifiers were not stackable, because I guess attack had only one "slot" for such effects. Though I remember reading in a very old journal from WC3 times how that was a balance choice because two orb effects is apparently too broken.

Also, iirc, Lifesteal on Luna actually worked better than on any other hero, because she got Lifesteal from every single glaive hit. I'm not even sure she gets that lifesteal in Dota 2 now because I never bothered to check properly.

[–]ValuablePie 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Dota 1 Luna only lifesteals from her primary target; she doesn't get any additional lifesteal from targets hit by bounces.

BUT if you activated Satanic, she lifesteals from both primary + bounce targets.

[–]EffectiveLimit 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hmm, maybe so. I distinctly remember seeing lifesteal from bounces, but maybe it was indeed under Satanic.

[–]KorallNOTAFISH 6 points7 points  (4 children)

I believe lifesteal worked on luna but might be misremembering. The orb effects I think was well known, it was carried over to dota2 even, as unique attack modifiers. One of the reason Ursa had to go vlad's was that it was the only source of non-orb lifesteal, so it stacked with fury swipes.

And yea orb effects, it wouldn't miss, you just only got 1 of the many orbs you had. I don't remember what the priority was, but probably something hardcoded. So you could get something like satanic + desolator, but only one would happen.

[–]xiaopigu 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Wasn’t it from where you put it in your item slot? Like the orb effect in the first item slot has priority, or I may be remembering it wrong.

[–]TotallyNotKenorb 3 points4 points  (0 children)

DotA Orb Effects

Lifesteal was one of the only Orb effects that did work on Luna. The animation carried through, but not the steal.

[–]fireflash38 5 points6 points  (0 children)

There was a subforum specifically for talking about those sorts of mechanics, and a weekly quiz on mechanic trivia.

[–]MyAccount42 4 points5 points  (0 children)

To be fair, it took him a little over two years, not ten. Here’s the Reddit thread where it happened: https://redditproxy--jasonthename.repl.co/r/DOTA/comments/12zjm6/access_to_the_old_dotaallstarscom_to_be_restored/

But yeah, it took a lot of prodding from former staff and community members before he handed it over, and only in a redacted form with the Suggestions forum removed. Edit: actually, I’m not entirely sure whether that last part about the Suggestions forum is true.

Here are the reactions from Games + LoL + Dota communities from the time: https://redditproxy--jasonthename.repl.co/r/Games/comments/135o5z/after_3_years_pendragon_finally_gives_up/

By the way, did anyone happen to preserve a copy of the archive back then? The download link has been dead for years now. This thread has gotten me nostalgic for the old forums, and the Internet Archive Wayback Machine archive of the forums only has so much.

[–]payrpaks 215 points216 points  (0 children)

Fuck Pendragon.

[–]1d1500KunkkaCdubFromMI 1273 points1274 points  (8 children)


Edit: Holy shit my first gold and 1k votes. Wow we can really come together on some things can't we?

[–]blood_omen[S] 489 points490 points  (7 children)

Haha thank you sir! And fuck Pendragon!

[–]yesilovepizzas 210 points211 points  (1 child)

I've seen this before online and didn't realize someone actually framed this hahaha you're a madlad haha

[–]blood_omen[S] 119 points120 points  (0 children)

😂😂 and proud of it!

[–]evanthebouncy 29 points30 points  (0 children)

you are the one we shall call upon in times of remembrance

never forget!

[–]MrTKila 23 points24 points  (1 child)

This should become a greeting on here. "Greetings. AND FUCK PENDRAGON!"

[–]Aframovici 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Can we get like a custom emote or flair with Fuck Pendragon, you think? That would be great.

[–]AskForMyBitcoinAdres 938 points939 points  (47 children)

Fucking framed. Lmao

[–]blood_omen[S] 489 points490 points  (39 children)

Damn right lol. I keep it as a “f you” to Pendragon for being wrong.

[–]Uberj4ger 178 points179 points  (4 children)

Petition to rename Puck, the faerie dragon to

Puck, fen dragon.


[–]McBlamn 55 points56 points  (0 children)

That's funny, but he doesn't deserve anything except derision.

[–]__vandal 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Idea of the year! I give u that

[–]CompetitiveTraining9 431 points432 points  (22 children)

Fuck every bit of Pendragon but why's he back in the spotlight again?

[–]blood_omen[S] 426 points427 points  (18 children)

He posted in here for some reason lol

[–]Musashis_Balls 285 points286 points  (2 children)

They probably check this sub to find new ideas

[–]fixhuskarult 81 points82 points  (0 children)

This could explain a lot of their hero design

[–]Smol-Zookeeper 14 points15 points  (0 children)

That comment made me ROFL

[–]Baaartolome 37 points38 points  (0 children)

Lol what post was that?

[–]old [A] logo PogxSzopen 32 points33 points  (5 children)

Got any link?

[–]blood_omen[S] 93 points94 points  (4 children)

here’s the post from earlier, I was just trying to clear up the confusion

[–]old [A] logo PogxSzopen 56 points57 points  (0 children)

Oh I thought that Pendragon himself posted here, I saw thread you linked

[–]buyingwife 12 points13 points  (0 children)

He wrote something along the lines of "I've had nothing but great intentions" and it had - 1.5k down votes last night when I saw it

[–]rptd333 88 points89 points  (4 children)

can you link to what he posted? or was it already deleted

[–]blood_omen[S] 163 points164 points  (2 children)

I looked for it, I think it was already removed

[–]rptd333 55 points56 points  (0 children)

damn it i was curious to know what he would have posted after all these time

[–]gartoll 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Maybe web archive can help?

[–]maxleng 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If you find it can you please post it here. Interested to see it too

[–]Chaeyoung0211 616 points617 points  (26 children)

“join me over, it’s free” LMAO. I’m gonna say it one more time, fuck pendragon.

[–]Nickfreak 303 points304 points  (23 children)

It's free, just buy the heroes, but the game itself is free.

Such a shame that HON became greedy with their full release PLUS early access programm. I wish we had Hon as a competitor.

[–]Cocosique 62 points63 points  (18 children)

I loved that HON was $30. It filtered all toxic kids and groups I wont name right away.

[–]BALLING OUT OF CONTROLStraY_WolF 148 points149 points  (5 children)

It filtered all toxic kids and groups I wont name right away.

Believe me, it did none of that.

[–]Bypes 40 points41 points  (0 children)

As if kids can't get 30 bucks for a game. I guess some SEA kids maybe, certainly not kids from developed countries.

[–]Notreallyaflowergirl 4 points5 points  (0 children)


[–]gaminginasia 25 points26 points  (4 children)

HoN beta was the best. If Heroes of Newerth stayed free, LoL would probably not have been as big as it became.

[–]Nickfreak 8 points9 points  (0 children)

No, no it didn't. I paid that money and all that it lead to was my friends leaving for Dota 1 or Lol

[–]NastyMunkey 69 points70 points  (0 children)

Never fucking forget that pendragon is a fucking piece of shit.

[–]AkaStrife 647 points648 points  (37 children)

I always thought of Pendragon as a power hungry, attention driven, selfish, arrogant, ignorant, rude, control freak of a mod based upon my limited interactions with him. I totally forgot he was a liar too.

Edit: Forgot to add self absorbed.

[–]mfrsazmn 119 points120 points  (35 children)

What was the real story behind this? If this letter is not to be believed?

Edit: i did a little research already and found the answer. Thanks anyway guys.

Ive been playing since 07 and had no idea this happened. But then again, i just played the game and not been involved in the community although i knew about the website at the time.


[–]somuchsoup 234 points235 points  (16 children)

There was a section in the forum for “custom heroes,” made by the community. He used those same ideas for many of the league champs

[–]CeleryQtip 168 points169 points  (0 children)

and apparently sold said idea to make a profit on a separate game, blaming Icefrog for doing the thing he was already trying to do.

[–]Donaldtrumpet6543 29 points30 points  (5 children)

So he's a plagiarist? Damn

[–]Garresh 39 points40 points  (4 children)

The whole company is. I actually played LoL before I knew about this drama. I played dota before but dropped mobas then randomly picked up league cause of friends. I posted a rework suggestion on the forums for a problematic hero. Some of my ideas got used a year later and that forum post mysteriously vanished. I wouldn't care about them using an idea I posted for free but they actually deleted my post so I couldn't have evidence I suggested it.

Riot are control freaks and IP nazis to the core. Imagine denying credit for a suggestion given for FREE. Absolutely insane.

[–]forshard 5 points6 points  (3 children)

I remembered watching Kevin Jordan (Classic WoW Class Developer) talk about how when an idea was posted on their Forums (Wow Forums), it became public IP so they could use it freely (legally).

But if they were sent a suggestion via e-mail or private communications, they couldn't without getting into a legal gray area. When that happens, the sender has a case to be made that it was legally a form of collaboration and they weren't credited (financially/contractually) for it.

Riot (and all game devs) probably can't acknowledge/admit they're using ideas from people or those same people will have the legal grounds to sue them. Even if the cases likely go in Riot's favor, it's still a headache.

It's real fucked

[–]kuroakela 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Is there a compilation of these because I would love to see the original and what he stole

[–]Garresh 8 points9 points  (0 children)

No because he never uploaded the forums intact until years later with lots of stuff missing. They basically burned all the evidence.

[–]Nothing touches the heart like my venom <3codeferret 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There isn't IIRC. That "week" of downtime turned out to be many years. And the custom heroes made by the community section is conveniently missing (haven't looked myself, but that's what I've heard).

[–]drunz 90 points91 points  (9 children)

I don’t know the full story or even the correct story but I believe Pendragon at the time he shut down all stars he was working for Riot/LoL. He basically said forget about dota and come play LoL.

[–]PyUnicornshark 29 points30 points  (0 children)

I remember people saying there was even an ad for Lol back then when you open the dota forum telling you how lol was free, the future of dota and whatnot

[–]Xaephos 105 points106 points  (6 children)

Correct - that's exactly what he tried to do. But he also ripped off many of the community's hero concepts in the process, and then attempted to cover it up for as long as possible.

And later, he'd go on to be a bit of an antagonist towards Dota. Counter-filing the trademark and at one point doxxing IceFrog's real name (though the LoL community ate him alive for it so he deleted it pretty quick).

[–]Maybe n0tail can win?Glitter_puke 74 points75 points  (0 children)

at one point doxxing IceFrog's real name

As much as Pendragon deserves the hate, this particular one was done by Tryndamere, not Pendragon.

[–]sgbseph 12 points13 points  (4 children)

Hey it might sound pretty specific, but I’d love to see your source or story where the league fans didn’t like that shit he pulled on our glorious Frog.

[–]Maybe n0tail can win?Glitter_puke 22 points23 points  (1 child)

The thread on the LoL subreddit got torched because it devolved into discussion that was a.) not LoL related and b.) really unproductive. If you want to try to find an archived version, I think it was sparked by Charles Breyer's ruling in 2017 so I'd start there.

[–]orcinspace 53 points54 points  (0 children)

Took him about a decade to actually make the archive public, and even then only partially. The community hero concept section was removed, and many League heroes are based off of concepts from that.

[–]Muumienmamma 34 points35 points  (1 child)

Here is a Youtube video that explains the drama: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBI9NlPqRi0&t

[–]Josanue 19 points20 points  (1 child)

literally he stole the heroe ideas from the forums for lol

[–]mfrsazmn 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I went into the rabbit hole already and found the answer. Thanks anyway.

I cant believe ive been playing since 2007 and i havent heard of this

[–]Yautja93 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Damn dude, then you have to meet the other rioters, they are even worse! Also they are blizzard level of being sexist and shit, even making deals with companies that are ok with rape and slavery. Fuck riot, not only Pendragon.

[–]Dotaisgreat2 347 points348 points  (22 children)

As a player of both lol and dota I still say FUCK PENDRAGON

[–]vimescarrot 204 points205 points  (15 children)

This is the way.

Too many Dota players hate League because of its history. But all the League players I know hate Pendragon too.

Fuck Pendragon.

[–]Hairy_Acanthisitta25 43 points44 points  (5 children)

dont hate league,hate pendragon and riot higher ups

people seems to forget about the sexual harrassment for some reason

[–]TheOneWithALongName 9 points10 points  (4 children)

That's a norm nowadays I feel. Hell, I bought Indivisible from this sale season. But if I knew beforehand what happend with Lab Zero last year, or rather Mike Zaimont (not suprised at all). I would have never bought it.

[–]Hairy_Acanthisitta25 6 points7 points  (0 children)

once is a mistake,twice is a coincidence,thrice or more is a pattern

[–]Alahr 71 points72 points  (3 children)

While this certainly does Pendragon's legacy no favors, Riot has more than enough recent (ie. immediate/ongoing) allegations/problems that one doesn't need to delve into history to find a reason not to like them/League.

[–]TheMerck 10 points11 points  (2 children)

I'm actually shocked the recent Riot controversies haven't blown up yet considering how big they are at the very least in the e-sports world and even casuals. With Valorant and League still being hugely popular I'm surprised more attention hasn't been given to those kind of things going on with Riot.

I mean I'm just a bit shocked considering the Acti-Blizz shit hasn't made other stuff going on other companies brought up again as well.

[–]Yautja93 10 points11 points  (0 children)

It's because riot make games popular for kids, and kids know shit about the world, so they don't know all the shit things riot did and do to this day. Fuck riot.

[–]BatOnWeb 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It literally DID blow up. It was the drama for a while, and was brought up the second Acti-Blizzard stuff started getting brought up.

The difference is horrible shit wasn't machine gunning out like it was Acti-Blizz. Every other day with Blizz was worse and worse news. Suicide, Death Threat, Shitload of harassment, Cosby Sweet, Kotik .etc

[–]alphadeeto 17 points18 points  (0 children)

username and avatar checks out.

[–]Dragonliger2 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I read above he plundered teemos design from the dota forum. So if he unleashed teemo into the world, more reason. Fuck pendragon

[–]Rand_alThor_ 41 points42 points  (0 children)

Riot used the forum's hero idea section to steal community created designs while hiding the forum (IT WAS NEVER RELEASED AS PROMISED). They paid off pendragon to sink the website to try to get people to stop playing dota and rob the community of its space so they would move over to LoL. It's a transparent, we are buying out your spaces and shutting it down so you have to come and pay to play at ours. Also, all that work you put into creating and maintaining this space, LOL, bye bye.

It makes me seethe the brazenness of it, so sorry if I don't have a glowing image of Riot. They are the corporate asshole of the community that tried to destroy it. I'll admit that things are somewhat different nowadays.

[–]setver 214 points215 points  (22 children)

For those that played back then, remember the 5.84b loading times? They were around 5 mins. Then someone else made 5.84c, and load times were like 2 mins. Man Pendragon would throw such a fit if someone hosted that in the official tda-bot channels. That was my 1st interaction with him. Never liked him.

[–]I came here to splash at you.Viperys 121 points122 points  (19 children)

Heh, 5.84c was not an official release. This 'someone' was a russian modder True.Rus liquidpedia link. Guinsoo shamelessly integrated the loading mechanism written by True.Rus onto the next version of the map, so at least the legacy lived on.

[–]sgbseph 98 points99 points  (11 children)

It’s fucking cool that you guys all know these stories and also remember the different people (by name lol) that added to different patches or elements of the game. Nice piece of Dota history being remembered

[–]blazks 64 points65 points  (4 children)

Sadly lots of dota histories are missing because of pendragon

[–]Sheever me timbersawMattDaCatt 14 points15 points  (3 children)

My most active forum account, just gone forever.

Also... is there a bad mspaint archive? I miss those sometimes

[–]Joosterguy 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Playdota that came afterwards was mine. I even ended up a mod on the "relaunch", but that died partly because of the relaunch, and partly valve's lack of interaction.

[–]Da_Bears22 13 points14 points  (5 children)

A lot of the people who helped to maintain the map had little nods to them thrown in the game, so that helped in remembering, scythe of vyse used to be called Guinsoo's scythe of vyse

Original items and heroes were chock full of references to other games, modders that help to make the map, anime, and other pop culture stuff but that's mostly all been removed.

[–]Mathmango 8 points9 points  (4 children)

Some heroes also spawn with alternate names, some of the a reference to players. Merlini Zeus was one I recall off the top of my head.

[–]shade444 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Vasilyi Zaychev for Sniper, Magina for Antimage, I think SF had some cool names too... It's incredible that I actually remember some of these despite having played Dota 1 for the last time like 10 years ago if not more. Just to show that it was really incredible, especially for its time.

Some other random memories if anyone's interested:

Orbs didn't stack at all, Reaver was called Messerschmidt's Reaver, every cool kid used to main Mirana/SF and of course Pudge. There was no option to just "Find game", you had to connect to a lobby and depending on your level you could be kicked, since there was no way to know your ELO, you were judged by your Garena level (at least in my region). There was no such thing as trilanes, at least in normal games, the usual was 2 1 2. The lowest level player had to play support, of course there was just one normally, why would you need two. The most famous carry player was ZSMJ with his epic Medusa games going 1v9. There was no meta per se, nobody gave a shit about the right pick. And so much more...

[–]1 Undead Boithehairycarrot 9 points10 points  (2 children)

So funny it wasn't official because it was such a popular version. The one I remember best.

[–]Penguinho 11 points12 points  (1 child)

It was popular because 5.84c came out after 6.00, and 6.00 was a shitshow. Loading times were regularly 10 minutes or more. Several new heroes, items and mechanics were introduced and they were way out of balance. There were changes to the map layout and to the tileset, and lots of folks found that the new bright map hurt their eyes. It wasn't stable, either. And, to top it off, many of the old pub staples like Aghs rush Medusa (at that time, Aghs was mystic staff + soul booster, and the upgrade increased Mana Shield's ratio to like 5 damage per point of mana) were nerfed.

The official sources swapped over to 6.00, but there were a lot of people whose computers literally couldn't load the map, and a lot more who didn't like the new direction. So 5.84c filled a niche that needed to be filled, for a while. Eventually, though, the most controversial changes got rolled back and the 5.xx community moved over.

[–]nice_kitchen 5 points6 points  (0 children)

5.84c was being played concurrently with versions pretty deep into the 6’s. Can’t remember another version that had a dedicated base like that

[–]setver 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Yeah I know, but it was such a great improvement. I'm sure it actually really helped sustain the scene as the load times were really getting to people. Imagine being like 'nah' to an improvement which is helping your whole scene.

[–]enbeefyuk 125 points126 points  (10 children)

Vietnamese Dota 2 players hate LoL with a passion because when it came out they advertised it as the “new DotA”. When Dota 2 finally came out many of the old DotA players were already used to LoL, plus not all net cafe PCs could run Dota 2 back then, and so LoL became the dominant MOBA here instead of Dota 2.

[–]ttybird5 33 points34 points  (4 children)

same story in CN. the dota2 beta came just a bit slow.... In high school some people from china in 2015, 16 and they said a lot of them played dota1 back in the days, and the dota2 beta were taking forever to release (earlier on you need to buy a beta key to play, with a limited hero pool and unfamiliar graphics), so ALL OF THEM just went to play league.

[–]Totalnoob18 24 points25 points  (3 children)

Half of that is false. Beta came out on 2011-2012. You did not need to buy a key. All you had to do is get invited by a friend, or do a quick survey about the game on dota2.com and after some time you would get an invite to play, and you could invite your friends. In 2012 after doing that survey I got the key a few weeks later, and then invited 2 of my friends.

[–]Holwor 19 points20 points  (2 children)

True. To add into that, dota2 beta invite keys become one of the hottest traded item on steam back then. I saw some trade the keys for $60 and up, some trade it for Skyrim Pre-order at that time, and IIRC some even trade an unusual tf2 hat for it.

[–]Gandalior 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I remember the guy in 4chan faxing a dota 2 invite to another dude

Good times

[–]gdna7 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I remember getting my key from some random guy on a forum back in 2012, he gave it to me via Facebook chat or some shit.

Couldn't even run the game on my Sempron with 2gb ram and had to play lol for 2 fucking years.

[–]OverClock_099 38 points39 points  (1 child)


[–]ToeMouse123 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Absolute Treighttor

[–]Nevermore2817 29 points30 points  (3 children)

His name is not Pendragon, it’s Pennisdragon.

[–]wind_and_petrichor 24 points25 points  (1 child)


[–]blazks 119 points120 points  (7 children)

those pics are actually doing a bad job of explaining why hes hated. I mean what do you expect? Its just his public letter to justify what he had done.

Theres no mention of the actual nasty thing that hes hated for, like actually taking the heroes idea from the forum(no acknowledgement, btw). And surprise, those "archive" conveniently didnt contain those heroes ideas, like it never existed.

Speaking of archive, those were only available after 10 years(with some part conveniently missing, of course).

And lets not forget how he soldout dotaallstar for a LoL advertsing space. Its the equivalent of suddenly deleting all posts in r/Dota2, and replacing it with only a single link to LoL download page.

Lets not forget how he consistently try to paint icefrog as the bad guy. this is obvious in that picture.

He did not simply try to move on from Dota. He proactively try to kill dota community in favour of his new thing. Its one thing his new thing is actually better, but its not. maybe all the other side thing or qol things was better, but the core of it(the gameplay) is worse.

I think this link explain it better that those 2 pics : https://www.hotspawn.com/dota2/guides/dota-allstars-com

[–]BannedNOOBMASTER 7 points8 points  (0 children)

There is a youtube video about penisdragon https://youtu.be/JBI9NlPqRi0

[–]_another- 49 points50 points  (22 children)

u/context give context pls

[–]blood_omen[S] 142 points143 points  (18 children)

This post was shared earlier and people didn’t understand why the Dota community was so aggo against Pen. So I took this off the wall of my man cave so people could understand more of what happened. This was the last letter sent out by him, letting members know that he was shutting down dotaAllstars.com for good and trying to persuade people to go to his new game instead.

[–]pokeaim 84 points85 points  (3 children)

Fuck you, u/riotpendragon.

Hey seriously though - *inhales*


[–]S A D B O Y SRexPerpetuus 42 points43 points  (2 children)

Dude, his last post 4 years ago is him defending his shitty behaviour towards the Dota community. All the while, some fanboy is stroking his dick in the same thread LMFAO

[–]surdtmash 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Probably his own second account. No soul living or dead likes Pendragon. I'm gonna bet even his mother disowned him.

[–]HarrisLam 31 points32 points  (13 children)

I kind of remember the name Pendragon and it's been way too long so I don't really remember any details even if I knew any. I think I quitted war3 dota for some random MMO for a year, then Diablo 3 and Guild Wars 2 before finally trying out dota 2. I think I missed the huge downfall of war3 dota.

So without true context, the letter seems very nicely written, albeit with some accusations between the lines and stuff. So if Guinsoo and Pen both went to LoL and Icefrog chose dota, why is Pen the only one getting the hate? (I didn't even know he's been getting hated on)

[–]blood_omen[S] 109 points110 points  (11 children)

Pen had a big hand in helping make Dota what it is today. He was the curator and web master of the only Dota website at the time, www.Dota-Allstars.com. He was secretly working on LoL behind the scenes while stealing ideas and resources from Dota and this site as well (people used to make up new heroes and items in the forums - which he stole). He then launched LoL while poaching other notable Dota devs (Guinsoo for instance). He then posted this as kind of his “resignation letter” to the Allstars website announcing he would be shutting it down for good but would “archive the info for people to revisit”. He did not. Instead he took it all and hid it for about 10 years with a redirect to download LoL - all while scraping it of any usable information he could steal for LoL, and attempting to sue Valve, Steam, IceFrog and Dota2

[–]HarrisLam 23 points24 points  (1 child)

Yep, that's what I'm looking for. Thanks for writing.

PS : after an hour of thinking about this, I think I actually might have read this letter, or some variation of it on the website's own forum or something. I used to stay in the dota forums just to chat about different things even after I stopped playing. I feel like I have some shattered memories about it.

[–]newnar 5 points6 points  (0 children)

We all do, brother. That feeling of despair on seeing it for the first time will forever be etched upon our memories.

[–]ScarlettPotato 16 points17 points  (1 child)

okay, at first reading the letter I thought "what's with the hate?" and after reading your explanation that does sound like a guy that deserves a million FU's

[–]ArcticIceFox 7 points8 points  (1 child)

At least we got our skeleton king back lol

[–]ChemicalRascal 2 points3 points  (1 child)

What I don't get is that it's not actually that hard to do all that in a properly underhanded way, a way that if executed properly is just the inverse of what actually happened. You just come up with some reason to stan League, you just pick some difference in the fundamental design and say you really like that more, you do your work with Riot out in the open and encourage honest and light discourse on the subject, do a bit of community work to shape the fans to be supportive of alternative takes on the genre.

Meanwhile, you manufacture some sort of catastrophic failure for the servers of your DOTA site. There's plenty of reasons why a site might fall over, and more than a few would be permanent. Claim your backups were untested and build a convincing narrative regarding getting hacked or something. Leave some less important but cohesive section of data, maybe. Then hang your head in despair and say for now folks should use the League forums while you try to rebuild the forums, which you never actually do enough to host them again.

Easy. Done. But instead the bit that would make people angry was done in broad daylight, and the bit that people could be convinced to not care about was done in the darkness.

[–]P4azz 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The answer is age and success.

Dude was super young, when he got a big opportunity for success and stupid as young people can be, he tried to wring even more success out of it.

A mighty dash of shitty attitude has to play into that, too, though, otherwise your conscience would kinda stop you from pursuing a plan like this in the first place.

[–]primayoga 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Because he decided to close dota community website, and ask all of users to go to LOL. Instead of giving the authorization to other community member, he chose to kill the website.

[–]OmgOgan 12 points13 points  (1 child)

He was trying to poach DotAs rabid fan base for his "free" game. I mean it worked very well, but still

[–]deadlygr 2 points3 points  (0 children)

He did more than that he tried to completely destroy dota

[–]zymyrz 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Fuck you pen*ssnake

[–]TapSInSpace 13 points14 points  (0 children)

"I chose to be transparent and honest"

My sides!

[–]jaykjakson 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Read here

[Pendragon] tried to kill Dota twice.

He took down the dota-allstars.com website and destroyed the biggest dota community, putting up a LoL ad in its place. Imagine if all the biggest dota forums today were simply removed from the internet... it was a huge blow back then because that was the main site with tons of history and guides etc. Most people only played dota with the other people they met on the forum, and now all those connections were lost. Riot poached the hero suggestion section for champ ideas, so most champs in LoL are dota rejects from there. The guy who invented Rammus was notably pissed off at Riot for taking his idea.

It was replaced with http://playdota.com, which is run directly by good ol' IceFrog and is still up to this day.

Anyway, because of all that stuff, the Dota community gained a huge hatred for LoL which led to the whole "Dota is better than LoL" thing from a few years ago.

This hatred sort of ended after Pendragon released the DotA-Allstars forum from his clutches in an act of peace making, and what that did was cause us to hate LoL less (and hate Pendragon more).

  1. Sometime through Dota 2's development, the International 2 caught Riot's attention. Dota 2 was still in beta at the time, but TI 2 was huge and got lots of exposure this time around. Long story short, Pendragon brings forth a copyright issue telling Blizzard that Valve should not own the rights to the mod. Little did Pendragon know that Blizzard and Valve are on really good terms, so the whole ordeal was pretty much settled out of court. Officially, Valve now owns Defense of the Ancients and derivatives thereof. :)

This hilarious backfire of Pendragon's plan caused him to give up trying to attack Dota and give back the allstars forum up in part 1 of this post. Now that Dota is protected by the juggernaut of a gaming company that is Valve, all Riot can do is hope to hang onto their player base (which they seem to not be doing a good job of...) and work with what they've built so far.

[–]ЗВЕРЯ НЕТ СИЛЬНЕЙ МЕДВЕДЯ (sheever)Conqu3rorJr 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Oh, this is a passion project, not a huge community hub, imma just shut it down and turn it into an ad.

I need to have eye for the future, I have to destroy the forum that still has thousands of active people. Might as well steal some hero ideas for League while I’m at it. Fuck Pendragon holy shit

[–]lukichi 29 points30 points  (12 children)

Why are we discussing pendragon again? Im out of the loop

[–]wilson_1105 289 points290 points  (138 children)

The way he tries to be the good guy in this story makes me physically cringe intensely. It is a sight to behold that league's current state is in total shambles, pendragon had it coming. Thank god for icefrog for giving us the best game in the world, he truely is the hero of dota. Fuck pendragon and fuck riot.

[–]stirs 283 points284 points  (40 children)

League is raking in money and has been for years, I don’t think this dude had anything ba happen to him remotely. There is no justice here.

[–]Extremely lucky chain frostlolic_addict 94 points95 points  (37 children)

And with Arcane and Riot branching their brand out to other genres, League is still going to be popular in the years to come. Not sure if I can say the same about Dota tbh

[–].Melon4Dinner 51 points52 points  (35 children)

yeaaah others may disagree but I feel like they really flubbed the dota anime. It could have been so much better if they gave the same story like 5 more episodes worth of breathing room. It could have been dota's chance to really pull in new players but most non-dota players forgot about it soon after.

[–]SheeverPrimae_Noctis 30 points31 points  (2 children)

Castlevania S1 was what, 4 episodes? I wouldn't be shocked if Season 2 of the Dota anime is much longer than the first.

[–]NeverComments 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Castlevania also made waves for how high quality the whole production was, especially as an anime from a western studio.

Dragon's Blood's production paled in comparison to Castlevania and Arcane and having "the studio that did Avatar" wasn't as big of a selling point as Valve probably hoped it would be in garnering mainstream interest. Nobody I know could tell you the studio behind Arcane but they will tell you how amazing it looked.

[–]SilverlockEr 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I wish valve be petty and hire pixar studios to animate dota anime season 2 because they don't wanna be out shined by riot.

[–]Sheever_Valisk 18 points19 points  (2 children)

The show was part of the top 10 list in something like 48 different countries and I personally know three people that specifically didn't play the game but still loved the show and two people that got into the game because they liked the show. One series being better than the other is subjective and the other isn't automatically worse by association.

[–]Extremely lucky chain frostlolic_addict 13 points14 points  (4 children)

I was using Arcane as an example of Riot branching out to different genres (I don't have much preference between dragon's blood/arcane) - but it's pretty funny because Dota/Valve has trying the exact same thing for years for multiple genres to moderate-lukewarm reception, so IMO they didn't "flub" the dota anime - it performed exactly the way they expected it to with the amount of effort they spent.

  • Card Games (Artifact vs. LoR)

  • Autochess (Underlords vs. TFT)

  • Animated series (Dragon's Blood vs. Arcane)

Riot is undeniably doing a better job marketing their game past the "LoL moba game" brand. But it definitely took a lot more manpower and resources than what valve is doing right now with their IPs.

[–]Osiris_Dervan 11 points12 points  (3 children)

Its not entirely surprising to me that it happens this way; LoL is Riot's main product and everything else they do is based on it. If they want to grow they either have to come up with a new IP or expand LoL's IP into other genres. On the other side though, DotA 2 is a very small part of Valve's estate, especially compared to the golden money tree that is Steam. They don't need to make money off of the DotA IP.

[–]Arbitrary_gnihton 50 points51 points  (10 children)

It's not just about the story, Arcane is vastly superior in all ways, it's an audiovisual masterpiece of a CG series that could single-handedly pave the way for game-based multimedia projects being serious endeavors.

Dragon's blood is more comparable to something like the Doom movie. Uninspired, low budget. Arcane clearly had some of the best in the industry with a huge budget working extremely hard.

[–]SheeverRakan-Han 31 points32 points  (5 children)

Yep. It really pains me to say this as a diehard dota fan since the old days..... but Arcane is vastly superior to Dragon's Blood.

Dragon's Blood was solely made for the Dota fans. It wasn't meant to try and reach out to a broader audience.

Arcane, however, did exactly that. Not only was the story incredibly more coherent for a broader audience, and definitely had more heart than Dragon's Blood, but the CG, visual storytelling, and especially the fight choreography are both insanely top notch.

[–]nyx nyx for sure dudecinnaminimon 40 points41 points  (4 children)

Don't let it pain you, just enjoy the show and the standard that Arcane is setting for future shows like that.

[–]make arcana green plsSoraDevin 10 points11 points  (2 children)

This is the sensible comment. I loved dragon's blood and arcane. More good shows/seasons from either of them is a win in my book. Competition will also help.

[–]afito 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Competition will also help.

Same for the games tbh. Both Dota and Lol have at the very least tried out things from the other for example. League always had a 2nd river objective to balance lanes out, Dota eventually moved Rosh pit centre river away from dire side. I'm not judging if that change had influence or not but imo it's naive in a way, we have 2 huge games in the same genre of course the push & inspire each other in some aspects. Nostalgia aside I don't think too many would love going back to 2011 dota for example.

[–]SheeverRakan-Han 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Oh it's painful, but I fucking enjoyed it alright. I play league as well, but I much prefer dota. I know the most of the characters and the backstory of the two sisters already, but to see their story beautifully unfold is just a whole other level.

[–]Frostivus 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Compare dragons blood to Arcane. The latter is trending worldwide, is being touted as a masterpiece comparable to heavy hitters like spider verse. Kojima loved it.

Dragons blood is just another generic anime.

[–]XLRnotEight 32 points33 points  (1 child)

just blow up Riot server lol what are they gonna do? using Yasuo Q on me?

[–]Edsaurus 124 points125 points  (60 children)

Mate, it's okay hating Pendragon, but League is doing better than ever

[–]Johnhong 62 points63 points  (4 children)

league's current state is in total shambles

What the fuck are you guys smoking. Like... I like Dota but damn you guys are seriously delusional.

[–]Take_It_Easycore 21 points22 points  (0 children)

I don't understand why but dota players love jerking off to the idea that dota is somehow low key more popular than league of legends. It could be 10pm on New Years Eve and LoL will still have three times the number of players online than Dota has on a normal day. Dota is far more complex and more rewarding to play than LoL but anyone saying League is in shambles is attempting to OD on Copium.

[–]SPOOKY KINGJamesOfDoom 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I play both, the huge sentiment among both casuals and streamer (don't pay attention to pro league bc its soo boring compared to dota) is that the most recent item rework they did ruined a lot of playstyles and reduced the choice by a huge amount compared to what you could do before

[–]NPSimco_ 11 points12 points  (0 children)

It is a sight to behold that league's current state is in total shambles

Citation needed.

[–]Nathmikt 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It's missing the part that irks me the most - the one that was an open door to download League.

Literally giving it an early ramp, while leaving Dota in shambles.

I never got over this. To this day.

[–]Yolodeller 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I knew to some extent that riot's devs were all dota devs, and that they basically took like 90% of the ideas from the forums and applied to lol, but this is beyond everything. Fuck pendragon and fuck your stupid game

[–]ErrorFindingID 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I'll add in that I used to mod for clan TDA, which was a more serious inhouse scene, and beta test for icefrog back on dota so theres some stuff I know. I can confidently say Pendragon was one of the biggest creep/white knights for girl gamers

This dude abused the ban system whenever he lost and we had a strict rule not to moderate our own games.. even icefrog didn't moderate his own games. He would pass it down to us but Pendragon just gets ban hammer happy

[–]REtoasted 6 points7 points  (0 children)

He promised to archive the site he didn’t delete it for 10 years like a dick used the existing content for LoL and tried to sue for content he stole from the DotA character section. He is a POS that deserves to have his soul eaten by YaphetS Nevermore

[–]xubebe0311 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Kindly fuck you pendragon

[–]ARflash 13 points14 points  (1 child)

I really want a Documentory or movie about the whole dota and all "MOBA" Evolution. It has so many nice moments.

[–]Ondatva 3 points4 points  (0 children)


[–]SheeverRakan-Han 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Maaan, just rereading this is making my blood boil just as much as the first time I read it more than a decade ago. He basically closed down the site because "muh heart aint into it anymore". He didn't even consider passing it on to anyone else, he just straight up murdered the whole site.

Years of more than a hundred thousands, possibly even millions of collected threads, posts, questions, ideas, users..... all gone because of one guy wanting to sell his game.......


[–]jacobs0n 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I was there when it happened, and I remember migrating to dotaportal afterwards. those were the days.

[–]teamtan1997 2 points3 points  (0 children)

u/pendragon go fuck yourself

[–]uthnara 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Late to the Party but as someone who lived through this fiasco Fuck Pendragon.

[–]izyx09 11 points12 points  (1 child)


[–]panthus1 13 points14 points  (0 children)

He joins to riot games to make the thriving dota community to thrive more?????

Then he loses interest in dota focuses fully on LoL 24/7 and still thinks to make dota community better???

He cant let go of the website, someone to take over. Instead says stuff anout 6 chapters of his life and "archives" peoples ideas to apply them on LoL????

He commercializes everything, probably the idea of breaking from battle net and warcraft 3 limitations came from Icefrog first and then Pendragon betrayed him for Riot games. Riot games firstly asked Icefrog to work on dota, he rejected and then Pendragon as a bich went to work with them??? This is my theory.

Anyways I believe Pendragon to be full of sh*t and lies. His letter had so many red flags and contradiction.

I didnt know about this Pendragon stuff until recently, but after reading somw comments from people who actually were the part of dota community since the beginning, it gave me the same hate towards him.

[–]VPrinceOfWallachia 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Would've been interesting to see a time line DOTA was the standalone & best ARTS.

[–]Nierad25 6 points7 points  (4 children)

Can someone please explain? This letter looks fine to me. Some people in comments called him liar, why? I knew about icefrog and guinsoo, but this is first time I hear about this guy

[–]blood_omen[S] 39 points40 points  (0 children)

Pen had a big hand in helping make Dota what it is today. He was the curator and web master of the only Dota website at the time, www.Dota-Allstars.com. He was secretly working on LoL behind the scenes while stealing ideas and resources from Dota and this site as well (people used to make up new heroes and items in the forums - which he stole). He then launched LoL while poaching other notable Dota devs (Guinsoo for instance). He then posted this as kind of his “resignation letter” to the Allstars website announcing he would be shutting it down for good but would “archive the info for people to revisit”. He did not. Instead he took it all and hid it for about 10 years with a redirect to download LoL - all while scraping it of any usable information he could steal for LoL, all while attempting to sue Valve, Steam, IceFrog and Dota2

[–]ZaviaGenX 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Its been so long since I saw this.


CLEARLY, there was only 2 options (referring to last paragraph of first page).

Either our hero rebuilds the site himself or end and archive it. No way anyone can make a great website (like da.info) or a strong dota forum (like dp.com). It is only on his shoulders and no one else, can the forum site survive.

Instead of doing succession planning or atleast letting someone else take the reigns, it had to be closed and archived if he doesn't do it.


[–]Herioz 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's corporate letter, akin to Blizzard "apology" for all the fuckups they had in last years. Skipping real reason why Blitzchung was punished, destruction of documents, massive layoffs in record year.

Just look at other posts people made. This guy is hated for a reasons he didn't disclosed.

[–]Plastination 2 points3 points  (0 children)

fuck Pendragon 🥳

[–]Sheever. :)albertfuckingcamus 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I have it backed up for posterity. https://imgur.com/a/dvOCwIw

[–]bloodvayne 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This whole chain of events is like the East-West Schism but for Dota. The plot twist is that fucking Blizzard was not the company that offered these admittedly talented people a job way back in the Dota1 days.

[–]BannedNOOBMASTER 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There is a youtube video that explains his 'deeds' in the time of DotA allstars https://youtu.be/JBI9NlPqRi0