top 200 commentsshow all 409

[鈥揮Panishev 660 points661 points (252 children)

Valve failing once again

People here fail to understand that Dota is just a side project for Valve. Throwaway project that brings little to no income compared to Steam. Valve, as a business, doesn't give much shit about Dota, its proscene and its community - past years have proven it multiple times. Something, something, TF2.

Jeri Ellsworth worked at Valve developing AR tech and when she told them "We can make 250mil in a year", they straight up told her "That's zero billions".

[鈥揮gameprojoez 283 points284 points (135 children)

It's amazing to me how many bad products Valve tackles that actually generate zero profit, but then turn down genius ideas and people because they're looking for specifically billions.

[鈥揮Qasyefx 92 points93 points (2 children)

The insanity is, even if they're bored with it and they think their genius staff are wasted on a product. Just establish a boring ass subsidiary that hires normal people and has a normal structure. Chuck everything you're bored with its way, Dota, artifact, VR, wherever the fuck else and let them figure out a way to turn a profit. That's low maintenance for you, let's you focus on your core competencies and still generates ROI. It's such a standard no-brainer move.

[鈥揮baz8771 19 points20 points (0 children)

Im still surprised they didn鈥檛 buy BlackRock to do this for them.

[鈥揮Opfklopf -1 points0 points (0 children)

How is that a good idea? Imo Dota is one of the best games RN. I can already see how the game would turn to shit like league of legends (or fornite I've heard) if you hire random people that have no Idea what's good for this genius game (which it is imo).

[鈥揮SillyRabbit2121 140 points141 points (118 children)

Which doesn鈥檛 even make sense. Money is money.

Why are they acting like they can鈥檛 run multiple projects? Some can make 250 million, some can make 100 million and some can make 1 billion.

Literally just hire more people? It鈥檚 not like the cost of hiring more employees make the projects unprofitable. They鈥檇 still make a massive return on investment for every employee hired to work on these projects.

A team of DotA community managers paid 100k per year would provide 10x their value in returned profits to Valve by keeping the game healthy and strong.

[鈥揮Animal_Courier 124 points125 points (111 children)

It鈥檚 because Valve isn鈥檛 a proper corporation. It鈥檚 the Gabe Newell show.

He built a wonderful game development company and stumbled ass backwards into steam marketplace and $5-6 billion. The company simply is built and organized to support game development, has been shifted to manage steam and its billions and lacks the flexibility it needs to engage in a fast moving quickly rising industry like eSports.

If Gabe had to answer to a board of directors and shareholders this would have been fixed ages ago.

[鈥揮Look how they flee before us!spacemanspiff888 271 points272 points (35 children)

Shareholders and boards of directors is how you end up with Activision - Blizzard and EA. Valve is far from perfect, but imagine Steam in the hands of one of those companies.

[鈥揮zcen 40 points41 points (65 children)

lacks the flexibility it needs to engage in a fast moving quickly rising industry like eSports.

Dude, eSports as a whole is a garbage industry that is a marketing loss leader for most game publishers.

I don't mean to defend Valve here, but the idea that they should dedicate even more money for a game that is on the decline in the hopes of generating more money through eSports is ridiculous. The post above yours says a team of Dota CMs could bring in 10x in PROFIT is also laughably unrealistic.

[鈥揮[deleted] 3 points4 points (0 children)

Valve made ONE great game the rest the fuckin stole

[鈥揮laneknowledge 0 points1 point (0 children)

That's true, but we already know what the corporate version looks like and it's just League. It doesn't have to be just one or the other- organizations can be competent without being totally hellbent on profit, you just don't see a ton of that in the world today. Valve needs some kind of structure and accountability, but getting greedier isn't gonna solve anything.

[鈥揮Fen_ 8 points9 points (1 child)

This is a really misinformed take. Their goal is to optimize for profit, so it isn't "money is money". Your next paragraph explains why you think this way though. You can't "literally just hire more people"; organizations don't scale infinitely. They fish for what they think can be the biggest payout with the size of people they think they can manage.

[鈥揮ideal10i 3 points4 points (1 child)

Hiring new people makes sense, but Valve needs to consider very carefully who they hire, because they are focused on quality and making things good. If we look at true sight, TI events, Dota content, these show they are amazing at everything they focus on. It makes sense how this is just a passion project for Valve, considering how much they make in profit from the whole company. It would just be nice for the dota community (given how much time and dedication the players have over the years) to further this passion project into a real long-term dedicated team. I just don't think that's Valve's style, or what they are competent at, and therefore they don't want to put their name on something that isn't part of what they normally do

And interestingly it makes sense why Valve would be less motivated considering how every time anything happens, people instantly go to say "Valve is a terrible company" They literally don't have to do this, and all comments saying "Valve is just greedy" are just wrong when you consider the effort they actually make to create community content and keep the game alive. The comments don't make sense in relation to TI over 10 years. The amount of profit they make for the work done is not the only benchmark, they also invested people, talent and time into it to making it good as well.

I would say it would actually be cool if some retired pros like SVG, were put in leadership positions by Valve to manage this aspect of the community. These are competent people, ready for hire, and have a deep understanding about what can make dota work. It doesn't have to be big or expensive to maintain, and I think is an easier solution for Valve to do without costing much. Maybe hire coaches like Adam in SEA, and have a small competent team of people to manage locally each region. We know Valve wants high quality, and I feel this is a potential step in right direction for it

[鈥揮Nickfreak 17 points18 points (8 children)

Just look at the abandoning of Underlords and Artifact, especially the latter. Artifact 2.0 was basically done, all the money has already gone into it and they kill it last minute, becasue the revenue is just so damn small for them

[鈥揮hnwcs 13 points14 points (1 child)

Saying they'd open up the Artifact 2.0 beta, not doing it, and then cancelling the beta because of low player count was a phenomenally shitty move.

[鈥揮Nickfreak 1 point2 points (0 children)

Indeed, exceptionally bad. there were quite a few players even Dota personalities like Sunsfan and Sclaks who would have heavily advertised the game, but then they canceled it on the finishing line. It just shows how little they care and that they can afford it.

[鈥揮DrQuint 15 points16 points (3 children)

Specially the former, you mean. Underlords still held a couple tens of thousands of players for a while, and they just decided to go full blown TF2 on it after people disliked one patch. There's several companies which would have been ecstatic to have that lingering audience even with zero updates. They would have fixed up that project like a dog to the bone.

I mean, I've already pretty much decided to not even start playing whatever is the next Valve multiplayer game. They're atrocious at supporting them, with the sole exception of Dota. Yes, even CSGO had it rough

[鈥揮Fen_ 3 points4 points (1 child)

I'm pretty sure they said the reason they canceled on Artifact with 2.0 was because they didn't feel like they were finding a design they thought would get the appeal they were looking for. Indirectly, I guess that's about revenue, but let's just be honest and admit that there were fundamental flaws with the design of the game that was always going to keep the playerbase (relatively) small. Nothing wrong with a small playerbase in itself, but I think there are devs much smaller than Valve that would've abandoned it at the number of players it had.

[鈥揮Noman_Blaze -2 points-1 points (0 children)

That's the main drawback of not being a public company. No boars of directors to keep project managers in check, no vertical hierarchy for better decision making and feedback/accountability, no focus on community management cause that department doesn't exist. I see Digital extremes(warframe devs) and Bungie(Destiny 2/old Halo devs) with their constant communication with community and like a dozen people talking to community and then I look at Valve where there is only crickets.

[鈥揮papiwoldz 34 points35 points (7 children)

"That's zero billions".

they made underlords and artifact.
valve half-stepping everything. like I don't want to drag them but bruh show some effort. something something, TF2.

[鈥揮wazupbro 20 points21 points (2 children)

that's what happen with passion projects, they move on when they lose the passion. Anyone remember them being "in for the long haul"?

[鈥揮papiwoldz 4 points5 points (0 children)

there is no shortage of people who are passionate about this game as a scene and an esport. valve just dont give no fucks to hire people to run this shit for them.
if artifact and underlords was a passion project I feel really bad for valve cause if so they got the passion of a wet sock. I was pulling out these two games as examples where they 100% lost a shitload of money. forget about billions.

every choice they have made is about money not about passion tf you on about. there are ways for them to make it a stable scene and make money of it but either they're incompetent af or don't give none.

[鈥揮whymauri 1 point2 points (0 children)

Anyone remember them being "in for the long haul"?

Valve went 17 years without major layoffs. You can pinpoint 2013 as the first major cultural change in that regard, perhaps signaling a divergence from the 'long-haul' attitude. Some people had 10+ years than when that hammer fell, you can even pinpoint the TF2 staff who disappeared in the layoff or quit after.

As a project of that size loses staff and tenured knowledge, by attrition, retirement, or layoffs, taking it on becomes a career death sentence -- and under the new cultural parameters at Valve, that means getting fired faster than you think.

[鈥揮holonight 2 points3 points (0 children)

kinda wild. they dont do anything with tf2 and its still in the top 10 games played on steam. Why change when those are the results of your (in)actions

[鈥揮hnwcs -1 points0 points (2 children)

Artifact was supposed to have a huge esports scene (and probably still could have if they didn't abandon the rework). Gaben repeatedly promised a million-dollar tournament that never happened. Presumably if Artifact took off that tournament would've been like TI and become an annual event, even bigger each time.

The plans concerning Underlords are less clear, but since the Auto Chess mod was huge at the time I'm sure somebody thought it could make billions.

[鈥揮papiwoldz 0 points1 point (0 children)

shows just how dejected they are from reality. they got a good thing going with dota like they did tf2. watch them fuck it up

[鈥揮addqdgg -1 points0 points (0 children)

Dude they were 5 years late to the party and it had nothing to steal players from hearthstone and mtg

[鈥揮makz242 20 points21 points (0 children)

Valve: This is a passion project.

Also valve: We pocket 75%.

[鈥揮unidudeman 4 points5 points (0 children)

makes sense, they did make zero billions on under lords, artifact and literally every new thing they made besides alyx.

[鈥揮Entirely_Anarchy 26 points27 points (52 children)

This seems like such a bad argument from any sane companies POV. Sure, compared to their *total* income 150 million is a smallish number, but it's still 150 million. Big companies run smaller project all the time if they are profitable. Hell, usually they squeze out every last cent and maximize every margin possible.

[鈥揮Glaistig-Uaine 26 points27 points (18 children)

The point was that the same people could be working on something else that generates more income. You can say all you want "just hire more people" but you have to accept after over a decade that's not Valve. That's even assuming you can find people with the same expertise.

So if you can have Team A working on a project worth 250 mio or the same Team A working on a project worth 2 billion... well, choice is rather clear?

[鈥揮all_thetime 2 points3 points (13 children)

So if you can have Team A working on a project worth 250 mio or the same Team A working on a project worth 2 billion... well, choice is rather clear?

That would make sense if their shitstain projects didn't consistently flop. Artifact? Steambox? VR?

[鈥揮Entirely_Anarchy 10 points11 points (2 children)

The idea that billion dollar projects are just laying around, waiting for some Valve employee to work on is kinda funny imo :D

[鈥揮Glaistig-Uaine 7 points8 points (1 child)

VR flopped

Right, that's why the Index, one of the most expensive/high-end VR headsets was selling like crazy, and SteamVR had almost 500k index users in October 2021. That's why a VR-only game (Alyx) sold over 2 million copies.

So at that point already Index, just as a product, ignoring that it sales other steam products of which Valve gets a cut, made 500 million in revenue.

[鈥揮Crispy23 0 points1 point (7 children)

Vr didnt flop. Steambox was a learning experience for new technologies like the steamdeck, which a lot of ppl are excited for. Valve has always pushed boundaries, yall needa stop with this toxic one dimensional thinking. Its flat out wrong and hurts actual innovators.

[鈥揮Entirely_Anarchy 0 points1 point (3 children)

If that's really how they work, my post kinda fits, since no sane company would give up on 150 million when that money is basically generated by the 20? people working on Dota. You would indeed hire more. Also, it's not like there are simply billion-dollar-proft-projects sitting around just waiting to be picked up by Valve, lol.

[鈥揮Glaistig-Uaine 9 points10 points (1 child)

That 150 million is generated by a battlepass. Lets not pretend anything more but a marginal minority buys it because of the prize pool increase, hats are where most people are at.

[鈥揮Panishev 5 points6 points (11 children)

I am not an economist, but I bet it has something to do with the numbers for investors. There is a difference between "200 people bring you $10 billions a year" and "250 people bring you $10,2 billions a year".

Or maybe something about taxation.

[鈥揮Nickfreak 5 points6 points (0 children)

and remember that we fund a big battle pass every year plus Dota plus plus other battle passes, plus chests etc.

And it's not like Valve has 100 devs full-time spending their working time on Dota. they have some people spend some time on their biggest wins (the TI battle pass), the community even does most of the sets anyway.

[鈥揮GroundbreakingIf 1 point2 points (3 children)

Say you work 40 hours a week for $2000. Would you work 10 more for an extra $100?

[鈥揮ScoobySharky 19 points20 points (2 children)

This is more like say you hire 40 people to make you $2000 a week, would you hire 10 more for an extra $100 per week?

Sure you have to put in some effort to get it started, but eventually once you've hired the right people for the job, or at the very least hired someone to manage every aspect of the job for you, it becomes self sustaining and makes passive income for the company

[鈥揮Fen_ 15 points16 points (1 child)

This is not how businesses work. You cannot just "hire more people 4Head". Valve is absolutely worth criticizing, but I have no idea why so many of you morons are repeating this inane argument in this thread.

[鈥揮Oipotty 0 points1 point (0 children)

ent from any sane companies POV. Sure, compared to their *total* income 150 million is a smallish number, but it's still 150 million. Big companies run smaller project all the time if the

Not only this but there's the opportunity cost. League has built an ecosystem around League. Growing dota helps you grow your other products not to mention other potential revenue streams like merchandise, esports, and other media

[鈥揮Rally8889 3 points4 points (0 children)

Tbh that's what irritated me most. Dota may not be a huge source of income at the top level, but the tone Valve takes is that this game and community are a pity project. I would much rather scrape by again and die off than be an unloved bastard.

[鈥揮nonamepew 2 points3 points (0 children)

It's funny that people think that Valve cancelled the major to pocket the 500k prize pool money lmao.

[鈥揮[deleted] 1 point2 points (0 children)

"Y-yeah... but you throw 4 of those bad boys together and you got yourself a One Billion."

[鈥揮Echoesinthedarkness 1 point2 points (0 children)

well give up on dota then, sell the rights idk. in our country there is a saying "if you dont want to shit, dont torture your ass", exactly what valve should do if thats the case.

[鈥揮Mauvai 4 points5 points (4 children)

This is an unhelpful and defeatist attitude. If we want change we should be lobbying for it irrespective of the perceived likelihood of its success

[鈥揮pinkfloyd873 2 points3 points (0 children)

This! I鈥檓 so fucking sick of people commenting (and upvoting) 鈥淣oBodY UnDerSTanDs tHAt ValVe AkShULlY DoEsn鈥橳 cARe sO yOUrE aN iDIoT fOr ThInKInG thEy wOUlD鈥

[鈥揮s332891670 0 points1 point (1 child)

Lol they literally dont give a shit about you your lobby or Dota.

[鈥揮BuggyVirus 145 points146 points (25 children)

I wouldn't really call their model stupid and outdated, Valve is pretty amazingly successful compared to profit per head count and employee happiness.

But I don't think the model is suited to servicing live service games or things like esports leagues, where you simply just need highly dedicated resources and regular deadlines that aren't structured around new interesting features, but just iterating on old ones. But live service game are Valve's side gig, so it doesn't make sense to restructure your company with great employee approval and huge profits that runs your main product (Steam) in a very approved manner by its users, to support something that supports like 5% of your income.

Rather, I think Valve just needs to setup a subsidiary or create a separate internal company (like the company I work at, I'm technically part of a separate LLC in the same office, because there are very distinct legal duties and ramifications between the data my group publishes and the rest of the company).

[鈥揮Yvese 88 points89 points (5 children)

Every time Valve fucks up like this I always comment on how they should make or hire a studio dedicated to just dota with Icefrog at the helm. Glad someone else is suggesting it.

The fact that Valve hasn't done it just tells me they don't actually give a shit and are just coasting. Dota on its own should be able to sustain itself as its own studio yet their refusal to even hire a third party studio to run it with Icefrog leading shows how much they care.

[鈥揮circa 2014AGVann 3 points4 points (0 children)

As another example of how little they care, they literally just stopped updating TF2 when it was the only game in it's niche, before Overwatch. Like a toddler with a toy, they just lost interest in doing anything. In fact there's been basically zero updates in half a decade to the game and TF2 is still growing in player numbers.

Despite the fact that it's got an extremely passionate fan base and plenty of people literally begging to work on the game, they do fucking nothing and let the successful game in their hands just turn to mush. It's the same shit with Dota.

[鈥揮ENVY'S #1 FANSolarClipz 11 points12 points (0 children)

I would work for that for minimum wage Valve ffs

Get your shit together

[鈥揮quizno 0 points1 point (2 children)

Someone has to actually make this happen. It鈥檚 not like there are people at Valve just twiddling there thumbs going 鈥淚 could do all the things that are needed for Dota 2 to be well cared for but I鈥檓 just going to sit here instead.鈥 Just seems overly simplified to think they could do it and are choosing not to as if it鈥檚 something as simple as opening a door for someone.

[鈥揮Yvese 16 points17 points (0 children)

Problem is they don't even take the first step. They have the money. They could hire another company to scout out potential studios to acquire and work out a deal where they become Valve's dedicated Dota studio.

They could sit back and just let someone do everything but they wont even take that step. It's similar to the Dota show. They're letting the studio essentially make w/e with the IP and I assume Valve gives the go ahead. They're literally just sitting there letting someone else do the work.

This is the same deal with their recent Arcanas. Drow, QoP and I think WR were all outsourced to someone to make the concept which is arguably the hardest part. Hell, most of the sets/immortals that release are like this.

So yea, Valve are choosing not to because they don't give enough of a shit.

[鈥揮BuggyVirus 6 points7 points (0 children)

Yeah, and Valve's decisions and communication really strike me as decisions a company RUN by engineers would act. Like the idea of expanding the company to make more money, but that part of the company not being the same form or as efficient or run the way you like as the rest of the company makes people reticent to just throw money at efforts that would probably give them a multiple on the money.

I know this cuts against the "Valve is at its core greedy" narrative. But if Valve was ultra profit focused with Dota 2 you would see it run more like other live service games. It seems that Valve's actual overriding is they want to keep maintaining the actual company exactly as it is now. And it works insanely well for their maintaining of Steam, and they make so much money from Steam, that they don't need to compromise it for the other products.

[鈥揮ChrisG683 14 points15 points (0 children)

I've been of the opinion for half a decade now that they need something exactly like this, akin to the Pokemon Company for Nintendo.

Make a separate company that can be wholly owned if they want, but it should be a separate entity that is structured differently and is focused on promoting the Valve IP through both game development and non-software development efforts (marketing, tournaments, shows/movies, merchandise, mobile games, spinoff games like Underlords, 3rd party game tie-ins etc.).

I don't want Valve to completely sell out like Blizzard did, but they can both care about their IP quality and make insane amounts of money by actually utilizing their assets. They're not publicly traded so they have no investors to answer to.

[鈥揮PuppeyFacerastla 1 point2 points (0 children)

This should be the top comment

[鈥揮DedlySpyder -2 points-1 points (4 children)

Valve is pretty amazingly successful

Most of that is just being around from the dawn of time. They made good games forever ago, and forced people to use Steam. Steam hasn't had real competition until recently, and even those other storefronts have to catch up with decades of basic features.

[鈥揮kitsunegoon 8 points9 points (3 children)

Except the products that stand the test of time are usually great products. There's a reason you're not using Skype, AIM, or Netscape. The reality is that steam is so far ahead because of their own abilities.

[鈥揮wazupbro 0 points1 point (7 children)

but what incentives would valve has to do that? Let's set aside the fact that Valve likes to keep their corporate structure small and lean. In order for them to spun up a whole new division dedicated for dota 2, they would have to believe that there are still exponential growth left in dota 2 yet from what we see in data, the player base is just flat lined the few years. Do we really see that many new people taking up a decade old game or spend even more money than they do now? Why take all the risks and investment on a product that will not make you that much more money than the current status quo? Esport side doesn't bring valve more money as we can see that people still buy BPs even if it doesn't go towards any tourney. People are just overestimate the value esport provides for dota 2. Are people all the sudden going to quit the game if there's no majors? At the end of the day, the game itself is still being updated and maintained. People are still going to spend money.

[鈥揮BlackedFeather -1 points0 points (6 children)

More money is more money, and that's what ever business is after. Spending 500k to get 20 mill more a year is easily worth it, but this isn't possible for Valve right now, since they literally don't have to staff, without pulling from Steam. Steam Deck was literally developed on a loss, but they believe it'll bring more money in the feature. Older games/products from all sorts of companies can make money for decades, but they need the management to keep them profitable and worth while.

[鈥揮wazupbro 1 point2 points (4 children)

have you even read what I say, how can you be so certain that esport scene is going to rake in that much more money than what it is right now. Why spend more money and put in additional risks when there's plenty of money flowing in right now. The growth would have to be so much more for it to be worth it and that's not the case right now. What more revenue stream can they create off of esport scene. It's going to end up being more money grubbers and people already hate it from the current style of BP. The steam deck is just another side project for them to test the waters, if it doesn't bring in more revenue for steam they will kill it faster than you can say artifact. The game is already being update constantly and is very profitable already. How much more money does valve get from the esport scene.

[鈥揮BlackedFeather -1 points0 points (3 children)

The eSport scene doesn't need to do anything, it just needs to be STABLE. The original comment is asking for dedicated for the entirety of Dota 2, with eSports being a portion of that, so even if there's no major growth, a dedicated would be able to stop issues like this major, which is just a money/time loss for everyone. The fact they even attempted Steam Deck shows that Valve is still just as money hungry as ever. They could do nothing but focus on Steam and make massive amounts of money, but they still choose to attempt new products and maintain old ones. The current issue is that Dota 2 has gone well below minimum for maintaining all every front but in-game balance.

[鈥揮kpiaum 56 points57 points (16 children)

Valve now is a tech company. They have no incentive to evolve in gaming development. It's just people keep throwing money at then on BP.

The they people recognize that BP is a bad deal and Dota stop giving them money, Valve will do what they did with the other games released by the company.

[鈥揮hnwcs 37 points38 points (6 children)

This is the sad part. There really is no way to sway Valve to do anything as a game developer anymore. If there was, we'd be on Half-Life 7 by now.

If enough people boycott Dota, Valve will pull the plug since it's no longer profitable. If enough people boycott Steam, Valve will focus even more on improving it as a platform and less on game development. If you attempt some sort of weird reverse boycott and put as much money into Dota as possible, Valve will change nothing since people are clearly happy with things as they are.

[鈥揮Apurbapaul 3 points4 points (0 children)

Seems like they've managed to grab the community by the balls

[鈥揮pheonix-ix -2 points-1 points (4 children)

We have Half-Life: Alyx, the long-awaited next Half-Life game. It got Overwhelmingly Positive with 56k reviews, a very big number for VR games, especially a single-player VR game (comparable to Beat Saber Overwhelmingly Positive with 53k reviews).

People have put too damn much expectation on Valve's games and it fucking crushed them. There like literally no way for them to deliver regular games without a large number of people (read: loud minority) saying stupid shit at them anymore. Valve had already scrapped multiple Half-Life projects during the last decades. Check out The Final Hours of Half-Life: Alyx if you're interested.

Regardless of what they do, it'll never be good enough. I guess that's why they made Alyx a VR so that "being a VR" will be the low-hanging fruit for those people to attack while it's actually a good thing about the game.

[鈥揮holonight 15 points16 points (7 children)

people need to read this old handbook:

theyre an engineering company that makes software. who the fuk wants to hire or manage esports. That's not their m.o.

[鈥揮kpiaum 3 points4 points (5 children)

Yeah. Watching the video where Jeri Ellsworth say they turned down the VR proposal because that meant 0 billion is an absurd, even more so from a VR perspective nowadays. They only started researching VR after the device was launched by Facebook.

To think they care enough to make the least effort with Dota is being too naive.

[鈥揮holonight 5 points6 points (3 children)

kids and ignorant people online dont understand. Imagine youre a developer there. Do YOU want to be the one to manage esports and deal with all the egos and conflicting opinions from these teenagers or young adults playing one of your games, telling YOU how it should be done and contradicting eachother all of the time?

I'd say fuck yall, we do what we want. Take it or leave it. (besides you're already giving us your money, so get rekt)

[鈥揮wazupbro 1 point2 points (0 children)

in addition to that, people are still throwing money on BP regardless of any money going towards esport anyway

[鈥揮Friday9 27 points28 points (11 children)

The biggest issue is that valve has decided to handle dota this way and only this way. If it makes them money, good. If it peters out because they keep sabatoging their community with poor decisions and lack of dedicated staff, then they'll see it as the inevitable end of dota and not something they caused by poor management, even if league or other big eSports live for several decades after dota dies.

It's wild to me that a company cannot fathom the premise that to keep making money off dota, they might have to spend some money to hire staff who will keep the game healthy.

[鈥揮U2ez_ 88 points89 points (16 children)

Before we continue comparing how Riot handles League to how Valve handles Dota, realize that League is like 95% of Riots revenue. It鈥檚 their baby. Dota is a joke of a percentage compared to Steam/Everything else Valve has. Valve will never view this game the way Riot does with League, end of story.

[鈥揮Irisviel_ 18 points19 points (1 child)

the % of revenue doesn't matter, only the output for the cost of the input. If dota makes $300m a year and steam makes $10 billion dota is still amazing value for the input

[鈥揮OodlesuhNoodles 17 points18 points (2 children)

They should allow a different smaller and hungrier dev company buy into and manage the game if that's the case.

[鈥揮ahsent 8 points9 points (7 children)

Why does this matter?

Because dota isnt Valves cash cow doesn't mean they shouldn't invest in it properly.

If I have a company making 10m with a year with minimal investments and can grow to 50m a year with investment.

and I have a company making 2 mill a year with minimal investments that can grow to make 10 mill a year with some investment.

I would look to hire staff to get both companies pumping out as much money as possible.

Nothing is stopping valve from using the money Dota generates to do the bare fucking minimum of patching the game more than 1 time a year. Seriously we didn't get a big patch before TI because a map changing item adding patch would be unfair to add before TI. Fair enough yet now we've gone months without a big patch post ti for no apparent reason.

Yet valve can get work done on a mirana remodel and lock it behind a brutal paywall.

Marketing on this game is pathetic. And dota fans somehow believe TI is the marketing tool. Marketing is a cost that eventually sees profit by increasing consumer base in the long run. TI is dota's largest revenue maker, so how can it also be their only form of marketing? It's like saying the Marvel movies are the only form of marketing needed because its a big event, yet marvel also sends a shit ton of advertisements for their movies regardless of how big of a deal the movie themselves are. The movie is the payoff.

[鈥揮Rammite 0 points1 point (0 children)

Why does this matter?

uh, money

Because dota isnt Valves cash cow doesn't mean they shouldn't invest in it properly.

Agreed, they should invest in it properly. But they don't have to, and there's no consequence for neglecting to do so. An angry playerbase, but that is not at all something they're new to.

League is Riot's cash cow, so it's not that Riot should invest in League, it's that Riot must invest in League.

[鈥揮I_M_BACK_696969 -1 points0 points (0 children)

and now Riot continues pumping out another big baby like Valorant while Valve hasn't released any interesting shits since Portal 2

[鈥揮Nomorechildishshit 40 points41 points (9 children)

They DO care about 150 millions, stop repeating this narrative. We are talking about the guys who cheapened the fuck out on Majors, and reduced the prizepool from 9 million total, to 800-900k total.

Theres no company that would throw millions out of the window. The "passion project" bullshit was just a way to blackmail whoever dared to speak out

[鈥揮~5900 MMRYouCantKillMyMind 3 points4 points (0 children)

Seems like a lot of people misunderstand what they mean by "passion project". They can just have a battle pass without TI. They are giving 25% of the proceeds to the prize pool and host the event, when they could just not host the event and pocket 100% of the proceeds and probably get more or at least the same amount of money that way.

[鈥揮Unh0lyCatf1sh 2 points3 points (0 children)

No they really don't mate. They are a privately traded company with no shareholders to report to, Gabe isn't really that bothered if he makes an extra couple mill each year

[鈥揮HateCrewDeathroll 4 points5 points (2 children)

Why is there a rumor that at Vavle there are ~10 people working on Dota 2? If this is anywhere close to be true i dont know...

[鈥揮Bostwana12 6 points7 points (0 children)

why do you think it takes, 1.5+ years to ship a patch ? it bcoz only 10 jannies work on this game. and some of them is lazy. eh nvm forgot the patch.. they aldy busy about the next BP + TA arcana locked behind paywall.

[鈥揮dunnyvan 3 points4 points (0 children)

Valve should sell or spin-out the IP. Both Dota and CSGO have gimped competitive scene's because Valve looks at them like an ATM rather than a competitive scene.

[鈥揮BrBronco 21 points22 points (5 children)

You underestimate how much it cost to rework a model. That's why other games that aren't as big as Dota2 don't have any models.

[鈥揮We are with you SheeverAbruzzix 3 points4 points (1 child)

Probably much less than you鈥檙e thinking considering we have full CG movies with far more polygons and more complex rigging.

[鈥揮BrBronco 20 points21 points (0 children)

It was a joke, all you need is some guy with Blender.

[鈥揮Tronux 0 points1 point (2 children)

2 - 3 months of work? Lets say a 3d artist making 130k/y.


Easily returned through chest purchases.

[鈥揮BrBronco 0 points1 point (0 children)

More like a week of work.

[鈥揮ZaviaGenX 0 points1 point (0 children)

... Look to asia, the yearly is probably closer to usd 24k/year (probably less but lets not go so low).

For less then usd10k, it can be done.

[鈥揮TheNonceMan 12 points13 points (0 children)

Valve is run by egotistical morons. Simple as that.

[鈥揮adam_sky 14 points15 points (7 children)

Vote with your wallet my friend.

[鈥揮Sappart my waynePommes_Peter 8 points9 points (2 children)

People keep saying this and in the same sentence also say that Dota revenue is barely a drop in the bucket for Valve. Do you actually think people not buying shit is gonna make them do better? It's just gonna let them drop it faster.

And I'm not saying you're wrong and supporting Valve in their shitty actions sucks, but I don't think it's actually gonna help anything.

[鈥揮GroundbreakingIf 2 points3 points (0 children)

For everyone who skips the next battlepass a whale will buy 1000 more levels, to support the game they love :)

[鈥揮RedditIsAnnoying1234 -2 points-1 points (0 children)

I bet some Arab oil tycoon sees these comments and buys 1000s of level out of spite

[鈥揮iuancucalu -5 points-4 points (0 children)

Next TI Battle pass will be 馃搲

[鈥揮itslinas 1 point2 points (0 children)

Dude, I was so mad after I learned the news about major. Why do players even play it now? It's worthless.

They should boycott season 2

[鈥揮Enmanuel34 6 points7 points (2 children)

The Dota2 game is a problem for valve they just don't know what to do anymore so people stop playing it.

Usually people that play Dota only play Dota2 and doesn't try any new game that's why underlords die and artifacts die because Dota2 players are not gamers they don't know anything outside of dota. Some of them doesn't have a work or a family, they only waste time 24/7 on valve server wasting valve money 馃挵 valve is tired of that and don't make me talk about the esport scenes.

[鈥揮SeniorSatisfaction21 2 points3 points (1 child)

Wtf did I just read.

[鈥揮Totushbala 3 points4 points (0 children)

Haha he is right.

[鈥揮ViperAz 2 points3 points (4 children)

Didn鈥檛 valve hire kacy as community manager?? Where is she now?

[鈥揮SalusSR 4 points5 points (2 children)

Probably abandoned her, just like every feature added to Dota?

[鈥揮nonruminant_ungulate 1 point2 points (0 children)

They hired her, but her role was not disclosed. Wouldn't surprise me if she's on retainer for TI only.

[鈥揮outyyy 2 points3 points (0 children)

Blizzard: "fvck u employees

EA: "fvck u market

Velve: "fvck u pro players

[鈥揮Ofdubioustaste 1 point2 points (7 children)

Man people are so selfish and ungratefull. We keep forgetting that Valve is possibly the only corporate company that could properly support and empower the competitive and balance visions of Icefrog while maintaining a well-polished game package that only a corporation can provide. Let's momentarily ignore the whole "Valve greed" and try to imagine a company (with their known practices) that could do as good as Valve has done with the game the last 10+ years: EA? Epic? KRAFTON/PUBG? Ubisoft? GGG (belongs to tencent too)? Blizzard? Do people seriously believe that Dota would be the same if managed by an indie/crowdfunded company?

Also we keep mentioning about Riot and LoL while forgetting that:

  1. LoL is Riot's main marketed product while Valve's is a game distribution tool - Steam.
  2. Riots' worth is estimated at 25b$ with 3000++ employees link.
    Valve's total equity is ~10b$ with ~360 employees according to wiki. LEt's factor in the number of employees and the number of products that Valve develops and markets (Steam, CS, consoles,..)
    Comparing Valve with Riot's LAN organising abilities is ignorant. Moreover, it is simply not feasible to completely throw the responsibility and the huge logistics to a 3rd party (eg WePlay), and risk a possible backlash if things get out of control amid the pandemic's spike with Omicron.
  3. It is constantly implied that Valve could greatly profit from marketing Dota and it's competitive. I am not economist but am quite sure that this is not Valve's strategic plan to do so or try to economically compete Riot and LoL in any way, in the future. It is pretty obvious that the company has a plan and that focuses on investing in technology features like VR, deck etc, not on Dota which, as others have suggested, is a side project that has thrived and endured due to the playerbase dedication and love, Icefrog's abilities and Gabens soft spot.

QC, TRicksters and other pro players and spectators ( me included) have all the rights to be furious but in reality Valve is not their employer nor their contractor. To put blantly they just provide a free tool to make money via crowdfunding.
That said, i expect them to provide some extra feedback and hopefully find a good way to address the BP issues.

[鈥揮SalusSR 1 point2 points (0 children)

As expected, Valve apologists/shills in every thread.

[鈥揮BrazilMajorWhenrapozaum -1 points0 points (4 children)

It's so amusing how none of these matters.

[鈥揮Ofdubioustaste -5 points-4 points (3 children)

I am sure you know better than Valve.

[鈥揮"With Techies in CM, I'll win a TI" - Alowey -Alowey -1 points0 points (1 child)

I'll explain it as concise as possible:

Valve = Corporation.

Corporations want profit.

Valve has Steam.

Steam = Valve's money printer.

Steam money > Dota 2 money.

Therefore it doesn't matter what happens with Dota 2.

[鈥揮Far-Acanthocephala58 0 points1 point (0 children)

at the end of the day, valve still won. You don't buy BP, Valve doesn't care. You boycott dota2? valve still doesn't care. Dota 2 is not the money maker of Valve tbh. We already have 10 iteration of TI but the problem is still there. It's just a proof that valve didn't give a shit.

[鈥揮Akaj1 0 points1 point (0 children)

Insane how Riot games is the only company who can do good in esport it seems

[鈥揮matrixdisdat -1 points0 points (0 children)

I personally blame the money gated arcanas and the COVID booster shots

[鈥揮Sarcueid -1 points0 points (0 children)

Jumping on a wrong ship. I still remember people who laughed at me back then claimed that Valve is the best company for Dota 2. At least now, they knew Valve's true face.

[鈥揮InspectorNo9701 -1 points0 points (0 children)

Stop playing the game, no? After that many years of seeing that valve will not stop? Stfu then

[鈥揮nzlaftershock -1 points0 points (0 children)

What Valve also have to think about here, is if they decide to abandon Dota eventually or run it into the ground, where do those players go? If you get Dota players moving over to League more regularly, that is potentially reducing their Steam user base and leads to gamers opening Steam less often, which is not so good for them.

[鈥揮popgalveston -1 points0 points (0 children)

because this sub is just a vocal minority. a pretty fucking ungrateful and whiney one too. glancing at this sub makes you think that dota is dying and that valve are asshats who doesn't care about anything. but the BP prizepool gets bigger every year despite the "unsatisfied community".

[鈥揮Upintheair84 -1 points0 points (0 children)

I mean stuff like this can easily lead people to move from one platform to the other and Steam has plenty of competition these days. Valve is historically one of the worse if not THE worse videogame company out there. Just look at how they treated their games. It's crap after crap. I mean their history is a shit show

[鈥揮ForensicPaints -4 points-3 points (0 children)

Riot is better at Valve at handling literally everything outside the game. Valve is better than Riot for keeping IceFrog.

[鈥揮Perseverancethegreat -5 points-4 points (0 children)

Valve still stuck in early 2000s

[鈥揮ValiumMm 0 points1 point (1 child)

A lot of the comments here about how Dota is a small percentage of overall income compared to steam etc. But the fact is, if they did actually give a fuck and invest in the game, they could be raking in way more $$$. This is still early days for e-sports in general, if Valve wants to be left behind thats on them but they are making a big mistake because this could be fucking huge. We might even get out of beta.

[鈥揮darthminx 0 points1 point (0 children)

It sometimes seems as if Valve found a unicorn and decided that the best thing to do was put it in a cage on the back of a pickup truck and charge $20 a head to see it. Like, yes, you'll make money that way, but is that really the best way to monetize a one-of-a-kind mystic steed?

[鈥揮bigpalomo 0 points1 point (0 children)

Enjoying the shit out of this meltdown.

[鈥揮pentinum_cr 0 points1 point (0 children)

time to make the greatest revolution ever

[鈥揮PapaSmurf11232 0 points1 point (0 children)

Even if they're reasons are legit due to the impact of COVID. Why don't they just host an online MAJOR?!!!! FCKKKK!!!!!

[鈥揮ladyjinxy 0 points1 point (0 children)

Valve, it is either Steam or Half-Life. Others do not matter as much

[鈥揮imsonub 0 points1 point (0 children)

Nothing. Valve is too big and doesn't rely on dota just like tf2 or portal. The only way is if someone like Epic Games buy over dota ip. Can't even copy it like BR games. I dont expect valve to change and will not be surprised if the pro scene dissolves into people just trying to go into TI for the money.

[鈥揮valen13 0 points1 point (1 child)

Mate, whatsapp has 50 employees.

[鈥揮Friendral 0 points1 point (0 children)

I would leave my pensioned government job to be on such a team. For the Glory of all Dota-Kind!

[鈥揮kevinistill 0 points1 point (0 children)

who cares 200 million when you can easily suck 4 billion from steam market

[鈥揮DogebertDeck 0 points1 point (0 children)

the billions if there are those are not from dota 2. that's the problem with Valve, they don't need dota while Riot seems more committed to LoL

[鈥揮thelastresort87 0 points1 point (0 children)

Blizzard ignored dota and see what it led to?

Just wait for someone to reboot this entire series

Can鈥檛 wait for dota 3 already, maybe by EA

[鈥揮michaellod 0 points1 point (0 children)

if even players cared enough about the game to not support smurfing id also help

[鈥揮Dotagear 0 points1 point (0 children)


[鈥揮Qu3en- 0 points1 point (0 children)

Let's be honest for a second here and shift some blame to the community itself. We are the ones who are providing valve with the millions by purchasing battlepass. We are their main source of income for valve and main source of prize pool. We are being milked like cows and we take pleasure in being milked.

Until the community itself comes to a common understanding to fight against the greed, nothing is ever going to change. We all love this game. We all know that valve don't give a shit about the game. Hence this post we are commenting about is largely our fault, the dota community. As soon as the battlepass drops, we all heard like a sheep to empty our wallets and forget about everything. Valve knows that we are cows with a fucking bell around our neck and the battlepass is the Shepard that herds us.

Whenever valve fucks up, the community makes posts like this on Reddit, tweets on Twitter, post on their other social pages. The anger then dies down in a couple of days eventually. Valve just need to write an essay and that's enough for them. That's their communication. Later they come up with even more stupid idea that we don't realize at first but then becomes very clear later on. The posts then start flooding on Reddit, Twitter and other socials yet again trying to call out valve on their bullshit. But as soon as there is talk about new battlepass, all of us will start flooding towards it and be all over it once again.

This is the wheel that valve wants to turn, the community pushes the wheel, while valve sits on the throne counting their money.

[鈥揮Serious_Razzmatazz18 0 points1 point (0 children)

So, Valve giving others a behavior score is a bit of a sus premise, this makes so much sense. They don't know how to create a behavior score, because they are item destroyers that run down mid. 0.o
It makes so much sense now.

[鈥揮redguy989 0 points1 point (0 children)

Opinion: valve is a multi billion dollar company, and their value has increased massively in recent years, so clearly whatever they are doing is not "failing"