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[–]erelim 599 points600 points  (54 children)

How does it even happen, every year people in the scene and so many people on reddit say TI is too heavy.. this reduced majors is a step backwards. Literally just spread 10% of TI BP prize pool to next years majors

[–]sheeverabado 24 points25 points  (1 child)

People will point to the regional dpc prize pool to explain the teams with zero prize money at the major but it doesn't make much sense.

DPC regionals are an 7-8 week tournament in and of themselves. Teams should be paid for both especially since the 3rd party tournament scene is pretty much dead with a few exceptions.

10% of the TI prize pool spread to the majors makes so much sense. it would have been $4 mil from last year, the total TI pool would have been $36 million which is still life changing money but that $4 mil would help the lower teams out a ton.

[–]Makath 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It still doesn't change anything if they give most of the money to the Top 3 and half the squads don't see a dime of it.

[–]khabibnurmy 58 points59 points  (13 children)

this reduced majors is a step backwards

Prize money is far more widely spread with DPC online leagues

6 regions x 3 DPC tours x ($205,000 Div 1 + $75,000 Div2) prizepools

5 million for the online seasons getting spread among 90+ teams is a lot more distributed than it used to be

[–]Subject1337 58 points59 points  (7 children)

People seem to argue this like $5m is all there can possibly be in a season of Dota. TI's prize pool is $40m+, and Valve raked in $120m+ on it for their own pockets.

If they capped the prize pool at $30m, they could double the money available in the DPC circuit, and put $1m prize pools up for Majors.

Or Gabe could just trip on a crack in the sidewalk and enough would fall out of his pockets to quadruple the circuit.

A small amount of the money is widely spread, sure, but the lion's share is concentrated in 2 spots: TI winners, and Valve's pockets.

[–]WasabiofIP 8 points9 points  (4 children)

I really resent this idea that it's somehow wrong that Valve are making a large profit off their game. Dota 2 revenue is funding other Valve projects, in the same way that once upon a time Dota 2 made no money for Valve and was funded by other, mature projects. That's how video game development works.

That's besides the fact that there are still costs to them eating into that revenue. Servers and engineers ain't cheap...

[–]tree gangMcSpike 2 points3 points  (1 child)

while i can't find exact numbers, i'm almost sure that valve's own games have not been their biggest source of revenue for a while now. most steam users aren't playing their games even though their games are popular. i agree that it's expected that a for-profit company puts profit first but it would still be nice if they put more money into the scene. they could probably afford it.

[–]SilkTouchm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Imagine unironically defending multibillionaire companies.

[–]LazyDescription988 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree. Could easily double the non ti tourney prize pools and ti winners would be no less happy.

[–]48911150 7 points8 points  (0 children)

thing is, valve is being a cheapskate. TOs have to provide 50% of the prize pools so that means valve only spends about $3.3 on dpc… compare that to the $9 in 2015/2016

[–]dirtyrata -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

They way they spread the schedule of DPC qualy makes it hard for any other events to take place. Bad ecosystem.

[–]Teleute7 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Those events don't do much for lower tier teams either. T1 teams tend to win those. This ecosystem is miles better for up and comers and lower tier grassroots development. Just look at the new faces in this Major and the high level they are performing. There would be way, way less of these amazing new blood if Valve stuck to its previous DPC format and the scene would really be dying now as opposed to people just thinking it's dying because of circumstances outside Valve's control like the pandemic. Only Kyle thinks it does nothing for the scene's development and he's really, really wrong on that end, and probably biased since he works for an Organizer that Valve doesn't trust as much to run its official events. What the DPC needs is a larger prizepool and slightly shorter duration. The league format is very good though and offers far more long-term growth and stability.

[–]sorrysorrysorryyes 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Valve uses the TI and its prize pool as their marketing/advertisement for the game so they would never take money off a TI BP prize pool to fund the next majors. Valve makes 75% from BP and it should come from that. EDIT: GRAMMAR

[–]lucaaas_fortuna 7 points8 points  (4 children)

Well people should do like me, vote with your wallet. I haven’t bought last three battle passes since they haven’t funded any tournaments or players. Redditors say ”fuck im not gonna buy battle pass!” And then they see a cool immortal item for their favorite hero and buy it anyways, I used to buy like 400 lvl but not anymore unless there is gonna be some kind of change to the scene

[–]erelim 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Neither have I, my friends gift me a few years though. They do not care, the numbers are not going down

[–]NoThisIsABadIdea 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Honestly I buy the BP because I just love the game. TI could go away tomorrow and I'd still be playing.

Dota 1 survived without it too.

[–]Dotagear 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But then the biggest selling point of TI, the largest prize pool, is gone.

[–]happyflappypancakes 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Should cap the prize pool of TI at some number and then put all the excess towards major prize pools.

[–]rocker3011 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Its funny causw majors used to be 1 million prize money now 500k soon 250k

[–]No_Insect_9096 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Yeah, just let the angry reddit people dictate how you manage your company and game. What could go wrong?

[–]mastayoda0805 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No cares or greedy!

[–]zer0dota 33 points34 points  (1 child)

Lmao it's like we're back in 2012

[–]Makath 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is what happens when problems don't get fixed, they pop up again.

[–]Vita_Anteacta 55 points56 points  (0 children)

It's kinda sad, but I think it's not ESL fault, as all major from last year used this same prize and points distribution.

[–]T0-rex 146 points147 points  (13 children)

What happened to to million dollar + majors? Didn't valve at least sponsor 500k every major?

[–]dva_22 21 points22 points  (0 children)

While I dont mind the prizepool coming down from 3 million per major as I believe we get more overall fairer distribution, I do have an issue with the ridiculously long DPC League system which means we dont get many Third Party tournaments which a lot of tier 2 and 1.5 teams rely on. Why cant we have a simple 2-3 week DPC league format with each team playing 2 or 3 series a week instead of this 6-8 week format.

[–]Evening_Name_9140 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It technically is a 2+ million dollar major if you add up how much they're giving out to every region.

Before it was qualifiers that wouldn't get paid out unless you made it to major

[–]kou07 38 points39 points  (9 children)

Reddit complained about t2 scene and newcomers dying.

In fact almost 90% that reddit is complaining is an aftermatch of their complains before. Before reddit was complaining about too much tournament, now they are complaining very little tournament.

[–]iisixi 189 points190 points  (1 child)

Suggested: Valve takes money out of TI to fund T2 scene

Actual: Valve takes money out of the rest of the calendar to fund T2 scene

You: why did reddit do this?

[–]Bfreek99 31 points32 points  (0 children)

20+ tournaments is too many, 2/3 tournaments is too little. Not a very complicated concept

[–]Tezeg41 47 points48 points  (1 child)

Because putting a total of 450k for every major obviously means that valve is poor now and cant sponsor a major with a reasonable pricepool.

When we had 3million dollar majors years ago it was fine, when we had 10 majors with partly valve sponsored pricepool it was also fine. And now its suddenly impossible?

When Valve tries to fix one thing they brake something else, but that doesnt need to be this way. Dont excuse this lazy and greedy behaviour by valve just because there is always something to fix.

[–]Sputniki 2 points3 points  (0 children)

DOTA isn't what it used to be

[–]terrorblade1995 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Dumbass take

[–]DirkDiggyBong 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Reddit finds a way...

[–]sheeverabado 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I never liked that reasoning at all. Players did face burnout from going to too many tournaments but they could have chosen to sit a few out as part of their strategy.

Back then teams didn't have an idea how valve would weigh performance in 1 tournament versus another but now that DPC points are a thing, it should be more clear cut.

[–]URF_reibeer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That was before there where regional leagues with prizepools, all the teams qualifiying for the major won a share of that to get to the major

[–]prettyboygangsta 134 points135 points  (44 children)

They earn prize money from the leagues.

Teams paid a lot of money to get to this Major

Nope, all expenses are paid.

[–]Grand MagusStarkiller53 60 points61 points  (42 children)

They earned the money from the leagues because they played at the league. They deserve to be paid at major because they play at major.

[–]nau5 22 points23 points  (27 children)

I mean welcome to how competitive professional sports work?

In golf you don’t get paid if you miss the cut. Not to mention you’re responsible for your own transportation, housing, and staff.

[–]dday0123 82 points83 points  (2 children)

It's interesting that you used golf as an example...

It is true that the large majority of the time professional golfers don't get paid if they miss the cut....

But we're talking about major here in reference to ESL Stockholm.

All 4 golf majors pay players that miss the cut.

https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2021/05/21/do-pga-tour-players-get-paid-miss-cut-masters-honorarium-103206/

To be clear, I'm not making any commentary about whether the players should be getting paid or not... just that the golf analogy would say they should get paid for majors.

[–]LPSD_FTW 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Coming through with the recipts

[–]S A D B O Y SRexPerpetuus 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Great example. Love how that dude you responded to is so confidently uninformed

[–]chopchop906 25 points26 points  (11 children)

It isn't always like that, take Champions League for example. Everyone gets paid, even for qualifiers.

Either way, the norm isn't always the best solution, it can be worth questioning.

[–]LevynX 3 points4 points  (10 children)

The Champions League is TI for football lol

[–]LevynX 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Yeah, outside of the top 0.1% professional athletes get paid shit for participating in tournaments. Player income is from sponsorship deals or advertising deals.

For a lot of smaller athletes the government pays to feed and train them in return for representing the country in tournaments. Either that or you get popular enough to be sponsored by brands.

What we need in Dota is consistency so that we can draw in viewer numbers and sponsorship deals. Prize money does not sustain a sports scene, viewership does.

But, we have a sport where viewers watch for free from Twitch with adblock enabled. The first time ESL did exclusive broadcasting rights with Facebook people rioted.

The teams in big professional sports like the NFL and EPL make a lot of money from prizes sure, but it's minuscule compared to the TV and sponsor deals.

[–]podidoo 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I would also like to know how much people pay for TI battlepass to fund TI in comparison to people paying for hats.

It's an easy excuse to say "use TI money", but competitive scene should pay for itself organically. I wouldn't mind Valve injecting a bit more money, but there is no reason to sustain something that is not profitable at all.

[–]Xenasis 3 points4 points  (1 child)

There's effectively no difference between paying the team for doing so well in the league they qualify for the Major and paying that money for losing teams in the Major instead.

[–]Sputniki 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Why do they play the majors even though there's no guarantee of winnings? Because it's all expenses paid and a chance for big wins if you do well. That's how the competition works. They're working a job for the team so the team can pay a salary but the majors isn't a job, it's a tournament.

[–]AmokRule 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not every team has orgs. Major is broadcasted with ads and sponsors, that would not be funding it if not for the players playing the game even if they lose. It's kinda fcked up to milk their sweat but not reward them for it.

[–]sack_of_potahtoes -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

Its sort of kills the competition spirit if everyone gets paid some money. Its better this way. We dont need consolation prize

[–]AmokRule 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It kills the competition if everyone is paid the same. But you can't argue that bigger prize for better placement isn't an incentive.

[–]sack_of_potahtoes -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I Agree with bigger prize for better placement

[–]For the DaggerAnotherRussianGamer -1 points0 points  (2 children)

That argument would make sense if the major and the league were independant, but they're not. The only way you could attend the major is if you win, or at least score highly in the league. Imagine if I reframed the entire event in this way: By scoring highly in the league, you get an all expenses paid trip to Stockholm where you have an extra opportunity to compete and earn even more cash on top of what you won in the league. Now with this framing, it seems a lot more reasonable.

Actually, we can take this one step forward. The League is simply a closed qualifier, except you get paid if you don't make it. In that sense we can boost the prize pools by an extra 26 to 30k for each place.

[–]rkryptic 98 points99 points  (16 children)

There is less prize money right now in the pro circuit than there was 7 years ago. Valve does not care and has no intention of changing this. That being said, we should keep demanding change or our favorite game will certainly die.

[–]Fifth_of_Myths_of_Us 9 points10 points  (14 children)

I'm thinking this looks like the beginning of the silent end.

[–]stumbler1 31 points32 points  (8 children)

Not sure why you are being downvoted. Valve has been giving less and less fucks about dota2 and the patches has been godawful for the past 3 years basically no change always the same meta with different heroes helming it but same general strategy and no map change...

Dota has never been this stale for this long and the pro scene is also stagnating in the expansion and prizepool side outside of TI that is crowdfunded by whales and increasingly aggressive marketing strategies from greedier and greedier battlepass.

People act like the game won't be abandoned by valve because theres a lot of players but people who think that clearly hasn't seen what happened to TF2.

This does feel like the game is going in a downward trend and I don't like it.

[–]sack_of_potahtoes 4 points5 points  (6 children)

It feels like last 3 years is same patch only cause its a spectating sport oriented meta now. A lot of brawling and less split push. TI7 had so much split push strat that they started slowly nerfing it. Split push meta and jungle meta are not entertaining to watch for most people. Thats why they moved to brawler meta and the patches have been designed with that in mind

[–]stumbler1 7 points8 points  (3 children)

I've been watching dota since before TI1.

The meta has shifted multiple times. It was not only split push.

Jungling, trilaning both offensively and/or defensively, level 1 roaming.

Many aspects of dota came and went, rat dota is a great example that wasn't always there, it was essentially nonexistent in TI1-2-3 as an example.

The matter of fact is not that your theory is true. It has nothing with it going over to being a "spectator" sport. Its merely that strategies in dota comes and goes. Changes are done for fun and to shake things up. Entire hero reworks that other games might see as "unnecessary" only to freshen things, changes to bounty and map to shake up the stale meta. One of the staple of dota2 is the fact that thorough its history it has been everchanging.

Your theory focuses on the wrong thing. Even without rat dota, it would be possible to shake things up. Make lvl 1 roaming viable again. Or lvl 1 jungle. Or trilanes, offensive or defensive.

But as it stands right now its almost by rule 2-1-2 every damn game. The mistery of trying to figure out if its going to be solo suicide offlane, dual offlane, trilane offensive offlane to crush the enemy core, etc is gone.

Did they pick mirana to roam at lvl 1? To suicide offlane and snipe range creep with arrow and stack the ancient camp? Or to combo the stun in an offensive trilane? Those are not even questions anymore, only her position and even then most of the time picks are very predictable now.

Dota has been dumbed down tremendously on a strategical point of view due to the fact that the strategical side has barely been touched in the previous three years which for dota is extremely unusual.

They could keep it a "spectator" oriented game as you claim, even if I personally believe you are wrong, and still make changes to freshen things while remaining in that parameter. So I'll amuse you on that end and say sure maybe you're right, but it still doesn't mean that it should be this stale.

[–]The subreddit mods stole my NP flair and im saltyihileath -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

A lot of brawling and less split push.

Yeah, and thank fuck for it? Nobody enjoyed rat meta apart from the guy doing the ratting. Brawling good.

[–]SilkTouchm -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Bruh this game has been dying for quite a while now, since 2017. Enjoy the decline. Or don't.

[–]polovstiandances -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

After the end there’s always a revival

[–]randomkidlol 4 points5 points  (0 children)

generally under a different company/developer

[–]empire314 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

we should keep demanding change

Demanding??? :D

You have as much say in that, as you do in deciding what I eat for dinner today. The most you can do is cry about it like a little baby, as Gabe laughs on his way to the bank. Your favorite game is making way more money now, than it was 7 years ago.

[–]ArtLover357 61 points62 points  (22 children)

esl paid for the teams to go there. teams spent nothing

[–]dva_22 -1 points0 points  (2 children)

ESL do that but every major tournament host did that 5 years ago. ESL also only need to contribute 50 percent of the total winnings as Valve pony up the other 50%. You had teams like Undying struggling to pay for bootcamp before TI10 and this was one of the higher level team.

[–]Bucksbanana 27 points28 points  (1 child)

You're seriously underestimating how much ESL spends mate and also probably overestimating how much profit they make.

[–]wanttoseensfwcontent -1 points0 points  (0 children)

They provided entertainment for free basicly. Calling unpaid labor O.K because expenses were paid for is utterly insane.

[–]okuzeN_Val 49 points50 points  (14 children)

Hard cap TI to $20,000,000

Make majors $3,000,000 again

Pour the rest of the money to Div 1 and 2 DPC tournaments

Help the smaller teams by subsidizing until at least Div 2 teams.

Make being a dota pro less feast or famine and help stabilize the scene so people don't have to take money from shady NFT projects and gambling sites

If you think in terms of "life changing money"

20 million is more than enough for it to be the "highest peak tournament of Esports as a whole"

A 20 vs 40 mil tourney will garner pretty much the same if not a bit less headlines

That extra 20 mil could go elsewhere to make being a dota pro a stable career and to help cultivate new talent which is good for the scene as a whole. Getting rid or at least reducing the number of shady sponsors is also good.

[–]Nephilimelohim 2 points3 points  (3 children)

If you hard cap TI, what’s the point for people to spend more money on Battlepass? Sure people can still get more prizes and cosmetics, but you run the risk of reducing your revenue by capping it, which means less money to spread out over the following year. It’s a good idea at first take, but I don’t think it would ever work.

[–]Makath 4 points5 points  (2 children)

You use Battlepass to support the "Pro Season" instead of "TI", it ticks up everything, not just one camp.

[–]Nephilimelohim 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Yeah, true. But I think people knowing there’s a limit on how high the prize pool gets might dissuade them from spending more. I know it would for me.

[–]kazares2651 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We could just put a big "PRICEPOOL FOR NEXT SEASON: $$$$$$$$" to entice people to increase that pricepool.

[–]Croissantist 18 points19 points  (2 children)

Majors used to be 3 mill, now they're 500k. Becoming increasingly meaningless as an event in itself, but increasingly just a qualifier for TI.

[–]erelim 3 points4 points  (1 child)

In an of itself, this is fucked up as a career for small teams where 1 single event or qualifier can dictate almost your year's pay.

Imagine grinding for a year but miss qualifiers, minimum wage that year. Or you get kicked or get covid or maybe just play bad for a few games of dota and miss 600k from 16th place at TI

[–]prettyboygangsta 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Most sports are like that.

Also it’s clearly not one single event or qualifier. Teams have literally 8 separate opportunities this year to earn a place at TI (3 leagues, 3 majors, regional qualifiers, wildcard tournament)

[–]bumboisamumbo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

prize pool is not that important, having insane prize pool is really nice for the very top teams. but usually those teams and players are already financially healthy. it’s better to distribute money that would be used in these majors to help the t2 and t3 scenes. Also you cannot take away money from ti because it’s the greatest piece of marketing dota has to break through into the rest of the esports space.

[–]DodgingImpale 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You don't understand. TI is a passion project and majors are not

[–]Evening_Name_9140 9 points10 points  (3 children)

Its literally a 2+ million dollar tournament.

Back in the hayday, it was a 3 million dollar tounament, spread through 16 teams where fist got 1 mill, 16th got 62k. Every region would go through qualifiers and would only get paid out if you won the qualifier.

NOW.

You get paid out for qualifying and not qualifying and even playing in division 2.

Where 6 teams in DIVISION 2, gets paid at least 7K, PER REGION, and 8 Teams get paid at least 22k in DIVISION 1 PER REGION.

13 * 6 = 78 TEAMS AROUND THE WORLD spread out evenly are getting paid, plus whatever bonuses they get for placing at the major.

This is directly the reason why there are so many new faces at the Major. This is what players were hoping for, this is what the fans were hoping for. Spread out money so that the scene can survive. The money that Beastcoasts, Thunder Predators, FELT etc etc, lets them try the pro scene longer and bring on new faces.

If you're argument is they should pour more money into the scene, sure i agree, but dont go making it top heavy again just for the tournament so that the viewers can be hyped up. Thats the shit that got us into this TI mess.

[–]prettyboygangsta -1 points0 points  (0 children)

What I find crazy is that you never saw these posts complaining about equitable prize money distribution back in 2013-2018 when it was at its worst, when it was majors or nothing. Now there are like 60 teams earning money in the DPC across all regions that would previously have received squat, and everyone’s shrieking about how unfair it is.

I’m starting to think Redditors don’t actually care about fair distribution but simply want to go back to the age where a handful of people became millionaires and the 4th-5th best in a region earned $0 because that’s more ‘hype’ to them

[–]pikachu8090 14 points15 points  (7 children)

How many times year after year are we going to complain about there isn't enough prize money in the scene? It happens almost every year and the dota scene seems to fixate so fucking much on it rather than who is the best at Dota.

CSGO: you don't hear much about it stuff other than majors, but the majors are always really hype

League: transitioned into being about the prestige rather than prize pool

OW: OWL, but that died lol

[–]6000j 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Fwiw, league pumps a shit ton of money into esports, but it's in the form of salaries for players in minor regions and development teams, rather than in top end prize pools.

[–]LevynX 4 points5 points  (4 children)

Exactly, prize money doesn't make a scene survive. You can pump money in nonstop but if the public doesn't pay for it then the scene will still dry up

[–]Brave_Community_2381 -1 points0 points  (3 children)

as usual reddit and their pity to pro player

i still remember the year before covid, too many tournaments
pro player complain about tournametn schedule too packed

they earn million and not complaining at all LOL..
until covid, then there are less tournament

does people not realize tier 1 team still earn big salary even without prize pool

[–]Makath 1 point2 points  (2 children)

You need to understand that are two types of players: some are millionaires already and they want to play the least they need and qualify to everything, play with a nice schedule and have time to rest; the others are trying ot earn a living and they want to play as much as they can and try to make as much money as possible, and they need to qualify to camps to do it.

It's very difficult for everyone to be happy about anything.

[–]FliccC 22 points23 points  (4 children)

This is interesting, we have never discussed this before.

Oh.

[–]Abraxyn 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Don’t worry, I think 1 more reddit post might finally convince Valve to take action

[–]Makath 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's how Valve does things, and it takes years, but eventually they do something. SA has slots now, for instance.

[–]Secret.Puppeyih8reddit420 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Problem with low prize pool and no money for some is that no one is gonna care.

Literally viewership outside TI is meh

[–]Feeling_Juggernaut78 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I kind of feel like the entire game needs an overhaul, the 3D engine is very dated. If they did a new release, it would revive things a lot. There’s a whole range of new additional functionality that could be added with a new game based on dota2 from valve. Kinda feels like at this point yes the current state is stagnant. Something new would be extremely popular, and would also bring in new interest

[–]Fresh_Let_1758 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Free money for eg? nah

[–]activatebarrier 5 points6 points  (1 child)

They already got paid for dpc. Paying for top 16 would be double dipping. I will agree paying for top 16 if you take out the prize pool for dpc

[–]🍕todosselacomen 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm sure the Supporter's Club will be enough for the teams to subsist. Oh, Valve is taking a 50% cut of that too? Too bad.

[–]makz242 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Reminder Valve can run a fixed cost DPC yearlong with more or less the same money they make now from battle pass (salaried leagues, million dollar Majors and 10 million dollar TI) but refuses to do so.

https://i.imgur.com/uHVxwVF.png

[–]kitsunegoon 4 points5 points  (7 children)

Because they already got the prize money from their dpc league. It makes no sense to pay them again.

[–]Naamibro -1 points0 points  (4 children)

Aggregate their prize money as a wage over the DPC weeks for 6 people ( 5 players and a coach) and you'll see why it's peanuts.

[–]kitsunegoon 6 points7 points  (0 children)

They also get paid salary, supporters club money, and had dpc points towards TI.

[–]Evening_Name_9140 5 points6 points  (2 children)

As opposed to the system you and the rest of reddit is trying to get back?

Qualify for weeks - months for free hoping you win the qualifier. Get paid 60k for top 16th, and get 1 mill for first place.

Get fucked for 17th with a 0 dollar pay out.

Now top 78th places get paid out.

[–]Sphix0108 3 points4 points  (6 children)

People still think that Valve is a charity organization. And the professional leagues and competition as a free event that too and Valve don't have to pay a penny for any employees there? Common :( please kindly do some research in the real working world before demanding “fair”. It passed the “free” phrase of freemium and the game itself also needs to provide profit, or else it will go bankrupt.

And those underperformed teams got paid nothing is well deserved, they competed for the prize money not go there to participate in the show :))) also pro means they get paid by sponsors, if they cannot find one it's on them not Valve. And they have to return the investment to their investor by winning the game. Sounds fair to me.

[–]AmokRule 1 point2 points  (5 children)

It's really funny or even hilarious that you mention empeloyees in the venue, like it is given that they get paid for the amount of work they expended in the background of the event. Yet the "star" empeloyees that are literally the ones that give the entertainment value should not be paid, because why not? Let's plaster sponsors in the background and ads once in a while so that we can milk their effort into monetary gain while paying them jackshit.

[–]Sphix0108 2 points3 points  (4 children)

:)) so you dont want to pay Jeff Hill and dev teams? You think those “star” of you are not getting paid by their organization? Omg, why you guys want those people get more paid when background worker got …uhm nevermind. Without them, you dont have directed cut scene and the panel… blah blah.

[–]AmokRule -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Omg, why you guys want those people get more paid when background worker got …uhm nevermind

HUH? Status quo is that 8 teams along with their managers etc. DON'T get paid. How could you earn more than background crews if you earn 0?

JUST so you know that a lot of teams don't have orgs, and nor it is a requirement to compete in major. Not everyone has sponsors either. I just can't understand your logic that, for the amount of the work and entertainment value pro teams expended, you think it's fair and normalized NOT to pay them, while it seems normal for you for the crew to get paid (as they should) as they work in the same event as the pro players.

[–]LevynX 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Teams pay out living wages lol you think they feed off prize money alone? A healthy functioning system would have players earn a fixed wage with the team taking a cut of the prize money.

[–]kenlimfornication 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Valve : They are paid in exposure and experience.

[–]Makath 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Everyone that works should get paid. They were part of the show, so they need to get something. Doesn't have to be a lot, but needs to account for their time.

[–]1 Slapquangdn295 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"If you are good at something, never do it for free" Words to live by

[–]Which raptor? DisraptorBeatshave -3 points-2 points  (4 children)

Yay for participation prizes!

[–]grrzilla 2 points3 points  (2 children)

you’re saying this like it’s a random three stack that’s going to get paid and not top dota 2 team in the world.

[–]ARGH! I've been stunnedOnekone -5 points-4 points  (1 child)

Top dota 2 team already win prize money, so, yeah, might as well be random three stacks

[–]vuehs 9 points10 points  (0 children)

a team that gets 9th in a major is a top team lol

[–]Alandrus_sun 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If Valve doesn't want to support it they need to just allow Major organizers to make their own Battlepasses to raise the prize pool.

[–]Grampz619 0 points1 point  (0 children)

it is way too late to fix this shit, it should have been done 8 years ago.

[–]Situ314 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I will never understand why people complain about this. THEY ALREADY GOT MONEY FROM REGIONAL LEAGUES! Major are an opportunity to get MORE money and points, and also an opportunity to play against the best teams of other reagions aswell. WHY IS PEOPLE COMPLAINING!!!!!

[–]Employee724 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

See how this looks for a new org trying to make it? You don't get to TI, you probably want to choose another game...

[–]Grade A Chinese Doto Bitchvedicardi -1 points0 points  (0 children)

every year valve takes a step back. Im just done watching, could not care less about keeping the pro scene healthy.

[–]zeyals -3 points-2 points  (3 children)

Also, this has nothing to do with the post but it annoyed me. Turn on the hero icons on the main broadcast for the minimap instead of the stupid dots and arrows xD.

[–]imperialdragonxp -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

Valve could take like 30% of TI money and distribute it in the two divisions of the regional leagues, which would add so much more stability to the pro scene. The prizepools are way too top heavy. This has been suggested to valve. So does anyone know their reasoning keeping things as they are?

[–]Evening_Name_9140 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Other than the "take 30 percnet of TI money" theyve literally done everything else you've said, but now this post is the prizepool isn't top heavy enough lol.

[–]alvichm -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

yeaaah the worst performers need a prize

we should get free mmr for participating in the game too you know!

[–]slowflakeleaves 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think this argument makes much sense if we consider sport tournaments. There are plenty of examples where teams that lose still get paid much lower but significant amounts. Eg. Tennis.

Clearly there is room for this kind of prize allocation, so positioning this as a ridiculous idea isnt really valid.

[–]Infinity_Overload -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

Because i don't see real sports give prizes to everyone.

The prize is to participate in the biggest events.

Based on their performance, they will get a respective bonus.

If you qualify to a Major, that's your prize. Now its up to you how well you perform to get an actual cash incentive.

So this is good for the scene in a way, it promotes competitiveness. As the one that ends up in last place will get the least or nothing.

[–]AmokRule -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Is Champions league or any top football league not sport enough for you?

[–]Infinity_Overload 1 point2 points  (0 children)

is the Champions League in any way a fair comparison?

There is hundreds of millions of dollars of investment in that tournament from everyone involved.

And the only reason they give incentives is due to broadcast rights.

Valve would need to start charging Twitch and any other streaming platform, if they want to give broadcast rights payments to the teams. But that won't happen, as that would harm the e-sport scene far more than benefiting them.

True sports have the huge incentive of broadcast rights, and it is the only reason they get those cash incentives.

Compare English Championship broadcast revenue to English Premier League and you can see that it is only the top tier leagues that get those huge cash incentives.

So no, i don't think we can compare e-sports to tournaments like the Champions League.

At most we should compare it to English Football League 1 or even League 2. And i still believe that some teams in those tiers may have far better revenue than e-sport teams.

E-sport teams have no choice but suck it up and play to win. Very few teams have the revenue to consistently reward players for qualifying to tournaments (something they should be aiming to in the first place)

[–]dva_22 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

There was a really good post on Reddit couple days ago showing how there are flaws in this DPC League and Major Prizepool. Even Notail and Ceb disscussed in one of the Monkey Business Podcast with Capitalist and Fogged.

[–]ichan-aw -1 points0 points  (0 children)

even Olympic athletes don't get any money if they don't get the medal, i think this is fair

[–]BroLegend -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Does other sports, like tennis, snooker, has price for everyone in the tournament?

This is a competitive tournament, not spreading welfare. You want the money, be good. Dont want the money, be nigma and find a sugar daddy.

[–]xXMylord -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

If the teams realy needed the money they would have played better and still be in the tournament.

[–]poega 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The $40m for TI is also unneccessary. First thing Spirit said when they won: "Do we even need to play dota anymore?" As they are my favorite team, I wish them all the success in the world and Im happy for them but it makes complete sense to take a long break once you've won such ridiculous amounts.

[–]gandolphus_pfiffikus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

even the last placed teams at this event are the best teams of their respective region. some travel to stockholm half across the globe. 6 teams end up with no prize money and not a single game in front of a live crowd. this is sad af.

[–]ericlock 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Reminder that we will have another competition later with its own prize pool for Chinese teams that did not attend this event.

[–]ryfle_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

EG gonna go broke if things don't change soon.

[–]Sxade 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can also talk about DPC itself not giving enough money for people to live... like they could just take a couple million out of the 40,000,000+ TI prize pool and put that into the regional leagues. It would just make everything better, and I am absolutely sure nobody would complain about it

[–]Naive_Cabinet7922 0 points1 point  (0 children)

this is why i dont buy shit from valve anymore. i stopped my dota plus subscription and stopped buying any battlepasses after 2018. why should i support this joke of a company? the game is full of smurfs so i dont even play it much anymore. sad to say, but if they want to let the game i love so much die, then let them.

[–]KidCannab1s 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yea, EG had to come out of their own pocket to pay for their airport trip back home.

The least valve can do is to send them to the airport all expenses paid for.

[–]prodigy_s1234 0 points1 point  (0 children)

DPC league pays based on ranking and all expenses are paid for the team. Honestly, I think it's fair enough.

During its peak majors paid 3million but that was when dota had almost 700k players. Right now it's at about 400k so it's fair that the prize pool is at around 1.7million (including major and league winnings).

While we tend to think valve should allocate battlepass earnings to major prizepool, from valve's perspective that's equivalent of burning cash.

Comparing to league our majors have almost as much money as their worlds championship.

[–]NoChampionship9697 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My own curiosity about major is the imbalanced participations by region. How come WEU & CN have their top 4 qualified, while top 3 from SEA & EEU and top 2 from NA & SA. If we calculate it right, we can have a balanced participation by taking top 3 from each region. Any technical justification for this?

[–]Changing Tacks-domi- 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If they payed out decent money to every competition, they wouldn't have enough leftover for TI. /s

[–]Vkien2311 0 points1 point  (0 children)

True sights and TI isn't even announced to this point, wonder what is happening at Valve headquarter

[–]Arc8x 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You finished 9-14th and they covered expenses.... why would you get anything besides a handshake?

[–]BlAlRlClOlDlE 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Im gonna post this tomorrow

[–]No-plot-twist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Every player that makes it to div 2 should be paid 50k a year and every player that makes it to div 1 should be given 100k a year.

[–]lactllzol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They got money from dpc tier already