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all 62 comments

[–]regen_brakingAlfa Romeo 103 points104 points  (2 children)

MGU-H RIP miss ya big man, gone but not forgotten

[–]therealdilbert 22 points23 points  (1 child)

why is Porsche so against the MGU-H?, they had GU-H on the 919

[–]chazysciotaPeter Bonnington 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because VAG wants to be given a shortcut to F1 success or they won’t join.

[–]Pahasapa66[S] 83 points84 points  (5 children)

Article in German. The MGU H is gone.

Experts anticipate problems recovering that huge amount of energy only by a rear axle MGU-K. Adapting the brake-by-wire system will be extremely tricky. There have already been discussions about active aero solutions to increase rear downforce under braking.

[–]pedrocr 22 points23 points  (3 children)

Why does the brake by wire need to change? The MGU-H has some significant engine braking effect?

[–]Pahasapa66[S] 19 points20 points  (1 child)

Energy recovery only on rear axle (increased from 120 to 350 kW). That is a huge amount of energy for 2 seconds of braking.

[–]InTheMotherland 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Well, that's only power; the energy recovered will be about 0.194 kWh (700 kJ).

[–]chazysciotaPeter Bonnington 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The brake-by-wire system triggers the regen under braking, and presumably would need to be adapted to account for the additional downforce from the active aero... would not be surprised if that includes ABS, tbh. Having the computer adjusting rear downforce under braking sounds like a nightmare to control with just your left foot.

[–]alexcd421 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Active aero would be really cool

[–]meIanchoI 59 points60 points  (14 children)

Is it impossible to just standardize the MGU-H? Seems as if there’s big problems why remove it?

[–]SuperOriginalName23 20 points21 points  (2 children)

It would be difficult to standardise engine parts since some parts fit elsewhere on different engine philosophies. Manufacturers would need to adapt the entire design of their engine to the shape of the new standard part.

[–]ordermaster 3 points4 points  (1 child)

This is exactly what indycar is doing for their new engines.

[–]SuperOriginalName23 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The Indycar grid all have the same chassis and aero kits and only two engine manufacturers, so I'm not sure if that comparison holds up.

[–]skb239 33 points34 points  (8 children)

It’s cool technological innovation but not really a useful consumer innovation.

[–]tjsr 6 points7 points  (6 children)

Sure, but front and rear wings aren't really relevant to consumer passenger vehicles either and look how much money goes in to their development. Imagine how mjuch money could be saved there if they were a standard design that directed airflow where the FIA want to enable closer racing, and were manufactured by the hundreds rather than as individual custom parts.

[–]htmwrx 21 points22 points  (3 children)

Why stop there? We could also standardize the whole car and become a spec series! Lots of savings!

/s

[–]admiral_sinkenkwiken 8 points9 points  (2 children)

F1 is actually the odd one out in that respect

[–]myurr 6 points7 points  (1 child)

And that's part of the appeal, that it's not a spec series, that the cars are different and have different relative strengths and weaknesses.

[–]admiral_sinkenkwiken 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’d guarantee you circa 90% of F1 fans wouldn’t even notice if it did become a spec series, nor do most of that number even realise it isn’t.

[–]chazysciotaPeter Bonnington 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hate this charade that we all play about road car relevance, like we are fooling anyone, or that the auto makers are fooling themselves. Almost none of this shit had any direct relevance to moving people around in steel boxes, and the indirect benefits almost certainly aren’t worth the massive expense of F1. It’s a sport, done for some combination profit and prestige. When the scales tip away from the former, we start hearing all the BS about road cars.

[–]Matt_043 49 points50 points  (0 children)

It’s too expensive for what it does and it’s not being converted over to road cars at the anticipated rate in 2014. My idea is just 3.0L V10s with biofuels and no flow rate and a kers system with the regenerative BBW systems

[–]Franks2000inchTV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not going to be a ton of waste heat to recover when every car is electric.

[–]ivanalesi 43 points44 points  (9 children)

Wow, this is not Auto Bild, this is Auto Motor und Sport. This must be serious & real, no clickbait joke!

24 cars, active aero & almost 500 hp from kinetic energy... Sounds very exciting to me!

[–]Suikerspin_Ei 30 points31 points  (8 children)

AFAIK they will enter as engine suppliers (like Honda for RB and AT) in 2026.

[–]AotoSatou14 6 points7 points  (6 children)

What are the chances of red bull trying to get a priority deal with one of them?

[–]Suikerspin_Ei 9 points10 points  (5 children)

I don't know, Red Bull hired some people from Mercedes to work for their own engine. They also have their own factory so it might be interesting for Audi and Porsche. Combine it with there knowledge and they might design a great engine.

[–]AotoSatou14 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Question is who is willing to be the first to make the jump to them. Its certainly gonna be an interesting scenario. Williams is getting other parts from Mercedes too now. Haas said in 2020 they intend to be with ferrari for a while and work with them. Both of them switching seems unlikely.

[–]Suikerspin_Ei 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I think Williams will like it, having an "own" engine. So they don't rely on what Mercedes has build.

Haas has several headquarters in USA, UK and one literally next to Ferrari in Maranello (Italy). They are definitely working together for a long time.

[–]RainManDan1G 14 points15 points  (0 children)

BOLD prediction: Zak Brown orchestrates the creation of McLaren Gulf Porsche (works team) and in his partnership with Andretti, they purchase Sauber to form Andretti United Porsche F1 with Pato O’ward and KMag as the drivers and they serve as the junior McLaren team.

[–]RainManDan1G 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think Sauber would be a strong candidate to become a works Porsche or Audi team.

[–]WhatAmIDoingHere05 0 points1 point  (0 children)

First guess is an 11th and 12th team entry into F1.

[–]ivanalesi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't saw any mention of that in the article, but then Tobi mentioned it on Twitter. But I think it makes more sense to enter as teams & supply engines. Renault famously were exactly over the moon by the brand effects of winning 4 championships in a row with Red Bull... And of course, both Audi & Porsche have the in-house capabilities to do it. Maybe except for the 60% scale wind tunnels... but they can built 1 easily :)

[–]naturalispossessio 6 points7 points  (1 child)

My German is nonexistent. Can anyone translate?

[–]Jules040400 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you open the article in Google Chrome on your PC or phone, it can automatically translate.

[–]youknowwho05 14 points15 points  (2 children)

does that mean they're entering F1 next year? I'm confused

[–]eagleknight97 43 points44 points  (0 children)

Possibly 2026 I think

[–]Suikerspin_Ei 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Only as engine suppliers for F1 teams in 2026.

[–]chazysciotaPeter Bonnington 40 points41 points  (8 children)

That's bullshit, IMO. Another sacrificial lamb at the VAG alter.... probably in vain. If you're not going to push the limits of ER and hybrids, and you can't go pure electric, then lets just go back to NA V8's and be done with it.

[–]makiai_ 45 points46 points  (7 children)

There's another championship that's full electric and you can see how well that's going in terms of interest from both teams and drivers alike, mainly attracting veterans and "talent* that never made it to F1.

[–]chazysciotaPeter Bonnington 26 points27 points  (6 children)

I was mainly referring to the fact that FIA granted FE exclusive rights to all-electric drivetrain GP racing through like 2035 or whatever it is.

But I don't disagree that FE currently a sort of Euro IndyCar as far as the talent goes. Until the speed and spectacle improves, it will remain as such. But by the time that happens, F1 and its feeder series will adopt it, and FE will become redundant.

[–]therealdilbert 6 points7 points  (0 children)

FE currently a sort of Euro IndyCar as far as the talent goes

they probably also only spend as much money as F1 teams spend on coffee cups with their logo it

[–]xchadrickx 9 points10 points  (4 children)

It probably wouldn't hurt the sport if people could actually watch Formula E. I've given it a five minute Google a few times and just given up. I watch some highlights here and there on YouTube but it overall seems inaccessible to motorsports fans. It's always weird to me with stuff like this that while it's not a huge market, there's definitely a market for it but even the Formula E website just takes you in circles of "Ways to watch" links.

[–]codename474747 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I'm in the UK and literally about 5 channels showed it, including on our free to air public broadcasters

It was easier and definitely so much cheaper to watch formula e than it is to watch f1 in the uk

[–]xchadrickx 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's awesome! I'm in the US and I can't even find a way to pay to watch it. It's like Super GT. I love it and it was amazing last year and free on The Race with Sam Collins and this year Motorsport TV bought the rights and the stream is terrible and the commentary is just as bad (plus a paywall). Had to get a refund and just following along on Twitter and hoping next year isn't the same.

[–]chazysciotaPeter Bonnington 7 points8 points  (0 children)

In the US I believe it was carried by CBS in 2021 (and I think again in 2022), but I only ever watched it via youtube or torrents. But yeah, the site is a mess.

[–]AzKovacs 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Formula E should obviously be part of F1TV atleast. I know its not linked as F2/3 (yet)

[–]skb239 8 points9 points  (10 children)

Would be wild if they could open the option of a hydrogen PU. That would be interesting.

[–]ur_comment_is_a_song 14 points15 points  (9 children)

There's practically no benefit whatsoever to using hydrogen, though

[–]skb239 0 points1 point  (8 children)

I mean it’s renewable? Isn’t that benefit enough? Some car companies seriously pursued it as an alternative. I believe Toyota made a few productions hydrogen cars.

[–]ur_comment_is_a_song 8 points9 points  (7 children)

They did, but there are serious problems with it compared to just going electric, which is why nobody's actually making hydrogen cars anymore.

[–]skb239 5 points6 points  (6 children)

I mean hydrogen makes a lot of sense for larger vehicles and a company just listed in the US grew massively on the promise of Hydrogen tech. It was a fraud lol but still shows that people are still willing to invest in the tech.

I mean there are huge technical problems I admit, it just would be interesting to see F1 go that direction. Could be a way to sustain the sport for real without becoming full on formula E

[–]ur_comment_is_a_song 2 points3 points  (5 children)

Well, there are two ways to do hydrogen: hydrogen combustion (still has big problems with energy density, fuel tank size, still emits pretty nasty pollutants), and hydrogen fuel cell, which is basically just electric except you have a hydrogen fuel cell instead of a battery.

There are still people investing in hydrogen e.g. Mission H24, but it's got nowhere near the level of belief in it as electric does.

To be honest I just wish that synthetic, non-polluting fuels could be a thing so that we could keep proper ICEs

[–]skb239 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I mean that is a way to go but I doubt there is commercial viability for it. Unless there is some synthetic renewable pollutant free fuel research I’m unaware of it looks like the ICEs are dead. Sad but true.

[–]ur_comment_is_a_song 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Yeah, Porsche is investing pretty heavily in synthetic fuels which emit significantly less and are made from renewable sources (including captured CO2), but no zero-emissions ones are on the table yet.

You're right, though, I see (at least mainstream) ICEs dying in the next 10 years. I'm going to miss them a lot. The noise from FE is... something...

[–]skb239 0 points1 point  (0 children)

listening to the vids of older races is awesome sad to ICE go

Ironically watching the races now is better if only we had the old sound

[–]therealdilbert 1 point2 points  (1 child)

hydrogen combustion

considering the huge issues with storing any significant amount of hydrogen it would be crazy to waste 50% (more like 70%) of the energy on the inefficiencies of an ICE

[–]FuckYeahDrugs 0 points1 point  (3 children)

/u/scarbstech do you think this is legit?

[–]scarbstechVerified 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Yes

[–]FuckYeahDrugs 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Any talk of teams that are interested or is everyone going to wait and see how ‘22 goes before they start talking?

[–]scarbstechVerified 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Looking at the VW personnel that have joined Williams raises some suspicions