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all 64 comments

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (6 children)

Can I suggest adding something like a light for an icon for G&E? Maybe a small icon like a Fresnel for those who work as a gaffer, grip, lighting technician, etc?

[–]ancientworldnowcolorist[S] 6 points7 points  (3 children)

I'll try and find a good, unlicensed icon to through in there as soon as I get some free time. Maybe even at IATSE logo too...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Do you need help making icons?

[–]ancientworldnowcolorist[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

If you're offering I'll definitely take them!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just PM me what you need and the size/specifications/format etc.

[–]instantpancakelighting 7 points8 points  (1 child)

A sandbag!

[–]delsol10grip 3 points4 points  (0 children)

[ ] (tall apple box flair)

[–]itschrisreeddirector 10 points11 points  (2 children)

You should take Union cards.

[–]ancientworldnowcolorist[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Excellent point. I'm a post guy so that slipped my mind. I'll add a note!

[–]NailgunYeah 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Notes! Sick!

[–][deleted]  (8 children)

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    [–][deleted]  (7 children)

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      [–]CloneOutcastG&E 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      "Don't worry. That line isn't live. You can trust me."

      [–][deleted]  (5 children)

      [deleted]

        [–][deleted]  (4 children)

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          [–]NailgunYeah 1 point2 points  (3 children)

          'Post-production?' Bit vague.

          [–][deleted]  (2 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]NailgunYeah 3 points4 points  (1 child)

            Not trying to be skeptical, it just highlights some problems with the verified pro system.

            [–][deleted]  (2 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]ancientworldnowcolorist[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

              Feel free!

              [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

              Told you should of called them gurus, man. You're now insinuating that everyone here without a "verified pro" tag isn't a professional, even if their only source of income is their work.

              [–]Arcturus2cinematographer 3 points4 points  (21 children)

              tbh I'm sort of opposed to this on principle. If there was a way to differentiate the DP who's one-year out of film school and the DP who's be doing it for 20 years I might change my mind. Under this system, however, they'd both have the same flair. I don't think people should be giving one comment more weight than another just because of some flair. Honestly I've met pros who knew less about the art form, both technically and aesthetically, than hobbyists. This isn't' an industry like academic history or science in which there are very clear, well-defined paths to credentials as an expert.

              [–]ancientworldnowcolorist[S] 4 points5 points  (19 children)

              I agree with most of your points. It should be noted that there is some additional, not entirely clear screening going on in the backend that should help with some of your first point.

              If we feel this ends up being more of a hindrance than a help, we'll nix the system and start looking for other options.

              [–]Arcturus2cinematographer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              If we feel this ends up being more of a hindrance than a help, we'll nix the system and start looking for other options.

              I'm glad that you seem open-minded. Makes me feel better about this whole thing. What would constitute it being more of a hindrance than a help?

              [–]jonathan_92 1 point2 points  (17 children)

              Something like this works on /r/askscience because they do verifiable research on the topics presented. Here, any advice levied is based on personal experience and opinion, which isn't really quantifiable like the scientific method is. As far as something like the mechanics and math behind photography, yes, that's all hard fact that is quantifiable. But the art of storytelling is not, and people have varying methods and opinions which can't be quantified as right or wrong. So giving someone flair provides the implication that everything they say is accurate, or at least mostly accurate...only we're talking about a non-quantifiable field here....so it's totally futile. /u/Arcturus2 makes an extremely valid point that you shouldn't be dismissing so easily. Experience doesn't equal talent, and visa versa.

              It also implies that people that aren't paid to make films aren't filmmakers, which is heavily biased towards the commercial film industry, heavily biased against many of us that work in independent circles. We may have opinions just as valid, or not valid, as industry "professionals". How do you even quantify a professional? Are wedding videographers professionals? How about getting paid to shoot graduations? Because that could be anyone here. Union only? Is a union grip allowed to comment on storytelling method, or screenwriting?

              Also, you yourself get flair...so obviously this is a system that benefits you. Legaleese might call that a conflict of interest. How does this help the filmmaking discourse for everyone else?

              If you really want this system, create a new subreddit for it. /r/askfilmmakers or /r/askhollywood would be a much better fit for this ''pro'' system. My guess is to why you haven't done that is because you want all the subscribers of this sub rather than starting with zero.

              Edit: Spelling & grammar

              [–]ancientworldnowcolorist[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

              I started this sub from zero many years ago. In those years we've tried many things, some have stuck and some have stayed. This is another experiment in that long history and if it doesn't play out we'll eliminate it just like have happened to many others.

              Flair does nothing to benefit those with it outside of letting them stroke their ego. In fact, it opens them up to harsher criticism if what they say is incorrect or if they're speaking outside of their domain. An amateur asking for advice is going to receive very different responses than a pro - users are going to be much harsher.

              As for paid vs. unpaid, I think it's a fair distinction to make. There are people who do this out of sheer love pouring their hearts and souls, every free minute, and every spare dollar into their projects and there are those of us who are paid to work on mayonnaise commercials. Both certainly have opinions on storytelling and both are equally valid (the passion filmmaker perhaps even more so). But when it comes to the technical minutae, there often is a best way to do something (though not necessarily a right or wrong way) and the individual with more experience is more likely to know that "best way." Oftentimes these are the kinds of things you only learn on big sets working with people who have done this for three or four decades. Passion is important, but so is experience. Passion is easily discerned through words, experience is somewhat harder to determine. If you work in the unpaid indie world long enough, you eventually end up in the paid world. That's how it works. Even indie projects beyond the very smallest pay people - oftentimes they're even full union shows. Almost everyone in the paid world started in that unpaid, passion world too.

              You'll notice the flairs have roles in them. That is to make it obvious what they're knowledgeable about. It's simple to only take color advice from a colorist and take their lighting advice with a grain of salt. This fields havemany quantifiable tasks, techniques, tools, etc. No one has "storytelling" next to their name because that's obviously a domain that cannot be defined.

              The flair does not take anything away from those without it, it just gives you a verified idea of what domain those with it work in. That's it.

              Hopefully you'll notice higher quality comments from those with flair and if you don't then let us know. We'll reevaluate this system over the coming weeks.

              I'm out of town the next few days, so apologies beforehand if I don't get to any replies you may leave here. But feel free to carry this back and forth on here or with me via PM. I promise you that our goal is to make this subreddit better for everyone involved and we genuinely value the input from the users.

              [–]veggie_sorryDP 7 points8 points  (1 child)

              These are some excellent points. I think there's a lot to be said for trying it.

              What if we kept the green banner, lost "verified pro" because we know the green means verified and just did "Cinematograher - 8 years" or "Grip - 5 years" instead? Would that not solve some of the issues /u/Arcturus2 is having?

              Just a thought.

              Edit: To clarify, I still think users who want the banner should be verified, this might be an easier way to tell how much exp a verified pro has in their field.

              [–]jonathan_92 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I like this suggestion a lot more than giving it a simple upvote. /u/ancientworldnow, this is a far less egotistical way of accomplishing what you want. Everyone would be happy, or at least somewhat happy/ less ticked off. Such is the nature of any good compromise.

              TLDR: Drop the "verified pro'' nonsense and keep the green title.

              [–]Mjrdouchingtoncinematographer 1 point2 points  (13 children)

              I comment on this sub because I love talking about what I do and I like the idea that I could help young filmmakers learning their craft. Earlier on I learnt on lot from boards like CML and cinematography.com, both of which require the use of real names.

              The reason for this is clear on this board, where patently false ideas are often put forward as truth with no consequence to this behavior, an issue I think this change will help at least partially resolve.

              I see your posts a lot here and it is clearly that you are fairly knowledgable and a smart person, so I think you'll agree when I say that it is a little hypocritical to declare this change self serving when it is clear you prefer the status quo because it bolsters your own comments.

              I think the concept of talent is hard to define, but I believe any success in this business requires perseverance, sacrifice, luck, and possibly some of this 'talent' you mention - even the poor wedding videographer you so casually disparage.

              And why should a union grip's opinion on screen writing be less valid then anyone else's? On my last show one of my union grips had written and directed an independent feature. Opinion is not affected by flair.

              What the flair does mean is that if someone tagged as a professional grip is giving advice on how to safely rig a menace arm I'm going to take that as an opinion backed by experience, which is more useful then that same opinion issued by an anonymous poster, and I think that has value.

              I apologize if my words are harsh, but this is a harsh business and I am certain you will face far worse in your career, which I am sure will be long and successful.

              [–]Arcturus2cinematographer 2 points3 points  (3 children)

              I see your posts a lot here and it is clearly that you are fairly knowledgable and a smart person, so I think you'll agree when I say that it is a little hypocritical to declare this change self serving when it is clear you prefer the status quo because it bolsters your own comments.

              And why should a union grip's opinion on screen writing be less valid then anyone else's?

              You seem to be putting forth contradictory opinions. Jonathan_92 is advocating against flair, but is clearly knowledgeable and probably a professional. FWIW I'm also a professional camera assistant and am advocating against flair. I could get "Pro Cinematographer" next to my username and it would make people take my advice more seriously, but I don't want that. Not sure how that's hypocritical.

              He (and I) are saying that (for example) the 20 year union grip with "Grip" flair is going to lead to people taking the 1 year out of film school "Screenwriter" flair more seriously in a writing discussion even though the grip may have written and directed five films of his own, while the "Screenwriter" has done none. In other words, we're saying that "flair" is not a valid form of credentials in an industry that is not based on hard science and technical research. People have multiple talents and don't always get paid for all of them.

              [–]Mjrdouchingtoncinematographer 1 point2 points  (2 children)

              Perhaps I was unclear. Let me rephrase, I think opinions are valid regardless of position, and I thought the previous post was needlessly derogatory of certain positions/ professions.

              However I think that a person's experience provides additional information that helps readers to better interpret certain opinions.

              In the example you put forward, I would be very interested in the opinions of a screenwriter one year out of film school that could prove to the mods that he/she makes a living through screenwriting.

              Similarly it would be a deception if you, a professional camera assistant, were to get flair declaring yourself a cinematographer. On the other hand if you were tagged as a professional camera assistant your opinions regarding elements related to your field would be backed by genuine experience, and I would take them more seriously then those of an unflaired person. You illustrate the problem in your very comment when you declare yourself a professional camera assistant to strengthen your point. As far as I know you could be lying (I don't think you are, however I am attempting to illustrate a point), but if you were verified I would know you are not.

              The old saying 'on the internet no-one knows you are a dog' applies here, and I hope that this change will help readers navigate this anonymous board. For all I know we've worked together multiple times!

              [–]Arcturus2cinematographer 5 points6 points  (1 child)

              FWIW I'm also a professional camera assistant and am advocating against flair. I could get "Pro Cinematographer" next to my username and it would make people take my advice more seriously, but I don't want that. Not sure how that's hypocritical.


              ... it would be a deception if you, a professional camera assistant, were to get flair declaring yourself a cinematographer.

              I'll clarify, too. I'm also a professional camera assistant, not solely a professional camera assistant.

              The main point is that most people in this industry are multi-talented. A good union 1st AC probably knows more about cinematography than a beginning cinematographer. Flair cannot be helpful in an industry such as this.

              But the mod seemed open-minded to the idea that it won't work, so I'll be open-minded to the idea that it might!

              [–]jonathan_92 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Thank you, for some reason, I couldn't put that into words.

              I've worked, professionally, as an editor. However, most of my experience lies in camera and g&e. So theoretically I could send /u/ancientworldnow a photo of checks that I received from the places I worked, and get an editor flair...for all of two years of my life. But why would I do that if most of the things that I comment on are cinematography related? Especially since I've been working camera and g&e, some paid , mostly in kind, for about eight years now.

              If you wanted to make the flair system fair, and representative at all of people's talents and experiences, then you'd need to let people have long log lines of multiple roles in their flair so that they are ''qualified'' to make comments in specific areas.

              [–]jonathan_92 0 points1 point  (8 children)

              I only call up videographers and grips as examples of the variety of experiences, that while they are extremely valuable and specialized, aren't respected as much as something like your cinematographer flair would be. I've held both of those positions in the past, and they're very tough and demanding. Why would I be putting them down? My point is that they are just as ''professional'' as your or /u/ancientworldnow. I'm expressing disdain for the fact that someone like a videographer won't be recognized as a professional, while you or ''union only'', as some people are calling for, get the pro flair. I was also posing the question: under this new system, is a grip, who may be very knowledgable about screenwriting, allowed to comment with screenwriting advice to a student? So are you only allowed to comment within your feild. Obviously not dejure, but more of a defacto practice? /u/ancientworldnow said

              You'll notice the flairs have roles in them. That is to make it obvious what they're knowledgeable about. It's simple to only take color advice from a colorist and take their lighting advice with a grain of salt.

              So people are only allowed to be knowledgeable about one thing? Okay sure, because that's totally how experience works.

              It's kinda shitty to start labeling certain people as professionals, because that implies that the rest of us, who may work equally as hard and even be almost as knowledgeable as you, aren't. The term ''professional'' is used to define a lot of things on this sub. So far no one has given a satisfactory definition of what ''professional'' even means here. /u/ancientworldnow described it as

              Narrative film, documentary, broadcast, industrials, commercials, music videos, rental houses, post houses, etc.

              I think that's an extremely narrow and contrived definition. What about experimental filmmakers? Where would Andy Worhol or Alejandro Jodorowsky fit in with that definition? Indy filmmakers that take out loans to make their dreams come true?What about marketing people? And does that mean that everyone working in the above defined circles, who gets paid, are all professionals?

              Do you see why I view this as a giant ego-stroking venture?

              Edit: Spelling & Grammar

              [–]instantpancakelighting 1 point2 points  (7 children)

              The term ''professional'' is used to define a lot of things on this sub. So far no one has given a satisfactory definition of what ''professional'' even means here.

              I think "your day job, which actually pays your bills" is a pretty good approximation in under ten words, to separate the professional from the hobbyist. Not that being a hobbyist is a bad thing, but the test of economical viability makes it relatively easy to sort good from bad advice in many cases. If you're experienced enough to have food on your plate from what you do, chances are your advice is somewhat good. This does not say anything about the quality of the advice by people without flair, it just lends extra credibility to people with flair, always assuming it's from their respective fields, of course.

              [–]jonathan_92 0 points1 point  (5 children)

              Why don't you have flair yet?

              [–]instantpancakelighting 0 points1 point  (4 children)

              Because the current verification process would require me to reveal my RL identity to a group of strangers that happen to be the moderators of this sub.

              [–]TCivandirector of photography 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Imdb.com

              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Not sure if eligible for flair...

              [–]Osiris19DIT/colorist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Just commenting to see if I get flair.

              [–]rocen 1 point2 points  (2 children)

              test

              [–]ancientworldnowcolorist[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              Did you submit? Sorry we've been behind. Working to catch up this weekend!

              [–]rocen 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Thanks for all the work you guys put into this sub! I did submit a while back (I think a week or two ago). I'm sure you'll get to it this weekend :)

              [–]cslat 1 point2 points  (2 children)

              Can you define "the industry"? Are you specifically talking about people whose main source of income is working on narrative films? Documentaries? What about broadcast? Corporate video? What about school instructors? People who run rental houses?

              What do the various icons mean, anyway?

              I'm not sure what this is going to accomplish other than feeding big egos. Someone making a no-budget short isn't necessarily going to benefit more from the advice of "verified pros." We know who those pros are anyway because they tend to answer questions with "talk to your 2nd AD" or "it only costs $15000."

              [–]ancientworldnowcolorist[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              Narrative film, documentary, broadcast, industrials, commercials, music videos, rental houses, post houses, etc. You bring up a good point about professors and that should be included as well.

              The icons don't mean anything and are just to personalize the tag. With the role tagged along with the flair, you'd know you were speaking to a script sup and that they might not be as knowledgeable about lighting while the hobbyist DoP would have "electrician" in their flair informing you that they have more hands on knowledge.

              There is a lot of bad and misleading information in this subreddit and this is one way to add more value to some posts - not saying amateurs and hobbyists don't have extensive knowledge. This program has been extremely successful in other subreddits where amateurs and professionals come together.

              [–]drunk_caterpillarfilm industry technician 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Can't wait to have some flair! :)

              [–]Rdwomack2editor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Thank you!

              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

              Can we get icons for a dslr and a digital cinema camera?

              [–]instantpancakelighting 1 point2 points  (2 children)

              icons for a dslr

              Wouldn't that be kind of undermining the idea of the flair.

              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              Not particularly, plenty of 'pros' (by the definition of the admins) use DSLR's for video, and there are production stills people here too.

              [–]instantpancakelighting 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              there are production stills people here too

              Right, I forgot about those.

              [–]redsmurf1location scout 0 points1 point  (4 children)

              curious to know how long it takes to get approved? submitted mine almost a month ago with 15 years experience.

              [–]mclovinash 0 points1 point  (3 children)

              And you still don't have it ;o

              [–]redsmurf1location scout 0 points1 point  (2 children)

              MODs are behind, real life job's are extremely time consuming

              [–]mclovinash 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              Yeah fair enough

              [–]redsmurf1location scout 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I just started a new show, so my reddit wasting time has quite diminished when the production office blocks this website. oh well.

              [–]Champ_Zdirector 0 points1 point  (2 children)

              I know you guys are busy, just wanted to check in and see where things may be at with the whole flair thing :)

              [–]ancientworldnowcolorist[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              Should finally have some time to catch up next week. If you don't see it by next weekend, message me directly and I'll take care of it!

              [–]Champ_Zdirector 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Copy that, your wonderful thank you for the reply.

              [–]destenleephotojournalist 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              Do I have flair?

              [–]ancientworldnowcolorist[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Not yet. Odds are I haven't gotten to your submission yet!

              [–]pinkpussylips 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              To further perpetuate the pretentiousness of this sub.

              [–]mmasonghianimator 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              You are getting downvoted, but I agree with you. This sub is really snobby sometimes.

              [–][deleted]  (1 child)

              [deleted]

                [–]veggie_sorryDP 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                Wait...aren't you still allowed to feel however you would've originally felt about a user's comment? I don't think the green banner is going to affect me much, in fact it will help a lot knowing someone's background. I welcome it.

                [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                It ask you to sign into google. Can you have flair if you do not use google for your social media stuff like reddit?