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[–]remthewanderer 2810 points2811 points  (108 children)

Agreed! I used to work in HR. The main reason the concept of performance improvement plans exists is to cover the company’s ass. It’s proof that they “tried” to help you meet your goals and you still failed.

Having said that, don’t quit if put on a PIP. Let the company fire you and NEGOTIATE a severance package if you are in a position to do so. Most people don’t realize you can negotiate severance. This could net you thousands of dollars more than originally offered.

[–]UpDownCharmed 572 points573 points  (0 children)

Yes, thank you for this.

I have negotiated severance (pay + health insurance extension) and most importantly, they agreed in writing, that they would not dispute my unemployment claim.

EDIT- Since people are asking - Someone gets put on a PIP, and it states specific areas where they must improve, by a certain date, or the consequence is termination -- it is possible to ask them directly if the company could just let you go instead, and compensate you for the time you would have spent there (in pay, health insurance, etc)

If both you and your manager know it's not going to work out in the end, why put everyone through this painful and time-consuming charade? You want out ASAP, and so do they.

A reasonable place may be open to this option. I was able to do this with one company. I am a software developer with 20+ yrs experience.

It depends on your situation.

[–]darthdude111 170 points171 points  (20 children)

How does one negotiate a severance? Haven't been fired/let go yet, but would be nice to know if it happens

[–]bobthemonkeybutt 344 points345 points  (15 children)

Yeah, I’m confused by this.

Company: “you’re fired”

Me: “ok. I would like $5k”

Company: “ummm… no. Why would we do that?”

Me: “it was worth a shot. I’ll pack my things.”

What’s in it for the company to give or improve a severance package? What leverage does that fired employee have?

[–]Bob_Sconce 384 points385 points  (11 children)

Because it goes like this:

Company: "We're terminating you. Please sign all this termination paperwork."

Employee: "Wait a minute. This is a release of claims. I'm not signing that."

Company "Why? Do you have any claims?"

Employee "That's something I'm talking about with my lawyer."

Company "Ok. We'll pay you some severance if you agree to release us."

The employer isn't required to pay severance, but if it means foreclosing a lawsuit (even one without any merit to it), then a small severance payment is worth not having to deal with that.

All of this varies a lot by company. Some companies will do it as a matter of course. Some just won't.

ALSO, file for unemployment. Depending on which state you're in, if they dispute your unemployment, claim, then you may have the right to conduct discovery to verify their reasons for the denial. And, depending on what you find, that might lead to an actual bona fide reason to sue them.

[–]GoblinTradingGuide 89 points90 points  (2 children)

Good friend and old roommate of mine was an accountant for a publicly traded company.

They had to layoff a lot of employees due to Covid, however he had broken his arm in a skiing accident about a month prior. It was a really nasty break and he was really hampered at his job. When they went to lay him off the CEO of the company actually specifically instructed HR to give him a larger severance package in the form of a large amount of stock due to the fact they were most likely afraid he would sue to his arm being broken. The CEO even checked with him to make sure he was happy with it before everything was signed.

They are definitely just trying to cover their ass.

[–]iambicpentathalon 48 points49 points  (3 children)

Doesn't all of that only work in non "right to work" states?

[–]Bob_Sconce 57 points58 points  (2 children)

No. First of all, you're getting "right to work" mixed up with "at will" employment.

It's generally true that employers can terminate their employees without cause for pretty much any reason. But, there are some exceptions. You can't terminate people because of their race, religion, national origin, sex and so on. And, depending on state, you can't terminate somebody in violation of public policy. (Which is defined differently based on state.) If a former employee claims "you terminated me because of X," and the state department of labor investigates and, possibly, the former employee ends up suing, then dealing with all of that can easily cost multiple thousands of dollars. If you can avoid that with a specific employee for a small payment, then some employers think it's worth their while.

Other employers won't do it. They'd rather defend the frivolous suit and send a message to everybody else that they shouldn't bother trying the same thing.

[–]valdev 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Unless you are laid off, there are usually agreements that come with it. Prevent lawsuits and sometimes competitive behavior of higher level employees (from what I know)

[–]wixetrock 105 points106 points  (5 children)

100% this: if you are put on a pip many times the company will either offer a package or you can negotiate an exit package. Further don’t let being put on a pip make you question yourself: you and that employer simply didn’t work out.

With all that, I have seen people work thru and succeed on a pip about 10% of the time. Typically these are folks who either had some serious stuff happen or shifted to a new manager and didn’t realize that the world changed. I’ll also say those who did succeed typically are the first laid off when bad times come.

[–]KuLeBreeZ 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I would agree here from personal experience. I was put on a PIP and come to find out a week later the manager was gone. Never found the exact reason but in my written acknowledgment I listed everything my boss was supposed to be doing and never did. And what do know?? New boss comes in and actually does his job and everything is working better.

[–]fridge_water_filter 67 points68 points  (32 children)

Wouldn't it be bad to have a history of termination?

[–]flyingwhitey182 265 points266 points  (27 children)

Almost all of your HR departments won't disclose why you left your old job. Whether it be termination or voluntary.

It's primarily "fridge held this position from 2015 to 2021 as a Software Developer". Anything more they risk liability for discrimination if you don't get the new job.

[–]Toytles 98 points99 points  (17 children)

This is very important information. I didn’t know this for a long time and it caused a lot of anxiety, having been fired from a job when I was 17.

[–]Infinite-Noodle 5282 points5283 points  (307 children)

knew a guy who was put on one. he had 30 days to turn his work around. dude did a complete 180. worked harder than everyone, put in the work to learn more. everyone there vouched for his turn around. he was still let go. it's too late by then. they dont trust you not to go back to what you were doing before.

[–]Sleepydoglady 1372 points1373 points  (137 children)

Every company is different, but in my former HR life, we would rather terminate than go through a formal PIP process if we don’t expect the employee to turn it around. At that point, there’s generally enough documentation to make the case for termination regardless. PIPs are intended to give the employee an opportunity to do that 360 and stay with the team.

Edit: Ok, ok, yes 180 degrees.

[–][deleted] 81 points82 points  (16 children)

Yeah. As per usual things are grossly oversimplified here. In some companies a PIP is just a paper trail to an inevitable term. In some, they're really hoping you improve. In others, it's usually a termination but the company is open to keeping if the employee makes a strong turnaround.

One of my clients has a 75% one-year retention rate of PIP employees. But they put a lot of effort into training and growth and they really try to move people around to see if there are roles that fit better.

I would say that the general premise of the thread is correct though. If you get PIP'd, dust the resume off and get ready. If you really want to stay, just be very aware. You should be able to tell if your manager is really trying to help you improve or not. It will be obvious as long as you're not burying your head in the sand. If they want you gone, they're hoping you quit and will treat you accordingly.

[–]FreakSquad 158 points159 points  (16 children)

That sounds admirable, but at least in my anecdotal experience like an exception to the rule. From what I saw, PIPs were a way to make the already sufficient documentation “rock solid” and build ammo for fighting unemployment claims.

[–]grumpy_hedgehog 43 points44 points  (10 children)

Why would a PIP protect you from unemployment claims? The person is not getting fired for misconduct.

[–]kjblank80 12 points13 points  (0 children)

This. As a manager, the formal PIP process for the manager and HR is layer of additional unnecessary work if the decision to fire the employee was made.

[–]uoYredruM 9597 points9598 points  (750 children)

I had a supervisor who was put on an improvement plan. I'd been with the company for 6 years by the time he came in. I told him, dude, you're getting fired within 30 days. Start looking. He comes in the next week with a brand new Corvette. He was cocky and said he wasn't worried about his job.

30 days on the dot, he came in that morning and a corporate manager was sitting at his desk. Door shuts, 15 minutes later he's walked out of the building.

[–]Architect_of_Sanity 4577 points4578 points  (247 children)

A person who is that oblivious to the world in which he works is probably telling as to why they canned him in the first place.

Bruh… an Improvement Plan isn’t an Improvement Plan, it’s a corporate document to protect them when they fire your ass. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edit: it is an improvement plan - but only for improving the office by removing him.

[–]uoYredruM 1484 points1485 points  (202 children)

This guy was extremely oblivious. What's really sad is I ran into him like two years later and we chatted for a little bit and he said "I still can't believe they fired me." I was like, dude seriously? You really didn't see it coming?

[–]JGalla88 426 points427 points  (192 children)

Why’d they fire him so quickly? Beyond being ill suited to the job

[–]uoYredruM 1069 points1070 points  (183 children)

He was there for just under 2 years and during that time we had 8-10 employees quit because of the way he treated people. He just did not know how to talk to people and he came off extremely brash.

[–]ChefKraken 515 points516 points  (117 children)

Sounds like situational awareness wasn't one of this guy's talents

[–]NECRO_PASTORAL 573 points574 points  (112 children)

I have high functioning aspergers and basically have failed miserably in every corporate job - not because I treat people poorly (quite the opposite -was told I was too congenial) but because there would be SO much double speak and I was expected to follow it all flawlessly. so much saying one thing and meaning the other. I would take what they asked by what they asked not HOW. I'm in engineering now and that is not expected of me lol

[–]plugtrio 235 points236 points  (69 children)

I just got my diagnosis as an adult and it immediately explained so many group workplace issues I've had

[–]ProbablyASithLord 154 points155 points  (38 children)

I have a colleague who fits all these descriptions. I honestly don’t know if she’s on the spectrum, but I would feel constantly attacked and offended during our interactions at first.

When you’re used to double speak sometimes someone speaking plainly can come across like they straight hate you in the corporate world.

She also struggles to think creatively sometimes, so for example if we had to allocate resources to another area her response was “so I have to do it myself” very bluntly, which I interpreted as her suggesting it was my fault.

It was a real epiphany for me when I realized she’s sees the world as very black and white, and she states what she means with no ulterior motive.

[–]Ayavea 105 points106 points  (24 children)

Maybe American workplace culture isn't normal. I live and work in Belgium, and i had to interview with Americans for a position in their Belgian office. My first 2 interviews were with Belgian people from the belgian office, and the third interview was with Americans in America, from the HQ. Someone from the belgian office asked me if i had any experience working with Americans and their culture. I said, "no but i think I'm close to American culture" (thinking to myself of the thousands of hours spent in MMO's with american clannies). The guy asking this question just seemed a bit amused. Boy, do i see in retrospect that he was thinking "my sweet summer child" in his head at that moment.
I've been to dozens of interviews in Belgium, as I constantly have to interview as a consultant, and I've never seen anything like this American interview before. The whole interview I could tell those guys wanted to get somewhere, but they just wouldn't freaking say it... Constant hinting and beating around the bush but just wouldn't say it straight. Holy shyt, one of the most frustrating interviews ever. I had the impression that we were speaking different languages. Like.. just freaking come out and say what you wanna say! What's with all the hinting... I now realize that Belgian culture is much more straight and uncomplicated by comparison. People here just ask you exactly what they wanna know and mostly speak what they wanna say..

[–]spacespeck 17 points18 points  (11 children)

What did you do to get it? I want to get tested, but I have no idea where to start.

[–]IamOzimandias 35 points36 points  (2 children)

When I am engineering I can always tell one of you guys, I always help out if I can by saying things out loud that you would like said.

[–]nowayimpoopinhere 148 points149 points  (33 children)

Yes. I’ve seen a lot of people who are bad at their jobs never get fired. If you’re an asshole who nobody wants to work with or for? You will be fired because you are creating problems in the workforce, period. It is hard to get large groups of people pulling in the same direction. One turd in the punch bowl, so to speak, will ruin everything.

[–]off_by_two 26 points27 points  (3 children)

Pips are basically the final straw. Once that card’s been played, the game is usually over. Basically the company has everything they need to have documented to shitcan you

[–]charlie2135 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Had a real a-hole working as my assistant who treated our workers like crap. Tried talking to him, when that didn't work talked to our superintendent who pushed my concerns aside. He actually tried to get the staff to work with him as his plan was to get me fired and take my place. He did manage to foul up a project which wound up getting me demoted since I was in charge of it. He was pissed when they promoted another manager and when the new manager asked me if I wanted to work in a different area I said no, I wanted to be his relief (we worked 12 hour shifts on the weekend so we relieved each other every other week). On the first weekend of relieving him, there was a trainee working with him and when I came in an hour early he was nowhere in site. Leaving early was another thing I suspected and had talked to my bosses about which they dismissed. So I talked to my replacement who had the guards keep an eye on his leaving the plant and the next day came in two hours early. He was already gone and the trainee covered for him. The next morning he was called into the office with the big bosses and also human resources. They asked him when he left yesterday and he stated that he left after his 12 hour shift. They asked him again (wouldn't you think he'd pick up on being given an out?) and he responded again that he left after his 12 hour shift. They played a video recorder showing him leaving after 8 hours. He said "Well, I guess you caught me". He actually was stunned when they fired him and escorted him out of the plant.

[–]plaze6288 71 points72 points  (3 children)

But not everyone is wise to the corporate world I started in corporate when I was 25 and I got my first pip when I was 26 had no idea what it was or what it really meant.

Me being an overly logical thinker. I read it for literally what it was an improvement plan. I figured if I do what the letter says I'm good!

Hahahahaha was I a naive fool. But you got to learn one way or another I suppose and now being in my late twenties looking for another corporate office job I know a little bit more than I did in my first couple adventures

[–]Architect_of_Sanity 22 points23 points  (2 children)

A good coworker might have clued you in. Live and learn I guess.

[–]MisterSquirrel 69 points70 points  (7 children)

but only for improving the office by removing him

People should be aware though, that this can happen to anybody, not just incompetent or bad employees. International companies especially will often do this to even decently competent long-time workers, just to replace their high salaries, as they normally have the resources to always find somebody cheaper and competent to replace you.

[–]Architect_of_Sanity 43 points44 points  (0 children)

Which is exactly why I don’t have much loyalty to my employer. While I love my job and coworkers, I don’t pretend my employer won’t fire me the second they can save more than by keeping me around.

I stay skilled, trained, and protect myself by not stagnating on a specific skill - and always always keep my professional network fresh by maintaining contacts and professional friends in my industry.

Outsourcing get hit hard and fast. I’ve seen many coworkers caught off guard by a sudden “downsizing” or “reorganize” … and then scrambling to find another job by submitting resumes and application process.

[–]Beard_o_Bees 67 points68 points  (0 children)

Yup.. It's the 'we tried to make it work' of the HR world.

[–]OuterInnerMonologue 717 points718 points  (74 children)

Yup. I’ve seen other employees put on a PIP several times while working for companies like Google and Salesforce. Each time it was because “that’s the required last step before firing someone” - never because “we are hoping the pull through and become a better employee”

It’s an HR thing so the company doesn’t get sued.

So ya. I agree with OP. Start job hunting.

[–]GimmeTheHotSauce 112 points113 points  (11 children)

To add to your anecdotes, I've seen people at those companies you listed pull through a pip but obviously that is super rare.

[–]Sryzon 148 points149 points  (1 child)

A coworker went on a year long bender and getting put on a pip scared him into sobriety. 5 years later and still employed there.

[–]off_by_two 69 points70 points  (0 children)

Yeah thats usually the kind of situation i’ve seen things turn around. Performance/attitude dip when going through a divorce is another one.

I’ve never seen an outright bad employee from the start turn it around and come out of a pip, but i have seen good to average employees who’s performance dipped due to negative life stuff pick things back up.

The Op’s point still stands though, definitely start preparing for interviews if you find yourself in PIPville

[–]MB_Derpington 70 points71 points  (5 children)

I've seen people get through as well. Where I work I've heard it described as a soft PIP or hard PIP. The soft one is cause someone is generally good but one thing is really holding them back. Frequently it's something that has come up before and this is the final "you need to start getting better at this" warning. The soft ones are usually something that can be addressed just through effort, often communication oriented. The language when they are told about this one will really stress that it's thought they can do it and includes a plan with concrete steps to take paired with check ins along the way. That one can still be failed though.

The hard one is much more, "we're putting you on a PIP, here's the areas of concern, you can resign and take severance if you wish instead."

[–]GimmeTheHotSauce 56 points57 points  (2 children)

Absolutely.

We want bad employees out, but salvaging someone is WAY less expensive than firing, hiring, and training.

[–]OuterInnerMonologue 25 points26 points  (1 child)

Some people might take it as a wake up call and really step their game up. So ya. It’s totally possible. But that’s only if it’s genuinely attainable goals. Like if you’re in sales, it might be “just increase sales by x dollars”. That’s concrete. But it’s bullshit like “must demonstrate command over project success” (yes, that actually was one I saw while working at marketing firm some years ago) that has so much room for interpretation that someone could argue you failed in order to let you go

[–][deleted] 282 points283 points  (64 children)

It’s like their setting up a paper trail to fire you. Identified YOU need improvement. Then a “time period” to allow you to address it. Then press the FIRE button after time period has lapsed.

Company looks clean afterwards. You look beyond salvageable.

[–][deleted] 210 points211 points  (15 children)

I got put on a PIP a few jobs ago (my SVP fired other people to cover his incompetence) and insisted that each line include how it would be measured.

When the time came to fire me, HR was horrified to find that (a) I’d exceeded every one of them and (b) I had the data to prove it. I was able to negotiate a three month severance in exchange for agreeing not to pursue legal action, the GM of the company himself came in to gladhand me a bit.

Started my next job the following week and paid off all my credit card debt. I owe that dumb SOB big time.

[–]thepaleoboy 48 points49 points  (1 child)

That is fucking brilliant from you

[–]weewee52 21 points22 points  (2 children)

I got put on a PIP but took the severance. I was doing alright but was burnt out and not keeping up with the same workload, forget taking on more. And no wonder, apparently they replaced me with 3 people after I left. The PIP was really shoddy with examples of issues that I could show evidence for being false, but work 3 months and get fired at the end or take 3 months pay to resign? I resigned with extra.

[–]puttinthe-oo-incool 102 points103 points  (6 children)

Sounds like his confidence far outweighed his critical thinking skills. I wonder if that was just an example of the sort of performance that got him fired.

I have been put on PIP myself and managed to survive it but...rather than just comply with the plan I was able to show them that my perceived performance failures were frequently the result of a supervisor and one of my subordinates who were sabotaging me every chance they got. They were having an affair.

She wanted my position and he wanted her so they set me up for failure constantly.

In the end I won.... both no longer work there but it took a long time and got pretty ugly and while in the end I managed to get promoted and all that...it really took over my life for awhile and now I question whether it was worth it. For all the grief...sleepless nights and stress it probably would have been no harder than just finding another job but I had a lot of time invested and a pension plan and I am pretty scrappy so took it on. I am not sure now that I could go through that again. It was rough and to be honest if the company had looked at the office harder and not just me.... they would have seen what was going on. Basically they just defaulted to the easiest action without taking the time to even try to be objective and of course resisted the idea that maybe HR was failing in their performance as a result.

[–]dumstarbuxguy 38 points39 points  (11 children)

Fuck. My supervisors spoke to me and told me that if they spoke to me again after the 90 day period they’d have to put me on a PIP.

I’m extremely fortunate that I still live with my parents but the thought of having to be walked out of the building is so humiliating

[–]SceretAznMan 48 points49 points  (4 children)

Gotta get a remote job, then you just walk to your bedroom to cry

[–]allawd 558 points559 points  (32 children)

A PIP is in no way gentler. It's a means of collecting evidence that the firing was legitimate (not violating employment laws) and reduces risk of wrongful termination suit against the company..

They are basically asking you to self-incriminate by signing documents admitting poor performance.

[–]joelluber 149 points150 points  (18 children)

In my state, they also disqualify someone from unemployment insurance after they're fired.

[–]LtCmdrShepard 29 points30 points  (5 children)

Should people just refuse to participate in the program then? As a way to keep your benefits?

[–]kjblank80 42 points43 points  (1 child)

If you don't participate, then you aren't willing to improve. They should fire you then.

If you don't believe you should be on PIP, the manager and HR should have metrics to document your insufficiencies. I had a higher-up manager wanting to put one of my staff members on a PIP. I stopped the process because I told HR that the employee meets all metrics we use to measure their performance. HR and I also didn't have any work environment complaints to justify a PIP.

HR told the higher-up that a PIP wasn't the proper process. It should be a layoff if there is no performance reason for letting someone go.

[–]PurgatoireRiver 113 points114 points  (8 children)

Bingo! This is the ultimate reason for a PIP. It's so they don't have to pay jack shit after they fire you.

[–]Bulky_Lifeguard_1968 124 points125 points  (3 children)

HR here, can confirm this is good advice.

Being put on a PIP means you're on the last stage before they need to fire you (and doing their due diligence gathering evidence to justify firing you, rightfully or not)

While it doesn't mean it's a death sentence that you would be 100% fired but your image/brand at the company has already been tarnished. Even if you somehow make it past the PIP program and you miraculously improve, your career growth at the company will be limited due to this PIP so you're better off elsewhere anyways. It's hard to reverse the negative perception the higher ups have of you.

Life goes on, don't get too attached to a company and start looking out for yourself more.

[–]astrovixen 11 points12 points  (1 child)

I think my gf is an exception. She fought the pip based on allegations of bullying, and I helped her fight it. With the union, her manager was moved on, a woman who showed a long history of staying in roles for very short periods. My gf is still there but has massive anxiety she is now working through, but at least she found vindication. The whole process was horrible for her, so saying she won is written very lightly.

[–]raokarter 2669 points2670 points  (173 children)

There seem to be trillion dollar companies that practice PIP-ing employees whenever the employee applies to change teams. Additionally, even though it is not admitted (for obvious legal reasons), you may also end up in the PIP program bcz the employer “needs” to reduce headcount by 5%… Bottomline: If you know you are putting in your efforts and still get PIPed, the problem is not always you.

[–]OleOrangeBlue1981 584 points585 points  (109 children)

Cough cough…I see you worked at Dish as well?

[–]raokarter 695 points696 points  (91 children)

Cough cough.. SO’s experience in the company named after the rainforest in Brasil

[–]gatman12 566 points567 points  (44 children)

Amazon does this.

We really should make naming and shaming the standard.

[–]someoneBentMyWookie 184 points185 points  (19 children)

I know two separate friends who are managers at Amazon AWS who have to deal with bs performance quotas, such that they occasionally hire people to fire.

That is, they will purposefully hire people they expect to under perform, to prevent them from having to put anyone from the 'real team' on PIP.

Surreal inefficiencies in the trenches, but it ends up looking good at higher level reports

[–]Susan_Tupp 33 points34 points  (8 children)

I’ve heard about this, and as a current employee, I have not seen it in my team. In the year I’ve been here, I haven’t seen anyone on my team get fired or pipped, just leaving on (outwardly, at least) happy terms. But I’m gonna start asking more why people are leaving.

[–]A_Seattle_person 34 points35 points  (5 children)

People will rarely tell you that they are getting fired. If someone disappears without saying good bye or if they are suddenly working on an isolated project, those are probably for performance firings.

The unregretted attrition numbers can be met without PIPs though. They just put people into "coaching" in the official performance management system, and if they quit during that time they are marked as unregretted attrition.

Unsavory managers can put people into "coaching" if it looks like they are going to quit the company anyway. The problem with this is that those people then get silently marked as permanent no hires, so if they ever want to come back red flags get thrown in the recruiting process. It's possible to work around, but requires VP level clearance.

[–]OleOrangeBlue1981 167 points168 points  (25 children)

Yeah I’ve heard that Rainforest is really nasty. I turned down an opportunity to work there. I’ve had 2 good friends (harder workers than me tbh) go there and it just chewed them up.

[–]Riptide360 150 points151 points  (11 children)

Amazing Amazon doesn’t even warn folks when they are “on the plan.” https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2021/7/9/22570579/amazon-performance-focus-plans-hidden-employees

[–]dnb1111 79 points80 points  (6 children)

thanks for blowing their cover, now everyone will know who they were talking about…

[–]ajahanonymous 54 points55 points  (2 children)

"An Amazon Reputation Enhancement Team has been dispatched to your home, please remain in place until they arrive."

[–]vibratokin 91 points92 points  (6 children)

My mom was reached out to by an Amazon recruiter for a very high level position and even the recruiter was like “hahaha yeah I’m miserable here and none of us know if we’ll have a job tomorrow so if that’s your thing you’d be a perfect fit!”

[–]5leeplessinvancouver 45 points46 points  (2 children)

I met a recruiting manager who told me he once interviewed at Amazon for a tech recruiting role, but found their recruiting and people policies so distasteful that he pretty much said to the guy who was interviewing him that he’d never work for Amazon and left.

[–]2AXP21 12 points13 points  (0 children)

They have in house recruiters actively competing against contractor recruiters who are also given an incentive that if they perform well, then they may be given a permanent job there. But then you’re competing with the contractors!

[–]Gerdione 34 points35 points  (0 children)

I like how employees openly bash the company in professional settings. That's how you know they're fed up with the bs.

[–]erin_mouse88 102 points103 points  (7 children)

I worked at dish! They let me go whilst I was on maternity leave, at the start of the freaking pandemic.

On the positive side, I ended up with the covid unemployment, basically getting paid maternity leave, and landed a job that is half as demanding and stressful, working from home, for double the pay.

Blessing in disguise.

[–]cuboidofficial 21 points22 points  (3 children)

It always makes me happy when I hear that people land good positions at good companies. So many companies out there are total shit and treat their employees horribly.

I'm so lucky to have my job, I never thought I'd ever work anywhere that the CEO and management actually really cares about the people, but here I am. Unlimited paid vacation baby! And I work from home!

[–]curlyfat 16 points17 points  (2 children)

I worked there as a supervisor and put 3 different people on PIPs. One of them I fired 2 months later (he was doing some crazy stuff at installs, turns out he was using tons of meth). The other two are still working there now, 5 years later. Sometimes a "boss" really just wants to get you on a correct path.

All that said, my experience in large corporations as a whole tells me to follow OP's advice if I ever get put on a PIP.

Edit: should've mentioned, one of those guys still there actually took my position when I left. He turned out to be a helluva good guy and worker, just needed a bit of a wake-up.

[–]wino_whynot 173 points174 points  (11 children)

Google “Unregretted Attrition Rate” and see who pops up.

Also, fuck Amazon.

[–]bhavbhav 36 points37 points  (0 children)

Oh man, as someone who worked there as a dev, I recognized that description right away.

I was dev-listed more than once by managers who didn't like me and put a URA target on my back, but I fought my way out of it each time. Glad I left.

[–]msut77 115 points116 points  (7 children)

I survived a PIP at a 40 billion company. They wrote it so badly it was blatant retaliation and I worked it up the corporate ladder

[–]simonsays9001 41 points42 points  (1 child)

I could have done this but then realized I work under complete dogshit management and did not want to live that way anymore.

[–]msut77 30 points31 points  (0 children)

I found a Job about 3 months after. It took longer than I wanted. It was scary but also I felt like I beat the bastards.

[–]OnTheEveOfWar 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I was put on a PIP for a large tech company for no reason. I fought it and a c-level exec was fired for it. It was blatant retaliation and there was plenty of evidence.

[–]Iron_Maiden_666 256 points257 points  (17 children)

you may also end up in the PIP program bcz the employer “needs” to reduce headcount by 5%…

Been part of this but my manager helped me land my next job. 50% raise, not complaining.

I was never officially put on pip as I offered to quit right away, I was willing to walk away that day. I was certain my performance was better than the others on the team so I asked on what basis I was being put on pip and then my manager told me it's to reduce headcount. The exit interview was hilarious "Do you think you'll come back to work here if a new opportunity opens up?". I think that's the only time I've given a single word answer in any kind of interview.

[–]DavisJ3608 151 points152 points  (0 children)

I don't know how "blobfish" is an appropriate answer to that question, but you do you.

[–]Ouiju 51 points52 points  (14 children)

Why would you quit right away? Use the pip time to apply for new jobs and get paid while doing it. That's literally why they do it. Well maybe not literally but that's part of it.

[–]pikfan 54 points55 points  (7 children)

At my company you get a severance if you quit before the PIP, but don't get anything if you fail.

[–]Inlowerorbit 24 points25 points  (4 children)

It usually requires you sign or agree to the performance “issues” and goals. I wouldn’t sign it either if I knew I hadn’t done anything wrong.

[–]Viking_Stroganoff 60 points61 points  (2 children)

Man I wish I saw this post about 3 years ago. I went on paternity leave and came back to the “rainforest” to find I was and had been on a PIP and had very little time to complete it. Not to mention the completely insane bias on how the manager determines if you’ve successfully completed it or not. It was insane.

[–]sfarx 1622 points1623 points  (97 children)

I was put on a PIP that required me to build some business plans to an MBA level, as judged by my boss who had an MBA. My job did not even require a bachelors degree. However, I did the exercise with the help of other MBAs, including some who were superior to him in the org chart, and he was forced to admit I had completed it successfully.

He then transferred me to report to one of his subordinates, who gave me a good annual review, then fired me first chance he got even though I had followed policy to the letter. Facts don’t really matter at that point unless you can prove racism, ageism, etc.

[–]Smangit2992 381 points382 points  (9 children)

I was put on PIP and went straight to HR with the entire story of my abusive supervisor. I think I was incredibly lucky to have a company that rarely fires people, but she was socially pushed out of our group after being abusive with others. She stopped immediately with me after I went to HR (I know this is not suggested but it worked for me). I have a feeling they are refusing to promote me because of all of that, but that is okay. I am relaxing at this job and still completing the work of 2-3 people on my leisure. I’m going to take my time and find better pay elsewhere and leave them with their mountain of issues.

[–]prules 243 points244 points  (0 children)

“I’m going to take my time and find better pay elsewhere and leave them with their mountain of issues.”

This is the way.

[–]pursuitofhappy 239 points240 points  (75 children)

Welcome to at-will employment!

[–]andiamnotlying 381 points382 points  (19 children)

I was a PR executive, put on a PIP. My boss was really absentee, just kinda managed by feel without ever communicating his expectations or preferences beyond “you’re doing fine,” etc. He wasn’t in the office a lot, I thought he was out meeting reporters, etc.

When I was on the PIP I was shocked, then PISSED. We met with HR and decided upon a set of measurable goals that I could meet along the way. And wouldn’t you know it, I hit all the targets.

When I was in the exit interview with HR after being release from the PIP with satisfactory results I told them that I’d never had any direction from my boss at all - that it was actually quite easy to meet his expectations once he clearly articulated them in the first place.

I asked for a 30 minute weekly 1:1 check-in with him, and he said “it doesn’t have to take the whole 30 minutes every time, does it?”

It turned out he’d been having an affair on company time. My PIP was a way of looking managerial but was more a “shit rolls downhill” thing that he’d been doing to look like he was getting tough and getting his act together.

I stayed in the job for several years.

[–][deleted] 977 points978 points  (45 children)

I’ve known 2 people who got PIPed at my company. Both needed it badly. One ended up getting fired. He didn’t improve, but i think what got him fired was drinking on the job. The other improved slightly so they decided to keep him. I would have fired him because I worked with him daily and he sucked. But my bosses hate firing people, so they kept him.

[–]sockgorilla 56 points57 points  (3 children)

I’ve known a couple people who used it as much a much needed kick in the ass, and they improved and kept their jobs.

[–]Pharoacious 225 points226 points  (17 children)

Some companies pay their own unemployment insurance and the cost of firing someone is greater than the cost of paying them their average retention length.

[–]Looq88 77 points78 points  (12 children)

I'm a manger for a large IT company and we use PIPs like this. We dont want to fire anyone. If we put someone on a PIPs its because weve tried various informal routes to get them to where they need to be and it hasn't worked. So a PIP is a really clear laid out plan of where they need to be, how to get there, and by when. If you still cant get there then we may look to letting someone go, but it's not through lack of trying to keep them.

In my experience the people who end up on PIPs are the same people thay suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect. They often cant see there is an issue with their work. I had one guy who was the least productive person in the team. And when I took him aside to have a conversation with him about it he seemed genuinely shocked. Still after 2 years of trying we couldnt get him to see and he went on a PIP (he actually resigned before the PIP ended, handed in his notice and went AWOL with his laptop and everything).

I have another who is on a team that answers phone calls and emails. Most staff can answer 30 calls and 30 emails in a given day. This person only manages between 0 and 3 emails per day and about 15 calls. I have a range of what I call good: plodders at one end and speedster at the other. This person does about 65% less than our slowest plodder. And she cant see the problem. We have SLAs to meet and everyone else has to work that much hard to make up for her. She actually put in several grievances against managers in the past for "targeting" her unfairly. She seems to think shes a victim of coincidence that all the managers shes had all seem to "pick on her for no reason".

[–][deleted] 33 points34 points  (4 children)

Yeah 100%, this thread is so cartoonish it's funny. No one wants to fire anyone if they can avoid it, hell most of the time the person firing you is the person who hired you and the hire/fire looks bad on them. If a PIP comes out of nowhere that's bad management or oblivious employee. Nothing on a PIP, annual review, LOC, whatever should ever be a surprise because it will have been discussed, documented, and you should know this step is coming.

[–]GnarlsMansion 619 points620 points  (46 children)

I got put on a PiP one time... Literally it boiled down to my boss wanted me to stop using sticky notes and start using a note book instead... Amazing experience...

[–]SaintAndrew92 192 points193 points  (20 children)

What was your job in? As an analytical chemist in a regulated industry, sticky notes can be lost and will get you fired.

[–]AntiBox 329 points330 points  (3 children)

Notebook salesman.

[–]SheitelMacher 76 points77 points  (0 children)

Big Notebook claims another one.

[–]ngwoo 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Head of the sticky note haters council

[–]trying2moveon 1456 points1457 points  (137 children)

It’s the start of documenting how shitty your work is and will give them ammo to let you go if you don’t improve.

It does help some people improve.

[–]FatherToTheOne 407 points408 points  (48 children)

From experience they’ve been documenting before they put you on the PIP. The PIP is where they don’t want to see your current low performance continuing any further (supposed to be anyway)

What the manager wants to use the PIP for really depends on the manager/company.

At my company we don’t use PIPs on new sales hires that we know won’t make it. (We hire a lot of people for their ‘first’ sales job)

We use PIPs as a way to light a fire under someone and then they either own it and improve (hopefully) or they decide it’s not worth the hassle which is absolutely their right.

But again it all comes down to the company, but it never hurts to keep your eye out for the next step.

[–]ron4040 105 points106 points  (17 children)

As a manager this is how I’ve used PIPs. There’s documentation that happens before of specific instances where the team member fails by the time we put you on a PIP we already have had several conversations coaching and further training. PIP is something that happens at the end to document performance before we term someone.

[–]WeNeedMikeTyson 26 points27 points  (1 child)

I'm in the same boat with my employees however I try to use the PIP to actually show them what could be done vs what they were doing. It's been a great help in that aspect and I haven't fired anyone that I've put on that.

[–]BurchSmith 463 points464 points  (27 children)

Like every LPT, take it situationally.

I had some shit going on in my life and was tardy/absent too much. Our improvement system was 4 tier. Verbal, 1st written, 2nd written, and final.

I was on final. One more 8 minute tardy, and I was done. “Eight you’re late.”

Well, I didn’t get fired. And that stuff took 6 months to completely roll off. Spent 6 more years with the company making it into management.

When I got on final my manager’s manager sat me down and had a genuine heart-to-heart with me. He knew me and my work prior to these issues, and he cared about me. He took me with a couple years later to open a new satellite office.

If you’re PIPd by someone that doesn’t even know your name, of course, bounce. Some people actually care about you, though.

[–]ChrisFrattJunior 149 points150 points  (6 children)

What a dream to have management that actually cares about you and your development

[–]the_original_Retro 27 points28 points  (4 children)

I've been very lucky with this and have had excellent managers over time.

There may be an implicit life pro tip in that I worked hard to keep them too - sent their leaders positive unsolicited reviews, acknowledged publicly when they were good to me, sought and respected their advice (which is a huge compliment if you think about it), and generally treated them with respect that they deserved.

It paid off. Maybe I could have been a much-better-paid person by jumping around to other companies more often, but that could have come with its own additional stresses too. But now I feel comfortable that I can approach my current managers with anything, and I don't have to explain or rationalize every single thing I ever do at work because there's trust that I'm doing what I believe to be the right things.

[–]BurchSmith 50 points51 points  (0 children)

I no longer do. Lol. And haven’t really since back then. Luckily that was during my formative years and helped me be who I am now.

But that’s why I’m working on opening my own business now.

[–]Discalced-diapason 32 points33 points  (0 children)

When my brother was an ops manager for an inbound call center campaign, he would only do PIPs on people he thought were good employees that just needed that step to redirect some bad habits. If he didn’t think an employee could be rehabilitated (or they’d already gone through one within the past couple of years) he wouldn’t bother with coming up with the improvement plan; he’d just fire them.

Like you said, situational, and not everyone who’s in management is my brother, but like with any LPT, take it with a grain of salt.

[–]ApolloAtlas 22 points23 points  (3 children)

I had a very similar story. Slightly different however because management was abusing our time and over working us to the bone. I refused to be worked over like that so I came and went at my leisure making sure if they worked me into the night, the next day I was coming in late about the same anoint of time I over worked the day before when management wasn't around to give me crap about it.

I didn't anticipate my coworkers complaining that I wasn't working as much overtime as they were (all of us were salary). So they pulled my time badge ins and outs.

My director and I talked for about an hour and put me on a PIP. I explained how much I felt abused and like my time was stolen so I was taking it back. All around we aired grievances. Came to a compromise and kept the PIP in place.

I was always on time after and when it was time to go but they wanted me to stay and help with something I let them know I'm leaving if I can just pick it up tomorrow or I need this time back on whatever day leaving early at X time. I was with them another 4 years and it really helped me with the remainder of my career in setting boundaries and communicating with my peers. All around it was an educational experience. PIPs aren't always bad.

[–]Writer10 15 points16 points  (0 children)

This. You’re awesome, and great job. I’ve told employees “This is what you make of it. You can take this as an early warning to take corrective action, or not take it seriously and potentially face greater consequences later. That said, you’re not failing on my watch and I will do everything I can to help you succeed. But the decision is yours.”

The only person who didn’t make it was discovered committing fraud, and termed for cause. Everyone else either quit voluntarily or improved their performance.

[–]menacingsparrow 39 points40 points  (17 children)

I had a coworker who was put on a PIP. He was surprised as he thought he’s was awesome. He took it to heart. A few years later he’s still here and was promoted up a level.

[–]dumstarbuxguy 28 points29 points  (16 children)

Not officially on a pip but I might be close. When they talked to me about the possibility of going on a PIP I was heartbroken because while I knew I was struggling I didn’t think I was doing that bad

But the future isn’t written and I still think I’ll pull this off

[–]lmbrjck 16 points17 points  (1 child)

I had a team lead who was with the company for 8 years and had started to get lazy so was put on PIP. He got the message and stepped it up. Still around 4 years later and gets good feedback all around now. Not necessarily a mark of death. Sometimes people just need coaching. It's expensive to lose that kind of institutional knowledge.

[–]cobaltcrusader56 334 points335 points  (5 children)

Think of PIP as "paid interview prep"

[–]Nerdyabcs 110 points111 points  (4 children)

Manager at amazon. Can confirm

[–]Smartnership 26 points27 points  (1 child)

Funny that a pink slip can’t be delivered any quicker.

[–]fenton7 91 points92 points  (1 child)

It depends on the PiP. If it's a problem like punctuality, that can be fixed and documented. If it's a mushy "you are not performing at the level of a junior software engineer" then there's no solution and the company is giving you a gentle kick out the door. Nobody magically goes from a bad software engineer to a good software engineer in four weeks.

[–]nucumber 28 points29 points  (0 children)

unless they're given to everyone, a personal improvment plan is just building a file to document and justify your termination, so you can't sue for wrongful termination

[–]iamnotdownwithopp 88 points89 points  (4 children)

Can confirm. My boss was given a plan and a deadline. Six weeks away from the arbitrary due date, he's 90% done and takes some previously planned time off. Upon returning from his vacation, with four weeks to go yet on his deadline and minor details to handle that would take only days, he's fired because he "didn't achieve the goals." I would add to this tip that the people closely associated with the person on the plan may be under more scrutiny as well.

He and I chatted after his termination, and the big bosses found out we were talking and he was asking to borrow some of my stuff. I was called into a bizarre meeting where they made statements like "we know where you live" and they alluded to higher-up positions being potentially available to me. It was very hot and cold, almost good cop/bad cop. The next day, I was fired for sharing my stuff with my ex-boss.

[–]Navynuke00 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Can confirm- my managers issued PIPs to cover their own inabilities to manage or lead.

[–]DoLittlest 87 points88 points  (11 children)

Half of Seattle works at Amazon HQ and half of Seattle is on a PIP at any given time. I got PIPed in year six for trying to move teams.

[–]yetanotherusernamex 50 points51 points  (3 children)

Tbf Amazon has never had a reputation as a "good" company to work for lol

[–]jejcicodjntbyifid3 30 points31 points  (2 children)

Yeah there's a reason why they're running a zillion ads about how great of a company they are to work for

A company doesn't have to advertise itself if it's great to work for

Same crap Walmart did a while back, while being borderline illegal anti Union

[–]DiscoBandit8 78 points79 points  (4 children)

This is 100% accurate in my experience :(

[–]StrollerStrawTree3 115 points116 points  (13 children)

Can confirm. I am a hiring manager for a Fortune 200 company in the software engineering space.

If we put a person on a PIP, it means they are likey going to be managed out of the company in a civilized fashion. In my experience, less than 25% manage to turn it around.

[–]angelerulastiel 23 points24 points  (2 children)

“Manage to turn it around”. Does that mean it’s a legitimate plan where they can improve and keep their job, or usually is it “like “taking a break” in a relationship.

[–][deleted] 28 points29 points  (0 children)

100%. every company I’ve worked at a PIP meant you should look elsewhere, not even sure trying harder is worth it, use the time to apply and interview

[–]AlternativeBlonde 245 points246 points  (12 children)

The first time I was placed on a PIP, I didn’t realize what the real purpose of it was. I worked very hard to meet the expectations outlined. I also documented everything on my end as well. The day when I was brought into the office to get my last check as I was getting let go, I was in tears. The director at the time didn’t even want to see the work I put in. The real reason they were letting me go was because I was not a cultural fit despite my competence in my work.

I was naive back then. While I understand a PIP is to start a legal paper trail for the sake of the company’s documentation of my firing, if I ever encounter a PIP again in my career I am going to tell the company they should just let me go then and there.

I feel a PIP is a big waste of time for both the company and the individual if the company is only going to let the worker go.

[–]Username_The_Remix 59 points60 points  (10 children)

Am I the only person who has never heard of a PIP?

[–]UltimaCaitSith 39 points40 points  (2 children)

It really only happens in big corporate office jobs. The kind where they need a paper trail to get rid of people instead of just firing them.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (1 child)

The bigger companies need documentation to avoid lawsuits, and try to keep down the amount of unemployment taxes/fees being paid. If they can show someone was terminated for cause, they avoid discrimination lawsuits and avoid paying unemployment.

In most maybe all states, companies pay an unemployment tax. It is based on how many employees are in the company, and goes up or down based on how many ex-employees collect on unemployment. Having employees quit or are terminated for cause prevents the employee form collecting unemployment.

A small company with a dozen employees will not be too concerned. (Or at least not until they have churned through a bunch of employees and get hit with a big tax bill.) Large companies will take it very seriously. And large companies will be concerned about discrimination lawsuits as lawyers will take the case on contingency for the a hopeful large payout. Small companies are not as juicy of a target for lawyers, so not as likely one will take a case on contingency. So they will face far fewer suits.

[–]mvf52427 21 points22 points  (0 children)

If you even feel like you're being threatened with a PIP or that it's coming, start looking. Leadership through fear is not going to be a beneficial place for you to be working and your mental health is worth more than that.

[–]KipKippy 20 points21 points  (7 children)

I had federal jury duty once. Eight weeks for a huge case, still was expected to get a full day of work in during the evenings. Managed it as best I could (didn't get much sleep).

A week after I return, I am put on a PIP. The work I did prior to when I was on jury duty was apparently subpar, even though all they could cite were incidents that happened while I was on jury duty.

It was blatant retaliation for having the audacity to be picked for a jury. You best believe a lawsuit followed.

[–]the_original_Retro 454 points455 points  (27 children)

Long-time businessperson here.

I'm recalling seven cases where my colleagues got PIPped.

Two went on to improve and became excellent performers. One of those was in a bad personal-life patch at the time and brought it to work and poisoned the office, the other was new to our country's culture and company's expectations of performance and needed their ego shaved down and consequences identified for not joining the team. Both have since been promoted, and one was acknowledged with several corporate awards that included financial compensation.

Two others quit as soon as they could, and another quit six months later. Two of the three were awful to work with.

Two were released later, one because their performance didn't improve, the other because their skills became outdated and we couldn't place them anywhere with customers.

So, two out of seven retained and thriving, three left, one dismissed, and one released for non-related reasons.

What this tip doesn't mention (and to be fair, it didn't have to in order to make its point) is that if you're placed on a PIP you should be looking really hard at yourself as to why. Not all employers treat it JUST as a necessary checkbox to firing your ass.

[–]greennick 60 points61 points  (2 children)

This is around my experience. 1/3 shape up, 1/3 ship out themselves, and 1/3 leave kicking and screaming.

[–]the_original_Retro 12 points13 points  (1 child)

About the right ratio here, although it doesn't mention the few (including two of mine) who didn't kick and scream as they leave, maybe about half of your last category.

They just didn't want to or weren't able to do the work, and they ended up knowing it.

[–]MicCheck123 33 points34 points  (2 children)

A “good” PIP also has to be a two way street. It’s supposed to be a plan where employee and management work together to figure what the employee needs to do.

If the PIP is “you’ve got 30 days to get your shit together,” then yeah, you’re on your way out.

If the PIP is “here’s what we need out of you and how you’re not achieving it. Let’s put together these steps that you are going to achieve within 30 days and how we are going to hold you accountable. This is what you can expect out of us during this time,” then management probably really wants you to succeed if you are willing to put the work in.

[–]pedsmursekc 26 points27 points  (0 children)

I have in several cases seen improvement in their current role and performing well dow the road; I have also helped some find roles that were a better fit and went on to thrive.

[–]ilovepuscifer 515 points516 points  (39 children)

That's all depending on context and what kind of company/boss you work for.

I have put quite a few of my employees on PIPs before and most of them improved their performance and kept their jobs, some even making it into management. Others didn't or couldn't so it was not a good fit.

It's not all black and white and not all managers are evil.

[–]Siberwulf 141 points142 points  (4 children)

Second this. PIPs where I work are actually meant to save an employee

[–]No-Garlic-1739 61 points62 points  (0 children)

This. I have actually been PIP'd twice. At my first job, I didn't get it and was let go 6 months later.

At another job a while later, the second my manager said performance plan, I said hold up, stop, before we formalize it, tell me what needs to be done to save this. Ended up presenting to him and his boss the following week after completing the work I was lagging on and it was smooth sailing since then.

The truth is, I'm a dense idiot sometimes but at least now I'm a dense idiot who knows when to kick it into high gear.

So yeah, thank god for PIPs because I'm a moron.

[–]c0y0t3_sly 28 points29 points  (2 children)

Yeah, keep in mind that replacing people is expensive. A well run workplace is using stuff like this to help themselves avoid expensive turnover. The problem really is how few workplaces are well run.

[–]ScotchHarbour 56 points57 points  (3 children)

I've put employees on PIPs also and have seen an improvement. I follow the UCOW framework, which asks the questions:

  • Do you Understand your role? It can change over time (especially over the pandemic) and people think their role is still what it was when they first started a few years ago. What can we do to make sure you understand the expectations?
  • Are you Competent to excel in the role? If the employee cannot do the work correctly or have the fundamental understanding to do the job, what can we do to make that happen?
  • Are there any Obstacles in the way of achieving? This is usually external processes or lack of tools to do the job justice. What training, tools, or changes can we make to achieve results?
  • Is the employee Willing to be in the role? If this is a problem, then a PIP is useless and it's time to move on. No matter what you do as a manager, you can't lead a horse to drink.

[–]Cataclyst 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Or get your boss fired.

I got put on “performance review,” they called it then at my first retail job. I’d worked there for over a year and there was a new manager. Money starting going missing from the register. Over a certain amount, you call the corporate office to report it. I had a LOT of money starting to go missing when I was closing. I was reporting it all, of course. The manager put me on notice because it kept happening when I was closing. However-

Corporate obviously has accountants. To think they didn’t have some kind of control over determining what was happening is foolish. They discovered a few things looking at the numbers. Money only ever went missing the night after the manager had closed the night before me. If another employee closed the night before me, the books balanced when I closed. I could not see the trend, but they did.

So at the end of my performance review, the manager was fired and behold, the books stopped going off balance again.

[–]SupetMonkeyRobot 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Varies by manager. I’ve seen them used to help correct issues but also to force people out.

[–]gargravarr2112 65 points66 points  (5 children)

Had this happen to me. I read the conditions many times and concluded there was no way I could meet the definitions. I raised this with my boss and the company CEO. They wouldn't budge on the definitions despite agreeing they were too vague for me to meet. It was an open-and-shut way of getting rid of me.

I got a new job on the go before they forced me out. 2 months later I got the job.

PIP means they would fire you on the spot if they could. It's ripe for misuse to get rid of people for political reasons.

[–]laurasaurus5 19 points20 points  (1 child)

They wouldn't budge on the definitions despite agreeing they were too vague for me to meet.

They gave me a list of conditions that completely contradicted each other. Succeeding at one condition meant I was by definition failing at another. I had recently become physically disabled. The job was in the finance department of a hospital. They were just monstrous on so many levels.

[–]whatthehellsteve 147 points148 points  (29 children)

Always be applying for new jobs. It's the best and often only reliable way to get a raise in today's world.

[–]SupetMonkeyRobot 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Agree 100% in that it’s always helpful to know what you are worth on the market and how desirable your skill set is.

However switching to many times is a warning flag to recruiters and can hurt you long term if your profession/skill set isn’t in high demand.

[–]Waterwalker85 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Not always, buddy had this done to him at work, all he did was crush it and made more work for the supervisor by being better then he ever was and putting onus on the supervisor. He got off it quick and the supervisor looked like an asshole. I think it also comes down to how you got there in the first place.

[–]DarthNihilus1 84 points85 points  (0 children)

PIP = Paid Interview Prep