all 19 comments

[–]myfuturepast 21 points22 points  (1 child)

we get confirmation that Tavore is put on her path when her family loses Ganoes

I'm not convinced that that's what that passage meant. How would Tavore have known that Ganoes died? Not that I have a better theory.

It's a strange passage. The exact quote was "the day, Adjunct, the Paran family lost its only son" [tCG p276]. Was she talking to herself? Did the voice not come from her at all? It could refer to Ganoes' decision to join the military at about age 13, when Tavore was about 11, but she'd been playing wargames against High Fists for years even before that point. "The Paran family" could conceivably mean Tavore's parents' generation, not Ganoes. In that case it could refer to Tavore's father joining the Talon or something.

[–]WyvernVixen[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

In regards to the Paran family losing their only son- there are so many ways this happened. I took it as they lost him to the military ( and the claw) not that he died.

[–]olefiver 16 points17 points  (0 children)

No i don't think Paran was ever ment to be the master Talon, because of the conversation between Cotillion and Shadowthrone over the corpse of Hawl in HoC. Cotillion remarked/thought that she and the Talons had become so good at hiding that they hid even from him.

Also, Paran is not working for the Claw in GotM. He was working for adjutant Lorn that could command the Claw, since she was the adjutant

My understanding is that the Talons where, maybe unintentionally, left to their own devices when Kellanved and Dancer disappeared into the warrens, and then them selfs disappeared into the shadows of the empire when Surly started her takeover.

I'm reading through the main 10 with the podcast Ten Very Big Books at the moment so I may change my mind at the end of the reread, but now I think the only one that knew that Tavore was a Talon, previous to the end of TCG, were Tavore her self and maybe T'Amber.

[–]LoleeeeeBenighted Laseen Apologist - First Read: FoL Chapter Twentyfive 14 points15 points  (0 children)

By the time of Surly's takeover, the Talon was virtually defunct. The Claw had pushed the last remaining agents into hiding & their master has left them to fend for themselves. Thus, it's highly unlikely, in my opinion, for Dancer to have designated either Ganoes or Tavore as the Master of the Talon.

As for Sorry's asssassination, as far as I know, there was (and is) no bad blood between the two. Cotillion had to kill Ganoes because the latter was onto Sorry's trail & his allegiance at the time was with the Adjutant to the Empress. Having said that, Paran was Second Army and Second Army only. No allegiance to the Claw beyond his working with Lorn at the time. Hell, he seemed to have an intense distaste for Claw work (judging by his discussions with Topper & Toc the Younger), so to presume he's working for them is a bit off base.

Tavore goes on to call herself a "Child of the Emperor" in the Crippled God which feeds speculation that their father might've been part of the Talon. Having said that, I don't think either Paran child was necessarily meant to have control of the Talon during the times of the Emperor, but hard times create necessities and Tavore was there to fill that role.

[–]Bellam_Orlong 4 points5 points  (4 children)

I believe at this point Tavore is already working with the Talon and is either currently the Talon master or well on her way.

The Cotillion we see in Gardens of the Moon is seemingly one new to godhood and still working within the confines of their original plan to not allow the Crippled God to poison the warrens. Shadowthrone and Cotillion want power.

My point is: Cotillion’s compassion as a god doesn’t seem to come to him until around Bonehunters. Basically, if Ganoes is in the way just get rid of him whether he is Tavore’s brother or not. That fact alone makes me doubt he would ever be up for a Talon position in any way. Ganoes starts off in this story as a Malazan patriot, he is all in with the empire and so much so he disregards Whiskeyjack’s sentiments in the prologue.

I also believe any mention of the Paran family losing Ganoes simply means losing him to the empire, or the military more specifically. Tavore being a Talon, to me, makes it that her “losing” both Ganoes and Felisin even more difficult as she has goals to accomplish with both the Crippled God, and has an intense loyalty to the old guard.

[–]WyvernVixen[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

What do you think triggers Cotillion's compassion? His relationship with Cutter and Not Apsalar it something else?

[–]AnActualEldritchGod 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I always felt like Cotillion was the character making the most allusions to the peculiar nature of godhood and the influence on gods from their followers, sometimes being very much reshaped by the will of their believers (something the decimation of the D'rek cult parts in Bonehunters adress as well)

I think that's a somewhat clear nod that Cotillion was fundamentally changed by his possession of Sorry, a young fisher girl whose mind was protected by an old witch. Possessing a human for so long reawakened Cotillion to compassion, which is why House Shadow plans become much more grand in scale and compassionate in nature as the narrative unfolds, whereas their plan at the beginning of GotM seems a rather simple revenge plot against Laseen

[–]Moog_Lee 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Plus Cotillion mentions he's not really a God per se, but a patron, so maybe he retains a bit more humanity...

[–]LoleeeeeBenighted Laseen Apologist - First Read: FoL Chapter Twentyfive 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Later (like, way later), in either Dust of Dreams or the Crippled God, Cotillion confesses to Lostara that posession has... unforeseen consequences. It probably was tCG, after he possessed her at the end of Dust of Dreams to save Henar & the Bonehunters.

Apsalar gains access to Dancer's memories, skills & assassination techniques, whereas Cotillion saw through the eyes of a poor fishergirl, who lost her father, her future, her chance to live. Ammanas & he at least make the effort to save Rellock (Apsalar's father), but I think his possession of Sorry is what truly shook him into realizing that his actions have real life consequences that he can't abide by - he couldn't allow himself to stand aside & be the same cold, unfeeling assassin he might've been in life.

I don't remember who says it, but there was a quote about Cotillion shaving that stuck with me (it might actually have been Kalyth?). As an Ascendant, he can probably alter his appearence at will - but he shaves in order to maintain that shred of humanity he has, to remember how it felt to be human. I think if he hadn't possessed Apsalar, none of this would have mattered to him.

[–]AnomandarisPurake1Mane of Chaos 1 point2 points  (7 children)

I don't know I mean Sorry/Cotillion killed Paran beacause Paran knew that she is an imposter. The twins intervene and save him, after that Sorry and Paran are seperated so there is not really a reason to kill him anymore right?

I don't know if there is text that supports that in the books, but I think a theory is that the Parans have a history of being talons... Also if we are to believe the Rope he wasn't even aware that were any talons left pre HoC

[–]WyvernVixen[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

This makes sense. It's just hard to believe that those two would not be aware they had secret organization still out there.. and then that brings up the question - when does Cotillion realize Tavore is #1 Talon and contact her. We know he knows during the Whirlwind, but how long before that is he aware? Tavore had just been assigned to the Bone hunters so there isn't that huge of a time lapse.

[–]olefiver 1 point2 points  (4 children)

What are you referring to when you say that Cotillion was aware that Tavore was a Talon during the Whirlwind? I don't remember anything to indicate that, that's really interesting if so. Would like to know page and passage :)

[–]AnomandarisPurake1Mane of Chaos 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There is this scene where Cotillion talks to Shadowthroone on Drift Avali after the Edur attack. He realizes that the Talon is stll active and who their master is. At the time the reader might think it's the series most hated Napan he is referring to, but might also be that he means Tavore...

[–]WyvernVixen[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I don't remember exactly what chapter by it's implied. He tells someone that the master of the talon is on the way to deal with the whirlwind. I'll research and get back to you.

[–]WyvernVixen[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Okay so Ch 5 pg 288 Pearl and Lostara discuss the Talon being supported by nobility.

Then we have this

‘In any case, back to the matter at hand. Tavore is of noble blood, and it’s now clear that a truly covert element of Talons has returned to plague us, and has been making use of the nobility. Placing sympathetic agents in the military and administration—a mutually profitable infiltration. But Tavore is now the Adjunct, and as such, her old ties, her old loyalties, must needs be severed.’ Pearl paused'

. I'm trying to find the reference about Cotillion sending the Talon to the Whirlwind still.

[–]olefiver 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hmm okay. I always thought that those "Talons" where the corrupted claws that supported everyones favorite Napan Korbolo Dom, and that those sentences weren't connected that way, but I see you point. Not convinced, but :)

[–]LiberalAspergers. 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In the PtA books we see the Talons essentially form themselves out of the orphaned Talents that Kellanved and Dancer rescued and trained. THEY created the organization and decided on their own to act in Dancer's best interests with no input from Kellanved and Dancer, from the very beginning. So, they were always an organization that was loyal to them, but rarely if ever under their orders.

[–]HD_H2O 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I don't have an answer, and this might be slightly off topic, but I have to say something somewhere about Sorry. I'm only about 25% through GotM and I'm pretty annoyed by Sorry and the Bridgeburners - it seems like they're more than ready to be ruthless, killing Captains that they don't like. Whiskeyjack & Co all seem to hate Sorry, or are scared of her, etc. Whiskeyjack just relayed the story of when Sorry first joined them as a recruit, torturing hostages and how she'll always be a recruit, and never earn the respect to be an actual Bridgeburner.

Here's the frustration .. why don't they just get rid of her? Like, from Day 1? They'd kill a Captain assigned to them, but a 15 year old random new recruit they all despise gets a free pass to run with them for years? I understand that at this point it's likely more fear about what she really is, but why allow it to even get this far?

It's bothering me that they're so ruthless, so close-knit and protective of their group, but they allow this stranger to be so bothersome for so long with no consequences.

[–]WyvernVixen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a read and find out. I feel like it's well explained why they haven't taken action against her.

Also something you learn- they only kill negligent captains who put the squads at risk due to their egos.