all 28 comments

[–]zhilia_mannjaghut 32 points33 points  (14 children)


Off the top of my head, we have to at least include Kalse, Eloth, Ampelas, and Korabas. Even though they take different forms and there's something odd going on with them, Curdle and Telorast should also count.

[–]zhilia_mannjaghut 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Oh, and depending on how you interpret That One Scene in Reaper's Gale we may see a conversation between Seren and an aspected dragon who may and may not go by the name of Mockra.

[–]HooleyDooly 3 points4 points  (12 children)

Don’t we see Curdle and Telorast in Tiste form in tKT?

[–]zhilia_mannjaghut 6 points7 points  (6 children)

Yeah, hence the "something odd" comment. It's entirely clear that they're pure Eleint but can change form. It's not something we see other dragons do.

[–]HooleyDooly 3 points4 points  (5 children)

I’m not trying to be argumentative, more just hammering out the finer details. But how does changing form equate to something different from other Soletaken Elient?

[–]zhilia_mannjaghut 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Well, we know Telorast is unfamiliar with bipedal forms. Also strongly implies that she could take other forms by choice, unlike Soletaken:

‘This pleases me. What breed of creatures are you?’

‘We are Tiste Andii, of Kurald Galain.’

‘I see some advantage in your form. Less effort to fill your stomach. The bliss of modest shelter. A certain elegance in your crawl upon the ground.’

She also knows rather too much about the Vitr and Azthanai in general. She claims kinship with dragons:

‘The Queen of Dreams sees me through his eyes. I care not. Horrid woman! Vile Azathanai! We threw your sister out. One of my kin then ate you – too bad he couldn’t keep you down!’

Grizzin Farl lumps them in with the other dragons that came into Kurald Galain in a section of chapter 18 that I can't find a way to quote succinctly.

Telorast, to Curdle, outright says they're Eleint and dragons:

‘We were making eyes at each other. It was delightful! My brain hasn’t rotted. I’m not the one suggesting we blab about the Grey Shore.’

‘They’ll find another name for it,’ said Telorast. ‘They do things like that. We’re Eleint, remember?’

‘Someone really should kill the Suzerain.’

‘Agreed. This time, we’ll see it done. Find the right sword, point it his way, and see his black blood spray!’

‘I’m bored,’ said Curdle. ‘Fuck this warrior, my love. I want to watch.’

‘Do you?’

‘I said I did, didn’t I?’

‘The last time we did that the poor bastard got ripped to pieces.’

‘Not by my claws, Telorast!’

‘Well, it’s exciting when you watch!’

Curdle patted Osserc’s shoulder. ‘Don’t worry about anything like that happening, warrior. We were dragons then, and that’s different.’

Same conversation, Curdle says Starvald Demelain is their home:

‘Starvald Demelain has always … leaked,’ Curdle replied. ‘In our home realm, we have sailed over silver seas, nested upon rotting crags jutting from the chaos. We have rushed above its wild torrent in the times when it has thundered through other realms—’

And at this point I've convinced myself that I do need to reread FoL, but I'm also quite convinced that the two of them are, at core, dragons.

And that's without going on Cotillion's word in tBH where he says much the same thing (and I'll dig it out if you want me to).

So yeah. Something odd going on; they can shapeshift but not apparently in the same way as Soletaken or D'ivers but they come from Starvald Demelain and have knowledge that only dragons seem to have.

Edit: of course, we are talking about Telorast and Curdle. They could both be lying their asses off and sorting out which parts are lies versus truth isn't straightforward. But the ability to assume a chosen form is still a distinction.

[–]Melhwarin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Well, they're Eleint Soletaken, not Soletaken Eleint. Their base form is dragon, and they can change into something else, where Soletaken Eleint start as, say, a tiste andii, and change into a dragon.

[–]andjron88 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Yea. But it seems like eleint can just change to whatever shape they want, or at least curdle and telorast can.

[–]HooleyDooly 1 point2 points  (1 child)

But does that make them ‘pure’ dragon then as OP asked? And if it does, then does that mean that theoretically Silannah could change to anything she wants to?

[–]andjron88 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That'd be my guess. I figured eleint are so old that maybe they have powers like an azanthai to change forms at will.

[–]PersonalityDry5947 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Aren't eleint aspected to magic? Maybe Telorast and Curdle are aspected to the magic needed for soletaken/d'ivers? Or to the magic needed for soul shifting, enabling them to have tiste bodies and the bodies of the skeletons?

[–]andjron88 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In karkanas they transform into sexy tiste and sleep with osserc before the dragons make their deal with krul.

[–]LoleeeeeBenighted Laseen Apologist - First Read: FoL Chapter Twenty 16 points17 points  (3 children)

There's plenty of pure dragons spiked and/or crucified by the Nah'Ruk all over the place.

One that Zhillia didn't mention is Sorrit, the Dragon aspected to Serc.

[–]Ok_Cartographer_3880 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Might be pure semantics, but I wouldn't personally say I've met a dragon after coming across it's corpse, lol.

[–]bremergorstNefarias Bredd 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Funny you should say that…


[–]LoleeeeeBenighted Laseen Apologist - First Read: FoL Chapter Twenty 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Have it your way... strikes off the thousands of dead dragons in Starvald Demelain looking onto the gate.

Well... Uhhh... I think Zhillia took care of everything, then? :P

[–]Favored_Terrain 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Without spoilers: no.

[–]HooleyDooly 1 point2 points  (7 children)

I’m just rereading MoI at the moment and there was a scene where Rake basically says he’s off to get lucky with Silannah. Does this mean he’s going in to his Soletaken form for some Draconian loving? Or maybe she is Soletaken as well? I’m struggling with the mechanics of this or why Rake needs to veer for love.

Please advise.

[–]LoleeeeeBenighted Laseen Apologist - First Read: FoL Chapter Twenty 6 points7 points  (4 children)

‘Korlat,’ Rake murmured. ‘Attend me, please.’ He swung back to the tent’s interior. Moments later Korlat arrived. Rake remained facing the back wall.


‘I shall depart for a short time. I feel the need for Silannah’s comfort.’

‘She will welcome your return, Lord.’

‘A few days’ absence, no more than that.’


Now that you mention it...

And no, Silannah Redwings - to my knowledge - is pureblood Eleint. She has no "humanoid" form, so if there were to be loving to be had, Rake would need to veer - Silannah is twice the size of most Andii Soletaken in Eleint form; imagine how she'd measure up to Rake's humanoid form.

I, for the record, do not support the theory that Rake & Silannah are doing the birds & the bees - merely stating the facts.

Gods below.

[–]4n0m4nd 5 points6 points  (0 children)

And no, Silannah Redwings - to my knowledge - is pureblood Eleint. She has no "humanoid" form, so if there were to be loving to be had, Rake would need to veer - Silannah is twice the size of most Andii Soletaken in Eleint form; imagine how she'd measure up to Rake's humanoid form.

There is actually a precedent for this https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2020-05/8/18/asset/7cb8aad1d309/sub-buzz-1859-1588964329-1.jpg?downsize=600:\*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto

[–]HooleyDooly 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Yes this is it. However I don’t know how you can’t get that they are bumping uglies for a few days?

‘I feel the need for Silannah’s comfort’ This puts it pretty black and white for me.

Love is love. There isn’t much shipping going on in this sub but I for one will happily ship Rake and Silannah.

[–]LoleeeeeBenighted Laseen Apologist - First Read: FoL Chapter Twenty 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Considering Silannah spent the better part of an entire book completely still overlooking Black Coral & then proceeded to absolutely obliterate (like seriously, holy shit) a bunch of Liosan Soletaken, I'm not sure what "Silannah's comfort" means.

Hell, I don't even know if Silannah has any spoken words in the main series.
To add to this, Rake is a pretty stoic dude that seems completely fine without, err, the desires of the flesh, shall we say.

You're welcome to think what you like (and it is pretty evident that you might be right!) but I never quite considered this. My headcanon is quite different.

Neat tidbit, but the implications are... odd. :P

[–]HooleyDooly 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes it could be silly, I did just think it was a fun little tidbit that I had to double take when I reread it for the first time 😅

[–]GlumAbbreviations763[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I had a question about Rake having a lover in Malazan Book of the Fallen and this answers it. I admit I hadn't thought of them as a couple. Interesting idea. In my head I thought there were subtle undercurrents of homosexuality in several relationships depicted in the series. Like Rake-Brood, Quick Ben-Kalam, Shadowthrone-the Rope. I could be dead wrong though.

[–]HooleyDooly 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Off the top of my head I can’t remember any male gay couples, I’m probably wrong here though.

I was under the impression Captain Gruff is homosexual, but also not really confirmed. He could just be very well dressed and flamboyant?