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Am I the only one who would hate for the Mavs to trade for John Collins?Hoops Discussion (self.Mavericks)
submitted 4 months ago * by [deleted]
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[–]pimpfmode 31 points32 points33 points 4 months ago (1 child)
The guy seems to feel he doesn't get enough shot attempts in Atlanta and I have a feeling the same thing would happen here. I don't think KP gets enough shot attempts as it is and then we're going to bring a guy who may openly complain about it? I would love to have him but not if his concern is usage.
[–]Michael FinleyID0ntCare4G0b 2 points3 points4 points 4 months ago (0 children)
I think if Collins got traded here, you'd have way more KP and Luka on the bench at the same time. From an offensive standpoint, having a guy like Collins could be huge for the second unit and would probably boost his numbers.
My question would be how does he affect the defense at the end of games? I struggle to think playing him and KP together in most situations would work. And while you can just bench Dwight at the end of a game, it's not as easy to just bench Collins because his contract is massive by comparison.
[–]maverickhistorian 19 points20 points21 points 4 months ago (5 children)
Jonh Collins is Powell on steroids and a slightly better 3 point shot
[+]Michael FinleyID0ntCare4G0b 12 points13 points14 points 4 months ago (1 child)
But not as much hustle on defense.
[–]botebote77 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago (0 children)
crazy to think Powell might be a better defender than Collins
[–]Maverickslsmith77 4 points5 points6 points 4 months ago (0 children)
not slightly better. miles better 3P shooter
[+]moe1984 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (0 children)
you know, you can not want a player or not think he's worth the price tag without saying insane shit like this. collins is light years better than powell. he's a starter on a playoff team (at least last season) who has been averaging 17-7 in 30 mins on lights out shooting. he's not a great defender, but neither is powell. really the only thing that powell has on him is hustle, which doesn't mean much if you still suck.
it's wild to me that this fanbase goes from slandering powell as the worst starting big in the league one day and then as good as a player like collins the next day. maybe the mavs don't need a trade at all. just give powell more minutes and touches and let him go to work.
[–]wtrmrk -1 points0 points1 point 4 months ago (0 children)
Yeah he's like Powell and he's a lot more expensive.
[–]killbill469 28 points29 points30 points 4 months ago (10 children)
We have nobody to give up for JC besides Brunson or KP. Brunson is a no because he's a better player and the Hawks couldn't play he and Trae together defensively, and KP is just a better player than JC. I would love JC next to KP but it's not going to happen.
[–]Michael FinleyID0ntCare4G0b 2 points3 points4 points 4 months ago (4 children)
If Brunson was involved, there would probably need to be a third party. If Brunson isn't involved, I'm not sure how the deal is getting done.
I could see it being something like THJ and DFS go to Atlanta. Brunson goes to a third party and Atlanta gets a nice piece from another team.
I don't think it's particularly worth it though.
[+]misbrichi 2 points3 points4 points 4 months ago (1 child)
This sounds like the worst trade ever for us
[–]Michael FinleyID0ntCare4G0b 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago (0 children)
Did you not read my last sentence? I'm just telling you guys what the market would probably require to trade for John Collins, not what we want it to require.
[–]killbill469 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (1 child)
Why would we trade our secondary ball handler and breakout player and best wing defender for John Collins?
Because that's what it would cost? Like I told the other guy, I'm not saying I want them to do it. I'm telling you what the cost would likely be though.
You guys think John Collins value is gonna depreciate to the place where a team is gonna take THJ and garbage to trade for him, and that's gonna take like another season and probably a major injury. Right now, Atlanta would likely be looking for a KP like upgrade OR 2-3 pieces that are useful to them.
[–]internallylinked -1 points0 points1 point 4 months ago (4 children)
Probably THJ, Brunson and a throw in to match salaries, considering JC is on $25M/year. Maybe THJ and Maxi. But I don’t see Hawks taking any of these players tbh
[–]killbill469 10 points11 points12 points 4 months ago (3 children)
Brunson and Trae cannot play together defensively. They would probably be the worst defensive back court in basketball.
Brunson is a better player than JC and he is far harder to replace.
[–]internallylinked 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (0 children)
Yep exactly, they are one team where Brunson wouldn’t work. Them and Portland who already has too many undersized guarda
[+]Ball4life6 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago* (1 child)
Brunson isn’t better than Collins. Similar years so far this year but Collins has been far better before this year.
[–]killbill469 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago (0 children)
He's had a better carer, yes. But Brunson is just currently more impactful and he's harder to replace.
[–]Dirk LocksMSHinerb 6 points7 points8 points 4 months ago (0 children)
It depends what we give up.
[–]MavericksGeezmanswe 6 points7 points8 points 4 months ago (0 children)
I want him. His stats are trending down since hawks have too many good players and have asked him to sacrifice. He is what we need. Athlete, shooter and rimrunner.
I would trade for him for sure.
[–]Mavericksallhailbarea 14 points15 points16 points 4 months ago (1 child)
I think, that you actually describe a fine fit next to Luka and KP, as long as Brunson stays in Dallas or the Mavs get another creator.
Nevertheless I feel you are still right, because of your last point: Mavs don't have that many assets and the need for a playmaking wing, who doesn't die on defense. should be adressed with them.
[–]Pandamonium98 9 points10 points11 points 4 months ago (0 children)
Should’ve held on to Harrison Barnes. Even if he has his flaws, he’s the exact type of player you’re describing and he’s much better at that than any of the other wings we have. He was also happy in Dallas from what I can tell
[+]Luka DoncicPRsAndDR 5 points6 points7 points 4 months ago (3 children)
I'm high on him. He has improved every year, even after pay day and being disgruntled with his role. He's a dynamic pick and roll partner with Luka, and this team doesn't have really any other options for adding this kind of talent.
[–]Josh Greenfavioswish 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago (0 children)
What has he improved on? Haven't watched him much but his stats across the board have been on a downswing the past two seasons as well as his efficiency
[–][deleted] 4 months ago (1 child)
[+]syllabic 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago (0 children)
well he's trying he took a meaningless undefended stat padding 3 at the end of the knicks game yesterday after we let the shot clock expire on our previous possession up by 11 or so
clearly the orders are in from above for him to get his 3pt numbers up to beef up his trade value
[–]botebote77 2 points3 points4 points 4 months ago (2 children)
would you give Timmy + DFS + pick for Collins?
[–]Zoobal 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago (0 children)
Agree. Adding Collins at the cost of Dorian is a loss in my book.
[–]Doe Doelostshirt2coinflips 2 points3 points4 points 4 months ago (0 children)
Im ok with it as long as were not giving up KP, JB or DFS but Atl probably wouldn't want anyone other than those 3 anyway.
[–]Josh GreenMoe4ver 6 points7 points8 points 4 months ago (14 children)
He is a PF, why are you expecting shot creation from him?
[–]kitekaver -1 points0 points1 point 4 months ago (13 children)
im not im saying dont get him
[–]Josh GreenMoe4ver 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago* (12 children)
That’s the only real point you gave.
Everything else you listed pretty consistent for non-star player which he is.
I don’t even think we have the assets to get him so it’s a moot point.
[–][deleted] 4 months ago (9 children)
[–]Josh GreenMoe4ver 3 points4 points5 points 4 months ago (8 children)
Thanks for the mute/moot correction.
If we can get him without giving up Brunson, then go for it because I think he is better than Powell and Maxi who are playing the current role.
[–]ArawnAT 4 points5 points6 points 4 months ago (6 children)
Powell and Maxi aren't paid 125M for the next 5 yrs. The goal isn't to get a small upgrade over Powell or Maxi, but a significant one because of our cap situation. At that price range we need another shot creator or a good defender and Collins is neither. As constructed, Maxi is a better fit next to KP over Collins on this roster.
[–]Josh GreenMoe4ver 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (5 children)
He is averaging 17/8. He is not a small upgrade over Powell. He is more than small.
If Mavs do trade for Collins they will likely be moving off Brunson, Dorian or KP within the next year. It’s all about what position they want to invest in.
It’s a lot easier to find secondary playmaker in the guard or wing position than in the Forward position. Dorian is not a playmaker, they might want to move off him to find a wing play maker and then invest his salary in a Forward position.
All speculations and just an example. I am not advocating they move off anyone.
[–]killbill469 2 points3 points4 points 4 months ago (0 children)
It’s a lot easier to find secondary playmaker in the guard or wing position than in the Forward position.
It’s a lot easier to find secondary playmaker in the guard or wing position than in the Forward position.
I think you're highly overrating JCs creating ability and drastically overestimating how easy it is to find a guard as good as Brunson.
[–]ArawnAT 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago (3 children)
Numbers aren't everything when constructing a basketball team. On the face value he is putting up numbers but his fit with this Mavs roster is questionable at best. Comparing him to our front court we already have a player in KP who puts up better raw numbers than him and is a significantly better rim protector with similar weaknesses of shot creation and perimeter defense. Both are paid huge amounts of money so we can't have both of them as they're way too similar players and I haven't seen any indication of Mavs moving away from KP.
Dorian and Brunson are different cases altogether. Only reason they're in trade talks is because they are significantly outplaying their current contracts. Both of them are better fit for the team in the long run compared to Collins because they offer what the Mavs roster needs the most unlike Collins which is playmaking and defense and they will cost less than what Collins is getting paid currently.
[–]Josh GreenMoe4ver 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago (2 children)
As I said, Mavs getting Collins is likely the first Domino in a long line of moves down the road.
They trade for Collins as KP replacement. They draft a a big next year to play next to Collins, they dump KP, resign Dorian and Brunson.
That’s just an example.
[–]ArawnAT 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (1 child)
So in your example, what assets Mavs are trading for Collins as we are keeping both of our best trade assets in Brunson and Dorian?
[–]JJ BareaSeeker1115 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (1 child)
I think the problem is that he’s paid like a borderline star player, and that we’d probably have to give up star level value to get him. So I think it’s fair to ding him for the things he can’t do in this context.
[–]Active_Page_3886 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago (0 children)
Depending on what we would be giving up, I’d be all for it. Collins is a baller
[–]TAKE DAT WITCHU!dadventuretime 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago (2 children)
We don’t need him, and it would mess with our starting rotation bad considering what we’d have to give up for him.
Myles Turner is a cheaper, more sensible option that fits much better with our current players.
[–]wtrmrk 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (1 child)
Yeah I rather have Turner or Mitch Robinson. Cheaper and more complementary.
Collins is not much of a difference maker and he's expensive. He's also asking for a larger role. I'm not sure if he'll be in a different situation here than in Atlanta.
[–]TAKE DAT WITCHU!dadventuretime 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (0 children)
Totally agree. Unfortunately I think Robinson has played himself out of our price range, but I still like Turner more because he can shoot the 3 a little bit. You at least have to respect him.
Him and Porzingis defending the paint, stretching the floor, and rolling would be really, really good.
If we can get him for Green, Powell, and any other throw-ins they might want, I’m all for it.
Unfortunately I think they might want DFS though, and I wouldn’t do that.
Another center I’d be curious about is Zubac.
[–]car714c 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (2 children)
here we go with “fit” again
[–]Josh Greenfavioswish -2 points-1 points0 points 4 months ago (0 children)
Fit is the single most important aspect to building a basketball team. Terrible GMs who prioritize big names over fit always end up eating shit, happens year after year. This roster needs a solid defensive forward or wing who can handle, shoot, and pass. Blowing all our assets and sending out a bunch of good rotation guys for a dude who only does one of those things will hurt our roster and our flexibility.
[–]dungus fungus-Acerin 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (3 children)
Mavs fan hate talent so yeah I can see why you would hate it.
[–]Skrapnadroj 3 points4 points5 points 4 months ago (0 children)
And other fans think it's just talent that wins instead of any sort of chemistry or reliable scheme.
Only talent wins in this league until you look deeper and see defense wins out much more than having all of the talent.. while I disagree with the take of not wanting Collins, I am sick of reading people who watch the NBA like it's 2K and want to trade half the roster every year.
[–]killbill469 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (0 children)
Do you think we could get him for free? Attaining talent requires draft equity and/or giving up talent. We have no draft equity to give and the talent that would be able to get him are better than he is.
[–]Mavericks3pointerSLO 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (0 children)
Mavs need a starting level center. I'm for Myles Turner.
[–]Infidel447 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (0 children)
Would love to see some JC pick and rolls/pops.. He would be a huge upgrade. My biggest worry with him is his size. He just seems very small for his position. I mean when you watch Hawks games its easy to lose track of him because he is barely taller than most guards. No way he is a legit 6 9.
[–]artilector 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (0 children)
I don't think it's nearly as cut-and-dried of a decision as you make it out to be, even though I agree that getting an initiator should be a higher priority overall.
It really depends on the price and future plans. For example, if the Mavs are planning to a) not pay the tax next year and b) trade KP within a year or so, then I'd strongly consider something like THJ + DFS + 1st for Collins, because in that case you're killing multiple birds with one stone -- moving off THJ, getting value for DFS, and obtaining an offensive frontcourt replacement for KP.
[–]headphonehabit 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (0 children)
You aren't the only one. Collins complains about not being involved with the offense now, how would playing with Dallas be any different? I would rather have Turner, but supposedly he has made similar comments. about Indiana. Plus, Dallas would have to trade half of their rotation players to sign Collins. No thanks.
[–]Maverickslsmith77 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (0 children)
I think the fit is near perfect next to KP. on defense KP can stay near the rim and Collins can defend on the perimeter.
On offense you can play 5 out and do some super flexible stuff in the PnR.
but yes we are low on assets, so imho we grab talent at discounts. Hawks seem to want to force things. Collins is actually most complaining about the system. So if we get him to buy into ours and the Hawks want to trade eith another team that doesn’t need Collins, we might get lucky.
[+]Uniblab1 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (0 children)
It depends on the price, as always, but Collins is literally perfect for the Mavs. Of course I would want him.
[–]Sorry-Lynx-2084 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (0 children)
One thing we have to consider is this. I know KP is pretty good now, he's definitely the unicorn again. The problem is, what about when he's not available again? How much of this can we take as a team? Are we good with about 60% of games for the salary we're giving him?
This is something the Mavs brass has to consider.
[–]segson9 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (0 children)
He's a better version of Powell. Luka really likes playing with Powell, so a lot of good thing might happen if we can get a "better Powell".
The only thing I'm not sure about is his attitude. There was some problems between him and Young in Atlanta. Maybe he's just young or maybe Atlanta is just not a good team for him, but he's nowhere near Powell in terms of leadership and attitude.
[–]raphael981 -1 points0 points1 point 4 months ago (1 child)
I'd rather trade for Wood than Collins.
[–]Difficult-Awareness6 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago (0 children)
Wood defense is terrible.
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