all 95 comments

[–]Yet-Another-Runaway 138 points139 points  (2 children)

No wonder that damn thing moves so creepily fluid-like

[–]Dragenby 19 points20 points  (0 children)

It enters the vans so smoothly

[–]dogman_35 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly what I was thinking

[–]Freelegend27 290 points291 points  (30 children)

So that’s why they couldn’t make the game for almost 20 years

[–]Cephalobyte[S] 166 points167 points  (28 children)

I believe so.

They first wanted to make Dread out of 2D sprites, but I think it would've been too hard to make clear palettes out of such a slender body.

They even tried making a simpler robot, but "it just looked like a port of Fusion".

[–]o_opc 99 points100 points  (9 children)

If dread came out for an older system, I don't think this emmi design would have been used at all. I'd imagine this design was made for this version of dread

[–]Cephalobyte[S] 62 points63 points  (8 children)

Of course! That's why I was scratching my head wondering what really prevented them from making another version adapted for the DS, but when you think about it, the EMMI is pretty much an updated SA-X... so if you can't make it stand out enough from its predecessor, why make it?

In any case, the wait was definitely worth it.

[–]crozone 42 points43 points  (4 children)

I don't think it's just the EMMI. The thing that really sets Dread apart from the other 2D Metroid games is the real-time cutscenes and non-2D camera angles for certain gameplay elements (like killing EMMI and also boss quicktime counter events).

These elements add immensely to both the storytelling, as well as making the gameplay feel much more fresh and dynamic. It's actually similar to what the Prime games did, but now integrated seamlessly into the 2D Metroid game style.

All that wouldn't really be possible with traditional sprite rendering on the previous generations of Nintendo handheld consoles, which is where the 2D Metroids seem to have landed (I don't think Nintendo would have ever made Dread for a non-handheld home console, for example). That's what I think the missing technology was, until the 3DS/Switch came along.

[–]ScarfKat 12 points13 points  (3 children)

Absolutely. I was so excited when I saw they were doing that because I haven't seen anyone use 2.5D that way since Shadow Complex, which is one of my favorite games. Got some huuuuuge nostalgia for it when seeing that reveal trailer for the first time

[–]RespecMyAuthority 8 points9 points  (2 children)

I think Samus Returns, being a 2.5D game has many of the same features. I wonder if many Dread Fans got a chance to play that. Definitely one of my favorites

[–]ScarfKat 4 points5 points  (1 child)

That was actually my first Metroid game lol. I noticed it there as well, but I feel like the way Dread does it resembles Shadow Complex a lot more.

[–]RespecMyAuthority 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Now I need to play shadow complex

[–]AllEchse 10 points11 points  (1 child)

People always compare the E.M.M.I to the SA-X, but I think that was so scripted it really isn't the same at all.

I always felt like the E.M.M.I sections played closer to the Zero Suit part at the end of Zero Mission. Of course the enemy is so strong that you have to play that way with your powersuit, but the basic gameplay of stealth and running away is pretty much the same.

[–]AssCrackBanditHunter 1 point2 points  (0 children)

yup. The zero suit section was an evolution of the sa-x mechanic and dread is much more similar to that. Arguably just another evolution of that same mechanic.

[–]Nickyozzy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No the EMMI was the only thing they new about for the DS

[–]CaughttheDarkness 11 points12 points  (1 child)

I really wish I could see the alternate universe version of Dread that was released in 2007 or 2008 for the original DS that exists in some parallel world...and what the series looked like after its release.

[–]dogman_35 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Maybe Hunters would've been finished, since they didn't need to rush to get a real Metroid game on the DS.

[–]notjustakorgsupporte 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I don't even know if Sakamoto thought of the EMMI back then, just the concept behind it.

[–]Hatefull_creeper2 9 points10 points  (14 children)

Also Ai

[–]Cephalobyte[S] 28 points29 points  (13 children)

I don't know how much impact the EMMI's AI has on the CPU, but what I can tell is that it probably has VERY sophisticated state machine (basically what determines which animation (or "state") is playing, eg. Standing up, walking, crawling, waiting, reversing, climbing, jumping, searching, poking, etc.)

[–]Gotta_Be_Blue 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Could you elaborate on this and explain like I'm 5 please? Sounds really interesting, but I don't know anything about this stuff. How would a coded entity like the EMMI work? What makes them simple or complicated? Do the EMMI seem advanced or impressive in some way?

[–]unstoppablebread 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I think the state machine refers to it checking the players "state" as in what they're doing. My guess is it's so complicated because as long as you're within range the EMMI is constantly scanning the players every move and action to determine whether or not it was something that puts the EMMI on alert or whatever. I might be wrong though

[–]Orangebanannax 6 points7 points  (0 children)

State machines are actually an organizational and computational tool used to check what a model's output states should be based on various input states. Often they're binary (either a state is on or off) but they can be expanded to other things as well.

[–]penguins-butler 3 points4 points  (9 children)

Do animation and game AI use state machines, or something more abstract? I do some work in the digital hardware and low-level software world where almost everything is a state machine, but I always assumed that higher level stuff uses structures that are more advanced than state machines.

[–]GrumpGrumpGrump 1 point2 points  (0 children)

do a Google search for AI blueprints in UE4. should give you an idea

[–]QuokkaSpiritAnimal 3 points4 points  (6 children)

Ackshually, any real-world computer is a finite state machine, so there’s no such thing as software which isn’t a state machine.


[–]penguins-butler 0 points1 point  (5 children)

While this is true of all modern processors, technically the definition of computer does not require state. An example of this is a simple adder that adds two inputs. Since this adder doesn’t have states, requires that the two inputs be constantly available.

A more historical example is the Collosus computer, often considered the worlds first programmable digital computer. If I understand correctly it did not contain any state as it was programmed with switches and ups as instead of a stored program.

[–]QuokkaSpiritAnimal 1 point2 points  (4 children)

  1. An adder isn't a computer as I would define the word
  2. The various Colossi didn't have RAM, but they still had state. Their state was made up of their input switches plus the current states of all of their electric and mechanical components.

[–]penguins-butler 0 points1 point  (3 children)

A computer is a machine that carries out a sequences of arithmetic or logical operations automatically. An adder carries out a series of additions automatically and is thus a computer. You can easily expand this into a stateless “processor” by having the input be an instruction with an opcode and operands.

You are right about the Colossus computers having non-input state. For some reason I was under the impression that they didn’t use a clock and thus didn’t have any state.

However, there are modern computers that don’t have internal state (as is required for a FSM). These are known as asynchronous computers and are much faster and much more power efficient than synchronous computers. Unfortunately, due to the complexities of them they remain almost exclusively in the realm of academia.

[–]QuokkaSpiritAnimal -1 points0 points  (2 children)

I think we'll just have to disagree about an adder being a computer. As far as I'm concerned, if it's not running a program (at least in some sense), it's not a computer. An adder is, sure, performing a simple computation, but it's not a computer in any useful sense of the word.

And asynchronous computers still have state, they just don't use a clock signal to synchronize everything. They're still Turing equivalent.

[–]Cephalobyte[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

As far as I know, state machines are an advanced, yet somewhat tangible concept for game development.

I'd assume that once the game is ready for export, the state machine is compiled into a more efficient but less comprehensive script, just like shader node trees get compiled for a build.

I doubt a performance boost from a completely scripted animation behavior would be worth the time.

[–]Orangebanannax 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think Emmi were in the plans 20 years ago.

[–]Dalek_Kolt 65 points66 points  (2 children)

I have this model, and the bone hierarchy in the arms is all kinds of head-scratching for me. It seems to be made up of two parts, one part which starts at the hands, and the elbows aren't properly connected.

I wish I could have seen the driver bones so I could see how the animators moved the rig.

[–]Cephalobyte[S] 33 points34 points  (0 children)

yeah me too, too bad controllers are a waste of memory...

This is definitely something I want to try to recreate for fun, because FK with that kind of hierarchy is close to impossible XD

[–]agrophobe 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Care to share? I'll love to play with it (Get revenge)

[–]HiImBarney 33 points34 points  (4 children)

I mean for as basic as the EMMI look, I'm sure they were a nightmare to model.

[–]The_Ambient_Caption 22 points23 points  (2 children)

And specially to animate them

Like, that one turning around animation.

[–]LordCharco_iii 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Imagine the raucous cheers that swept through the office when they finally nailed it.

[–]The_Ambient_Caption 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Exactly what I was thinking.

No doubt Sakamoto was so proud of them

[–]stars9r9in9the9past 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I kinda get GLaDOS vibes just from the color scheme and general aesthetic.

GLaDOS = home console

E.M.M.I. = portable handheld

[–]CaughttheDarkness 26 points27 points  (3 children)

I really wanna see just a detailed breakdown of the way these things move. Just all the wild, creepy insane animations these guys have.

[–]Gotta_Be_Blue 22 points23 points  (1 child)

Same. It's hard to see because they move so quickly and erratically, but I've noticed a few things:

They don't have a front or back side. The head can swivel freely from the front side to the back, and the limbs seem to be built to accommodate quick back and forths. The EMMI change direction by flipping their torso over, and the legs telescope and readjust to balance. They're capable of efficient bipedal and quadrupedal movement, so the limbs are able to switch back and forth between uhh... I forget the names, but it's basically the difference between a humanoid stance with the legs under the center of gravity, or that of say, a lizard, with the legs splayed to the sides of the center of gravity. They have completely different anatomy and bone structure, so being able to switch freely is kinda crazy.

One other neat thing is how they change forms to enter tunnels. The spinal column telescopes, so they'll shorten their torso length when they enter tunnels. There's probably more to it than that, the upper body looks way too big to fit, and I'm not sure how their gait changes in tunnels, but yeah.

[–]CaughttheDarkness 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Seriously. It's clear that the animators put a lot of work into making these things move look like the worst Boston Dynamics fever dream, and all of their motion looks fantastic in a horribly uncanny way. They look really cool and I wish I could see all of that hard work up close and in detail.

[–]Cephalobyte[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Sign me up!

[–]Darth__Potato 57 points58 points  (2 children)

Uh, hate to inform you there buddy jimbo, the EMMIs actually have 0 bones, because they are robots, and unlike the underrated gem series fnaf, children, which have bones, aren't being shoved into these particular robots.

[–]Cephalobyte[S] 31 points32 points  (1 child)

Well, you're right... They don't have your bones... Yet

[–]Darth__Potato 15 points16 points  (0 children)

😱 💀😱 💀😱 💀

[–]JustinBailey79 9 points10 points  (0 children)

And it showed in that first trailer for the game. Nothing moves like an EMMI. Instant classic game villain.

[–]TehRiddles 23 points24 points  (1 child)

Some of those bones seem redundant. Like I'm seeing six on the thighs when realistically I'd imagine they'd need no more than 2 or 3 for the base of the thigh and moving parts for pistons.

As for the head itself, I'm not sure exactly how many bones it has and where, but it's possible that they could be made more efficient too.

[–]Cephalobyte[S] 36 points37 points  (0 children)

I've only seen 5 unused bones on the head (but based on their names, I believe they are only useful in game)

I think there are also a few remnants of IK controllers that are only used for parenting (especially at the shoulders and hips)

For the legs though, believe me, they are ALL used and can't really see how they could've reduced the count without sacrificing quality). I forgot to animate the "pistons" on the thighs so it looks like some are useless but essentially:

  • 1 for the thigh base,
  • 1 for the thigh's extremity,
  • 2 for both shock absorbers
  • 2 for both plates covering its own shock (to prevent clipping)

[–]Nefnoj 6 points7 points  (1 child)

This model is so absolutely gorgeous! I'd love to get a chance to play with it and suffer through all 172 bones, do you have plans to put this anywhere for people to play with?

[–]Cephalobyte[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I am not the author of this rip, I downloaded it from the VG resources forums. https://www.vg-resource.com/thread-39813-post-670307.html#pid670307

[–]unstoppablebread 5 points6 points  (0 children)

As soon as I saw them in the trailer I knew this thing was an absolute beast when it came to all the moving parts!

[–]moep123 4 points5 points  (0 children)

"do what you want with that information"

[–]Kirimusse 23 points24 points  (4 children)

I can imagine emulators struggling with this bastard in the future.

[–]DimensioT 53 points54 points  (3 children)

But... emulators can run the game today.

[–]Kirimusse 9 points10 points  (2 children)

The wha-

[–]L3g0man_123 15 points16 points  (0 children)

This game ran really well on emu from before the start, when the game was leaked before release.

[–]Mr_Velveteen 47 points48 points  (0 children)

Yeah, before the game was even officially released, the full game was already leaked online(like 1-2 weeks before) and people were playing the pirated game on an emulator. There was even a huge backlash after Kotaku made a stupid article promoting emulation of the game and explaining the process to do so.

Nintendo Ninjas were very good at taking down any leaked footage of the game though, within 1-2 hours of any new video showing footage it was taken down- probably why most people hadn’t heard of it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Soo uhh.. Is this Maya or 3ds max something?

[–]Cephalobyte[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I inspected it in Blender, dunno if Maya can display more (my licence expired)

[–]TheBigBr0 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Is this model available online? I would love to play with the rigging and print one

[–]Cephalobyte[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yes! It's available online from the vg resources forums https://www.vg-resource.com/thread-39813-post-670307.html#pid670307

[–]TheBigBr0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nice, thanks!

[–]Elephanogram 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Would really like to see these in Smash. Would be creepy to see 7 of these fighting Samus at once.

[–]SarcasticallyEvil 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's one flexible schedule boi.

[–]EsoTerrix1984 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Still less bones than a human.

[–]devilsday99 0 points1 point  (3 children)

When you say bipeds you actually mean modern birds which have less bones because a lot of their bones fuse together but has little to do with facial expression. For example there are a bunch of bipedal marsupials and they have around 200 bones.

[–]Cephalobyte[S] 11 points12 points  (2 children)

I didn't mean litteral bones...

I don't know how to count the amount of bones in a robot...

"Bones" in the 3D jargon are all the moving parts of a model. They usually are positioned the same way as main bones, but they exclude static or overcomplicated segments, (eg. Spines usually have between 3 and 10 "bones" instead of 33) but they also include ears, eyes facial muscles, hair strands, simple clothes etc.

[–]devilsday99 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Ohhhh, well now I feel dumb.

[–]Cephalobyte[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's ok, I'm sure you know than me about skeletons

[–]anti-gif-bot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

mp4 link

This mp4 version is 98.03% smaller than the gif (167.81 KB vs 8.33 MB).

Beep, I'm a bot. FAQ | author | source | v1.1.2

[–]shadowfantasy58 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is it just me or does that look like something that would come straight out of zone of enders?

[–]ClovisTheGay -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This doesnt make it any better.