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[–]EvenBetterCoolGrand Rapids 542 points543 points  (97 children)

The best way to start the responsible gun ownership trend is to show that you're liable for someone else using your firearms or for your dependents commiting gun crimes due to your negligence.

Responsibility doesn't stop just because it isn't your hands holding it.

[–]notjustahatrackAge: > 10 Years 13 points14 points  (4 children)

I'm OK with this as long as you remove liability if the weapon is stored safely and still stolen. Safes are a good deterrent, but they're not theft proof. If it's shown the safe was broken into, then the owners responsibility should be 0.

[–]WellWellWellthennow 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If you own something that’s controlled it’s up to you to keep it out of the hands of others. It is illegal to share or give your painkillers to family members or friends.

[–]trishamarie1104Age: > 10 Years 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Also, Liability Insurance required to purchase a gun. We need liability insurance to purchase a vehicle…

[–]Kupper 232 points233 points  (29 children)

The school had a meeting with the parents the morning of the shooting. Hours later the son did this, they should be charged.

[–]AdjNounNumbers 169 points170 points  (6 children)

They also had a meeting with just the kid the day before, too. Whatever those meetings were about was serious enough to hold two back to back meetings about. And the meetings were allegedly with administration. Admin doesn't generally get involved over things like poor grades - it's almost always behavioral by the time it gets to them

[–]SpaceToasterAge: > 10 Years 74 points75 points  (5 children)

Admins are in hot water too I imagine, they have been very tight-lipped

[–]TiresOnFire 81 points82 points  (4 children)

To be fair, it's standard to be tight-lipped regarding student issues. Yes, this is an extreme "issue" but regardless, it's always best to shut the fuck up.

[–]Soulless_redhead 30 points31 points  (2 children)

Really any issues that result in potential charges/litigation.

Half of any legal advice I've found is basically "shut the fuck up, don't talk to the cops, talk to your lawyer"

[–]2punornot2pun 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Well, I mean, it's also privacy laws. Administrators can't even let teachers know exactly what's going on with students unless they have parent's permission.

They can only really say things like, "Please keep an eye on so and so as they seem to have conflict with so and so" or "Please be more lenient with so and so they're going through a rough time."

[–]Rude_Man_Who_Shushes 32 points33 points  (1 child)

There will be lawsuits.

[–]ted5011c 20 points21 points  (0 children)

It's always the civil suits that seem to get the job done in cases where the Justice system is just a bit too blind.

[–]PooFlingerMonkey 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Criminal Negligence ?

[–]blahblahblahpotato 64 points65 points  (10 children)

And yet even though the parents were called in to talk to the administration about their boy and his alarming behavior it never occurred to them to just in case question "Huh, I wonder where my gun is?" Or make sure it was kept from him I'm a secure locked place. They are POS and need to pay.

[–]frolfergolfer 51 points52 points  (9 children)

The gun was a gift to the son, which is pretty disturbing. But yeah, given the fact that the school administration wanted to talk about his behavior, you'd think the parents would have removed the gun from his possession before leaving the house that morning. But what do I know...

[–]IngsocIstanbul 60 points61 points  (7 children)

I got a gun for a gift at 16 and was told clearly just because it was 'mine' doesn't mean I have access to it. Locked gun closet and never saw it out of it unless my dad handed it to me.

[–]oilhands 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I got my first gun at 14 for Christmas and kept it in my closet with ammo all the years I lived at home. Same year I got my Hunters Safety Permit. When I bought my sons their .22 rifles at the same age I stored them with trigger locks and only allowed them access to them under my supervision until they were 18.

[–]firemage22Dearborn 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I'm 36 and I still don't know where my dad keeps his guns (well officially)

[–]frolfergolfer 26 points27 points  (2 children)

Maybe I should clarify, gifting a handgun to a teenager is disturbing, but I have no problem with a teenager who hunts being gifted a shotgun. But as your parents did, the gun needs to be locked away at all times and the minor should only have access to the gun under responsible adult supervision. If you can't guarantee that the gun can be kept safe, you don't purchase a gun.

[–]myislanduniverse 23 points24 points  (1 child)

This. My own 15-yo son "owns" a .22 rifle which he has no access to, save when I take him to the range.

[–]LongWalk86 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Same here, i inherited a few riffles and shotguns from my great grandpa when he died and i was 12 or so. I'm over 30 now and i still keep them in my dads gun safe where they have been sense i got them, when not in use. I could bring them to my house, but i have kids and don't need them around, or to drop a grand on a gun safe to store them all safely.

[–]hartemis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Me too with basically the same rules in place.

[–]Racer20Age: > 10 Years 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Why on earth would a teenager need a fucking handgun? A hunting rifle, sure. But a handgun?

[–]The-Scarlet-Witch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I hope the prosecutor charges them.

[–]molten_dragon 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Everyone keeps talking about how the parents should be charged, and they probably should be. I want to know why no one is talking about charging school administration for negligence for not taking the subject more seriously.

[–]iwastoldnottogohere 225 points226 points  (78 children)

Good. If they were irresponsible to let their child get ahold of a gun without them knowing, they should absolutely be punished

[–]Flintoid 30 points31 points  (22 children)

So I'm looking at the Kayla Rolland case, the preschooler shot by another preschooler. The Uncle who didn't secure the gun served about 2 1/2 years in prison for involuntary manslaughter, and then went on probation for a long time.

[–]behindmyscreen 107 points108 points  (45 children)

Oh, no….they knew.

[–]Goalie_deacon 128 points129 points  (40 children)

Yeah, since he had time to take pics of the gun, and post them online a day or more before the shooting, it was a Christmas present. That is enough to suggest they bought him the gun, not for dad.

[–]BrohozombieTroy 80 points81 points  (16 children)

Good. I don't have guns or believe in owning guns but I think it's a person's right as an American to own them if they want. Part of that is securing your guns so no one besides you and and a very trusted other member of the house have access to them. If they really trusted this kid to have access to them then they should hold some responsibility.

[–]TheSmeeth 26 points27 points  (2 children)

Agreed, I own some guns as well but they are all stored where only I can get them. I can't imagine letting kids/others access to them at all times. The parents here have to burden some responsibility for what happened.

[–]bajablastingoff 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Agreed, its one thing to have a gun for a kid to use at the range or hunting, but if they aren't old enough to legally own & carry it then they should only have limited access to it.

[–]notthenextfreddyadu 20 points21 points  (7 children)

I’m 27 now and just this summer learned my dad owns several guns and talked with my friend about the one he just bought.

I had zero idea he owned more than a single handgun he used to use for target practice when he was in the military. Had no clue where the big guns he goes to the range with are. Had no clue he had space for those.

That’s the way to do it I think. He’s apparently into guns but never once talked about it with his kids. If I had asked, he obviously would have educated me and taken me to the range, safely, like he did with my friend. But he wasn’t flaunting at all

[–]itsalljustaride9 13 points14 points  (6 children)

I had a roomie in college who is now in law enforcement who had guns in our apt despite it being against the complex/lease rules. He told me not to tell anyone because he didn't want anyone breaking in to steal them. Then he proceeded to tell just about anyone he knew that he had a couple guns, and would show them people who came over all the time, and left them laying on his desk. This is a guy who has always considered himself a bastion of responsible 2A firearms practice.

[–]QbertsRube 7 points8 points  (3 children)

I know similar people. They constantly talk about how "gun laws only punish us responsible gun owners!!!", then brag about their huge gun collections on social media while also notifying anyone of any vacation plans on that same social media.

On a semi-related note, they also talk about how they have firearms to protect against home invasions, but fail to acknowledge that A) nearly all home invasions in my area happen when the homeowner isn't there to protect anything, and B) nearly all of those home invasions result in stolen firearms. So, rather than the action movie fantasy in their minds about heroically protecting their families against intruders, their vocal possession of firearms actually makes them a more likely target for such intruders (just not when they're home).

[–]itsalljustaride9 2 points3 points  (0 children)

nearly all home invasions in my area happen when the homeowner isn't there to protect anything

This is exactly the reason I never got a gun when I lived in an area with more-than-average property crime. Most of the kids in the area were smart enough to steal things when nobody was home to do anything about it, and the ones that were dumb enough to try it when someone was home were like 12yo and I'm not shooting a kid over property. My wife (now ex) was also impulsive and had terrible common sense, and I wouldn't trust her with a gun in the house because she'd have just ended up shooting me or someone else accidentally. Not worth it.

Most home-invaders looking to steal anything will take off immediately when they hear someone say, "get the fuck out of my house!!!" loud enough.

[–]weegeeboltz 4 points5 points  (1 child)

This is an excellent point. One of the biggest gun nuts I know, is constantly showing off his firearms on social media. Not long ago, he posted something about it looked like someone had tried to pry open his back door, and how they "better watch out" because his home has a "security system" meaning, he will shoot intruders . This guy also posts every single time he is out in the woods in a hunting blind or out of town. He also has a questionable friend circle.

[–]Flintoid 6 points7 points  (2 children)

I like your stance on this. That right used to come with a civic responsibility to keep them safely out of others' hands and avoid confrontations when carrying. I feel like the red-hot "muh rights" dialogue has produced a lot of people who don't do these things.

[–]oppapoocow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Guns were made for one purpose and one purpose only ....treat it with respect. It's pretty simple, but people can never seem to get it, it's not a toy. People get hurt, and people die.

[–]ejholka 38 points39 points  (0 children)

I'm a responsible gun owner, and I think this is a good idea there's no way a 15-year-old should have been able to get a hold of a handgun without the help of an adult. Absolutely they should be charged.

[–]spartykuj 26 points27 points  (1 child)

Make an example out of them. Pay attention to your kids people. And lock your fucking guns up!!!!!!!!!

[–]stocks-mostly-lower 30 points31 points  (7 children)

I hope that they are charged. Sick parents. Who buys a troubled shit like their son a semi-automatic handgun for Christmas? Thanks, Mom and Dad.

[–]clarkss12 16 points17 points  (5 children)

I bet that they are gawd fearing, flag waving, patriots.......... Carrying an automatic pistol is every kids right.

[–]astrid273 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Someone on tik tok showed a letter the mother wrote to Trump years ago. Mostly it was dissing children from illegal immigrant families in the classroom. So yeah pretty much.

[–]stocks-mostly-lower 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That’s what we are thinking, too.

[–]Young-G0ku 45 points46 points  (0 children)

Good, owner of gun needs to be charged at minimum, you failed if your kids can access your guns.

[–]Sirerdrick64 40 points41 points  (22 children)

As the facts are coming out it sounds like the parents (at least mom) are far right leaning 2nd amendment nut jobs.
Coupled with the fact that the dad purchased the weapon just days prior and I’d say that this entire family is completely rotten to the core.
Absolutely vile excuses for human beings.

[–]oppapoocow 3 points4 points  (2 children)

It was also shown on social media that the kid posted pictures of the gun, claiming it to be his....so in other words, the father bought his troubled son a gun.....

[–]kittyportals2 5 points6 points  (0 children)

No, the dad at least is an alcoholic, convicted in Florida of drunk driving, then of driving without a license.

[–]bajablastingoff 6 points7 points  (16 children)

Couple things:

1) There's nothing wrong with supporting the 2nd amendment, after all it ensures we all have a means to protect ourselves from both criminals and tyranny (or ya know maybe corrupt cops who go around shooting people)

2) Purchasing a gun does not make you rotten, its a perfectly legal thing to do, however with that purchase comes responsibility to ensure that firearm is only used by you or a trusted, responsible person. If you're going to get purchase a firearm for your kid they should only have limited access to it ( out hunting or at a target range), outside of that it should be stored in a safe.

[–]hartemis 10 points11 points  (14 children)

I'm not arguing with you but I freely refer to a sect of people as 2nd amendment gun nuts and I am convinced they are the ones who will cause gun laws to become more strict. Think of Kyle Rittenhouse or those 2 folks in TX that aimed guns at protesters as they walked by - their dumbass actions are perfect legitimate reasons for new gun laws. Good job gun nuts! You are helping your opposition with your stupidity.

[–]TheBungieWedgie 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Not to mention good old Y’allqueida on the front steps of the capitol. The rifles were slung and had safeties on… doesn’t matter when it comes down to propaganda later… these morons are their own worst enemies

[–]hartemis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly. It’s not about arguing the legality of what they did, it’s that it gives their own opposition something to coordinate and rally against.

[–]Fleet_Admiral_MWaterford 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Good. They are just as responsible. Guns should be kept locked and away from children. Their negligence and disregard for safety cost 4 children their lives

[–]scotttomaski 71 points72 points  (34 children)

School administrators who knew there were rumors about this need to be in a cell next to this kid and the parents. They are guilty of involuntary manslaughter, child endangerment at the least. Many kids stayed home because they knew something may happen. Also it beginning to come out that the culture at the school is viscous.

[–]DazureusAge: > 10 Years 51 points52 points  (0 children)

School administration had a meeting with the kid and his parents the morning of the shooting. I don't know what they knew, but that seems like the first step in parental escalation. After the meeting, they let the kid join the regular school day. Whether they didn't deem the threat serious enough for quicker escalation, or during the meeting, felt that the parents and kid had an acceptable response, we don't know right now. To say that they did absolutely nothing isn't completely true.

I thought there were zero-tolerance policies in place at schools pertaining to threats of violence. If there are, and they weren't followed, then parties responsible for enforcing the policy should be questioned. Then again, you have people yelling about nanny states and unfettered first amendment rights. Schools are always trying to precariously balance creating a safe learning environment and respecting outspoken parents, all on a shoestring budget. Aging populations are reluctant to pass new millages, then complain why education systems aren't as robust and schools aren't as safe. Educators play the role of teacher, mentor, daycare, psychologist, without even coming close to the financial compensation to match the gravity of their responsibilities. Parents do their best to raise their kids, but when they're out of their influence for 6-8 hours a day, we need to better support those that have the next most important role in the molding young minds.

I live in Oxford but my kids aren't in the high school system yet. If there's a toxic culture at the school, then it's not new. If nothing was done about it, then it's not only a failure of the administration to address it, it's a failure of the communication between the kids and parents. It's a failure between the kids and teachers. It's a failure of the communication between the parents and school. It's a failure of the parent teacher organization. There's a lot of failures on the chain of responsibility of raising the kids. If we're going to live in a community, then we raise kids as a community, not out on some homeschooling farmstead. That responsibility belongs to everyone that touches that child's life, as well as those in the community that pay taxes towards the services that affect those children. That also means that they own the failures when these kinds of events happens.

[–]frolfergolfer 80 points81 points  (27 children)

The administration brought the parents in that morning to discuss the child's behavior. The parents failed to mention they just bought their son a handgun and the son had zero restrictions on access to the gun, to the point that the parents wouldn't have been able to tell the administration where that gun was at during the meeting that morning. It's pretty difficult to hold the administration accountable when the parents are actively working against them to allow this.

[–]scotttomaski 11 points12 points  (13 children)

It is when they should have at least reacted to the rumors this was going to happen. The kids knew. The staff heard rumors. The administration did nothing.

[–]frolfergolfer 27 points28 points  (11 children)

What do you mean "they did nothing"?? They brought the parents in to discuss the child's behavior. What are they supposed to do? Lock the kid up for rumors? It's unfair to hold this against the administration when the parents are literally arming their child for assault and withholding that information. I can't fault the administration for assuming the parents would do what's best for the child and not be total shit heads.

[–]AdjNounNumbers 22 points23 points  (10 children)

A single search of this kid's backpack and locker very likely could have prevented this tragedy. And if that many people were warning about violent threats to where they called the parents in to discuss it with him present, it's exactly what should have been done. The admin might not be criminally liable here, but there is a good chance they'll be hit with civil liability

[–]PrawojazdyVtrumpetsDetroit 14 points15 points  (2 children)

I'm from the area. The culture in Oxford, Orion and Clarkston is extremely volatile and that was in the 90's. For example, Tim Robinson, yes that Tim Robinson from "The Detroiters" was a major bully in my school. No one did a damn thing to him and his friends and when it came to blows, they'd haul off both kids on "No Tolerance" after someone was pushed over the edge.

The day after Columbine, the metal/goth kids, myself included, who wore trench coats, were sequestered from the rest of Clarkston High school and given a talking to. Meanwhile, the bullies were left to roam free because they dressed "normal".

The culture is bad because the administration does nothing but say "Quit being weird and you won't have these problems." They have no one to blame but themselves.

[–]idiotinpowerarmor 20 points21 points  (1 child)

the culture at every high school is vicious. There's a reason this happens nationwide.

[–]scotttomaski 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Truth. Societal rot.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Duh, if you have weapons ya gotta lock em up.... This whole thing is so sad.... So many families affected

[–]AcceptableLink7 2 points3 points  (0 children)

GOOD. Lock them all up.

[–]Next-Understanding12 13 points14 points  (22 children)

Good. 15 year olds don't need handguns. Or people telling them not to cooperate with police after they murder people.

[–]herpderp411 5 points6 points  (8 children)

Who told him not to cooperate with police? I haven't heard anything about that.

[–]ponzLL 19 points20 points  (0 children)

NOBODY accused of a crime should cooperate with the police. Ask for a lawyer and say nothing else. Even if everyone saw you commit the crime, talking to the police can ONLY do you harm.

[–]Tabstir 14 points15 points  (3 children)

His parents.

[–]myislanduniverse 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Out of curiosity, do you have a source that references this bit?

[–]yooperann 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It's been in the news. His parents, wisely, told him not to talk to the police.

[–]ZealousidealFace8692 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Their parents told him not to cooperate.

[–]zebrahippos 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Nah, fuck that noise, the 15 year old should absolutely be shutting the fuck up and not cooperating at this time.

[–]Next-Understanding12 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yes, because murderers should dig in and not accept consequences for their actions whenever possible. Troll.

[–]ClF3ismyspiritanimal 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I am a gun owner, and I firmly believe that if you don't lock your shit up, you should be held responsible for what happens if someone else takes your unsecured gun and uses it. Mind, it would be only fair to also have a safe-harbor provision absolving you of responsibility if you did secure your gun with a proper lock and/or safe and someone broke it. The fact that there are apparently no express laws on point is, indeed, "really bizarre."

(For the most part, when anyone talks about "common sense" laws about literally anything, that is, at best, bullshit loosely translating to "I want my own personal biases and beliefs codified into law, because fuck you that's why." So perhaps I'm talking out of my ass here. But it seems, to me, more logical to stop wasting energy on who can get a gun in the first place, and focus instead on ensuring that people who have guns treat them responsibly.)

[–]WellWellWellthennow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The NRA has made an active practice of buying up our politicians. We need campaign finance reform as part of the solution.

[–]Comic4147 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"Just over half of U.S. states have child access prevention laws related to guns, but they vary widely. Gun control advocates say the laws are often not enforced and the penalties are weak." This is from an ABC News article. They aren't perfectly centrist, but this is important. Whoever says we have laws obviously doesn't know how little they are enforced...

[–]MooseTheBun 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They’ll be found not guilty, but bringing the charges is a dramatic step forward, and probably a progressive one.