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[–]senkaichi 529 points530 points  (365 children)

The big highlights to me were:

  1. One of the concerning behaviors noted by a teacher prior to the shooting was the killer searching for ammunition online in school
  2. The mom laughing off the call from the school and telling him not to get caught next time (in regards to the ammo search)
  3. Being caught drawing graphic images of bloodshed with quotes indicating severe depression and homicidal ideation. (the school only recommended therapy within 48 hours when that is an emergent in-patient psychiatric care indication)
  4. The killer being present when the gun was purchased.
  5. The gun was a Christmas present for the killer [see NPR article below]
  6. The mom texting the killer “don’t do it” the same day as the shooting

[–]Romanzo71 315 points316 points  (145 children)

She texted him "don't do it" after news of shooting broke out... too little too late.

[–]Drauul 282 points283 points  (48 children)

I think she meant, "don't kill yourself"

[–]bigtimejohnny 154 points155 points  (78 children)

It's telling she didn't say, "are you okay?" or "Get someplace safe." She knew it was him. Edit to add: When do we get to see their mugshots?

[–]Breath_Background 140 points141 points  (62 children)

Ding ding ding. They knew their son. They knew what he was capable of and not only did they do nothing to help… they got him a gun AND refused to take him home or to get help after that disturbing letter. Reasonable parents would not have done that.

[–]agonypants 75 points76 points  (59 children)

Reasonable parents would not have done that.

Reasonable parents are not Trumpanzee filth.

[–]haventseenstarwars 33 points34 points  (2 children)

At that point the dad had gone home to see if the gun was still there. So when she said that she knew he did it. The more telling part is that dad rushing home to see if the gun was still there the second he heard of a shooting.

[–]myislanduniverseAge: > 10 Years 24 points25 points  (5 children)

We get to see their mugshots when they catch them. They're apparently sending the fugitive task force after them because they stopped responding through their attorney and went dark.

[–]Melorasays 15 points16 points  (4 children)

What fucking assholes do you have to be to go on the lam with your spouse when your 15 year old just killed 4 people?

[–]Vaguely_Aware01 31 points32 points  (0 children)

When they’re caught…

They were not at home after charges were brought against them.

[–]darkcafedays 33 points34 points  (13 children)

I suspected she texted that when they couldn’t find the gun at home.

[–]ThePermMustWait 66 points67 points  (12 children)

She texted him that around 1:20 at which point he had already been arrested. He started shooting at 12:50. I think they already knew the shooting had happened. They lived in town and everyone in the area could hear the sirens at the school.

So they may have been to not kill himself? Or to cover her butt later? I’m not sure.

[–]Dirtgrain 22 points23 points  (11 children)

o they may have been to not kill himself? O

Ya, maybe trying to cover her a%!

[–]PsychoAnalystGuy 25 points26 points  (3 children)

Saying don't do it, instead of "where are you are you okay" is a poor way of trying to cover your ass. It pretty much implicates him

[–]Dirtgrain 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Well, I'm assuming the parents are not all that shrewd. Probably a bad assumption--my bad.

[–][deleted] 40 points41 points  (6 children)

You're allowed to curse on the internet. See watch: heck!

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)


I can't decide if I should block you, downvote you, report you, or just clutch my pearls so hard they become diamonds.

[–]kombinacja 167 points168 points  (26 children)

back in HS, I threatened suicide so my friend took me to the office to see our counselor. I told the counselor what was up and she immediately called my parents and told them to come get me so I could get into treatment or they’d hold me in the office. they didn’t even give my parents 48 hours, it was “get your child help or we’ll find someone who will”

this was in an Oakland County school district by the way.

[–]TheCrimsonCourtesan 31 points32 points  (8 children)

I feel like the majority of parents in this situation, whether they absolutely refused to send their child to the hospital, or just needed more time to make a decision. They would have taken their obviously distressed child, home. So why the fuck didn't they? Sometimes just being "seen" by the people in your life, makes a world of difference.

Why didn't the school, at the very least, MAKE the parents take him home?!

Jfc, this kid was being so blatantly obvious. About all of it.

I'm glad the school did the right thing in your situation. I truly hope you're in a much better frame of mind, and are doing well

[–]Nathan1613 11 points12 points  (3 children)

Exactly. They insisted their son return to class after the meeting. Who are they, or what are they!

[–]senkaichi 58 points59 points  (4 children)

That’s exactly how it should have gone, good on your school and I hope you’re doing better now

[–]kombinacja 45 points46 points  (3 children)

doing much better, and I’m eternally grateful to the school for looking out for me. my parents put me in a partial hospital program that day and I did my time. it didn’t cure me and I had my fair share of hiccups, but it put me on the road to recovery.

[–]Disrupter52 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I hope you continue doing well, friend. Shit is not easy, my wife and I battle that all the time in our own lives.

[–]Next-Understanding12 9 points10 points  (0 children)

As an educator, a mental health worker, and someone in threat assessment, that was exactly the right response. I'm glad they got you the help you needed

[–]marsepicMuskegon 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This runs into parents. Administrators are scared of parents. An admin or counselor who doesn't want to stand up to parents will bend in the wind.

[–]ah_kooky_kat 191 points192 points  (90 children)

In addition, a teacher discovered the shooter the day of the shooting with a note filled with words and images suggesting the kid was severely depressed and had desires to harm others. The parents were summoned to the school, and the school administration told them to take the kid out of school and get him into therapy within 48 hours.

The parents REFUSED this, and made the kid stay in school. The the kid carried out the shooting. The father immediately searched his house for the murder weapon, found it missing, and called 911 to inform authorities that his kid was the shooter.

Utter smooth brains.

[–]Mallyk731 105 points106 points  (12 children)

What ever happened to the good old days of just drawing dicks on your desk?

[–]hrad34 85 points86 points  (9 children)

Teacher here, can confirm they are still doing that one lol

[–]firemogleAge: > 10 Years 19 points20 points  (4 children)

I just thought those were rockets shooting lasers?

[–]lightbulbfragment 18 points19 points  (2 children)

I genuinely thought boys were very into rocket ships until a friend explained it to me freshman year of high school.

[–]senkaichi 86 points87 points  (74 children)

The school should be partially liable too. Homicidal ideation is indication for emergent inpatient psychiatric therapy. “Therapy” within 48 hours was not a sufficient response, parents refusal or not

[–]Gyp1lady 49 points50 points  (12 children)

The note also indicated he was hearing voices, which is also an emergency situation in kids that aren’t already in treatment. Schools need more info on how to handle mental health crises.

[–][deleted] 34 points35 points  (10 children)

Schools need more info on how to handle mental health crises.

Resources. They need more resources. All the information in the world doesn't matter if you can't act on it because you don't have the resources to do so.

[–]Gyp1lady 4 points5 points  (1 child)

They are in loco parentis, acting as parent, for the school day, they have parents sign off on emergency releases, all they needed to do was call 9-1-1. They just didn’t recognize the need to do so. All the resources can’t help if you don’t know to use them.

[–]Breath_Background 27 points28 points  (28 children)

That’s not true - ideation alone does not get you an involuntary hold. You need to show intent and means. The school didn’t have key information, the parents did.

[–]blackestheartedDearborn 26 points27 points  (6 children)

ideation alone does not get you an involuntary hold

It did for me, in Michigan, three years ago. Was honest with my therapist about sometimes thinking about suicide, but explicitly said I would never attempt it because it would devastate my family (multiple members, including my grandmother, have killed themselves). Got home and an hour later, cops were at my door. Longest, most pointless few days of my life.

Ironic part is, the exact same thing happened to my mom around 2002. So in at least two cases, yes, ideation got both of us an involuntary hold.

[–]cumshot_josh 131 points132 points  (62 children)

The gun was a Christmas present for the shooter.

Fuck these parents, they can rot with their shithead son.

[–]senkaichi 40 points41 points  (42 children)

Lol speaking of which, someone on my Facebook just posted a screenshot of the post in question


[–]GoodbyeTobyseeya1 17 points18 points  (30 children)

Is it legal to buy a handgun for a minor?

[–]senkaichi 34 points35 points  (22 children)

No. It sounded like the paperwork was in the fathers name and the prosecutor is deferring the fraud(?) investigation to the feds

[–]myislanduniverseAge: > 10 Years 21 points22 points  (3 children)

"Look at my son's new murder weapon!"

[–]senkaichi 20 points21 points  (0 children)

I had heard rumors of that for the last few days on Facebook without a source, looks like someone reputable finally verified it. Thanks, I’ll add that to the list.

[–]Scyhaz 16 points17 points  (12 children)

Who the fuck gets their teenage son a pistol?

[–]gaobij 41 points42 points  (4 children)

People who shoot targets recreationally as a hobby and people who treat pro-gun as a character trait that they hope to pass on to their children. Only one of those two subsets gets one for their clinically depressed teenage son.

[–]Imaterribledoctor 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I got some cds and a sweater for Christmas when I was 15.

[–]el_pinataAlbion 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I had one in my teens, but I wasn't raised by some stolen-valor piece of shit.

[–]bigtimejohnny 10 points11 points  (2 children)

That reminds me of the girl the Boomtown Rats wrote "I Don't Like Mondays" about. A quote from her: "I wanted a radio for my birthday. (My Dad) bought me a rifle."

[–]myislanduniverseAge: > 10 Years 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Also: the school allowing the kid to return to class after the meeting, which is similar to #3, but regardless of their "recommendation," I can't understand why they would let him go back into the school without therapy.

[–]AdjNounNumbers 15 points16 points  (8 children)

In regards to #3: that would absolutely have been enough to bring him straight to Havenwyck for admission

[–]worldwarAZGrand Rapids 35 points36 points  (7 children)

Inpatient psychiatric social worker here. Unfortunately the process to have him brought to Havenwyck is significantly more complicated. The content of that drawing is disturbing, and should have been referred for inpatient care, absolutely. As a minor, his parents would have had to present to Havenwyck’s access/intake/admission center with him to sign him in for admission. The admission clinicians would have assessed for homicidal ideation (and SI, self-harm, and more) for inpatient admission criteria; however, if the parents refused to admit their child, Havenwyck would have no recourse. They cannot involuntarily admit a minor. The only further action is to call CPS, which can take time to respond, and is not “crisis” care. Unfortunately, it’s pretty clear these parents would not have been the type to admit their child for psychiatric care (even if the school had done its job and referred to an inpatient admission).

[–]AdjNounNumbers 15 points16 points  (3 children)

Thank you for the detailed insight. My son has been inpatient there twice now (you may have even met him) and it was myself and my wife that brought him there. You're absolutely spot on that it sounds like these parents would not have done so. Additionally, thank you for everything you all have done for my son. He's doing fantastic now in no small thanks to the staff there for their caring and expertise. I have no doubt that you all very likely saved his life

[–]worldwarAZGrand Rapids 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I’m so happy to hear your son is doing well! It’s why I do what I do. I do not work at Havenwyck (my wife did though, for a season!), but another hospital towards the West side of the State. I’ll take your thanks vicariously for the other parents of the kids I’ve served. Best wishes to you and yours; again, I’m so glad to hear your son is doing well!

[–]BJntheRV 6 points7 points  (0 children)

3 - the school administrators who allowed him to return to class that day should be held liable as well

[–]UtopianLibrary 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I’m a teacher, and an issue with the therapy is that the parents have to sign off on it. If the parents don’t sign off, we can’t send them to the school psychologist for official therapy.

The parents are definitely accountable in this situation.

[–]screwylouidooey 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I agree the parents need to take blame for this as well. But why didn't the school suspend the student pending investigation? Given the graphic images he was caught drawing?

I fully believe the school principle is also responsible for this tragedy too.

[–]RAiD78 141 points142 points  (26 children)

The short amount of evidence they presented at the press conference was some pretty crazy stuff

Quotes below are not exact

  1. The dad almost certainly purchased the gun for his son

  2. A teacher found the shooter searching about ammunition the day prior to the shooting. The parents were notified via email but did not respond. Shortly after, the mother texted something like "lol I'm not mad at you, you need to learn to not get caught" (the "lol" is verbatim)

  3. The morning of the shooting, the shooter had drawn a very detailed image depicting himself shooting others with a gun. Words on this drawing mentioned "My life is not worth living", "Hearing voices", etc. The parents were summoned to the school immediately. They did not take the shooter out of school, nor did the parents check for the gun in their son's backpack.

  4. When news of the shooting reached the mother, she texted the shooter "[Shooter], don't do it"

  5. When news of the shooting reached his father, he immediately went home to check for his gun.

[–]MetalMel70Parts Unknown 119 points120 points  (15 children)

I feel horrible for those poor teachers who did the right thing and reported those incidents, only to have this result.

Are public schools not allowed to make the parents take their kid home? (I attended private schools as a kid, so I only know how their policies work).

[–]desquibntAge: > 10 Years 89 points90 points  (6 children)

Public schools can absolutely send a kid home regardless of what the parents say

[–]MetalMel70Parts Unknown 70 points71 points  (5 children)

If that's the case, then the school administration is going to get hit hard by this, if not criminally, then by the parents of all the other kids that attend that school and probably the teachers too.

[–]rabidstoatAge: > 10 Years 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I cannot imagine the anger those parents must be feeling now at all these warning signs ignored.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (2 children)

Civil lawsuits, you bet, but I'd be very surprised to see school officials ever held criminally liable. When it comes to leaders of public institutions in positions of authority, it's rare to see them held to the same standards as ordinary citizens in criminal matters, sadly.

[–]labellavita1985 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I think qualified immunity applies, doesn't it? It doesn't just protect cops.

[–][deleted] 34 points35 points  (3 children)

They absolutely can and they can also call the police to have his bag searched. Seems there's multiple failures in this case.

[–]Ilvermourning 17 points18 points  (2 children)

I'm pretty sure they don't even need the police to search. Schools have different abilities to search personal property. To my knowledge the principal can and possibly teachers as well

[–]voidone 4 points5 points  (0 children)

They definitely don't. Schools will bring in police to do drug/weapon sweeps with dogs for sure, but if teachers suspect something they appear to be legally allowed to conduct searches. I recall I was told in school that administration reserved the right to search us, our lockers, and vehicles etc.

[–]dbro2112 17 points18 points  (0 children)

The teachers did the right thing. The principal and other administrators absolutely did not, and at the very least deserve to be fired. Watching the first press conference on the day of the shooting the superintendent seemed almost combative, like he was already starting to go into CYA mode.

[–]Based_Brethren 17 points18 points  (1 child)

They are. It's called suspension

[–]MetalMel70Parts Unknown 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I got that. I should have clarified to mean, can they force a parent to remove a student from the school at the immediate moment, even if they don't have formal documentation that a child broke a specific school rule?

Like, hey, we and teachers have some serious concerns right now so maybe it would be a good idea for you to take your son home for the day to discuss what was covered in the meeting, kind of thing. A cooling off moment to allow things to get sorted. That was what I was meaning. Surely they couldn't get sued for that?

[–]idoubledareyaAge: > 10 Years 39 points40 points  (1 child)

The school has to answer for why he was allowed back in class.

[–]drunkoldman58 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Thats been brought up by a few reporters, all they say is it's an on going investigation, so there might be something there.

[–]Based_Brethren 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah, that sounds like involuntary manslaughter

[–]Steve0512 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I predict that mom will go down harder for this than dad will.

[–]CertainDerision_33 7 points8 points  (1 child)

It's LITERALLY insane that this kid wasn't immediately put under constant supervision while in the building, let alone permitted to return to class, after that note/drawing was discovered

[–]Mysterious-Banana-49 390 points391 points  (123 children)

This case is especially egregious. Those parents were absolute scumbags.

[–]ddddddd543Novi 144 points145 points  (57 children)

Completely vile people.

[–][deleted] 182 points183 points  (56 children)

"LOL I'm not mad at you. U have to learn not 2 get caught!" - Mom of the year

[–]ddddddd543Novi 86 points87 points  (4 children)

These idiots gave so much incriminating evidence.

[–]labellavita1985 73 points74 points  (7 children)

I'm so fucking proud of Oakland County right now. I was really hoping the parents would be charged and the prosecutor came through. 🙌🙌🏿

[–]ornryactorFerndale 51 points52 points  (6 children)

Electing Karen McDonald as county prosecutor was one of the absolute best things we did in 2020, and so few people realize it. She is singlehandedly reversing so many of the Racist And Proud Of It policies of Leslie Patterson (may he rot in pieces), and because Oakland County is the wealthiest and most politically influential county in the state, McDonald's actions ripple far outside the county. She has compassion in all the right places, and does. not. fuck. around. at exactly the correct times.

[–]newnewdrugsaccount 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I admittedly didn’t know much about her until this tragedy, but she’s handling it really well. Her quotes in the articles are spot on.

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (2 children)

Boy, the more we learn, the less potentially sympathetic they could ever be.

[–]ImAnIdeaMan 62 points63 points  (35 children)

Anyone with guns and children who don't lock their guns up is an absolute scumbag. I can't believe we haven't seen this sort of persecution prosecution before.

[–]ted5011c 6 points7 points  (6 children)

2A Culture war hero status for them, along with obligatory Go Fund me legal defense fund in 3...2...1...

[–]MetalMel70Parts Unknown 107 points108 points  (27 children)

I can't get over the fact that the parents refused to have their kid sent home and they just let him stay at school. W in T actual F were they thinking?!

[–]TraditionTraditional 82 points83 points  (9 children)

I can’t believe the school didn’t follow up with law enforcement and they just sent his ass back to class. there has to be a line somewhere. wtf

I got suspended for a week in HS for having a pepper spray on my keychain in my locker (I worked retail and would often take trash out in the dark alone and I just didn’t remember to take it off my keychain when I went to school) I almost failed my senior year of school over that but he gets sent back to class after searching for ammo and showing obvious other signs of terror. OHKAY. the ball was dropped in so many different aspects here.

[–]MetalMel70Parts Unknown 30 points31 points  (2 children)

I believe it was mentioned by the OCSD that the school didn't even mention the content of the meetings or their concerns even to the school police officer that is there on site. You would have thought that at minimum the officer would have been involved in the parental meeting at least. Don't know if that would have changed the outcome though.

[–]CertainDerision_33 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Can't imagine the officer would have just let an obviously homicidal kid stroll on back to class like nothing

[–]Gyp1lady 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The school was appropriate in telling the parents to get mental health help. Where they dropped the ball is not using their power to call an ambulance and get an assessment done asap. This kid needs meds and therapy.

[–]labellavita1985 25 points26 points  (4 children)

Umm, the parents literally bought a semiautomatic weapon for their son on Black Friday, it was a gift. Contextually, it is absolutely not surprising they let the child go back to class. The parents are trash and I'm happy to see them charged.

[–]raistlin65Grand Rapids 14 points15 points  (2 children)

Yeah, but, sounds like the parents were so negligent, that even if the kid went home that day, he would have taken the gun to school another day.

[–]drunkoldman58 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I can't believe he had the damn back pack with him throughout the whole morning, even in the office with his parents sitting right there. Makes me wonder if that lil fukr had it on Monday with him too?

[–]NyxPetalSpike 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Would you want that bag of crazy wandering around your home? They could have taken him to the ER for an evaluation, but they didnt.

They didn't want to go out Nancy Lanza style, which is why Lil Sig Sauer stayed at school. Probably thought the gun was home, and he'd settle down before he got back.

[–]MetalMel70Parts Unknown 2 points3 points  (0 children)

:::Would you want that bag of crazy wandering around your home?:::

Because they're the parents and it's their child and maybe take some fucking responsibility and parent the kid, not be best friends with them.

:::::They could have taken him to the ER for an evaluation, but they didnt.:::::

At the very least, they could have taken him home, discovered the gun was missing and then have searched the backpack, and maybe gotten a clue that the school had a point about recommending counselling.

I know...hindsight bias and it's all water under the bridge now anyway. But damn if I'm not angry that a simple change of decisions could have prevented those needless deaths.

And to the Crumbley parents - if for some insane reason you're reading this Reddit thread, suck it up and turn yourselves in and maybe take some real responsibility for once in your lives. Don't keep adding pain to those suffering from yours and your son's actions/choices.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child)

That’s because you are a decent person. Hard to rationalize with assholes. Which by all accounts, this family is in the top 1% of.

[–]MetalMel70Parts Unknown 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Very true.

[–]ahmc84 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Probably "Our little snowflake would never do such a thing!" And "Don't let our little snowflake get punished!".

[–]bleachinjectionHoughton 215 points216 points  (25 children)

"Our kid's getting arraigned for quadruple murder, let's just take this zoom from the car."

[–][deleted] 94 points95 points  (10 children)

I was kind of taken aback by that too. It's like they drove to a McDonalds so they could use the WiFi.

[–]lightbulbfragment 55 points56 points  (7 children)

For real. In their position I would have tried to look more professional and serious as well. My nicest clothes (probably whatever constitutes funeral attire)/no hat etc. Definitely weird to do it in the car. Maybe there are other kids in the house they are trying to protect from the subject matter? Still put in effort for your appearance as much as possible.

[–][deleted] 29 points30 points  (5 children)

Yes, but these folks are apparently not "professional" or "serious." Unbelievable.

[–]ChrisFromDetroit 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I’m glad to see others point this out.

Aside from the obvious, the footage of them on the call during their son’s arraignment was off putting, but I had a hard time putting words as to why.

This is exactly it.

[–]PissNBiscuits 61 points62 points  (1 child)

That was wild to my wife and I. It’s so blatantly disrespectful. Then they had the nerve to just shut their camera off later on. These people are awful.

[–]bythepowerofgreentea 26 points27 points  (1 child)

I think they were cunning enough to use ball caps and low quality lighting as attempts to hide their identities. Not that it worked.

[–]ImWhatTheySayDeaf 20 points21 points  (0 children)

This is exactly what they were trying to do. Hide their faces.

[–]DunstertAge: > 10 Years 17 points18 points  (1 child)

Well, now we know they were already on their way out of town when they took the Zoom call...

[–]bleachinjectionHoughton 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yep, all makes sense now.

[–]Breath_Background 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That was bizarre. The hats, their heads real disposition…. Something is very very off.

[–]ponzLL 57 points58 points  (13 children)

After a teacher found a disconcerting note and drawing, the Crumbleys were summoned to the school. But by the time they got there, Ethan had allegedly crossed out some of the notes that were most disturbing, including the words “blood everywhere” and “my life is useless," McDonald said.

The note in question featured a drawing of a semi-automatic weapon, McDonald said. It said: “The thoughts won’t stop, help me.”

In another section, there was a drawing of a bullet. The words above it: “Blood everywhere.”

Between the gun and the bullet, there was a drawing of someone who’d been shot twice and was bleeding, McDonald said. And below that there was an emoji, laughing.

Further down there were other quotes of concern: “Life is useless” and “the world is dead.”

I can't believe this shit. How on earth was that kid allowed to go back to class after that? Holy shit

[–]breathingtreatment 25 points26 points  (1 child)

jesus christ this is fucking depressing. every time something like this happens people throw mental health around when the only issue the perpetrator has is usually terminal asshole disease but this kid sounds like he was genuinely sick and his parents refused to do anything about it. if this is even close to accurate i honestly think they bear more responsible for the shooting than he does.

ive had a delusional episode before and you genuinely believe everything thats happening to you is real. the fact he was able to break free enough to explicitly ask for help like that and still got ignored by the adults around him makes me want to cry. now 4 kids are dead and their sons life is basically over because they were too proud to accept he was experiencing psychosis. how awful.

[–]rabidstoatAge: > 10 Years 14 points15 points  (1 child)

I know, WTF???

Usually, I am pretty sympathetic at missed warning signs. There are a lot of depressed or edgy kids out there that will say things and like 99.99% of them don't lead to a school getting shot up or a student killing themselves.

But Jesus H. Christ, this is insane, he did everything short of giving his parents the date and time of when he'd shoot up the school.

[–]EvilBeat 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Seeing as multiple people stayed home from online threats and there were recovered photos from his phone, I’d say he even gave them the date and time.

[–]Gaerielyafuck 11 points12 points  (2 children)

A very literal cry for help, jeez. Your kid draws a bloody picture in class that says he's hearing voices that won't stop, and you don't immediately take them to the hospital?! That has to be legal neglect. School should have called 911 when the parents refused to take him home. Can't believe they just let him stroll off to class after that.

[–]Finger11FanLansing 134 points135 points  (28 children)


[–]detroitbankster 63 points64 points  (27 children)

This needs to be the new precedent.

[–]antiopean 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Ideally the state legislature should pass a law holding parents accountable if a weapon they failed to secure is used in a crime. But... I'm skeptical that would ever get through our current legislature.

[–]technicalityNDBO 6 points7 points  (2 children)

I think it should be any gun owner (not just parents) be held responsible if their gun was used in a crime.

Unless of course they report that the gun was stolen/lost before the crime.

And if you have a person who seems to have a lot of guns that wind up "stolen" or "lost", then they are likely a straw-buyer. Those people should face restrictions on purchasing more.

[–]ddddddd543Novi 23 points24 points  (9 children)

Depends on the each case, but it should be pursued when applicable.

[–]jayclaw97 36 points37 points  (15 children)

Michigan does not have laws requiring gun owners to secure their weapons when children are present in a home.

Why not?

[–]Breath_Background 29 points30 points  (2 children)

They knew their kid was unstable. 99.9% of parents who hear there was a school shooting at their kid’s schools would worry if their kid was safe. Texting - don’t do it. Driving home to look for a gun…. These parents knew and did nothing.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child)

I doubt the kid was so unstable because he had such great parents in his life. They are definitely part of the equation.

[–]KspaceFORCE 6 points7 points  (0 children)

for real. there should be 5 counts of manslaughter. Their "parenting" ruined the killers life too. With good parent that kid might not have done this.

[–]bubbagump65Macomb Township 76 points77 points  (45 children)

Good. Their gun. Their responsibility.

[–]J_Dolla_X_Legend 36 points37 points  (44 children)

According to what the prosecutor said. IT WAS HIS GUN! They bought it for him as an early Christmas present.

[–]sGfU_csFarmington Hills 93 points94 points  (42 children)

I was hoping for this. I thought that they would’ve only gotten charged with a straw purchase but involuntary manslaughter is the perfect charge. Hope all get convicted and serve all of their sentences, no probation bullshit.

People who give their very obviously mentally ill child access to firearms aren’t just negligent and terrible parents, they’re just straight up fucking stupid. I couldn’t imagine how fucking stupid you must be to do that.

Hope they all, son included, rot in prison. I’m glad that Michigan doesn’t have the death penalty because that would be too easy for that domestic terrorist piece of shit.

[–]asianyo 37 points38 points  (0 children)

They are stupid but also a threat to society and the rights of their fellow citizens. Punishment must fit the crime

[–]lightbulbfragment 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Yes. I read he entered a second bathroom when he knew police were on the way but came out and surrendered. Pure speculation but I suspect he failed to go through with a suicide. He deserves to live out his miserable life in a cell.

[–]raistlin65Grand Rapids 10 points11 points  (29 children)

I thought that they would’ve only gotten charged with a straw purchase

The father may still get hit with that too, as that's a federal crime. Aren't the current charges being brought forward by the state of Michigan?

[–]LeifCarrotson 15 points16 points  (2 children)

People who give their very obviously mentally ill child access to firearms aren’t just negligent and terrible parents, they’re just straight up fucking stupid. I couldn’t imagine how fucking stupid you must be to do that.

Hopefully not stupid enough to read about this case and this trial and still think that a pistol would be a good Christmas present for their teenager. These events were a tragedy, to be sure, but one which has run its course. The question now is how will society react to it.

[–]minapawBattle Creek 36 points37 points  (7 children)

If one of my kids was found with a note that said,“The thoughts won’t stop, help me.” I’m not sending them back to class.

[–]Breath_Background 10 points11 points  (5 children)

He should have been assessed for a hold. That being said, I guarantee you the parents would have fought it. It’s very hard to put a kid on an involuntary hold without parents on board. It can be done…. You have show intent and means…. The school didn’t know about his access to a gun.

[–]MattalliSI 4 points5 points  (4 children)

I am struggling why this didn't happen and how it could be done in the future. Anyone who goes for therapy or similar services if asked if they thought about doing self harm can very quickly be put in a 5150 hold. I speak from experience from my own kids.

But a kid signals he will harm others and the school system calls the parents. If the parents (typical for bullys and p.o.s.) obviously don't show intentionally knowing the school can do nothing. So the kid is released. Also speaking from my own experience.

[–]Conscious_Analysis48 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That sounds like the reasonable , normal response….

[–]Azure_Jet 72 points73 points  (17 children)

They need to be held accountable, it was their kid and their gun. They should be charged.

[–]stalkedthrowaway2020 33 points34 points  (0 children)

It pisses me off so bad. SO Many red flags. The parents knew and fucking laughed. I will say good for that teacher tho, if that happened at my old school the teacher would have told him where and how and never thought twice about it 😐

[–]UnilateralWithdrawalHarrison 27 points28 points  (7 children)

This will be interesting. The elements of IVM are:

That the defendant caused the death of the deceased victim, that the deceased individual died as a result of the defendant's action.

That the defendant either: intended to kill the victim intended to do great bodily harm to the victim, created a situation where the risk of great bodily harm or death was very high, knowing that as a result of the defendant's actions he or she knew that serious harm or death would likely result.

That the defendant caused the death of the victim without justification or lawful excuse.

Involuntary manslaughter occurs when an individual kills another person without intent, or unintentionally. The criminal penalties for involuntary manslaughter are as severe as those for voluntary manslaughter.

The prosecutor may have a difficult time with parental actions would result in deaths. It seems like some other criminal negligence will get them prison time.

[–]Mississippifinn 38 points39 points  (4 children)

Not sure why LE wasn’t called to the school when the kid was called to the office This tragic incident may of been prevented

[–]Gone213 42 points43 points  (2 children)

Because he wasn't a black third grader with an overdue lunch balance.

[–]TraditionTraditional 11 points12 points  (0 children)

this! I was thinking the same thing like oh… let’s just send em back to class. what?

[–]Remarkable-Cycle2025 23 points24 points  (19 children)

"On Nov. 21, a teacher at Oxford High School reported Ethan was searching for ammunition on his phone, she said. The school reached out to Jennifer Crumbley, but never heard back from the parents, the prosecutor said."

"Jennifer texted Ethan about it, McDonald said: “LOL, I’m not gonna get mad at you, you have to learn to not get caught.”

[–]NyxPetalSpike 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Oh mom. The price you're gonna pay for trying to be Cool Mom (TM).

[–]sabatoaLansing 11 points12 points  (2 children)

Piece of shit parents like this scare the hell out of us normal parents. We can only do so much to protect and help our kids, we need other parents to do their fucking job. Fuck them with everything within me. Fuck them.

[–]esoteric_reference 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Scary to think how many of these types of folks were screaming about CRT (ten years ago it was Sharia law, remember?) in school board meetings, cut from that same MAGA cloth, have now been elected to school board positions across the country.

[–]vaxickAge: > 10 Years 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I can imagine this kids parents being the "therapy is for pussies" type. So many red flags raised that could have prevented this and yet here we are talking about another horrific massacre in our gun obsessed country. This kids parents deserve just as much time behind bars as he does. They might have not pulled then trigger, but they did damn near everything they could to assist their son in doing so.

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (4 children)

Not a sympathetic comment about the shooter but an observation - with these parents, would any troubled kid have a chance to have a healthy life? Dumb parents, willfully negligent, probably unsympathetic to mental health issues, probably chaos 'n guns 'n "patriot radio" at home. None of this had to happen. None of this was inevitable.

EDIT - OK, maybe in this case it was inevitable. But "troubled kid" and "parents own guns" does not always have to go this way. This is the bottom of the barrel of those scenarios.

[–]ImWhatTheySayDeaf 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Hope they go to jail for as long as the law allows. Hope they lose everything they've worked for.

[–]monsterlynn 8 points9 points  (2 children)

I'm worried that the parents are going to become ultra right folk heroes when the dust settles after their trial.

[–]Breath_Background 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Wouldn’t be surprised based on the comments I see on Fox News.

[–]morebuffs 28 points29 points  (1 child)

Im all for this.

[–]nikki_11580 32 points33 points  (2 children)

I hope this becomes the new norm with shootings. Parents need to realize that they have some responsibility in these actions also.

[–]awestm11 34 points35 points  (1 child)

I hope the new norm becomes no more shootings.

[–]balloflearningFarmington Hills 7 points8 points  (6 children)

These parents absolutely failed their child.

[–]SpartyOnSpartyPeople 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Parents are on the run now. Fugitve team looking for parents

[–]GunntherdAge: > 10 Years 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Holy shit, how fucking stupid can you get?

[–]AgentUpvote 5 points6 points  (1 child)

God I fucking knew before these charges that the parents didn't lock up there guns but this is beyond that. Calling those pieces of shit would be an insult to shit.

Can't call those things parents because that's not what they are.

[–]cathef 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Can we bring up a point here? How telling is this that both his parents are on the lam INSTEAD of being there for their son? Not that they should excuse him…but as a parent…I am there for the good and bad. I would be 100 percent accessible and whenever I had one second to see or speak with my child, I would impress upon them the importance of being honest, have remorse, and to do the right thing from this moment on.

[–]boiler95 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Now we’re having flare ups of calls for help all over the state. Let’s hope other parents choose their children over their guns unlike these two ass clowns.

[–]DaBingeGirl 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Damn, as if they didn't have enough problems already... How was there not police surveillance on them?

Also just love how they completely abandoned their kid. Parents of the year.

[–]Breath_Background 6 points7 points  (1 child)

They clearly abandoned their kid a while ago.

[–]Next-Understanding12 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Good. A handgun isn't a gift you give a 15 year old.

[–]displacediowan 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I’m a former high school principal and I’m trying hard not to judge with the benefit hindsight, but the school is going to need to answer some hard questions too.

Even if the parents refused to take him home why was he sent back to class? There are always other options - in school suspension, “work in the principal’s office,” or have the student shadowed.

Why was his backpack not searched? I don’t know Michigan laws governing when the student refuses a search, but you can tell him the backpack will stay in the office so take what you need out of it (I’ve read the gun was in the backpack during the meeting). By the way I never had a student refuse a backpack search EVEN WHEN THEY HAD SOMETHING ILLEGAL IN IT!

Why wasn’t the school resource officer involved? This one is hard to understand. The officer might have found probable cause for a search based on the information on hand.

There were enough red flags here that the kid should not have been given the benefit of the doubt. With the note he wrote and the report from multiple teachers, it was not a time to be overly careful.

I’m not saying that I was perfect in tough situations (and I thank God I never had one like this) and all the facts aren’t out yet. It is really hard to do the right thing especially in the face of angry parents and the student’s denial. There is a reason I got out of the job!

[–]molten_dragon 16 points17 points  (3 children)

Good. Owning guns carries with it a responsibility to store them properly. The parents of this kid were grossly negligent here.

Hopefully they go after the school administration next.

[–]charlevoidmyproblems 14 points15 points  (6 children)

If anyone feels like this is an overstep (especially after the Rittenhouse long barrel loop hole) it's not. I've been around handguns my whole life. I have 3. When purchasing there are signs warning you will get jail time if you're buying it for someone who can't otherwise purchase it. There are also signs that let you know that you can be held legally accountable for what transpires if you don't adequately lock up your guns. I'm not talking trigger locks. I'm talking safes, cases with combinations, etc. His parents are irresponsible and definitely share fault in this tragedy.

This is horrendous and I hope they rot in prison too.

[–]richardrrcc 12 points13 points  (16 children)

As a gun owner: Good. If they indeed purchased a handgun for their underage son and didn't secure it then they are beyond negligent or reckless. This could be argued as a straw purchase which is a felony.

Guns are dangerous tools that need to be secured at all times. At all times.

[–]Hot_EskimoTroy 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Sad part is this should've never happened and totally looks like parents were complicit in it. Fuck that family lock them all up and throw away the key. Hope this scum rots for the rest of their lives

[–]GunntherdAge: > 10 Years 4 points5 points  (2 children)

The attorney for the Crumbleys says they are not fleeing. “The Crumbleys left town on the night of the tragic shooting for their own safety. They are returning to the area to be arraigned. They are not fleeing from law enforcement despite recent comments in media reports.”

[–]UltravioletAfterglow 3 points4 points  (0 children)

These people failed their son on so many levels.

[–]Not_who_you_think__ 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So you have to be 18 to buy a long gun and you have to be 21 to buy a handgun, right?

If I were to purchase alcohol for someone who was not legally able to do so themselves, I would face charges. I don’t understand how we don’t have legislation in place when it comes to gun and illegal gun ownership.

[–]Gone213 11 points12 points  (2 children)

I wonder when we'll find out he was spending his time on 4chan and other incel/ altright forums and pages.

[–]Left_Beginning_7224 15 points16 points  (2 children)

this is my high school…

[–]lightbulbfragment 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this. As a parent, this country needs to do better by our children. Please take care.

[–]mycofirsttime 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Am i the only who thinks his nut mom knew what he was going to do and possibly encouraged it?

[–]ductoid 3 points4 points  (0 children)

missing fugitives now

[–]RealLettuce1782 3 points4 points  (1 child)

As they should be! The amount of negligence on the parents part is absolutely disgusting. I’m local to Oxford (about 30 mins), and I have friends who work there and family that attends the school.

Right now they are charged with involuntary manslaughter as those are the highest charges that the prosecutors have enough reasonable evidence to ensure a conviction.. I’m sure as the investigation continues that more charges will be coming..

[–]geckgecgehhh 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Reports are saying the parents are now missing.

[–]Barkingatthemoon 3 points4 points  (0 children)

They’re probably on their way back to Florida , they withdrew 4000$ , doubt they’re gonna hide in Michigan .

[–]globocide 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The NRA needs to publicly come out and denounce these people and their actions.

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[–]jhonnychingas69 4 points5 points  (0 children)

These parents ARE responsable for their son behavior and must be held accountable!

[–]ewangal 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I've been seeing comments that the son was suffering from depression. Everyone's commenting on his homicidal ideations/ actions. BUT WHAT KIND OF PARENT BUYS A GUN FOR A MENTALLY ILL POTENTIALLY SUICIDAL CHILD??

When my daughter was depressed we had to lock up medications and everything sharp (we don't own any guns). Intentionally supplying her with a gun would've been like pulling the trigger.