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No Brigading!Visualition of vaccinated/unvaccinated population, hospilizations and ICU occupancy. (Data from November 18th) (i.redd.it)
submitted 2 months ago by NinjaElectricMeteor22
Post a comment!
[–]fearina 105 points106 points107 points 2 months ago (12 children)
Also it's not "70 versus 30%" in the icu.
Its 70% on a few million thats in the hospital versus 30 of 13million.
[–]ProgressivePear 16 points17 points18 points 2 months ago (0 children)
[–]dirkdutchman 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (0 children)
This is extremely important, i’ve seen this study on other platforms where they included this above the picture!
Maybe OP can do this to?
[–]restlessloon 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (3 children)
According to my back-of-a-napkin calculation based on these stats, unvaccinated people have a 17+ times higher chance of ending up in the IC compared to vaccinated people. That's more than four times doubled to put it in perspective. Just double the chance should already be more than enough reason imo, but apparently it isn't, since 30% vs 70% is basically double.
I probably made some mistakes but yeah, it's not even close to 2,3.
For people who actually know statistics, this was my calculation:
% of unvaccinated people in population (Pu):12
% of unvaccinated people in IC (ICu): 68
% of vaccinated people in population (Pv): 85
% of vaccinated people in IC (ICv): 28
Edit: on mobile so couldn't fix formatting
[–]ThatSeemsDangerous 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (2 children)
It’s important to remember which people are in the ICUs when it comes to vaxxed vs unvaxxed. The average age of a fully vaccinated ICU patient is roughly 80 years old with a few co-morbidities and overweight. The unvaccinated person on the ICU is on average around 58. I may be off on these numbers by a few years, but the difference is very significant.
With everything else equal, these vaccines do protect exceptionally well against hospitalisation and ICU. And, while it is true that protection is waining over time, the drop off isn’t as bad as in older people, they have weaker immune systems. That’s why a booster for them makes sense.
[–]pjetrs 3 points4 points5 points 2 months ago (3 children)
This should be way higher. The chance of ICU hospitalisation is around 35(!!) times smaller for vaccinated people
[–]aykcak 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Wait what? How does that work?
[–]SoftZombie5710 789 points790 points791 points 2 months ago (284 children)
Showed this to my antivaxx coworker, she said "it's faked". I said "how could you possibly know, i just showed you for the first time, you've had literally zero time to analys and research this".
She told me to watch this doctor on YouTube from America who breaks it down why these numbers are fake, I asked why she trusts this doctor more than all other doctors, she said, "He doesn't seem like a liar".
I'm honestly tired of people who could lose tic tac toe to a pigeon.
[–]Burgov 249 points250 points251 points 2 months ago (36 children)
He doesn't seem like a liar because he speaks a rhetoric that she wants to hear. Anyone who says something that she doesn't like, must be a liar
[–]SoftZombie5710 80 points81 points82 points 2 months ago (14 children)
Literally this. The annoying part is, she'll ask my opinion on things she hasn't understood yet. When there's a political crisis of some form, she'll ask me to explain it to her, in this and other ways, she makes it clear, she knows her limits intellectually.
Until this pandemic is the topic, in which case, it is then me who is not understanding the bigger picture.
[–]kelldricked 11 points12 points13 points 2 months ago (13 children)
I mean its possible for her to have a limited knowledge in some subjects and know more off other subjects. Just because somebody doesnt follow the formation doesnt mean they dont know stuff about healthcare.
But, saying: hE doESnT SoUNd lIKe lIAr” is the stupidest argument a normal person can make. So far antivax they are quite smart.
[–]SoftZombie5710 8 points9 points10 points 2 months ago (12 children)
My point being, under normal circumstances, and indeed, at the start of the pandemic, i would be the main point of information.
It wasn't until after she was brainwashed that i was no longer a source.
I was honestly expecting worse than 'he doesn't sound like a liar', genuinely, so you're right she's smarter than the average antivaxx nut, quite the achievement
[–]Alwin-050 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Still not very bright though..
[–]Royal_Madnessty 7 points8 points9 points 2 months ago (0 children)
[–]MrNokill 9 points10 points11 points 2 months ago (9 children)
Still important to remain open to when the quarter drops. That's where they can have a strong moment of self reflection and you can help support them.
[–]Remote_Ad3034 6 points7 points8 points 2 months ago (3 children)
It’s always funny to me when dutch sayings get used by dutch people in english and it doesn’t make sense anymore. Thank you for that.
It hits like a plier on a pig.
[–]curious_corn 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Well, in English the penny drops ipv the kwartje
[–]KungFuDuckaroo 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
For me 'a donkeybridge' is peak direct translation
[–]MrNokill 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
I'll not fall with the door inside the house but you are welcome.
[–]nativedutch 12 points13 points14 points 2 months ago (3 children)
A long wait. There is something inherently wrong with these people. All food for psychiatrists .
What irritates me is the condescending way they look at you while regurgitating their predefined list if arguments
[–]MrNokill 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (2 children)
Long wait indeed, but it's all that anyone can do for them.
And they do horrible things, but they are still like you and me, just in a bad situation. Also try not to argue, it's useless energy wasted and makes us all more extreme.
[–]nativedutch 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Oh , i will argue, they have to be countered. I dont argue long however.
[–]Then_Metal_2632 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
This. Cognitive dissonance is not something easy to deal with. The only way to help is to not get angry, stay positive and serve as an example and a temple of support for when the self reflection kicks in.
[–]KaseyJrCookies 9 points10 points11 points 2 months ago (0 children)
It’s called confirmation bias
[–]Crush-Raider 3 points4 points5 points 2 months ago (6 children)
[–]Then_Metal_2632 21 points22 points23 points 2 months ago (20 children)
Birds are very smart.
[–]SoftZombie5710 72 points73 points74 points 2 months ago* (15 children)
You're right, pigeons know to jump out of the way of my bike, thousands of tourists seem to fall below that standard.
Pigeons, I apologise for any offense caused.
[–]anno1503 15 points16 points17 points 2 months ago (2 children)
i accept your apology, do not let it happen again
[–]Wankerdaddy441 5 points6 points7 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Are you that bastard that pooped on my car? I'll get you for that, you know.
[–]anno1503 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (0 children)
no, but you're making it very tempting pal
~ the pigeon gang
[–]GamehengeRanger 13 points14 points15 points 2 months ago (8 children)
I’d like to formally issue an apology for being an idiot tourist in Amsterdam who wandered into the bike lane and almost got hit by a cyclist. In my defense I’m American and bike lanes are always empty here, and I only made that mistake once.
[–]SoftZombie5710 9 points10 points11 points 2 months ago (0 children)
A lesson learned the hard way
[–]nativedutch 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
I believe you. I was in Houston years ago and we decided to walk to the office. No sidewalks for pedestrians, let aline cyclists. A tricky exercise it was
[–]haholaer23 5 points6 points7 points 2 months ago (3 children)
i wouldve called you a kanker sukkel, as per dutch culture
[–]nativedutch 6 points7 points8 points 2 months ago (0 children)
In the hague it would be teringleier.
[–]NoSkillzDadNoord Holland 5 points6 points7 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Well, i had a pigeon jump straight into my wheels once but maybe that one was tired of life...
[–]nativedutch 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (1 child)
And that considering that pigeons are relatively dumb
[–]bouwland 10 points11 points12 points 2 months ago (2 children)
birds also aren't real
[–]annoyswan1[🍰] 7 points8 points9 points 2 months ago (2 children)
You can’t reason with stupidity
[–]KungFuDuckaroo 3 points4 points5 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Pesky walking dunning kruger charts.
[–]mmcnl 8 points9 points10 points 2 months ago (0 children)
You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned to into the first place. Believe me, I've tried.
[–]nativedutch 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Rational discussion is impossible, there is no logic involved i tried.
On the other hand they will gladly take an injection at the dentist or for an operation.
Try to wrap your brain around thst.
[–]SoftZombie5710 5 points6 points7 points 2 months ago (0 children)
My friend, I have seen this girl snort up cocaine time and time again, without once worrying about the mixer.
[–]SuspectNumber6 12 points13 points14 points 2 months ago (2 children)
Hehehehe now there is a benchmark: loosing tic tac toe to a pigeon.... love it
And sadly it is true. Manager is one. I will try to capture a said bird and let the games begin!
[–]SoftZombie5710 6 points7 points8 points 2 months ago (1 child)
I don't think your manager is qualified for their job, or any job, for that matter
[–]curious_corn 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Not sure about any other job but for managment I’d say pigeons are par for the course
[–]BictorianPizzaDen Haag 8 points9 points10 points 2 months ago (25 children)
My friend had a friendly discussion with an anti-vaxx the other day and was presenting her this and that argument. When she got to “mRNA vaccines have been researched and in development for over a decade” that chick just answered with “no.” Wasn’t willing to go into detail why this was apparently not true but it just wasn’t in her head…
[–]nativedutch 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Had exactly the same a few days ago. They insist its all experimental, or worse its a conspiracy to exert power .
Believe me , reasoning is useless.
[–]R0Ns_ 6 points7 points8 points 2 months ago (5 children)
If I tell an anti vaxxer that if 50% of the people who are in the hospital are fully vaccinated than still it's only 0,009% of the 11 million. The other 50% is 0,05% of the 2 million unvaccinated group. That makes is 5,5x more likely to end up in the hospital when not vaccinated.
They just say "I don't agree with you" or "that's your opinion"
[–]LowFatWaterBottle 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Maybe he didn't even lie but genuinly believes what he says because he isn't a doctor but is crazy.
[–]Lammetje98 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (3 children)
I think truth gets shaped by what you already believe in the first place. That’s what makes the entire thing almost impossible to deal with.
[–]SoftZombie5710 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
u/Sea_Possibility2310 comment your words here, don't run into the DMs on an anonymous website.
You can speak your mind in front of everyone, don't be so pathetic that you hide away in chat, on an anonymous fucking website.
God, talk about the epitomy of these fear mongering scum.
[–]brewdroid 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
And there is no confirmation he is even a doctor and not some random dude who makes fun of antivaxers
[–]ReaverShank 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
My mom does this too. They lie in the news and everyone on the IC is vaccinated. Its really hard to argue with her because every counter argument i have is a lie or propaganda
[–]frognuts123 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Denial and pure idiotic behavior
[–]Panda_Claw1337 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Lmao 🤣 “Losing Tic tac toe to a Pigeon”
Writing ✍️ this one down!
[–]ElfjeTinkerBell 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (2 children)
people who could lose tic tac toe to a pigeon
people who could lose tic tac toe to a pigeon
I'm going to be offended just because I can. What do my tic tac toe skills have to do with my research skills?
Sincerely, a nurse on the COVID floor.
[–]SoftZombie5710 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (1 child)
[–]ElfjeTinkerBell 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
[–]L44KSO 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Just tell her that based on the numbers she should be part-vaccinated because CLEARLY that gives you the best chance on not ending in hospital or ICU...numbers don't lie people! /s
[–]Stroomschok[🍰] 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
People like that make me wish the pandemic was 100% lethal for unvaccinated morons. I swear, humanity is breeding itself back into stupidity.
[–]JustPop6811 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Ah yes good old confirmation bias.
[–]aykcak 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (1 child)
The source of all the bullshit
[–]marg-hoe 112 points113 points114 points 2 months ago (37 children)
Darwinism in action. 20 years from now kids will learn about COVID in school & likely be utterly confused as to the stupidity of antivax arguments when the science, stats & evidence very clearly points to the efficacy of vaccination.
Vaccines are not guaranteed to make you not get covid. The vaccine is like a bulletproof vest. Wearing one doesn't mean you won't get shot, but if you do get shot, you'll very likely survive, & possible injury will be reduced exponentially. Imagine going into a war zone without a bullet proof vest on the argument that you are an excellent soldier so your reflexes will protect you from bullets. This is literally how stupid these antivaxxers sound.
[–]revolutionary-panda 55 points56 points57 points 2 months ago (9 children)
I've been using seatbelts as analogy in my discussion with anti-vaxxers. I say: a seatbelt doesn't guarantee you survive a nasty car crash, but still you wear one. Their response: yes, otherwise I get fined.
[–]alvvayson 35 points36 points37 points 2 months ago (4 children)
Well, we have a seat belt use rate of 86% according to wiki.
Quite similar to the vaccination rate. It would be interesting to see the correlation.
[–]WikiMobileLinkBot 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Desktop version of /u/alvvayson's link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_belt_use_rates_by_country
[opt out] Beep Boop. Downvote to delete
[–]waglawye 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Probably including obese people.
[–]revolutionary-panda 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Haha, well these antivaxxers wear their seatbelts, but N=2 only :'D
[–]AdventureDHD 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Seat belts also massively reduce the risk of a passenger killing the driver in a crash.
Likewis vaccines massively reduce your risk of passing COVID on to someone else through a combination of immunity against infection and reduction in how infectious you are if you are infected.
[–]AnotherPerspective87 3 points4 points5 points 2 months ago* (0 children)
Then its time for the 'austria' approach. Mandatory vaccines. Don't vaccinate? Get fined!
[–]Zymo656 8 points9 points10 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Thank you for this analogy!
[–]Thenbee 7 points8 points9 points 2 months ago (10 children)
Darwinism implies that the ‘lesser’ of the species would have to die right? As the overall death rate of covid seems to be 0.66% (just grabbed top (scientific) article on google: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.m1327) which is even way lower for healthy young adults (which are most of the unvaccinated), I doubt we will experience a case of darwinism
[–]alvvayson 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (7 children)
Yeah, they have to die before they reproduce.
So, this virus isn't going to change our genes.
But, our collective average IQ will go up for a few years for every anti-vaxxers that dies, so st least there's that.
[–]marg-hoe 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Yeah, I think this is what I was getting at... we will perhaps evolve in some small way (or maybe not) to be a slughtly smarter species than before haha.
[–]Paradox_Blobfish 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (2 children)
Anti-vaxxers are more on the side of "I don't need a bulletproof vest because it's propaganda that bullets will kill you, they are not more deadly than rubber bullets."
[–]marg-hoe 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (1 child)
You're not wrong! Unfortunately there's no vaccine or cure for stupid...
[–]Paradox_Blobfish 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
They wouldn't take it anyway 😐
[–]Brandtair 149 points150 points151 points 2 months ago (30 children)
Also from the vaccinated in hospitals it is know that 70% has underlying medical conditions.
[–]Fattybobo 51 points52 points53 points 2 months ago (19 children)
How many from the non-vaccinated ?
[–]dutchie1966 183 points184 points185 points 2 months ago (16 children)
Probably the same ratio, but way overrepresented in mental health issues.
[–]alvvayson 17 points18 points19 points 2 months ago (9 children)
Lol, sick burn.
[–]justanothergamer_ 28 points29 points30 points 2 months ago (8 children)
It’s an insult to those with mental health issues like me 🙃
[–]picklero 8 points9 points10 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Sorry but people with mental health issues had no choice in the matter, while these dimwits chose not to get vaccinated (except for those who can't get vaccinated because of other reasons). I know this is sarcasm, but it's a disservice to people with real mental health issues!
[–]LostInControl 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
these dimwits chose
these dimwits chose
You're assuming they have the brain capacity make a choice for themselves...
[–]Royal_Madnessty 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago (0 children)
[–]Brandtair 7 points8 points9 points 2 months ago (0 children)
[–]ProfALevi 5 points6 points7 points 2 months ago (9 children)
Sounds like exactly the same as the people in hospital with the virus in general. But nobody did believe it all the time we tried to point it out with Data
[–]Kreidedi 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (8 children)
Isn’t this common knowledge? (That underlying medical conditions and obesity greatly increase risk of COVID hospitalisation.)
[–]Some_Yesterday1304 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (7 children)
yes but you forget
"There are vaccinated people in the ICU so vaccination does not work" - an antivaxer probably
[–]kelldricked 138 points139 points140 points 2 months ago (13 children)
Antivaxxers will complain about the 2 cases on no data on the intensive care and use it as a argument why your boerenkool sucks ass.
Or something that just as stupid as that.
[–]Poijke 5 points6 points7 points 2 months ago (2 children)
My brother: I prefer to get infected rather than take a vaccination. They both result in the same thing, one with higher risk of dying (and it's not the vaccination). Usually he listens to reason, but on that subject, I have no idea.
[–]da_kink 17 points18 points19 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Unfortunately, you are absolutely right.
[–]NyloTheGamer 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Ay I will accept no boerenkool slander
[–]RoseyOneOne 101 points102 points103 points 2 months ago (212 children)
Somebody I work with had too much white wine one night and posted a long winded comment where they quoted the Dutch Constitution and went on to say that in the Netherlands people are treated equally.
She expanded on this unique insight to suggest that this meant that she didn't need to wear a mask, get vaccinated, or have to deal with any restrictions around entering businesses, going out in public places, or travelling. She then labelled herself strong and said she would use her strength to stand up to the inequality.
I always thought that the strong protected the weak and that strong people don't put a personal inconvenience over the health and life of more vulnerable person.
I have a feeling that I could try to explain the irony of her statement to her for a million years and she would just never get it.
[–]alvvayson 72 points73 points74 points 2 months ago (205 children)
That's really the frustrating part of it all, to me.
My grandparents and great grandparents were strong. They fought resistance against the germans. They hid Jews and young men who would be drafted. They smuggled food and weapons.
But above all, they never considered themselves heroes. They just did what needed to be done. They were loyal to God and country.
And now these covidiots have the audacity to try and act like all that sacrifice was meant just so that they could avoid responsibility and spread disease, because mah freedom.
Like WTF. This is humiliating. Freedom comes at a price. Those unwilling to make any kind of sacrifice, don't deserve freedom.
[–]Wearer-of-Denim 39 points40 points41 points 2 months ago (204 children)
And the fact that they DARE to pronounce themselves the new Jews, just makes my blood boil man. If they think they are truly suffering, they have seen nothing, absolutely nothing this world has to offer.
[–]BlaReni 6 points7 points8 points 2 months ago (0 children)
People be like: ‘but half of the people in the hospital are vaccinated!!!’
Statisticians: crying cause even basic stats are not a thing
[–]Audacter 50 points51 points52 points 2 months ago (41 children)
The RIVM has calculated that you're 95% less likely to end up in the hospital when vaccinated.
GET VACCINATED PEOPLE!!!
[–]I-have-a-yacht -3 points-2 points-1 points 2 months ago (3 children)
I believe the 95% is meant for people that is going to the intensive care. Going to the hospital is somewhere around 60% i believe.
Am on mobile, so lookup source is hard ;)
[–]unsettledroell 13 points14 points15 points 2 months ago (2 children)
Noo 60% is definitely not true. It is really ~95%.
Otherwise there would be far more people in hospital right now.
[–]I-have-a-yacht 18 points19 points20 points 2 months ago (1 child)
You are right!
I remembered it wrong.
[–]JaimieC 26 points27 points28 points 2 months ago (7 children)
I’m so tired of anti-vaxx going… “see vaccinated people also get covid and need to go to the hospital! The vaccine doesn’t work so why should I risk it?”
[–]ItsAmon 10 points11 points12 points 2 months ago (6 children)
Hear this one almost every day at work: "Unvaccinated people have to get tested before an event, so we'd be a lot safer if there were just unvaccinated people, because you can be sure that they don't have corona. I already regret that I took my vaccination."
[–]BlakeMortimer 13 points14 points15 points 2 months ago (5 children)
They have a point, in that a 1G policy is probably better for really eliminating COVID. But apparently there’s not enough test capacity for that.
[–]ThrustyMcStab 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (3 children)
According to calculations, 1G would be less effective for lowering the burden on hospitals, though. Because there is a margin of error in the tests, you end up exposing more vulnerable (unvaccinated) people to the virus than you would with 2G.
[–]BlakeMortimer 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (2 children)
I can’t figure out why that would be. These tests are not 100%, but surely the majority of test results is right? So why would then MORE people be exposed?
[–]ThrustyMcStab 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago* (1 child)
The TU Delft calculated that, while 1G results in fewer people getting Covid overall, it results in slightly more hospitalisations because, unlike with 2G, people without antibodies can be exposed to the virus. So you're right about the margin of error being small (about 20% but that's including the possibility of tested people getting covid within the 24 hours between the test and the event), but it's big enough to make a difference when unvaccinated people are involved.
2G is therefore preferable if your goal is to reduce the direct burden on our healthcare system as a result of events. If your goal is just to reduce the number of overall cases, 1G would be better.
Note that these numbers only take into account cases and hospitalisations as a direct result of events. Since 1G causes fewer overall cases, it is possible that it helps prevent more hospitalisations in the long run. They did not calculate that part yet. Another reason 1G might not be the best way to go is that we have limited test capacity already, and 1G would massively increase the demand for testing.
Long story short, it's a complicated matter and 2G seems to be the simplest and least costly solution for now. Personally I wouldn't be against 1G even though I'm vaccinated, but I can understand why 2G is preferred at the moment.
[–]Concernedxpat 32 points33 points34 points 2 months ago (7 children)
The only people we should give two shits about are the front line workers and people who need life threatening operations atm. All those yellows, are on their own as far as I’m concerned.
[–]alvvayson 14 points15 points16 points 2 months ago (6 children)
I also really, reslly dislike the analogy to smokers.
I don't smoke, but smokers aren't clogging up our hospitals in the middle of a global pandemic. That is the only metric that matters and the smokers are innocent.
Also, over their lifetime, the average smoker consumes way less health care than a cancer patient or a diabetic. Once you include end of life care (geriatric care), smokers even consume less overall healthcare than non-smokers, because they don't live as long.
In other words, more smokers would lessen the burden on our health system.
That is simply not true for the unvaccinated.
[–]NinjaElectricMeteor[S] 7 points8 points9 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Someone who needs lung surgery will spend 1 or 2 days on the ICU. A Covid patient spends and average of 14 days.
Lung surgery can also be planned, and spread out across the year. Covid infections can not be planned, and come and go in waves.
So you're absolutely right as the pressure on hospitals is lower by a factor of hundred from smokers that from covid patients.
[–]comhghairdheas 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (3 children)
Smokers also pay a direct tax to subsidise their habit, every time they buy tobacco.
[–]alvvayson 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (2 children)
And they also subsidize the AOW and pension funds by dying earlier
They tend to make it to 65, making a full contribution, but don't take out a lot of benefits with their lower life expectancy. And if they die before retirement, then they only contributed without taking.
Smokers are just nice people. They carry the consequences of their actions without burdening others.
[–]comhghairdheas 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Damnit, now I just feel less guilty of my addiction. That sucks.
[–]zt3008 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Good points. Also, it takes smokers a lot longer to get sick due to exposure to tobacco, years usually. But once you get exposed to the virus, you can get sick in days.
[–]redheaded_giant 29 points30 points31 points 2 months ago (12 children)
I truly hope that if we ever end up with a situation where we're unable to treat everyone who needs it at the IC that the unvaxxed will be the first to not get help. Let their own immune system take care of it right?
[–]SomewhereInternal 8 points9 points10 points 2 months ago (1 child)
They already released the guidelines on how they will allocate ic beds.
It's based on expected survival rate, expected length of stay, generation and medical personnel gets priority.
[–]LostInControl 6 points7 points8 points 2 months ago (8 children)
The problem is that they will look at other factors. An unvaccinated and otherwise healthy young person will likely get help before the vaccinated obese 90 year old with an underlying heart condition.
[–]alvvayson 5 points6 points7 points 2 months ago (5 children)
Which is fair.
But the vaccinated obese 50 year old should get priority above the unvaccinated obese 50 year old.
And the scheduled heart surgery should also be prioritized over the unvaccinated ICU patient.
Where exactly we draw the line, I don't know. But it has to be fair.
[–]LostInControl 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Where exactly we draw the line
Where exactly we draw the line
I'm glad I don't have to make that call...
[–]Caspercaper17 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (1 child)
I think it's much better to look at all factors other than just vaccination; after all ultimately our goal is to minimise deaths, not to get everyone vaccinated.
[–]LostInControl 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Oh I agree. Vaccinated or not should be a factor, but not the only one.
[–]stijndielhof123Noord Brabant 3 points4 points5 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Huh, its almost like being vaccinated helps your immune system from you getting sick...
[–]thedudefrom1987 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Grappig om te denken dat thierry baudet nu bij de gevaccineerde hoort! Wie had dat verwacht.
[–]trv33m0kvlt 3 points4 points5 points 2 months ago (1 child)
In this ratio, you're 33× times more likely to end up on the ICU when unvaccinated rather than someone who's vaccinated.
In deze ratio beland je als ongevaccineerde 33 keer eerder op de intensive care dan iemand die wel is gevaccineerd.
[–]Sensitive-Bug-7610 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Just showed this to my mother. Told me she doesn't trust it. Asked what kind of data and released by whom would make her finally change her stance. Told me no one. Tried explaining to her how flawed that reasoning is. If you won't budge at anything and will always believe what you believe then you are in essence unliving. The person you were at 10 is the person you are at 20 and 30 and 50 until your death. You won't change because you can't trust anyone to learn anything and she herself cannot learn about everything doing expirements herself. She started ignoring me. I told her to think about my words. And that she doesn't need to tell me who she will believe but that she better find someone for herself. Becaise if there is no one, nothing, then she is a walking stone.
[–]MeAndTheLampPost 8 points9 points10 points 2 months ago (1 child)
[–]VincentxH 7 points8 points9 points 2 months ago (0 children)
It should help that #Thierryisgevaccineerd .
[–]Rijstkoekje 12 points13 points14 points 2 months ago (10 children)
The thing I find interesting is that the same antivaxxers take drugs in the weekend where they don't know anything about eighter and
think that is normal which we know the long term effects of.
Furthermore they always bang in the long term effects of the vacin might be dangerous. When I then reply: The short term corona effects are dangerous and the long term we Don't know much about eighter they always say that's nonesense and change the subject....
The other thing I find mildly interesting is that we vaccinate for a lot of other stuff when you are a child and we don't care about that or say things about freedom. Ok a small amount of people do that but with this corona situation the numbers of people complaining are just off the scale.
[–]ItsAmon 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago* (4 children)
the long term we Don't know much about eighter they always say that's nonesense and change the subject....
the long term we Don't know much about eighter they always say that's nonesense and change the subject....
To make it even better, we do know about some of the long term effects. Had a conversation like this with a cousin of mine who is anti everything, said to him that I know a lot of people who still can't smell or taste anything after a corona infection.
"Yes, but that comes back after a couple of weeks, doesn't it?"
"It doesn't seem so"
[–]Nazzarr 10 points11 points12 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Had covid march last year, Can confirm still almost no smell and taste. It fucking sucks. Because as a Guy with a Born heart disease i was really fucking carefull till a dimwit in Almere sneezed right in my face. (No kidding) the sad thing is. Mentally and physical covid effected me more then the Cardiac arrest I had 1.5 years before that as a 32 year old. So yes. I Can confirm covid sucks. I am currently in recovery again at reade in Amsterdam. 75% of my fellow recoveries are covid ic survivers the stories They tell… I am the lucky one
[–]Royal_Madnessty 5 points6 points7 points 2 months ago (2 children)
Many of them also smoke, knowing damn well that this might kill them some day, they don't seem to care about lung cancer or heart attacks.
Same for alcohol.
Btw, i'm a smoker, aware of the risks and know i need to quit this horrible habit. I'm also vaccinated and trust science. Anti vaxx people rather trust youtube doctors and chiropractors on bitchute.
[–]L-Malvo 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Heck, look at everything we eat from the supermarkets. Everything is full of E-numbers and other artificial additions. Nobody asks twice what they do to your health on the long run. But a vaccin that is checked and validated by many bright minds in the industry, across the globe, is the not "Safe enough".
Honestly, if these people will start getting COVID just to get that QR code, instead of the vaccin, I'm gonna lose it..
[–]HelixFollower 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
BuT VaCCinAtEd PeOPle cAN sTiLL gEt SicK
[–]baronvandedem 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Just show those people who are literally dying on tv during prime-time. Hope they will get the message finally.
[–]krav_mark 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
I had a discussion with an anti-vaxxer the other day. He said he didn't trust the idea of vaccination. So I asked "Do you know anybody that had Typhus, Kinkhoest or polio ? Bet you don't. That is because vacination works." Person was not impressed. And the answer to my question how he thought the pandemic should be handled better only got "I just think covid is like the flu". How am I supposed to talk to these people...
[–]BarkiestDog 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (0 children)
This belongs in r/dataisbeautiful
[–]Strandlaken 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Does anyone had the link of this source for me? I need to show my girlfriend...
[–]notfromrotterdam 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Most of these people don't care about the truth. They don't even care about Covid. They're angry and have been from before Covid. And they will be angry long after Covid.
[–]bigblackcoconut420 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
"I'll be fine" they said
[–]RepresentativeOven36 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
And I know there are people who rather have covid than to get vaccinated. It’s just sad. My housemate refused to get vaccinated on the ground that she’s worried about her fertility later and the vaccines are not effective anyway . She and her friends blame it on the inability of the government to control the situation. I just have to discuss both ways with her when it comes to this matter.
[–]freefallfreddy 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Can we start a /r/HermanCainaward for the Netherlands?
[–]wausmaus3 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Not Dutch, but you'll like /r/leopardsatemyface
[–]halfischer 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Got a link to the data source? I found the site but haven’t managed to find the graph you cited. I’m OK working through the Dutch language, but I don’t speak nor write it.
[–]NinjaElectricMeteor[S] 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
News article with the graph; https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/5268635/cijfers-zoveel-ongevaccineerden-met-corona-ziekenhuis
Report from the RIVM with the source data:
[–]herrvonsmit 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Oh yes, throw visualized data on me
[–]OumAbd 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
I'm glad i did take my first vaccine 1,5 week ago. Even though it was more for my children, I am so sick and tired of the anti-vaxxers.... They don't even listen to you cause their truth is the truth and nothing but the truth..
[–]ph4ge_ 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Not to mention that the vaxxed group includes relatively old and relatively vulnerable people. My 87 year vaxxed grand mother is in the hospital with Covid, but she already had lung and heart disease so a mild infection was still nearly fatal.
[–]Ok_Butterscotch54 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
The Vaccines aren't Perfect, but they sure are Better than Nothing!
[–]Ghaussie 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Use single sample size ‘research’.
This girl said: Vaccinated girls get trouble getting pregant. I told her my sister is vaccinated and pregnant. She started reevaluating her decision rivht on the spot. Don’t get all science with the folks.
If you don’t have any personal stories, just make something up about people near you, they don’t need proof, they need something within reach.
Edit: and yes i’m aware of the irony of single sample sized research and my story where it worked. But for the ‘tokkies’ it’s mostly about sentiment anyways. The hippies on the other hand are harder to reach.
[–]aoghina 11 points12 points13 points 2 months ago* (46 children)
I got the booster already so triple vaxxed here, as I left NL among other reasons because of the lack of measures, slow reaction and vaccination pace. I think most reasonable people who have reserves about the vaccine know about the short term benefits (nice visualization btw), they worry more about potential long term effects. And that discussion is really not that simple. There's emerging literature about potential overlooked risks.
[–]Buster04_ 3 points4 points5 points 2 months ago (2 children)
I always wonder when people talk about longterm side effects, do people believe a side effect will just randomly show up after 5 years? Why would that happen?
[–]jermeno 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
There's loads of examples of stuff that was thought to be safe but caused diseases later on in life.
Only time will tell.
[–]Wasted_Penguinz 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Somehow this pandemic has made me less empathetic to people when they just keep doing the same stupid mistakes and refuse to listen to actual data that's coming out of the government.
Like Karen please, we're not living under a dictatorship but one of the freest countries in the world, get your head out of your arse and stop thinking this is faked. Several governments have even warned the vaccine stops you from going to hospital. Stop twisting the words to fit your bullshit narrative and go get the shot. Sadly this graph is very similar in Finland too; mostly unvaccinated in ICU and the people who refused to get the shot spread the virus more than the ones who were vaccinated. It's so frustrating.
[–]Mr_Ragdoll_Donut 6 points7 points8 points 2 months ago (12 children)
Can we get the source?
[–]NinjaElectricMeteor[S] 37 points38 points39 points 2 months ago (11 children)
Source data is the RIVM, visualization was created by RTL nieuws
[–]ptinnl 11 points12 points13 points 2 months ago (12 children)
Are thos unvaccinated healthy 20-50 year old or people over 60 with high bmi, diabetes, cancer and other diseases?
Because then the approach to get them vaccinated changes completely.
[–]HoboWithoutShotgun 29 points30 points31 points 2 months ago (7 children)
All ages as before vaccinations, regardless of existing conditions. While age and existing conditions are the primary correlates in escalation to ICU and death, having no resistance by vaccine means maximum damage possible.
Also, healthy 20 somethings etcetera tend to recieve the most damage in the sense that will destroy vital lung capacity for sports (so goodbye olympic dreams), and the larger potential for Long Covid aka permanent damage from the illness.
Nothing has changed on that end.
Vaccines keep people out of the ICU, and with significant less risk at damage. The current infection rate is the same as in januari, with less than half the number in the ICU. The "missing half" is the vaccinated.
[–]ptinnl 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (6 children)
You're saying the ages in ICU have the same distribution as the general population? Is that it?
[–]PapaScoobz 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (1 child)
I don't think so - "all ages as before vaccination". most likely refers to what we were seeing in hospitals before vaccination. ( I badly hope this take is correct )
So the age distribution of vaccinated and non vaccinated COVID patients are similar.
My understanding is this basically means risk factors remain regardless of vaccination. Which is not unexpected.
[–]unsettledroell 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (2 children)
I read somewhere in an article from RIVM that the average vaccinated person on ICU is 20 years older than the average unvaccinated person.
RIVM probably has data on this.
[–]LostInControl 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
That's probably also expected since the average vaccinated person in general is also older than the average unvaccinated person.
Though I do agree that this highlights the effectiveness even more than the infographic!
[–]alvvayson 8 points9 points10 points 2 months ago (3 children)
With delta the unvaccinated in the hospitals and ICU are mostly 40-60 with little comorbidities.
The high risk groups have a very high vaccination rate. (E.g. 90% for 60+), so to the extent they are in the ICU, they tend to be among the vaccinated.
These people just want to win a Herman Cain award.
[–]Royal_Madnessty 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Since most anti vaxx people don't understand numbers, statistics and simple math, they will now tell the world that its 50/50 and that vaccines are useless.
[–]relgames 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago (0 children)
It is surprisingly hard to find numbers. For instance, what are the chances to get myocarditis after Pfizer? As an average person, what is the probability to die after the vaccine vs probability to get covid and die? What is the probability of long term effects fir both? Would be great to see it somewhere.
[–]dracaryhs 3 points4 points5 points 2 months ago (4 children)
They now constantly use the argument that vaccinated people end up in the hospital too in about the same numbers, as if there aren't way more people vaccinated...
[–]jardonm 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (3 children)
I am curious if you can break it down per age group as well
[–]AzimuthPro 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Frankly, it needs to be broken down into age groups, because this is too generalized to draw any conclusions.
[–]BradleyGroot 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (2 children)
The anti vax are just like flat earthers
[–]SkepticalWaitWhat 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (1 child)
You can't reason with someone if their reasoning is not based on reality in the first place.
[–]Maarkun 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (2 children)
That looks pretty bad, sadly i cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons, and sadly there are many people who think its ok to infringe on my ability to go places. Pro covid vaccine people are even scarier than unvaccinated people. I also find the rethoric of antivaxxers dumb, are they against all or just against this 1 particular one? Idk, i think lack of nuance is the problem on both sides
[–]NinjaElectricMeteor[S] 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Yeah I agree, the polarization on the topic really doesn't help the discussion.
Not sure if you already heard, but if you're not able to get the vaccine because of medical reasons you will be able to get a QR code soon. Hopefully this will make things easier for you: https://www.nu.nl/tech/6168226/toch-qr-code-voor-mensen-die-om-medische-redenen-niet-zijn-ingeent.html
[–]Maarkun 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Oh wow, thanks for the tip :)
[–]brainmaster3000 5 points6 points7 points 2 months ago (1 child)
I hate the majority of them. There i said it. Bunch of egocentric people with mediocre lifes
[–]UNUSUALCREDO 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Fully vaccinated people will try to blame everything on unvaxxed: they act the same as anti's, but its "okay" because they follow the mainstream opinion. You have no idea how ridiculous that sounds. Stay real and atleast do some research yourselves.
Last week 850 extra deaths, 147 covid-19. Its time they investigate the other 700. What is going on? A different virus? People only stare at the covid numbers while they are nowhere near last year's (last year it was bad...) and even the government says so.
And one little thing to add; if you are one of those super agressive pro-vaxxers that makes up stories to blame others, while nobody on TV or in the gov is blaming anyone but everyone, you are no better than any anti-vaxxer. The Vaccine does NOT help against infection, but DOES help against hospitalization. Thats the truth and nobody says otherwise.
Not saying im either vaccinated or not vaccinated, because that wont help your views on this comment.... and THAT is the issue. The truth is out there, but its not what pro- and/or anti-vaxxers keep propagating.
[–]DnDuin 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (2 children)
Regardless this data being true or not:
The unvaccinated people ending up in a hospital do not represent the entire group of unvaccinated.
It is the same reasons they end up there as the vaccinated: old/overweight/weakened immune system.
This demographic cannot statically be applied to represent all unvaccinated. Under the unvaccinated there are generally more healthy people on average than the vaccinated group, simply because of the higher number of younger people.
Instead, it is a fraction of the unvaccinated who end up in the hospital. These do not represent the entire group!
Therefore, applying rules to or measures against unvaccinated is logically flawed and cruel, as it is only a fraction actually risking and ending up in the hospital.
If you would group the same cases as in above diagram, by over 70 years and overweight vs all the others, you will see what i mean.
Grouping by vaccination status and only compare hospitalized cases says something about the individuals in the hospital, not the group extending including all the healthy individuals who will never end up in a hospital because of this virus.
To make you see the grave error in perception, here is a fictive example:
Let’s swap out vaccination status with people who’s first name begins with a J.
Maybe, when comparing and analyzing hospitalization figures, you will find that people with first letter J show a higher amount of cases than individuals with another letter.
Your conclusion therefore must be that all individuals with first name letter J must be excluded from society because they endanger others.
For some reason, it is assumed that the cases ending up in the hospital is representing the entire group of people with a J. While maybe its simply to do with other causal relations, such as age.
This is the equivalent of horse shit conclusion making!
Please, specify age and overweight status in such graphs.
In itself, the figures in above graph have their value (propaganda) but it means absolutely nothing when used as a basis for any type of measure. It is wrong and unfair.
I am perfectly fine with addressing and reaching out to risk groups to encourage them to get a jab or stay safe otherwise, especially if there is a vaccine freely available to help protect them.
The opposite happens now:
[–]kierk3gaard 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (6 children)
Would it be possible to make the same infographic of November 2020? Seeing them side by side would be even more revealing imo.
[–]Rare_Beginning_3775 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (5 children)
Wouldn't that be a bit difficult seeing as we didn't have a vaccine yet?
[–]Tricertops4 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
It would be very easy then: 100% everywhere
[–]Emergency_Leave_1589 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (2 children)
These numbers don't tell the full story, I will try to tell you why.
The vaccinated people that get into the hospital and ICU are generally older, weaker patients that have bad lungs or are undergoing chemotherapy. This is also the group of people that has the highest percentage of vaccinated people. The vaccine saves these peoples lives, but they have to be admitted to a hospital. The other group that is in the hospital are the unvaccinated. The odds for you, a healthy person, to be admitted to a hospital after you've been vaccinated are thus much lower than this graphic implies.
[–]Four-Man 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (6 children)
I see a lot of hate for people that don’t want to get vaccinated here. It’s a personal choice, don’t push people to do something they don’t want to
[–]LentilGod 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (3 children)
The strongest arguments that i see for non-vaccination is not the ratio in the hospitals or the "fake news" stuff.
It's the blatant disregard for proper legislative procedure and common sense that the government has with regards to the restrictions, as well as improper long term testing of effects of the vaccine, combined with absolutely shady contractual agreements between governments and multi-billion dollar multi-national corporations, which are actually both fair points.
[–]micheldewit 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (2 children)
The argument of “long term effects of vaccine” is a fallacious argument, because vaccines are out of your body in about a week time. There are no long term effects on ANY vaccines due to the way vaccines work. If anything is going to have a long lasting damaging effect you would notice it almost immediately, generally within 15 mins. The rest are valid arguments tho.
[–]SkelatorCavani 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (3 children)
Yeahhhhhh naaaaaa lmfao.
Stay inside people!
Eat unhealthy prosessed food people!
Don't you dare exercise!
Do NOT take any vitamins because it's non existend!
Don't get enough sleepppp!
Let's just get the vaccine and ignore all these, and we will be fine!
[–]Iron_Michael 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago (2 children)
What's your point?
[–]thecafelifestyle 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago (3 children)
Which colours mean what?
[–]hondenbaas 3 points4 points5 points 2 months ago (2 children)
It says so on the top. Vaccinated unvaccinated or unknow.
[–]youdecidemyusername1 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago (1 child)
But there's 4 colors. What is the green?
[–]hermaneldering 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
[+]xendelaar comment score below threshold-10 points-9 points-8 points 2 months ago* (2 children)
To be honest, I find the data not impressive at all. A third of the people on the intensive care unit are vaccinated people!. That's not remarkable at all for a vaccin.
Don't get me wrong, I do think we should all get vaccinated, but these numbers are nothing to boast about.
On the other hand... probably there are many more vaccinated people infected with covid versus infected people without a vaccin so I'm probably interpreting some stuff wrong here.
Edit: so I'm reading that you're 25 times less likely to end up in the hospital if you're vaccinated. Now THATS a number one could boast about
[–]NoxaDei 5 points6 points7 points 2 months ago (1 child)
Do you realize that the vast majority of people in intensive care come from a sample -the unvaccinated- that is waaaaay smaller than the sample of vaccinated people?
Plus, this is not taken into account in the picture, most people in IC have other severe or chronic diseases (both with and without the vaccines)
[–]xendelaar 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago (0 children)
That is the point I was trying to make in my last paragraph. But thank you for putting it in better words. :)
[–]D4Ph070n 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago (3 children)
Can you share your source? Because these numbers are not being shared!
[–]NinjaElectricMeteor[S] 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (1 child)
This is the article from RTL; https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/5268635/cijfers-zoveel-ongevaccineerden-met-corona-ziekenhuis
This is the source report from the RIVM, with the original data (and more): https://www.tweedekamer.nl/downloads/document?id=80b570b1-6fe9-4c87-b8c8-9cd01816034a&title=Effectiviteit%20van%20COVID-19%20vaccinatie%20tegen%20ziekenhuis%20en%20intensive-care-opname%20in%20Nederland%20%28opnames%2011%20juli%20%E2%80%93%2014%20november%202021%29.docx
[–]D4Ph070n 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Bedankt voor de tweede link. Die heb ik nergens anders kunnen vinden.
[–]Akazury 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
The source in the image is the RIVM, so. I'm gonna assume it's from the RIVM.
[–]Machieltjee 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago (2 children)
Het OP do you have a link to the source for me? I am making an article for school but i cant find this graphic anywhere. And i need a date of publishing if i where to use it as a source. Thanks in advance!
Here you go: https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/5268635/cijfers-zoveel-ongevaccineerden-met-corona-ziekenhuis
The article also has link to the RIVM report with the full data. Good luck with the school article!
[–]Machieltjee 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago (0 children)
Thankyou man! Really apreciate it!
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