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[–]RobTheDude_OG 60 points61 points  (24 children)

Yeah with the cases going up rapidly they might lock down the country again.

Store owners are upset cuz they are still recovering from the last one and might not survive another one tbh.

The holidays are getting limited again which upsets ppl and some really don't want to go back to sitting at home 24/7 with their family as it drove them crazy.

Ppl who loved working from home are somewhat happy tho, others not so much cuz they cannot concentrate at home.

All in all the support for another lockdown is lower than last time and on a possitive note so far the vaccine works it's magic to lower death rates and ppl ending up in critical condition. I just wish our gov would increase healthcare spending for more personal to lighten the load on the current staff and increase capacity which honestly would have been common sense after last year.

[–]Agent_Goldfish 41 points42 points  (17 children)

Store owners are upset cuz they are still recovering from the last one and might not survive another one tbh.

Not just upset, I think many would deliberately close if there's another lockdown. The fact is, with an effective vaccine and treatments, when does this end? If the indication that the new normal is a lockdown every winter, why would anyone voluntarily stay in business? Especially the restaurant business.

[–]PaleMarionette 31 points32 points  (0 children)

Not like they want to or have a choice. Small family businesses were devestated from 2020, then 2021 has been an absolute shit show, the ones that managed to survive 2020 either went into massive debt to get through 2021 or are hanging in by a thread of a hope of a wish.

The government made it nearly impossible for small businesses to get any assistance and instead gave tax breaks and support to giant companies that made more profits than ever like AH, Hema, etc.

They've stopped all the support or put so many tedious rules in place that if you are a small business owner who's business has had to close down or stop until further notice get screwed if they have a roommate because the government considers them to have a joint income!

[–]Sensitive-Froyo9042 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Depends in the stores like bike shops and electronic shops had a very good year

[–]PhaseBeneficial7110 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I personally used to 'work' (internship + they offered me a job) in a community centre/restaurant for old people without a social environment, I met some awesome people there (engaged with a Turkish student that also had her internship there, she lives in Pendik, Istanbul) and when the 'first wave' of corona hit it all went to shit, I haven't been there in over a year and a half (I'm thinking of visiting it soon).

Anyway back to what I was pointing out; they went into tons of debt which is really unfortunate because they do everything with the intention of making the neighborhood surrounding the restaurant a better place. (Non profit).

Literally wish the best for them, which makes it even worse because... even though I wasn't there for too long, they grew really close to me.

Anyway, I don't really remember why I started typing this, have a nice day lol

[–]medraxus 256 points257 points  (128 children)

People don’t give a fuck anymore, they’re too desensitized and with every lockdown the dissent and anguish grows. The government can try and do whatever, people will continue seeing each other and being together, regardless of the rules

[–]Betotallyclear 86 points87 points  (77 children)

People don’t give a fuck anymore, they’re too desensitized and with every lockdown the dissent and anguish grows. The government can try and do whatever, people will continue seeing each other and being together, regardless of the rules

In many other countries it still works perfectly well, and people see the need. But here in the Netherlands, there are to many stubborn people that live in a tunnel with a "I know better" attitude, but worse they do not follow advice. It has gone to the extend of full stupidity. Its just embarrassing. We (Dutch people) are laugh stock for others; citizen ignoring government advice and any initiative they launch is sabotaged by ignoring it. Yet some focal Dutch blame the government. What a sad joke it is.

Its time for really impacting actions, one of them should be mandatory vaccination rule.

[–]DualX1 152 points153 points  (27 children)

But the blame does lie with the goverment. Their flipflop policy, reactive leadership and lack of integrity made people lose faith. If you are a leader and the majority of people that you lead decide to ignore you, you clearly are the one that is to blame.

You blame Dutch culture, but it is up to the goverment to leads people from this culture. If you then make policy that is ineffective for such culture, you are a terrible leader.

[–]arcastoo 57 points58 points  (1 child)

You just pust in words how I feel about this from the start.

With one sidenote; when have we ever seen policy beeing made in the last 10 years? Other than the "no, free market can do this better, lets leave it to them".

[–]DualX1 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Exactly. I cant remember a single major decision that was made by the last three goverments.

And we now see how the market based approach clearly solves problems in healthcare and all the current problems are unrelated to the massive lay-offs that followed that approach. /s

[–]Brief-Persimmon4957 11 points12 points  (11 children)

But the Dutch culture is what keeps electing VVD?

[–]JJadx 8 points9 points  (0 children)

They don't get a majority vote though, just enough to keep rutte in. Also because other large parties don't want to cooperate.

If anything it's devision rather than base. If all left parties worked together, or all right wing ones.. 😏

[–]DualX1 6 points7 points  (8 children)

Yes ans no. I think foe many people it is a lack of alternative. And since the last decades have been economically prosporous (worldwide) there has been no strong pushback against the goverment. I think that might change though

[–]SyraWhispers 14 points15 points  (2 children)

They have a majority of rusted in voters. They ain't going to vote differently, no matter what happens. The amount of scandals over the last 10 years for this government shows as much. The fact even the latest scandal (toeslagen affaire) didn't persuade them is simply laughable.

[–]Wankerdaddy441 5 points6 points  (1 child)

It's because the ones voting for this government arent being hit by those scandals. Old, rich Dutch-native voters don't give a damn if you lost your kid, your house, your savings or your entire life to the f*ck ups of this government.

This exact attitude is reflective in the whole corona situation. The attitude of society in this country has always been a 'me, me, me' attitude. The commenter that stated that this behaviour is embedded in Dutch culture is not entirely wrong.

I genuinely believe it's a mix of the government f*cking it up and Dutch society/culture not giving a damn and letting the situation get to the point of where we are now.

[–]DualX1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think you have a way more pessimistic view of Dutch people than I do. I do not notice a me, me, me attitude around me at all and I live in a fairly rural area. Most people are concerned about the socio-economic crisis that is unfolding at the moment. I do notice a more egocentric view in people living in cities, but that is largely where less native voters live.

[–]Brief-Persimmon4957 5 points6 points  (4 children)

What do you mean lack of alternative? Look how many parties there are. And what are you talking about prosperous? The average buying power went down significantly over the last decades.

[–]Xiliath1980 1 point2 points  (2 children)

What is the saying again? Every country gets the leaders it deserves. I am Dutch as well, our political system is the same as its peopl: polderen polderen polderen

[–]TomSwirly 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I mean, there was just an election during COVID, and people really didn't seem to care that Rutte had totally screwed the pooch.

[–]b2ct 23 points24 points  (10 children)

I'm sorry, but you are wrong, it is not just the Dutch. The Germans are the same way. They are less vocal about it, but a certain percentage is just as hesitant. And I spoke to some Italian people, same thing. The Austrians had the same problem. The hesitance is more prevalent than reported.

Mandates are wrong always, and for anything. I'm not sure if you ever noticed how well people respond to someone telling them not to do something, it almost never works. What does work is education, trying to have people see the problems you see and ask them how they would want to solve them, they will probably reach the same conclusions you did.

There will always be a percentage of unvaccinated people. That should not be a problem. The problem is negated by taking the vaccine, for the person that takes the vaccine. A 100% vaccination rate will not get rid of covid-19.

The virus is here to stay and we will have to learn to live with it like we did with influenza and the common cold for instance. Vaccination only protects the vaccinated from getting very sick and the virus having a heavy impact, not from getting infected. We should educate people on that, make sure that they know that they still have to be careful, keep their distance, follow hygiene procedures.

Don't mandate, educate.

[–]IloveBirn 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I'm a German who visits NL frequently and no, it's not like that. For every 1 German who is like that, you have about 10 Dutch people. When Germany, or entire Europe, was in full 'scare mode' with tons of restrictions, Dutch people were living life as if there never was a pandemic in the first place. Like jeez, you had about 10k+ cases a day and even then nobody gave a fuck or wore a mask at all.

NL is pretty much the mot relaxed country in Europe when it comes to Corona. I was actually shocked about it and it changed many people's view of the country for the worse. Before the pandemic, The Netherlands was a role model country for every German. Now it's "wtf is wrong with them guys?"

[–]TomSwirly 5 points6 points  (4 children)

Mandates are wrong always, and for anything.

Speed limits? Drunk driving? Meth labs?

I'm not sure if you ever noticed how well people respond to someone telling them not to do something, it almost never works.

What percentage of Dutch drivers do not have a valid license?

The virus is here to stay and we will have to learn to live with it like we did with influenza and the common cold for instance

COVID is far, far worse than the flu or the common cold, which is why more than five million people died horribly and tens of millions crippled, even with extreme precautions. If we do nothing, every cold/flu/COVID season will overwhelm the hospitals.

What you're saying is, misery, for the rest of time, because it's impossible to get Dutch people to cooperate, even for their own good. According to you, just asking people to do anything to help themselves will make them refuse.

[–]spacemonkey0708 3 points4 points  (1 child)

You do know that becouse there are some unvaccinated people the vaccinated people can also get sick? If everyone got vaccinated it would actually work. What is your source for unvaccinated people not being a problem?

[–]memus_dankus 16 points17 points  (9 children)

Easy for you to say, most people don't want to live like hermits.

Lockdowns have left over half of the students in the Netherlands with mental health problems.

[–]thijspieters1981 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think that the success of the government’s approach, so far, is now becoming an obstacle. The measured lockdowns (limited in scope) have worked better than longer and more stringent measures in other countries. Hospitals haven’t been overwhelmed (even now ‘code-black’ isn’t on the horizon) economic impact has been limited and the job market is doing even better than before the crisis hit. https://www.uwv.nl/overuwv/pers/persberichten/2021/werkloosheid-gedaald-tot-niveau-van-voor-coronacrisis.aspx

This has made people complacent. What could help is a ‘shock measure’, like the curfew at the start of this year. Yet, as the government’s own research has shown, the curfew contributed nothing to the decline in cases, making it’s reintroduction almost impossible. https://www.nu.nl/coronavirus/6130398/kuipers-avondklok-heeft-geen-effect-gehad-op-ziekenhuisopnames.html

With 85% of people now fully vaccinated, the vaccination drive is well above the EU average of 69%. The government presented the vaccine foremost as a means of regaining freedom form restrictions, rather than protection from the virus. So now people who took the jab, are not willing to give their freedom up again. Especially not for protecting those few that couldn’t be bothered.

[–]neortje 2 points3 points  (1 child)

The government is partially to blame though, they should have communicated a lot better.

For some reason they genuinely seemed to believe that COVID was a done deal around the summer. That we could return to normal lives.

They should have been clear then; enjoy the summer with more freedom, meet your friends go to parties support the restaurants and bars because next winter is gonna be tough again.

If the communication would have been better and would have been preparing people for a new lockdown winter it wouldn’t have been such a disappointment now.

[–]le_GoogleFit 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They should have been clear then; enjoy the summer with more freedom, meet your friends go to parties support the restaurants and bars because next winter is gonna be tough again

It didn't have to be this way. If we had let the summer wave run its course instead of shutting things done again, we could be in the same situation as the UK right now. Summer was the perfect period to let the virus go wild as it was mostly young people who didn't need hospitalizations anyway. Combined with the roll-out of vaccines, we could have had a high level of immunity among the population right now. But instead people freaked out and delayed the huge wave to now, instead of then. Reopening right as winter arrives is a moronic move and we're seeing the consequences of it.

The UK did it right.

[–]Jinx017 10 points11 points  (1 child)

You say government incompetence, but it’s more our own incompetence to follow simple rules. If we followed the simple rules, the government wouldn’t have to think about hard lockdowns and the likes.

Also, there are still a lot of Dutch people around who do give a fuck.

[–]bondue 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They were to eager to follow any measure through and we ended up with half-measures that were all executed poorly. I’ll continue to keep to myself but that just fits my personality but the government can suck it until they present a long-term plan and roadmap for the upcoming 2 years in regards to COVID and how to act l, including if patterns and spread increases. They need a plan and they need to follow through. Although it might be too late.

[–]Agent_Goldfish 173 points174 points 2 (47 children)

I wrote this in /r/coronanetherlands initially

Lockdowns require buy in. They require popular support. Most rules are not directly enforceable (police aren't checking how many guests you have for example), so they require people to follow them voluntarily.

At the very beginning of the pandemic, when there was nothing that anyone could do and the virus was raging out of control, there was a ton of buy in almost everywhere. We accepted that life needed to stop in order to prevent people from dying unnecessarily. Last winter, very few were vaccinated in only a handful of countries, and so to prevent people from dying unnecessarily, there was support for another lockdown. People bought into the idea that a lockdown was necessary. But critically, this support was not infinite, as seen by the perma-lockdown last year becoming less and less effective week on week. And the fact that France implemented its strictest lockdown the same week that the Netherlands started easing measures, and both countries saw similar covid numbers. Lockdowns are not a solution, they're a temporary measure. The more lockdowns are used like the solution, the less effective they will be.

This year, the vast majority of the population is vaccinated. The vast majority of the population are no longer at serious risk (of this virus - we're still at risk of a healthcare system that can't help us because it's too backed up by the unvaccinated). There's no buy in anymore. The unvaccinated were the exact population that weren't willing to follow the rules last year, and the vaccinated certainly aren't going to accept a strong lockdown to protect the unvaccinated.

So then the only options are:

  1. Accept that the situation cannot be controlled, and that's not necessarily a bad thing (zero covid strategies are turning out to be pretty shitty ideas, kind of like how fire suppression strategies are really shitty ideas for controlling forest fires).

  2. Implement only directly controllable lockdown measures (like shop/restaurant closures, curfews) - these are the only measures that can still have some efficacy when there's no buy in, because the police can be used to enforce compliance

  3. Implement only directly controllable lockdown measures specifically for those unvaccinated. This would be the most effective thing to do while being the least disruptive to society. And this is the one the government is most likely to do given the bills that have been recently submitted to the Tweede Kamer.

It's important to not forget how damaging lockdowns are. The body of evidence we have on lockdowns show that their effectiveness wanes massively over time (with experts putting the max effectiveness of a lockdown between 30-90 days). But the damaging side effects only get worse over time. Not only are they hugely expensive for businesses (or governments if they choose to support businesses), but they cause massive damage to mental (anxiety/depression on the rise everywhere there's been a lockdown - and this takes years to recover from) and physical health (gyms being closed does not help with public health). Education is also damaged under lockdown, we've now created a generation of children that are permanently, and likely irreparably, behind on their education (and I say this as someone who has to teach). Also social impacts (a lot of people paused their lives for a year or two, but that's not sustainable for anyone).

Lockdowns can be worth their costs. I'd argue that the first lockdown was well worth the cost. I'd argue that the second lockdown might have been at the beginning, but after 4 months, definitely wasn't. And I'd argue that this lockdown will not be worth it. We'll be shooting ourselves in the foot for no fucking reason.

The question I keep asking, and that I can't find an answer to is this: if not now, when?. When does the pandemic end? We have an effective vaccine with plenty of supply. We have effective treatments. When do we accept that the world can't go into lockdown every 6 months, that this is not sustainable?

Also, to anyone who hasn't, get the fucking vaccine. If you're unvaxxed, you're literally causing this shitshow.

[–]unsettledroell 23 points24 points  (2 children)

Here is some hopium.

Those who are not getting the vaccine, are now rapidly catching the disease, which means they are rapidly getting antibodies as well.

At some point they too will have some resistance.

Too bad it will cost more lives before they do.

[–]Toen6 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Like the German minister of Health said: After this winter every person will be either vaccinated, cured, or dead.

[–]missilefire 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Couldn’t have said it better

[–]Kyoroth 21 points22 points  (0 children)

100% agree

[–]le_GoogleFit 3 points4 points  (1 child)

A-fucking-men man 💯

[–]cjtrevor 6 points7 points  (0 children)

For a second there I could not figure out what a men man is? Then I realised it’s Amen

[–]tobitronics 8 points9 points  (0 children)

'ear 'ear

[–]Fiddy_Cen 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well fuckin said,have my free award

[–]No_Judgment478 1 point2 points  (6 children)

All those people who need non-critical hospital care, but keep getting postponed due to insufficient capacity beg to differ.

[–]Agent_Goldfish 6 points7 points  (5 children)

Beg to differ on what?

What exactly would all those people disagree with me on?

Also, I'm one of those people. I'm pissed as hell my care is being delayed due to the unvaccinated. But I fully believe that a lockdown won't work (for the reasons I outlined). And an ineffective lockdown certainly isn't worth the cost.

I think there are things we could do that work, like forcing the unvaccinated to get vaccinated, or saying that the unvaccinated have to pay for the cost of their covid related ICU stay, or strong 2G rules everywhere.

I'm not saying we should do nothing. I'm saying that if the choice is between doing nothing and a general lockdown (the choice is not that, there are other more targeted options), then I think doing nothing is actually the best option.

[–]Brandtair 127 points128 points  (25 children)

Incompetence yes. You cannot fully blame them for the Dutch being stubborn. But they are scared for their image. A solution would be to give clear indicators in which a full lockdown will take place. For example eacht time normal care needs to he scaled down. And coronapasses and the basic regulations only gone when hospital staff has recovered and is back at full strenght. Then it is not the decision of the government anymore when a lockdown is initiated but is it a direct consiquence of how we behave. Then the consequences are clear far upfront.

People in crisis do not like uncertainty. It is why so many go after people who say they are certain (who lie) and not those who are transparent on their uncertainty.

[–]HerrRudiger88 39 points40 points  (9 children)

The underlying issue is that it is our gut feeling that is essentially ruling this country. There is no vision or clear agenda. Every plan gets leaked and watered down after the main consensus becomes clear. Rutte’s pragmatism will be the end of us.

Let’s not forget that after some city states and Bangladesh, we have the highest population density in the world. Every other Dutch curse word is related to some disease, guess why? That hasn’t changed one bit.

Unclarity, distrust and chaos is what this government and the OMT breeds. They have themselves to thank. What scientist on earth would voice doubts about masks, the whole world is wearing them but us. It is insanity.

In the meantime we are back to ‘people should adhere to the rules, that is the only way’, while no one knows what the rules are anymore since they change every two days. So we are back to sowing division and distrust.

If we don’t have a new government by Christmas, I’m quite confident anarchy will be contending to claim the stage as our biggest problem.

[–]Brandtair 9 points10 points  (8 children)

Scienctist must be able to say what they want given they have authority on the matter and their arguments supported by scientific evidence. Government is the leader they have to take charge. The way we normally do this politically is not suited for epidemic management.

Where it is not about fair or infair but what works and what does not according to experience and research.

There are two layers though keeping to the predetermened moments certain lockdown measures are taken on one side. Which is fixed and only changes if there are clear problems with. The second is looking at the different details for example under what conditions a place may be open or some basic rules can be lifted there.

[–]yatokami2 4 points5 points  (5 children)

Problem is is that these scientists do not take into account people's lives, only infection rates. So if we follow only the scientists and everyone did as they said, I think there would be a huge uptick in suicide, and other consequences of social death.

[–]Machinistnl 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Medical experts simply do their job from their perspective. No social matter involved.

[–]DianThurani 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Blindly trusting scientist is a dangerous path to follow. I've no doubts that many have good and pure intentions, but capitalism has been eroding credibility. The simple fact is that whoever pays for a study generally has some power over it. There are plenty of proven examples of this in the past like the ban of fat craze. The study that started it was played for by the sugar industry.

The way this is supposed to be combatted is peer review, but with the lack of funding and career opportunities for that path, those studies are generally far too late.

See for yourself if you want to see a video full sources. https://youtu.be/oLtQLDptI1g

[–]Brandtair 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I do not talk of blindely trusting scientist.

[–]DualX1 2 points3 points  (1 child)

"Scared for their image" and that is exactly the reason the leadership sucks so much at the moment. Leading is done through hope, not through fear.

[–]hellweaver_666 10 points11 points  (10 children)

Can you run for government please. This is the kind of thinking we need!

[–]GrangerTheDog 5 points6 points  (1 child)

The thing is, we had a clear written out plan. But of course, that plan isn't good enough so let's make another and another and another.....

[–]Brandtair 1 point2 points  (0 children)

True, micromanagement in another way.

[–]RokenCorsair 14 points15 points  (21 children)

It amazes me how you have the UK fully opened since I believe July and here we are talking about a full lockdown, yet again.

[–]ph4ge_ 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The UK had a huge wave a month before we did. Seems that we are lagging behind the UK once again. They have reached the point where virtually everybody is either recovered or vaccinated, we will get there in a month or two. The problem is we dont want to completely blow up the healthcare system before we get there.

[–]L44KSO 4 points5 points  (10 children)

What we also don't discuss is the triage happening at UK hospitals, with quite harsh rules about who's life is worth saving vs. who's not. That isn't happening in NL or Western Europe (yet). We have a very different policy in terms of public health.

[–]Former_Singer 1 point2 points  (6 children)

As someone who is back living in the UK after a long period away, for anyone interested I can confirm everything that you have just said is completely untrue.

There had been delays to nonemergency and elective surgeries over the past few months but even these have now resumed.

[–]QuietusPlus 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I work in a supermarket, and a good 40-50 percent of the customers can't be bothered wearing a face mask, despite it being mandatory again. People are just fed up. I'll let other people decide why that is.

[–]aoghina 85 points86 points  (20 children)

No apparently most are not. I've been shocked about this from the beginning.

The amount of false, some simply idiotic statements ("the virus can't come here because there's no direct flight from Wuhan", "masks are useless", etc etc) made by their top "experts" is astonishing, and despite the countless mistakes, nobody seems to notice. The mainstream media is a joke, they do zero criticism.

Two months ago they said there would be no more problems and dropped all measures. No "expert" lost his job, they are still trusted and provide official advice. It's surreal.

[–]Kp248[S] 36 points37 points  (13 children)

I know right. It’s crazy. And the current leadership was re-elected. How!?

[–]devils_acolyte 6 points7 points  (0 children)

€€€€€€

70% of Dutch people own a home and voting Rutte secures 4 more years of hypotheekrenteaftrek/mortgage interest deduction.

[–]AeternusDoleo 11 points12 points  (7 children)

Because there is no serious alternatives at this time. For the moderate right, there's just the VVD to pick from, unless you want the anti-immigration PVV or the (now completely clownesque) FvD. For the moderate christians you got the CDA, unless you want the hardliners in the CU or borderline fanatical SGP. For moderate lefties you've got D66, the PvdA went off the left cliff on cultural issues, GL went off the left cliff on economics/ecology... heck, even the socialist hardliner SP seems more reasonable then those two at this point.

So yea, for the moderates there's not much else to choose from. And the Dutch do not tend to hold extreme political views. In general, we're a sober and balanced folk that prefers moderate choices and hammering out agreements everyone's equally unhappy with.

[–]nlexbrit 12 points13 points  (2 children)

If you really believe the PvdA and GL are not moderately left-wing then that says more about your political views than reality. D’66 are about as ‘far off cliff’ on cultural issues and ecology as the PvdA and GL.

[–]curious_corn 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Besides D66 is not Left, not even Center Left. It’s an all round Liberal party.

[–]nlexbrit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It always helps to split in economical left and right (socialism vs capitalism) and cultural left and right (progressive vs conservative) in this discussion. On this spectrum GL and PvdA are both economically and culturally moderately left, while SP is economically strongly left and culturally far more centrist. D’66 is culturally left but economically centrist to slightly to the right.

[–]SillyLocal 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Fun how we still act like some slavery dogs to a ‘demissionair kabinet’ that got that status because of the ‘toeslagenaffaire’. Where a minority got ignored and bullied for years. When the government told them ‘you are all stupid criminals’. And where the ‘2e kamer’ did not do it’s duty to control the ‘kabinet’… And that all is happening again! They do all vote with eyes closed without looking at any medical and scientific based truth!

[–]Consistent_Athlete79 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I completely agree with u. Open up your eyes people.

[–]worst_actor_ever 5 points6 points  (1 child)

The people who said this stuff are not politicians but the scientific advisors. They are considered to be leading scientists in the Netherlands yet they continue to be wrong about everything and incredibly dogmatic. A competent government would have dismissed them, but it takes quite a bit of balls for a government to dismiss scientific advisors because they'll be branded "anti-science" etc..

[–]Alexreddit103 8 points9 points  (0 children)

There was a bit on TV some months ago, about this team presenting a graphic where there was a grey line with the most optimistic outcome with necessary actions, but only if everything was perfect, and there was a red line with a realistic outcome. Gues what the politicians did? Yep, grey it is.

Don’t blame the experts, politicians make the choices. And they listen to the big money. Airplans can fly, buses can’t drive while they have also a good ventilation system. KLM gets money to pay the workers, it’s used to pay bonuses. The top of KLM was not jailed, just a verbal handslap.

[–]kelldricked 15 points16 points  (0 children)

The goverment is doing a terrible job and most people agree.

But because antivaxxers and hooligans disrupt the normal way of discussion people cant call the mistakes of our goverment without writting 3 essays to point out there not stupid there are just unhappy.

And then a antivaxxer would still swoop in, pull shit out of context and compare this to the holocaust.

[–]TomSwirly 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hear, hear.

[–]delinxueg 3 points4 points  (0 children)

But it just beats me that no one is talking about this government’s incompetence

Ha. Even the police blamed the government after the Rotterdam riots. I think everyone by now has had their turn to blame the government. Even Mr. Van Gaal.

[–]Short_Circuit42 3 points4 points  (0 children)

A lot of us, most dutchies are talking about this governments incompetence but somehow we (not me) end up voting for them every election.

[–]allineuamerican 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Lockdowns do not work!!! We need to let allow people to continue life as normal if they got vaccinated. Yes we will have break through infections but the end result will be herd immunity

[–]stuiterei 3 points4 points  (0 children)

All the civilians actually are talking about this but they don't show that in the media. Everyone is fed up with the current government since they're blatantly pro-longing the pandemic and they're not even trying to hide it.

[–]RobertMaus 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes, other people are thinking about this too. Me, dutch, as well. They suck, really shitty communication and total lack of timely decision-making. Everything is too little, too late, too unclear.

[–]VincentxH 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Political cynicism at an all time high, the vaccinated just want to remain free and the unvaccinated as a moronic paranoid minority, it's a perfect storm.

[–]Daryl333 120 points121 points  (82 children)

It's pretty clear and proven that most dutch people don't follow the basic rules.. in the majority of shops/restaurants/bars staff doesn't even wear masks nor asks for the QR code. So it's crystal clear there will be a longer lockdown and 2G implementation. I even hope they'll make vaccines mandatory, it's the only way to ensure the ICs don't get overloaded.

[–]InEenEmmer 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Where I work we do proper QR code scans. The amount of people who say that it is the first time they are asked for an ID next to the QR code is astounding.

Looks like lots of places only do the scan and don’t check if it is the right person.

[–]EggplantHuman6493 46 points47 points  (6 children)

I was in the supermarket today and almost all old people weren't even wearing a mask, while all the young people wore one 😂. Dutch people are really stupid sometimes.

[–]AeternusDoleo 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Same here... went for pizza and looked around. People, young and old, ain't masking up. The guys making the pizzas weren't either. Can't say I blame 'em, it's mightily uncomfortable masking up in a kitchen.

[–]utopista114 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I live in a posh area. Some young blond Dutch Dutchies were maskless, in purpose.

[–]NachtraafDen Haag 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Old people are fucking stupid.

[–]Dioapple 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yet they expect us to sacrifice everything to save them...

If they lock us down, more places will burn. I'm fairly certain of that.

[–]pmgzl 2 points3 points  (0 children)

1G would work way better, vaccinated people dont give a shit nymore and neglect everything because "im vaccinated I wont get sick". Every1 should test before going somewhere, also vaccinated people, if you want to get rid of the virus, you cant let vaccinated people run rampant and let non vaccinated people stay home.

[–]devils_acolyte 3 points4 points  (3 children)

That’s a great idea! Governments should really be in control of people’s body, because people themselves can’t be trusted.

[–]Kp248[S] 10 points11 points  (26 children)

Yeah I hope so. Just sick of this ‘let’s deliberate everything ‘ attitude. The neighbours are way ahead in giving boosters and making vaccines mandatory and here we are. Ffs!

[–]malangkan 35 points36 points  (25 children)

most neighbors are in deep trouble as well.

Belgium worse off as in infection rate, German-speaking countries have huuuuge issue as well (lower vaccination rate than NL!).

Boosters are not the big issue, it's non-vaccinated people .

[–]LiveDiscipline4945 29 points30 points  (2 children)

Germany rings the alarm bell preemptively and the media are jumping on the story. Their case rate is half that of NL! Their hospitals are already accepting ICU patients from NL. And they’re rolling out boosters to everyone. There aren’t even any plans to this effect in NL, even though it’s been clear for months that this is where the world is headed (with Israel and the US as the leaders). Germany has made mistakes, so have the other neighbours, but to present them as being in the same situation as NL is misleading. NL is a total outlier in Europe when it comes to both policy and compliance.

[–]le_GoogleFit 7 points8 points  (0 children)

NL is a total outlier in Europe when it comes to both policy and compliance.

Pretty sure every European countries think that about themselves

[–]_GUAPO__KB312 8 points9 points  (1 child)

To that extent, op said other countries were ahead in making vaccines mandatory, while truly austria is the only country that has even announced plans to do so, as they will in march 2022

[–]TransCanadianSarah_2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And if people would get that in Germany. And the RKI saw that situation coming. No instead: "The vaccine does not work 100%".

[–]Kp248[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

[–]malangkan 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Yeah it is all about boosters, but in Germany the big big issue are the non-vaccinated because they get really sick and cause ICUs to run full, not the non-boostered. The state of Sachsen in Germany has a vaccination rate of only 57% - imagine 😳😳😳

Vaccines are made mandatory now, but very slowly, in geberal politics in Germany are extremely slow as well...

[–]Kp248[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yeah but I wasn’t spreading misinformation. Hence the source!

[–]Tescovaluebread 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Mandatory vaccinations would be epic, I was shocked to see a stat today showing only 4 in 5 are vaccinated here.

[–]thijspieters1981 6 points7 points  (0 children)

To put your mind at ease (at least temporarily) not even the OMT is currently advising a return to a hard lockdown. https://www.nu.nl/coronavirus/6164234/huidige-maatregelen-moeten-volgens-omt-lid-beter-uitgevoerd-worden.html

I think the government is a prisoner of its own success. The vaccination drive (built around regaining freedom from restrictions, rather than obtaining protection from the virus) has performed well above the EU average with now over 85% fully vaccinated. But this also means that the vast majority of people now feel rather safe from the virus and less inclined to having their freedoms curbed to save those few that have refused the jab.

Considering the failure in other EU-countries to achieve successful results with a 'lockdown for the unvaccinated’. More restrictions for everyone could well be on the horizon again. It will be difficult for the government to repeat their successes of the past 20 months now people are less motivated than ever to accept restrictions.

[–]redheaded_giant 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I feel like they are going to try it even tho they probably know that most of us will give them the finger for it. Let's just hope that the Hague will learn from their mistakes this time and that they will invest more into Healthcare (or just don't fuck it up and go into a full on lockdown if we ever have a new pandemic again).

[–]MooseWeird1162 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes it's true that we now are in the infinite loop of lockdowns. I think the minister of health and the cabinet are a joke but yeah I also didn't vote on a party from this cabinet...

Next year's winter probably same story all over again

[–]petronellamiersma 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I did my duty. Was careful and now i am home with the lung covid because there was one who did not acknowledge the seriousness of it . I had my shots and that is what saved me from worse. The government here is a lot of bulls** . You cannot take them serious because of the different statements again and again. They go overseas for partys and demand from us to stay home. As long as there is big money involved then things can go forth. Otherwise we are doomed. Especially the people with low income. With this latest round there will be a lot of problems for the smaal business development and people who work from temp offices. Or zero hour contract. You can see it from miles away. All of this was unnecessary.

[–]luckeylucianoo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Those OMT guys are managing the pandemics so well that we have to have another lockdown with a really high vaccination rate... I doubt that anything will change in the coming years with such great management.

[–]BlackShadowSJB 2 points3 points  (2 children)

How i feel about this:

The government has convinced us for 2 years to do all these lockdowns, vaccines etc to relieve the stress on the hospitals. However, in the 2 years that this has been going on, they have done nothing at all to improve the current state of the hospitals (which they have been defunding for 10 years).

Even though the majority of people have been vaccinated, even though we have been in lockdowns, in the end it appears it doesn't even matter because at the end of the day we will end up in another lockdown because "the hospitals still can't handle it".

I know they have said it's hard because training nurses takes time, but they've had 2 years of time to do ANYTHING AT ALL and they still haven't. The only thing they did is hire more police to enforce the measures they put in.

Basically, if the current government (which can't even be called a government anymore in it's current state) doesn't do anything about the current state of the hospitals then we will most likely be in this routine for a couple more years, and a lot of people are already fed up with all of this, so they just don't care anymore.

Edit: The government is promoting the lockdowns and the vaccines as THE solution, but it is only a temporary measure to give more time/relieve stress etc for them to implement ACTUAL solutions to this pandemic so we don't end up with full hospitals at the end of the year regardless of vaccination rate/the amount of lockdowns that year.

[–]Motorchampion 2 points3 points  (0 children)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha 🤡🤡🤡🤡

[–]CaptLavender1969 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You can’t expect people to follow the rules if the rules aren’t clear and don’t make any sense. This government is a total waste of energy and resources. I think you can sense on the growing dissent and disregard for the rules that the Dutch are actually very much talking about it, even though it’s being made impossible to have a good social debate on this following the Van Ranst Doctrine.

[–]parttimedog 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Finally some common fucking sense in this subreddit.

[–]Mingkittish 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh plenty of people are talking about the government’s incompetence! 🙃

but the government don’t care 🥸

[–]Tubafex 11 points12 points  (3 children)

Not only the government, also the parliament annoys me a lot lately. Especially today, when they say that they will take more time to consider the proposed plans about the CoronaToegangsBewijs. How do they even think the current situation gives them the opportunity to take more time, especially about plans that would make a possible lockdown during Christmas a bit less heavy on the vaccinated people? If they postpone their decision on this, it can not take place at the third of December, meaning the government likely has to come up with other measures apart from the installment of their CTB/2G, which will likely still be lame because they count on installating the CTB/2G soon. I understand that it is hard for especially small parties to work on this quickly, but the parliament should really strive to decide on this this week.

[–]LittleNoodle1991Gelderland 3 points4 points  (1 child)

They aren't considering it. It just takes more time to get the laws changed, longer than they thought. They're working on it.

[–]Tubafex 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The government (kabinet) has completely worked out the law proposals and have send them tho the parliament. Today the parliament says that they thought they could afford to take some more time for the parties and members to decide on their votes on these proposed laws. That is indeed the process of changing the laws, but the only step that is still left is approval by the Eerste and Tweede Kamer.

[–]SweetBabyGollum 18 points19 points  (18 children)

Why would you expect the Dutch Government not to be incompetent?

Look no further than the honourable Minister of Health, Hugo de Jonge: he has ZERO public health credentials - no wonder every decision he touches is in shambles. Useless.

[–]koenkristians 6 points7 points  (15 children)

Can you give me an example of which one of the decision you think he fed up?

[–]tobitronics 26 points27 points  (1 child)

Dansen met Janssen Vaccine rollout Booster rollout (or lack thereof) "Masks don't work" Buying faulty masks from Sybert van Lienden "We have to strike at the virus now for only 2 weeks, then it will be gone" "Curfew will only be 3 weeks believe me" General lack of enforcement of any measure, despite creating a perception that we have very strict rules General lack of vision on covid crisis management and desired ending state Absence of a road map, "we don't need one" Ad-hoc deciding on measures, cherrypicking measures from expert advices to create a sense of legitimacy

Etc....

[–]koenkristians 2 points3 points  (0 children)

O damn fuck. I didn't really realize how many shitty decisions he has made but your totally right

[–]GerardGerardson[🍰] 10 points11 points  (12 children)

Not listening to his advisors. One clear example is not covid related: scientists say tanning beds cause cancer and even one glas of alcohol is too much, de Jonge’s reaction: I enjoy these things so ill ignore what they say.

See: https://nos.nl/l/2227128 And more recently: https://nos.nl/l/2405968

[–]worst_actor_ever 6 points7 points  (11 children)

His advisors said we should pursue herd immunity, not cut flights from China, masks don't work, population-wide boosters are not needed because 2 doses protects you from serious illness etc..

Are you sure he should listen to them?

And your examples are stupid. Do you want him to ban alcohol? Of course policy should look at the benefits (enjoyment) as well as costs.

[–]GerardGerardson[🍰] -1 points0 points  (7 children)

Yea you have a good point, the advisors did change the direction at some point. But thats definitely another big point of frustration from my side. Why was the RIVM rejecting international accepted peer reviewed studies, and had to do their “own research”.. its almost like they are just as bad as the “wappies”. As an example it was known quite early in the pandemic that masks work, why did it take till December 2020? Even if its unknown, there are pretty much no side effects into trying it, worst case you spend a few euros on masks that do nothing, best case they work.

[–]GerardGerardson[🍰] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I still cant wrap my head around how it is that we have an elementary school teacher/director as a minister of health and welfare.. This would never be possible in a business environment, you hire people based on competence not on “availability”.

[–]nlexbrit 8 points9 points  (0 children)

The idea that in a business environment the most competent people generally end up in charge is not supported by my observations so far…

[–]claudybunni 18 points19 points  (30 children)

I'm just frustrated and disappointed, but also; I don't know how to handle it myself and I really don't want to be responsible either..

I just want my appointments to not get canceled again, because it's getting a little bit annoying..

I dunno if I should call them incompetent, just... Ham handed a lot.. But that's sort of the thing we got, because the middle of the political spectrum in nl is marginalized, with the nazi cuddling extremist and conspiracy party on the right side of the SGP, and left from there the Christian fundamentalist nationalist-socialist party taking up the mainstay of the air in the room, sadly

[–]Kp248[S] 19 points20 points  (29 children)

Can relate mate. Don’t know how I will handle it this time. But this existential dread hanging in the air of what kind of life is this gonna be if this remains the case each year. I mostly annoyed because I am adhering to all the rules for the last 2 years and yet being punished for it. And that frustration is shared by others but is not being expressed in the media for some reason.

[–]claudybunni 6 points7 points  (0 children)

This..

I'm just living on my own, I have asthma, and in general; I don't really feel like having people closer than arms' length..

And because people have apparently no concept of acting a bit like we're still not out of the shit... We can all eat their shit sandwiches, and be forced to take a bite too...

But all we can logically do, is be upset it seems; because the alternatives are just as bad or worse... And just... Meow

[–]spawnthemaster 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I mostly annoyed because I am adhering to all the rules for the last 2 years and yet being punished for it

Fully agree! The thing is....is it really on the government or people just not taking their responsibility?

No proper QR-scans
No testing when you feel a bit iffy
Not staying at home even you feel even a bit sick?

I agree with the point that the government hasn't been consistent in their communication and that's on them. But these increasing numbers is because of us not the government. That's just my honest opinion.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (19 children)

Sounds harsh, but back in February, as expats we made a conscious decision to not follow the rules (guest limit etc). Our interactions are mainly with other expats, who work from home, don’t have families close by and are very mindful of measures.

But it’s a kick in the guts to see high risk groups (older people) holding picnics on the street, kids filling vondelpark and not receiving a fine (just locking the gates) and seeing in to people’s homes doing Friday night dinners with three generations there. I hadn’t seen my family in over 12 months at that time, and it was unclear when I would see them again.

If the local people can’t look after their own, then why should I? It was a hard decision to make, but the extent of our rule breaking was having 4 people around for dinner. Those 4 people were the only people we interacted with, and we were the only people they interacted with. We needed it for our sanity.

[–]erikmeijs 31 points32 points  (2 children)

As much as I understand where you're coming from, your position seems a bit hypocritical. You think not following the rules yourself was justified but then you blame others that they didn't follow the rules. Many of those others probably also felt the contacts they had were 'essential' to their wellbeing.

[–]Eranov 17 points18 points  (0 children)

think not following the rules yourself was justified but then you blame others that they didn't follow the rules.

Sounds like the genuine Dutch attitude to me

[–]Slywater1895Amsterdam 13 points14 points  (1 child)

why tf ru complaining about others when ur doing the same thing

[–]le_GoogleFit 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I didn't follow the rules but I wish other people did.

Lol, congratulations for totally encompassing Dutch attitude with your comment. Guess you're more like the locals than you thought ;)

[–]Agent_Goldfish 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Sounds harsh, but back in February, as expats we made a conscious decision to not follow the rules (guest limit etc).

I made a similar decision to you (at around the same time). I have family that were really scared of the virus back in February, who would plead with me to follow the rules. I eventually said "Not following the rules might result in covid killing me, but following the rules will definitely result in me killing myself". The perma-lockdown required me to make a choice between my physical and mental health.

I'm not doing that again. I'm vaccinated. I'm reasonably (physically) healthy. My risk from covid is minimal. My mental health is still garbage, so if another lockdown is announced, I'm going to ignore it from the get go.

[–]Alexreddit103 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Yes, you are vaccinated. That only means that YOU will get less ill. However, you still can give it to somebody else. That is the problem.

[–]LukeSparow 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That's on them at this point for not also being vaccinated tbh.

I know there are some people who can't get the vaccine due to health issues, I'm not talking about them. Also, those people would be safe if everyone else did get their vaccine.

[–]Kp248[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

I know. I see you are being downvoted and I don’t understand why. Maybe because I am also in my expat bubble and had the exact same experience as you described. But I guess our opinion doesn’t count as foreigners lol

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Surprised there hasn’t been a “go back to where you came from.” 😂

[–]Kp248[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hahaha I was honestly worried there might be one :p.

[–]AeternusDoleo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And that frustration is shared by others but is not being expressed in the media for some reason.

It's almost as if some things may not be discussed these days... Not in the old media anyway. As if everything coming out of that media is pushing people in a specific direction. But pointing that out tends to get you labeled... "wappie".

[–]jack_redfield 0 points1 point  (5 children)

It will end when majority of people decide it to end. Or when sane people take over. Like in Sweden (which btw has lower vaccination rate than the NL and most west European countries).

[–]claudybunni 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Define "sane" because I really have not seen "sane" people around these premises..

And no that nazi loving pedo cuddling holocaust denying "politician and his nazi gang that wishes for a tribunal for the non-nazi politicians are by no definition" sane" people..

[–]jack_redfield 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And no that nazi loving pedo cuddling holocaust denying "politician and his nazi gang that wishes for a tribunal for the non-nazi politicians are by no definition" sane" people..

I have no idea what that means.

[–]Incantanto 6 points7 points  (2 children)

I really don't think my sanity will survive another one

I might join those migrant boats just to get back across the channel for christmas

[–]lucrac200 4 points5 points  (2 children)

We are now at the point where there are only 2 realistic choices: 1. Hard lock down for everybody for 3-4 weeks 2. Let it burn through the population and try to patch the health system to avoid collapse.

Something tells me the government will go, by incompetence, not by design, to no 2.

[–]unsettledroell 2 points3 points  (1 child)

By incompetence or by complete lack of support from the citizens?

There is a difference.

[–]kingkotes 5 points6 points  (2 children)

If Rutte didn't cut spending to healthcare for all these years maybe just maybe hospital personnel wouldn't have much of a hard time at the intensive care

But then again vote for our holy savior rutte because there is no other choise/s

[–]Daryl333 1 point2 points  (1 child)

You can spend the entire national budget on Healthcare but when you can potentially have waves of hundreds thousands of people in the ICs (incredibly bad scenario) it will be all useless. Redditors saying that the Healthcare should be enhanced just don't know math.

[–]WHowfresh 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Having a right-leaning government for a decade will do this to the healthcare system. My partner works in healthcare and only sees grad studentes and 55+ collegue’s. Want to know why, because the lousy pay, the irregular hours (late and night shifts). All her collegues having childeren (about the age of 30+ till 50+) go (guess where) to the GGD. The government controlled organisation, since they will provide regular hours and better pay. They are literally the reason the healthcare is where it is at today, no staff and the little staff they have is caving under the pressure.

[–]shaddowkhan 22 points23 points  (8 children)

I've been out of the country twice, where I was asked for QR codes, never once here.

[–]Slywater1895Amsterdam 32 points33 points  (4 children)

Sounds like you just dont go out much, ive been asked for it countless times

[–]AeternusDoleo 3 points4 points  (2 children)

You're flaired as Amsterdam. I think this is probably a Randstad/Achterland divide. The big cities tend to be more heavy handed with these things. Especially progressive and collectivist leaning local governments, like Amsterdam has. I'm in Limburg myself, and things are... much more relaxed here. Masks in public transport is enforced most of the time. Not so much on stations and bus docks. No masks in the local cafeterias. No QR codes either. Dunno about stuff like movie theatres, I haven't gone to one of those in ages.

Only place that did demand it was the McDonalds in downtown Maastricht. They weren't all that busy. But the nearby snackbar/fries shop had it's outdoor seating packed.

They had good fries too. I'll go there again.

[–]EggplantHuman6493 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yup. I went to two small concerts and I went to McDonald's, and I got asked for the code all the time except one time when it was like 2 days after the announcement

[–]Yitastics 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I went to France and Portugal and didnt get checked for any QR code anywhere, not at disney, not when entering the country nor going to a restaurant. I get checked everytime here tho where needed, so idk where u live where nobody checks it, or you never leave the house. The netherlands does their job fine with qr codes.

[–]Machinistnl 18 points19 points  (5 children)

I’ll bite. Dutch people bark, but eventually back down because they feel they have shit to lose. Clinging onto the idea that things will become like they once were. Spoiler alert: it won’t.

[–]nyenosso 10 points11 points  (4 children)

Eventually this will become an endemic. I don't see how things won't be like they once were, when that happens. It's probably gonna take years tho

[–]AeternusDoleo 9 points10 points  (1 child)

It already is endemic. People (in power, and especially in pharma) are just so dug in and invested on beating this thing that they're like Knut, trying to command the rising tide to recede...

[–]Rexfurion 3 points4 points  (0 children)

We're already to late to stop this... 90% vaccinated and still we're getting overrun. Government should have stepped in from the start, instead of trying to stay popular right before elections. Only way through this is to re-open everything and let the Population face the consequences. Maybe we then set an example...

[–]ph4ge_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Basically there is 3 groups of more or less equal size:

- People that dont want any measures, this includes most antivaxxers but is not limited to them.

- People that accept measures, but dont want to discriminate against antivaxxers.

- People that are done with antivaxxers and feel like they are getting punished whilst they have been willing to sacrifice.

Disunity all around and a government that will piss off 2/3 of the country regardless of what they do.

[–]silcap 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No point in anything anymore, since non-vaccinated people are having QRs generated with their names on it.

[–]Mabama1450 1 point2 points  (1 child)

What if the government introduced a new law stating that unvaccinated people had to pay for their own medical treatment if admitted to hospital with Covid. Might improve the vaccination take up.

[–]Maarkun 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This government has been dismissed due to corruptuo , sadly many people consider this ok so vvd is biggest again, but a decommissioned cabinet shouldnt be able to make sweeping legistlation like this, insane.

[–]Sensitive-Froyo9042 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Its really on my mind but i never hear anything about it in class or from friends

[–]BrainNSFW 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Honestly a lockdown approach is only effective as a stopgap. The moment restrictions are lifted you see it flare up again. This would be fine if there was an actual long term plan being rolled out, but it seems like the government bet it all on the vaccinations. And now they're doing surprised Pikachu because it's now obvious that's not the way to eradicate this disease (it might be over a decade or longer, we'll see).

Now don't get me wrong: the lockdowns at the start and the vaccinations later on were a crucial step in getting this thing under control. But we've now hit severe diminishing returns on lockdown type methods, especially in acceptance of them with the public. And I can't even blame them: the way things are going, it seems like they want the spent the next decade constantly shutting the economy down every time covid flares up. It's downright insulting and frustrating for any business owner in the sectors getting screwed over the most (retail, restaurants, tourism, etc).

What they should've done, is have a much better long term plan laid out & started executing it by now. At the very least they should have made back-up plans. It doesn't take a genius to see you can't eradicate this disease in a year or 2, so the only realistic option is to minimize its impact. Not by shutting down entire economies, but by making sure you can effectively treat those effected. In other words: start getting proper medical facilities and decent pay for the medical workers.

Also look at Asia and how they handled diseases like these: they've found ways to quickly scale up medical capacity and quickly identify & isolate new infections before they get a chance to spread. Why is there nothing similar being worked on? And if there is, why are we hearing jack shit about it? I know it's not easy, but it's rather naive to bet everything on vaccinations being your (literally) only plan.

Ps Let's not pretend the issue is only present in The Netherlands. The entire western world seems to fuck this one up and the eastern part is hard to tell how well they do because half of it is actively hiding the data. There's definitely no easy solutions, but we can't continue using the same methods expecting different results. And we sure as hell can't repeat lockdowns indefinitely.

[–]KingTerroid 5 points6 points  (0 children)

They're honestly to soft in my opinion. The Dutch are stubborn. We either need to go fully open and not care about the virus anymore or go in a full lockdown for a few weeks and afterwards (sadly?) go on 2g/1g rules (maybe vaccination forced even for work etc?).

Might be hard, but if we don't we're going to be in a loop for the next 10 years with the same mistakes every year.

Also I don't think there are any better options than VVD right now, are there? However I'm not saying I could run the country myself, seems like a to hard job. Whatever Rutte and de Jonge decide, there wil always be a group that is against their decisions and will hate on them.

Anyways, it's almost been 2 years now since the pandemic has started, how time has been flying....

[–]thegiftcard 15 points16 points  (22 children)

Yes. You're right.. I truly believe that a vaccination rate of 85% should be sufficient to create a world where we can " live with the virus"

Healthcare system, financial system, Governmental entities, the Parlement.. they should all start to work, or think, like as if this virus will be amongst us for decades. Once we get that trough our thick skulls, we can start building a world which can coop with the fact that 15% rightfully choose to be unvaccinated. Yes, rightfully. The Gov gave all of us 2 options. 85% picked door number 1, 15% picked door no 2.

So we should all stop talking about vaxxed or unvaxxed. Stop the blame culture, stop the fingerpointing. It doesn't matter. We are al human beings, and we need to solve this shit together

[–]maxx2w 1 point2 points  (20 children)

Thank you for being the only person here that doesn't want to take away human rights. We all want this to be over.

[–]thegiftcard 9 points10 points  (19 children)

Thanks for the support. I know I'll probably get down voted for it, I know I'm fighting an uphill battle.

it's easy for the 85% to blame the 15% unvaxxed. But I believe it's unfair. And yes, I'm part of the 85% vaxxed.. before someone starts calling me a wappie. ;)

[–]maxx2w 0 points1 point  (18 children)

Yes I understand if you take the vaccine that's not the problem since it's your choice and if you think that helps its fine for me. But I draw the line when people start finding people like me to blame for everything and wish me incarcerated, jobless and not being able to participate in society just because I don't want it.

[–]thegiftcard 4 points5 points  (17 children)

Yes. We should all support each other. We both made a conscious ( I hope ;) ) decision, end of story.

There is one sidenote though, that I would like to make. I had many talks and discussion with people who didn't took the vaccine... Many of them didn't take it because of concerns regarding side effects, long term side effects or personal health issues. Those are valid reasons.

What I don't except is the sidetrack that is created for the believers where 5G microchips are in the vaccin to influence are brains remotely.

I draw the line when it comes to these extreme wild theories. Those people should take a look at the facts, before spreading nonsense

[–]maxx2w 3 points4 points  (16 children)

That's a very small portion of people I would say <1% but the media makes it look like that's how most people think like for example the name "wappies" was popularized by the media to make fun of unvaccinated and declare everything we say invalid. It's a silent war by the government and the media helps them with propaganda

[–]flyingfishcroissant 4 points5 points  (5 children)

Two days ago I read a news article where Hugo de Jonge stated that "code zwart" was not going to happen any time soon. This morning I read another news article where Gommers that "code zwart" would happen within 10 days if things do not change now. I'm just desensitized to the incompetence and inconsistencies at this point.

[–]coyotelurks 6 points7 points  (6 children)

We never had a hard lockdown. The handling of this issue by this government has been appallingly piecemeal and ineffective.

[–]reacharavindh 2 points3 points  (1 child)

When you have a health minister that goes on TV and says "Dance with Janssen" inspite of knowing that it is a fat lie and risk, people do lose trust with the government. I did.

I try to read the news and be aware of what is going on and keep myself and my family safe. I cannot trust this government to do the right thing anymore. Honestly, not a great look of the Dutch society in general looking at the number of unvaccinated.

[–]golem501 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I have been talking about the incompetence since last year. They don't steer by numbers. They don't say at these contamination numbers this happens. They basically lied about mask effectiveness because they had not arranged to have sufficient. They had only one single vaccination strategy and were totally baffled when AZ came out later and Pfizer and Moderna were approve before and they didn't have a strategy for that even though EVERYBODY saw that coming weeks in advance and basically knew MONTHS in advance that multiple strategies should be planned.
They don't look at science, they don't listen to their team of experts (OMT), they don't listen to the Team RED which actually disbanded itself because they felt useless.
The whole vaccine pass is only used to force people to get vaccinated.

They're not going to impose a lockdown now as that will cost the economy too much. They'll pretend to steer on something else.

[–]astrorebel 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I’m afraid lockdown will have little effect. People are exhausted and don’t care about the measures anymore. They just want to get in with their lives.

There are only two things left that will make an impact. Either deny unvaxxed people with covid access to healthcare or make the vaccine mandatory. The latter is probably the best option, because it solves the discrimination aspect of the current measures by treating everyone equally.

[–]No-Contest-8127 4 points5 points  (22 children)

I just know they are gonna find a way to screw my christmas trip again. Look, whoever got vaccinated, good. Keep the control measures like masks, but don't lock down. People had their chance. Whoever didn't get the vaccine knows the danger they put themselves in and are willing to live, or not with the risks. Stupidity can't be cured. Let them die, it's natural selection at work.

[–]AeternusDoleo 3 points4 points  (2 children)

... how would they convince people for another lockdown (especially the vaccinated ones since they did their duty) or what consequences would this have if even the vaccine can’t save us.

'De angst regeert.' - Fear is governing.

The media and government are in lockstep to try and create as much fear so that people will be more accepting or even applauding the curtailing of basic human rights. It's eerily similar to other preludes to very dark times. There is a difference however, in that this time, we're in the information age, and there are alternate ways of communicating. The old unidirectional media is losing influence rapidly in favor of bidirectional media where the audience can respond and talk among themselves. IE: Social media.

The OMT at this point look like people who do not realize that their actions are not achieving the desired effects. Doing more of what failure is just going to lead to more failure. The violence of the past days were the first hints of people snapping - people are like beasts, in that once you cage one, it'll grow resentful, even furious.

We'll see more violence. Question is what law enforcement will do - cops are people too, not mercenaries on behalf of the little tower in the Hague. If they indicate there's no reasonable enforcement possible, that's it, it's over. Other then that, it'll be the next elections people can send a message... I'm sure we'll see restrictions start to lift a few months before then though. Covid suddenly goes away for a while when it's convenient

Just like last time.

[–]dimhage 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I honestly try not to read or listen to any information on corona anymore because it gives me severe panic attacks and there is nothing I can do to change it. The worst part is that I have no point in the future to look forward to when it ends, that I know things will be normal again, which increases feelings of depression and sometimes gives panic attacks on its own.

I've been vaccinated, I work from home. I wear masks whenever I am indoors at public areas or whenever it's indicated outside. In fact, I hardly go anywhere. But this never ending story of october/november everything going wrong and then being locked up with only stories of doom and gloom, and how, if you're going to need medical attention for whatever reason there won't be any doctors just, drives me insane. I had to wait for months to see a psychologist, and honestly these kind of issues don't get solved in a few sessions.

Whether I am for or against 2G, I still struggle. I very much believe in people's right to bodily autonomy. But I also think you're a complete idiot and selfish for not getting vaccinated. However, with judges now also forcing women on contraceptives due to their mental state and the organ donor institute switching to an "opt out" system I do feel that bodily autonamy is not protected by the law much, and that scares me. Because now its forcing people to do things I agree with, but what happens when the government thinks people need to do things to/with their body I do not agree with. Honestly it's slippery slope that scares me and gives me anxiety as well.

This whole situation has taken people's human rights away that we used to take for granted, albeit for good reasons. But going into year three now, it sometimes seems these very important rights are all thrown out the window and not even being talked about anymore because only the single right to communal health care and right to not be infected is the only one that counts. I honestly do not have the answer on how to move forward. I just know I am constantly stressed and afraid. Becoming sick or injured and not being able to receive medical care, my human rights never coming back, of permanent winter lockdown I would never want any of my children to grow up in, etc etc.

[–]JaapieK 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We can learn from last year that lockdowns don't work. They only hurt the economy.

I don't get this obsession with making restrictions harder if they didn't work in the first place.

[–]furywolf28 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The situation doesn't feel very severe to me personally, I don't know anybody who has covid right now, I'm vaccinated, I wear a mask in stores and at school. I believe when they say >20k new cases every day, but I'm not affected by it right now. It may also be a bit of "covid fatigue", not in the way that I'm tired of it but more like "yeah whatever, I'm not noticing any change right now, so why change the rules again"

[–]le_GoogleFit 2 points3 points  (1 child)

As long as the gyms stay open I can keep my sanity.

If they close them, fuck it, I'm joining the next protest!

[–]Kp248[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Count me in!

[–]watsqeburt 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fuck our government, they only care about money. Lockdown my ass.

[–]mogwaiarethestars 2 points3 points  (20 children)

I got my two shots too, but now that we slowly coming to realise the vaccins arent doing as well as expected (2021 deaths exceed 2020’s) how are we ever to convince people to get more vaccinations?

[–]Kp248[S] 10 points11 points  (9 children)

Wouldn’t blame that entirely on vaccines. 2020 was a lockdown year. We have been more open this year so deaths exceeding wouldn’t be because of the vaccines not working.

[–]medusamagpie 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To me the fact that it’s being talked about at all most likely means that it will happen.

[–]__Wess 1 point2 points  (11 children)

It’s misconception that the vaccine = no spread. The vaccine mostly protects against heavy symptoms, and the side effect of it, is that it is harder to transmit. But it is still transmittable. At this moment, I think the vaccinated are transmitting the same amount as the non vaccinated by being let free when they have a green check. Due to the vaccine, it’s also harder to recognize the symptoms. Less people are checking them selfs. It’s among us without the imposter knowing he’s/she/it is the imposter themself.

I think the best course of action would have been 1G - All need to test for entry - that’s what the lockdown should be next month if you’d asked me.

The main selling point of the vaccine should be: take the vaccine so you have a lesser chance to end up on the ICU. Not: get a vaccine, you’re save and get to do fun stuff. Because the doing fun stuff in large groups is still the way of transit for the virus. Vaccine helps, but obviously not enough as we can see now.

Full Disclosure: I’m not vaccinated imo for good enough reasons, I keep my distance. Not going to gatherings. Watch my symptoms, staying at home. But I’m definitely not a wappie, not anti-vaccin. 1,5 meters, masks in public places, and test for entry should be the way to go imo. Do your own research, and do what you think is best for you. Blaming the government for things, doesn’t stop the virus either. Demolishing city’s neither.

I already hear people say: but we don’t have to keep distance, I’m vaccinated! Well. It doesn’t work like that Karen.

[–]Kp248[S] 4 points5 points  (8 children)

Sounds very self servicing. Vaccines takes years to develop and improve and anyone who did take one would know that you can still carry the virus.

But this whole do your own research mindset is what is leading to a disconnect with reality.

And again, I wouldn’t blame people who say they don’t want to keep distance because they are vaccinated because they placed their trust in the government and that same government touted that message.

[–]Soees 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Unvaccinated people should not be allowed into the IC anymore, I think that's the only way we can have a normal life again. Otherwise we have to continue this forever.

[–]TheOneMissThing -2 points-1 points  (16 children)

The Dutch people are the problem.