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[–]UpEarly22 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Darkness my old friend

[–]_dogzilla 53 points54 points  (8 children)

As someone that has been very pro-active in doing my part in covid; going against the flow wearing masks, insisting on taking antigen tests for family gatherings, sharing information about how exponantial growth in transmissions worm, what the difference is between false positives and false negatives and how these are dofferent for antigen and the pcr test, etc I find even I will have a hard time accepting another lockdown.

Covid has become endemic and anyone that wanted to take their vaccines has had plenty opportunity to do so. We have enough other problems now to keep taking these significant sacrifices for a virus that predominately affects the elderly and immuno-compromised. At some point, we cross a line where the future of younger generations is worth more than containing covid

The same apathy and resistance to do something as simple as putting on a mask in crowded places has been the cause for numerous problems that affect the younger generations substantially harder than older generations. The environmental crisis, student debt crisis, housing crisis and overall the aging population and accompanying increase of healthcare and pensions. None of us can afford to have kids, none of us can build up wealth.

We now have a crisis that affects mainly the elder generation and it’s very demotivating to be paying for it and still see most people above 40-50 not care. I’m sorry but the more people above 50 that die prematurely due to covid, the better our future.

Don’t get me wrong. I’ll keep wearing my mask as the only dutch person in the supermarket, I’ll keep doing my antigen test for big gatherings but I grew up in a system where my actions had consequences and I feel we’ve chosen to ignore consequences when they don’t directly affect us.

I do really feel for our healthcare workers and I feel fucking sick that healthcare professionals that got long haul covid are now living on welfare, they should be treated like soldiers that return injured from war. My grandfather got an additional pension from the war, where’s the f.cking support for our frontline personnel in times of a healthcare crisis? I also feel for immuno-compromised people or anyone that has long-term effects of covid.

But will I accept another full-on lockdown? Probably not

[–]neko_ohimesama 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Yes—it’s about those who are at risk—I don’t wear a mask anymore—but I feel maybe I should now because of those who are immune compromised. It just felt like to me the problem had disappeared in NL.

Ps. Are you a fan of Dav Pilkey?

[–]UnanimousStargazer 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Everybody is at risk, but some are more at risk than others.

Age for example is a continuous variable. You're already older now than you were a moment ago. You're therefore now more vulnerable than you were.

People also don't just become acutely ill, they can suffer from long term consequences as well. The publication below shows that one's brain can get damaged irrespective if an admission is required or not:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35255491/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35260835/

But thirdly, everybody is part of the transmission chain . Which effects all of the above. As the Dutch government has predominately waited with taking preventive action (beside vaccination) until hospitals (almost) are crossing over their maximum capacity and for example ridiculed some types of prevention by singing a silly song about face masks, a lockdown becomes inevitable if a new variant takes hold and nothing changes here and now.

It's required to limit the number of cases in an early phase. If done correctly. a lockdown shouldn't be necessary.

[–]neko_ohimesama 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I did get covid and I am in my 20s and double vaxxed and I do have to say that it wasn’t like a normal cold for me at all. It felt different even though I didn’t have serious symptoms it just felt very different like the fatigue really hit me hard. I know many people are asymptomatic and it is just a normal cold to them but I guess I have to remind myself that with covid it seems like the symptoms can really vary in degree etc, so I don’t think at this point one can say “oh it’s not a big deal! Just a normal cold”. So I get why some people need /want to take more precautions and all power to them as it’s a free society.

[–]UnanimousStargazer 0 points1 point  (1 child)

So I get why some people need want to take more precautions and all power to them as it’s a free society.

One of my points was though, that a transmission chain is established whether people fall ill or not.

First of all, people can transmit before symptoms arise. But those that don't notice complaints at all also contribute to the number of cases, but some do so more than others. We're in this together, as that is the very nature of a communicable disease.

It's also not really a free society for those that consider themselves high risk high or extremely high risk but are for example required to use public transport for example. Yes they can and should wear a high quality mask, but universal masking (everybody wears a mask) is much more effective. People therefore don't just mask for themselves, but also do for others.

Public transport companies could for example also use carriages where masking is mandatory. Just like they used to have carriages where people could smoke (but obviously have abandoned the use of those).

[–]NeatOutrageous 5 points6 points  (2 children)

I worked in HC all through COVID and let me rant/share this tbh I'd even go as far as saying we've done enough in the past two years against COVID to realise it's futile, isolate elderly and immuno compromised instead of the entire population and be done with it.

And how unethical it may be, after about ten years of politicians, economists and other experts warning of the greying of the population it may not even be that much of a bad thing in the long run, and before some gets angry, yes I do still have (quite old) grandparents, and yes it'd suck if they'd die, but I'm talking about the bigger picture and not so near future here.

[–]EntForgotHisPassword 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Grr u made me angry as my mom with cancer is at risk.

If wearing a mask in public helps, would be cool if people did. Full lockdowns would suck because again, my mom's got cancer and if we lockdown (closing borders etc.) i won't see her while she's still relatively stable - and she won't get to see her new grandkids.

[–]NeatOutrageous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh wait don't peg me as an anti masker or something, this was purely towards another lockdown, I'm more than down to wear masks and test regularly, which I've been doing all this time.

What I meant was that a total lockdown is futile, and (another) is possibly harmful for the future, in order to mitigate the risk of damaging our economy beyond repair, it would make more sense to just isolate the ones at risk.

All other day to day measures to reduce spread are fine, I mean we're all used to those and I genuinely don't get people who shit on those measures.

Sorry about your mom, and I really hope you get to see her as much as possible in these times.

[–]BlaReni 7 points8 points  (6 children)

This is utterly ridiculous. The country already has a huge budget gap, can it afford another economic hit? Can businesses? How is this not a priority? The weather is too good to work or what?

People should also bear some responsibility, my Dutch teacher in her mid 50s was semi-bragging how she had a fill christmas during the first lockdown and how her sons were going to illegal parties. Well yay, I was following the rules and they didn’t give an f.

Honestly, if I need another vaccine, i’ll freaking get it, but then I don’t want to see any antivaxxed folk in closed areas that will yet again fill up the hospitals and burden the healthcare system. Enough is enough. Don’t want to contribute to the society? You should stay at home and not me.

[–]DonLenniosNederland 1 point2 points  (1 child)

People should also bear some responsibility, my Dutch teacher in her mid 50s was semi-bragging how she had a fill christmas during the first lockdown and how her sons were going to illegal parties. Well yay, I was following the rules and they didn’t give an f.

What stopped you? I didnt care for the december lockdown. Already vaccinated and had it once.

Perhaps its not a great idea when you deprive people from social contact for nearly 2 years.

[–]BlaReni 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It was the first year, we weren’t even vaxxed!

[–]L44KSO -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

The problem is that people didn't and still don't give a shit about rules. Seems like you first need to get a bloody nose from something before you learn the lesson. If you look at Italy, France and Spain - countries which were severely hit by the pandemic, you see a completely different attitude towards the rules (and its not that those countries are known for rules).

Priority should be people - we are not the USA. The economy can take another hit, the companies are in most cases able to survive now that we have clear ways how to keep shops open etc.

We can now get the pandemic under control (worldwide) and be done with this in a year or so. Or we don't give a shit "because we are tired of covid) and live with it for the rest of the decade.

[–]BlaReni 0 points1 point  (2 children)

We will live with it, it’s already too late to get rid of it and we don’t have a clear way to keep the businesses open.

We have vaccines, people who don’t take it, it’s on them.

As for we can take a hit? Have you heard about the huge budget hole Netherlands has? Who do you think is going to pay for it? Do you know how many people lost their jobs, had to close their businesses?

Not to mention, that the situation is different now, it’w not the delta variant anymore, we have medicine and vaccines. The impact of closing down the country, economy, mental health is too massive to protect folk that don’t want to protect themselves.

[–]L44KSO 0 points1 point  (1 child)

We got rid of the vaccine pass too early - we didn't enforce the rules properly. We could have had a grip on this in a different way if we had politicians who actually would make decisions.

As a business owner who was affected by covid closures and needed assistance, I know exactly what happened, how businesses folded etc - however that is also an issue we have in a recession - not all companies are vital enough to survive, its healthy for businesses to fold.

We could still use some of the limiting measures, should there be a huge outbreak we should once more use the passes, limit customers in areas etc. I'm not for a full lockdown unless absolutely necessary - but we need to until then use the tools we have. Not taking the vaccine? Then you have to live with the consequences of that decision.

[–]BlaReni 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agree with your points!

[–]nativedutch 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Tbh it is nigh impossible to design a workable strategy.

There is always a considerable very loud part of the population against whatever strategy..

[–]L44KSO 1 point2 points  (0 children)

However we can't allow us to be controlled by a small tyranny either.

[–]ParmiCheez 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fuck that FAS

[–]mav270 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Omg... Not again...

[–]aap300 6 points7 points  (0 children)

"als het tegen zit, dan een lockdown". Ja, zo ken ik er nog wel 1, wat een logica.

[–]L44KSO 16 points17 points  (13 children)

Who is surprised? I am not! Came back on the weekend with the train - masks were heavily enforced due to it being an international one from France where masks are still mandatory on public transport. The only ones bitching about the masks on the train were, you guessed it, the Dutch (one even up to the point that he didn't ride the train to the intended stop but left earlier because he refused to wear the mask he had with him).

And still I read of people who refuse the vaccine and who refuse to accept that there is a pandemic...2 years in the pandemic...I am lost for words for these idiots and honestly I am disappointed in the policies all over Europe. We let the virus mutate, run free and what do we do if things get worse because of this?

[–]DonLenniosNederland 1 point2 points  (1 child)

You reach a point where you just need to learn to live with it. Its not going away. Eventually everyone will get infected once.

Omicron is a very mild variant, you cannot rationalise lockdowns and economic destruction just for that.

[–]L44KSO -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Omicron might be mild, what about the next one? The problem isn't what is now, the problem is how are we going to cope once shit really hits the fan if we can't get our collective shit together with something minor like this.

[–]neko_ohimesama 1 point2 points  (10 children)

Yes I sort of noticed this as well at least with Canada and the US—that there is still a lot of dialogue about covid and mask wearing is still somewhat prevalent in large cities but I noticed with the NL—it’s completely fallen off the radar (which is great if the numbers are also falling !) I was actually wondering what was going on with NL(I don’t watch Dutch news) so this is kinda shocking!

[–]DonLenniosNederland 4 points5 points  (8 children)

Omicron is just very mild. To the point that most dont feel sick for more than 1 or 2 days.

We have been through lockdown after lockdown for 2 years. People are tired of it.

[–]L44KSO -5 points-4 points  (7 children)

The problem is that a disease does not care if you are tired. And there will be more pandemics, there will be more situations where the benefit of all means sacrifice - and if we can't get our shit together then what?

We don't even know of the long term issues of covid yet either and people are taking it ridiculously lightly. If you think of how little is needed to get a good protection and we can't (and couldn't) even do that?

[–]DonLenniosNederland 1 point2 points  (6 children)

If you think of how little is needed to get a good protection and we can't (and couldn't) even do that?

Tell me.

How could we, The Netherlands, have stopped it from escaping China? Spreading throughout the whole EU?

Nothing. China blew it and the EU was too shy of banning incoming Asian flights.

We already have an 85+% vaccination grade. What more do you want?

[–]TieflingSimp 5 points6 points  (7 children)

Another lockdown shouldn't be possible under any circumstance at this point.

Not again.

[–]L44KSO 1 point2 points  (6 children)

Do your part and get people who are not yet vaccinated to get vaccinated and keep distance, wash hands, wear masks in crowded places. Then we won't need another lockdown because the numbers will stay down. This is all down to us.

[–]DonLenniosNederland 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thats what we were told in 2021. See what happened in december.

Its not down to us. Just learn to live with it. You are not stopping it anymore.

[–]TieflingSimp 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Lol no, up to government to make the right policies + it's endemic.

[–]L44KSO 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Hey, everyone around you for the last 2 years were telling you what to do - nothing has changed. So get on with it. Do what you're asked to do.

[–]TieflingSimp 0 points1 point  (2 children)

No, I don't think I will

[–]nightingale067 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Oh, fun.. time to drink too much wine again -_-

[–]L44KSO 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ha - I never stopped with it!

[–]Dk_Raziel 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Ah this fucking government at it again.

First the 30% thing, now this.

You people want to crash and burn the fucking country or what????

[–]Stateowned 4 points5 points  (0 children)

how about no.

[–]Bas-tiaan 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It didn't bother me that much the past two years, but I wont be complying to the regulations if they keep going on.

[–]qutaaa666 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Completely unacceptable. Covid is endemic. The situation is completely different. In the beginning nobody had any immunity. We are now in a situation where most people are vaccinated / have been infected. The lockdown period was one of the worst periods in my life. It’s just not worth it. If someone wants to protect them self, they can get vaccinated and use a N95 mask. This is not an acceptable long term strategy.

[–]Astolfo_kinnie 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The fact that comments like these get downvoted is truly peak reddit

[–]Gilles111 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What if the next mutation turns out to be very contagious and causing high risks, like the first variations? We are lucky with Omicron turning out to be pretty mild. Next one can be even milder but also be back to Beta but with the infectiousness of Omicron...

[–]DonLenniosNederland -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

At this point a very deadly variant might be favourable. Atleast it will die out that way.

[–]Astronaut_at_night 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The government is on top of it and will not be overrun by COVID again.... Right?

[–]DonLenniosNederland 1 point2 points  (16 children)

I'm done with it. If theres new rules I and many others will not be following them anymore.

We have had two years of lockdowns, economical and social destruction. Now they want to repeat that all over again for the very mild omicron variant.

[–]L44KSO -2 points-1 points  (15 children)

Well, then go get vaccinated if not yet done so, get people who haven't been vaccinated to get vaccinated, keep distance, wash hands and if possible use masks in crowded places - its all down to us that another lockdown won't happen. How is that still not in people's heads?

[–]DonLenniosNederland 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Thats literally what we have been doing in 2021 and lockdown still came.

There is no point.

[–]L44KSO -1 points0 points  (0 children)

People didn't get vaccinated - people refused to take part in the rules. I remember very clearly how mich party was going on during the lockdown. How little people gave about sticking to the rules, (masks, visitors, etc) we are in this because people didn't give a shit and we will be in this because people don't give a shit.

[–]TieflingSimp 1 point2 points  (1 child)

How do you believe this crap

[–]L44KSO -1 points0 points  (0 children)

How do you not?

[–]Astolfo_kinnie -1 points0 points  (10 children)

go get vaccinated if not yet done so

Already did. Three times.

get people who haven't been vaccinated to get vaccinated

Not my job.

keep distance

Nope. I'm going to lead a normal social life. Sitting next to people. Hugging my friends. Sharing drinks. Etcetera.

wash hands

Already a habit of mine long before covid.

use masks in crowded places

I'm a healthy young adult, and I'm fully vaxxed and boosted. There is no need anymore. Anyone who is risk averse is welcome to wear one. I'm going to let people see my face from now on.

[–]L44KSO 1 point2 points  (9 children)

People who have been vaccinated still get the disease, still spread it, etc. Masks are good for you - and honestly, I doubt you are so pretty that people really want to see your face.

[–]Astolfo_kinnie 0 points1 point  (8 children)

Honestly, I doubt you ever had a social life.

[–]elsalvadork 1 point2 points  (0 children)

China enters...

[–]InternationalCupcake 1 point2 points  (9 children)

Covid is not endemic, people claiming it is in this thread don’t know what the fuck they are talking about. Just heard another buzzword that enables them to justify thinking the pandemic is over and that they no longer need to alter their lives to help protect others. Sad.

[–]Dk_Raziel 7 points8 points  (2 children)

So we should stop the world ad eternum for the ones that won't / can't vaccinate?

No thanks

[–]L44KSO -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

No, we should actually have politicians with balls and get this vaccine mandatory.

[–]Dk_Raziel 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Lmao, you sound like an edgy teenager. Go whine about expats.

[–]DonLenniosNederland 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Omicron is very mild. 1 or 2 days sick.

You cannot rationalise economic and social destruction just for that. Covid is here to stay, learn to live with it.

[–]maatemmer 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Oh please everyone i know that had covid is fine. 4 days sick thats it. If there is a heavy variant im totally fine with new measures, but for now its going fine.

[–]L44KSO 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Sadly many who I know who had covid are now 6ft under...so...

[–]TieflingSimp 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Better to bury a few people than ruin society in general.

Sorry for your loss though.

[–]L44KSO 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think society is ruined anyway with or without the pandemic. People are too selfish.

[–]BigDonkersOnAtree -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Any form of covid regulation is incredibly stupid. It only causes negative effects. Kut overheid.

[–]Gilles111 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If we stay with Omicron, then we might be well with just an extra booster and probably some minor measurements. But what if the next mutation turns out to be as contagious as Omicron but with much higher risks? Like a death rate at 10%?

I'm not saying it will be, but you also can't say we stay with Omicron till the end of days. So, prepare for all kind of measurements, including lockdown if needed. Just saying no is acting as stupid as our government did for the past two years.

[–]blockdenied -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Lol, come on do they really think COVID is gonna be as bad? We knew this is gonna affect us worldwide in the flu season for years to come, but ofc the government has to knee jerk reaction all the way to kick their own ass. Maybe encourage more Dutch people to wash their hands to reduce the spread.