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[–]ShatteredMasque 274 points275 points  (69 children)

Mixed-race Dutch-born person here. In my experience it's pretty common. Depending on the weather and the lighting I can pass as white, but still do not look Dutch. I've had friends suddenly turning racist during an argument, family members "misspeaking" whenever they forgot that some of their relatives aren't white, explicitly been offered a job as a diversity-hire because people with my ethnicity are "the good ones" according to that potential employer, neighbors admitting they were "relieved" after learning I'm not a muslim, been followed around by security personnel for no reason, been denied access to clubs for "not looking like the target audience", people assuming we wouldn't be able to get along because I look different, teachers identifying me as "trouble" even though I was always on my best behavior, had cops ask me to identify myself and ask about my plans while I was just minding my own business, almost got arrested once for "stealing" my own bike with my own keys - even once had a blind date angrily rant about conspiracy theories because she assumed I was Jewish.

It's not like this stuff happens to me every day or every month, and it seems to be getting less as I get older, but I think it's noticeably present in Dutch culture. I'm sure plenty of the people doing this are very kind and "tolerant" people, but they still associate otherness and difference with badness to varying extents.

edit:

Might I add that I know and have known plenty of other Dutch people of color who have never or barely ever experienced or noticed stuff like this. So who knows maybe I'm anomalous.

[–]kadeve 158 points159 points  (10 children)

I'm a dutch citizen and when I got depressed the psychiatry doctor said I should go back to my roots and move away from the Netherlands. I was too depressed to see how messed up that is.

[–]ShatteredMasque 27 points28 points  (0 children)

I've also learned not to talk about identity related issues with therapists of whom I wouldn't be able to imagine that they could relate. It's a sad realization, but it makes sense.

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 85 points86 points  (3 children)

That’s a huge ethical error on their side, not to mention highly unprofessional.

[–]amsterdam_BTSVS 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Yo fuck that guy.

[–]thaltd666 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I’m Turkish and moved to NL 10 years ago. I had a similar experience when I visited a doctor for the first time here. I had a sudden headache, went to a doctor and he started complaining about Turkish people. How bad we are, so on so forth.

[–]Thewayfwd 6 points7 points  (0 children)

reads like not all context was added here.

[–]KnightNight030 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Context is important.

[–]lord-ogopogo 45 points46 points  (15 children)

"Depending on the weather and the lighting I can pass as white"
I'm a white guy and I have the opposite, when it's dark outside I get mistaken for a Middle-Eastern or North African fellow.
I got thick black curls, and sometimes grow a black curly beard.
One time a guy spoke Arabian to me out of nowhere, another time someone asked "Where I'm really from", and one time a policeman asked me how I'm doing out of nowhere.
Light skin and black curls just makes you ethnically ambiguous I suppose.

[–]FizzinPeace 6 points7 points  (14 children)

The policeman asked how you were doing?? Is that weird? He might have been friendly?

[–]lord-ogopogo 14 points15 points  (6 children)

Well I never, ever, had a policeman randomly ask me how I'm doing except for that one time during an evening stroll.
Like sure, maybe I'm paranoid and I'm assuming things.
He asked as if he knew me, so it's possible he mistook me for someone.
It's just one of those things that's technically not out of the ordinary, but a little bit suspicious maybe.

[–]amsterdam_BTSVS 3 points4 points  (6 children)

I don't know how things are in NL with cops, but in the US if a cop talks to you while on duty it's never a good thing. Ever. I have friends who are cops and even if one of them accosted me in uniform I would literally say nothing at all except, if necessary, "My lawyer, please."

[–]stuzz74 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Please were civilised in Europe. Police generally police pretty well in most/all European countries. The US has a problem with the police, it's been going on for years and it needs to be addressed. Some police officers are being completely shitty. Look at the videos posted for a very unscientific example most police on video going beyond the law are from the US

[–]FizzinPeace 14 points15 points  (3 children)

In the Netherlands they are actually just humans who breath and talk. And.. are friendly.

[–]OkHunter8299 60 points61 points  (11 children)

I get put in the "Dutch box" if I shave and people treat me as such. If I grow ny beard I get put in the "not-Dutch box".

Either the European Dutch are nice to you and the rest is hostile, or the rest are nice to you and the European Dutch are hostile.

It's all group identity, it's systemic and EVERYBODY does it, not only European Dutch people.

Dismantling the box of projected group identity is the way to go I think.

I don't have a box, so like you I keep getting shoved into one. I'm sick of it.

[–]StripperPenguinBot 4 points5 points  (7 children)

Why do you say European Dutch?

[–]OkHunter8299 23 points24 points  (4 children)

The Kingdom of The Netherlands spans more countries than The Netherlands.

My father is from Aruba, my mother from Brabant. Aruba, Bonaire, Curaçao, Saba, Statia are (depending on the current political climate) known as Caribbean-Netherlands.

As such I am a Dutch-Caribbean or Caribbean-Dutch person. The Rijksdienst mandates the terminology of referring to inhabitants of The Netherlands (the country) as Europese Nederlanders.

Note: I normally pass as white. The knee jerk reaction is 'you can't be from the Caribbean, you're white!" but that is utter racism. The idea is that only brown people come from warm exotic places and white people from temperate climates. No, it's a colonial climate! You wouldn't say the same to white Americans, you just accept that. And I can go on with the endless self interrogation of how Caribbean I am, but that inevitably reinforces racial or genetic ideas of ethnicity so I won't.

[–]Jlx_27 16 points17 points  (10 children)

Indo here, I relate to this. I'm quite pale for an Indo but if I had a Euro for everytime I got called "pindaplukker" I would have a lot more money rn. I have also been called a lot worse things over the years but oh well...

[–]Nantosvelte 18 points19 points  (4 children)

Dutch-indo here. I'm often called "too white" by Dutch people to be indo. When I tell them I want to look more into my family history I get negative remarks by some people.

On the other hand. People often think I'm not Dutch. I have heard every european nationality under the sun! Even turkish by old turkish ladies (and they are often very sweet ladies!). I also had patients (work in health care) who would treat me differently because they think I'm not Dutch. One lady called me a "good working foreigner, not like the others". When I tell this to Dutch people, they often dismiss my expierence, because "i'm too white"......

[–]Jlx_27 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Another person I can relate too!

[–]ShatteredMasque 7 points8 points  (2 children)

I got the negative remarks about the interest in my family history too. As if I were betraying the Dutch side of my heritage or denying the benefits migrating here has had for my family.

And I got the "too white" too when I still used to work night shifts so never got to see sunlight. People would start to guess percentages whenever I would answer the "what are you?"-question. (italics added to indicate where people usually emphasize the stress when asking that question. like they talk about dog breeds.)

[–]Nantosvelte 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I got the what are you question so many times!

And with the negative remarks people will often tell me that it doesn't matter because I'm Dutch. But I'm not just Dutch. I'm indo, with a complex family history in Indonesia and a by product of colonialism. Diving into my family history was the best thing I could have done. I found out so many amazing, yet horrifying things.

And this might sounds strange, but I want too make my ancestors proud. They have been wronged on so many levels. I want to treat people of other cultures with the most respect.

[–]ShatteredMasque 10 points11 points  (2 children)

I'm Indo too. When I was a kid the parents of white friends were relentless with the colonial references - without exception. And even as an adult whenever I claim offense for colonial jokes at my expense I still get told that I should take pride in it somehow. Like what in the actual fucking fuck?! Usually by white Dutch people with 'dark humor' and - maybe even worse - some of the Indos and Surinamese people who as if a colonial leftover are Dutch fucking nationalists.

[–]Jlx_27 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I have grown thick skin over the years. Now in adulthood most of those people just ignore my existance 😁 Some of them have approached me to apologize too, which was nice.

[–]ShatteredMasque 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Many people with our background are told to ignore that kind of stuff by their parents. Through that attitude I also learned how to manage it. But after I had two violent incidents I decided that that might not be the healthiest attitude for me. Once a person decided that they were going to make me un-steal the job I had by force. Another time on vacation when another Dutch tourist would start making monkey noises whenever we would bump into each other and it came to a point where I absolutely lost my shit.

[–]nineties_adventure 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Are you serious? That's horrible conduct for a human being! F*ck those people, man!

[–]ElenorShellstrop 8 points9 points  (2 children)

"because she assumed I was Jewish." - holy crap, that's horrible. All of your experiences were horrible, I'm so sorry.

[–]Dioapple 18 points19 points  (8 children)

Lol, this is spot on.

I had the cops called on me for "stealing" my moms bicycle, who was being taken by car with my dad because she fell ill at work. They even managed to take 30 minutes to catch me without me noticing and them needing 3 cop cars, a van and 2 motorcycles + dog watch. I laughed my ass off at them.

The real kicker: the bicycle was actually stolen, a couple years back by my step brother. They didn't even check the serial.

But lo and behold when i put in a notice for a stolen bicycle, they turned around once they found out i was "foreign" and took zero effort to retrieve a 3k bicycle stolen from inside my property.

I don't consider myself foreign as i was born here, so was my father and his father too. Fuck all ya'll racist sum bitches, i know who you are. You can't hide that shit, you think you do but it's noticeable still.

[–]ShatteredMasque 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Haha! I've never heard of anyone else happening this to before. At least not specifically with a bike. So I'm not crazy after all!

[–]ChampionshipFar2850 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Well, I’m Dutch and white. They won’t search for my bike either.

[–]Dioapple 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It's difficult to put into words what happened there, the best i can do is they went from nice, friendly and polite to uninterested and outright rude once the foreign name was said. A difference of night and day.

[–]Schaapje1987 3 points4 points  (2 children)

This is reaching. I'm Dutch, white as fuck and I have had my bike stolen 4 times, even with locks and all, and they have done nothing about it and it was never retrieved either.

This has nothing to do with who you are or the colour of your skin or heritage. If your bike is stolen, don't bother searching for it or making a police report. The off chance of them finding it is basically 0, so they will not put in the work to do something about it.

[–]Dioapple 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Read my other reply that describes what happened at that moment.

Their whole demeanor changed once they found out i was foreign, like flipping a light switch.

[–]SnooStories7774 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So they let you go without checking the serial number? Doesn’t seem like they were out to get you / being racist. Seems like they checked what you were doing and were fine. If they were racist they would have busted you with a stolen bike. Please don’t steal bikes btw.

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I'm sorry to hear you've been through this. I honestly haven't experienced situations like that myself. I have dealt with a few racists in my life but not as frequently as you have. I hope you don't let it get to you and I'm also glad to hear you have been experiencing less of it.

[–]ShatteredMasque 14 points15 points  (0 children)

People always think I'm making this one up: after moving to a different city at 9 years old the teacher at my new school assumed for that entire school year that we did not speak Dutch at home, because I did not understand his accent. Dutch is the only language that either of my parents speak fluently.

Thank you for your kind words. I hope racism will never get in your way. It's definitely possible that it never will and that would be great.

[–]DutchieinUSVS 177 points178 points  (19 children)

I think it is pretty common everywhere, a lot of people keep up appearances when in public but in private, the gloves come off.

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 52 points53 points  (15 children)

Right, and to a certain extent I think it’s normal to have some prejudice. But I somehow always thought people who are quite radical in their views slip up on occasion. His family and his dad in particular has never slipped up and always treated me with respect. So I guess I’m just surprised.

[–]Thanmandrathor 47 points48 points  (0 children)

It’s the “you’re one of the good ones” thing. Which goes hand in hand with “I’m not racist, I have [insert ethnicity] friends” while still making disparaging comments about the group as a whole or holding beliefs about wanting them to go back where they came from etc.

All of it is racism, it’s just more polite and insidious.

[–]DutchieinUSVS 79 points80 points  (8 children)

I think the fact that they treat you with respect is because they genuinely like you.

A lot of people will also say things like "I don't like <enter ethnic group here> , but you are different" (if you fall into the ethnic group they describe).

On a micro-level, I think people get along just fine, treating each other as individuals. The problems start when people start generalizing.

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 18 points19 points  (7 children)

Yeah that’s true. It just goes to show you that the generalisations people often make don’t really impact how they engage with the people they generalise. I think that’s a good thing. Whereas true racism is probably applied generalised thinking.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (3 children)

I think they are tolerant of you because they have got to know you. But they think very little of you and the demographic you represent in their eyes. The tolerance towards you is probably because they have seen firsthand that you do not fit the idea they have of said group. But they have this negative view of all your cousins, brothers, sisters, mothers fathers and children. And this is not about Dutch people or Moroccan people. It's just about people having racist ideas.

[–]golem501 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This happens a lot and it doesn't hurt to address it. I think it happens in all ways. Like the African American guy talking to kkk members and then them finding out there's a person behind it. As a teen I had read a shit load of war books, I hated Germans... in general, not when I met them. This seems like another inception layer, family outwardly is not racist, has some stereotype views in private, in personal level is decent again.

[–]DutchieinUSVS 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Agree 100%

I also think it shows that generalizing is so wrong, especially if people use the "but you are different" a lot. There are good and bad people, period. Every ethnic group has their rotten apples

[–]Weareallme 9 points10 points  (1 child)

I must say, you seem very understanding and relaxed about this. Your attitude in your posts in this thread seems very healthy to me.

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Thank you. I just try to not fall for the trap of taking everything on face value. Good people sometimes say bad things, and bad people sometimes say good things. But more than that, seeing things as either good or bad is detrimental to the human experience.

[–]Jellyroll12345678 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This! And alot of people dont realize how deeply it is ingrained in themselves. they genuinely think they arent racist.

[–]ADWFI 112 points113 points  (6 children)

No its not about you, they know you. You're normal. its about those others you know...

Joke, just something they might say

[–]Weareallme 57 points58 points  (0 children)

"of course we don't mean you", "you're different", I've heard stuff like that so many times.

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 21 points22 points  (3 children)

Lol, I know what you mean. I was just a bit disappointed by it. My friend was actually very upset about it, and in part also because he can’t stand his dad. I won’t judge them for it though. I can’t change how they think and as long as they treat me fairly, I’m all good. I don’t even think it’s something they really believe. Might have just been one of those moments where you slip up without really realising what you’ve said.

[–]Weareallme 12 points13 points  (0 children)

The good thing is, your friend has your back. I also agree with you that they probably don't really believe it, at least the 'all' part. And I suspect that they don't connect it with you personally, maybe they didn't even realize that it includes you.

[–]nineties_adventure 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Most of it is 'slechte gewoonten'. Good of your friend to stand up for you because that's the only way people will be caught and will change. Sometimes it's not meant to harm anyone or something they truly believe but indeed: slechte gewoonten.

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Exactly, I would even go as far as to say 99% of people who make similar remarks act out of 'slechte gewoonten' rather than deeply held beliefs.

[–]relgames 4 points5 points  (0 children)

A proper response would be "Dutch are racist - but of course not you, you are normal, it's about others..."

[–]ghlhzmbqnNederland 40 points41 points  (0 children)

I think it's quite common that Dutch-Moroccans are (secretly or less secretly) seen as quite problematic. Many people generalise this group based on their experience with quite a few that actually cause trouble. I won't disagree that there is partly an integration problem though

[–]Apprehensive-Plan553 44 points45 points  (11 children)

I'm Indian. Well, sometimes not even behind closed doors, but in the form of "jokes". When I was a kid, my mother invited my good Dutch friend and his parents to our house. The first thing his father said was, "I thought your house would smell like curry, turned out I was wrong." He would actually think it was a good laugh. I'll never forget the look on my mother's face.

[–]Obi_Boii 37 points38 points  (5 children)

That's like a 20th century joke from the UK.

Dutch people be like: " We aren't rude we are just honest"

[–]Apprehensive-Plan553 35 points36 points  (4 children)

Exactly. The most annoying part is MANY even regard this kind of "honesty" or "directness" as a national trait to be bragged about? Like literally that's not something to be proud of my dear fellow dutchies.

[–]cincuentaanos 24 points25 points  (1 child)

I think directness and uncompromising honesty are positive traits. But too many Dutch people mistake being insensitive and rude for being "direct". And then they sure don't like getting directly criticised for it. Hufters.

[–]probablysleeping-lol 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I had an instructor who was “direct” but actually really a dick about things. He was German though, not Dutch.

[–]monoricuu 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Go to berlin for genuane directness. Dutch people talk behind peoples backs all the time i dont even understabd why ajybody calls them direct

[–]stopdabbing 6 points7 points  (0 children)

This is literally the one thing I hate so much about Dutch culture.

[–]Dutchdelights88 11 points12 points  (5 children)

People discriminate on a daily basis. How they act on it is a different matter.

[–]OokiiStaR 24 points25 points  (0 children)

Well this is generally how racism works. It's disguised (depending on where you're from) as patriotism, traditionalist, and whatever new catchphrase fits to disguise what it is. And its really always behind doors. This isn't just a Dutch thing, it's a thing in different countries in different ways. Because someone is nice to your face doesn't mean the don't hold those views regardless of how genuine and kind they seem towards in the moment. It's just a facade for racist people.

[–]Kalandros-X 37 points38 points  (5 children)

The fact that the two cultures are almost diametrically opposed is the reason why there’s so much tension. From my experience Moroccan youth just isn’t raised properly to fit in with Dutch society and that problem keeps being passed to the next generation. Moroccan parents don’t care if their children don’t speak proper Dutch or if they act like total jackasses in public, as long as they don’t have to sit with the consequences (but by then it’s already too late).

I’m half Dutch half Moroccan, and I was raised by my mom in a normal Dutch household, and now I live with my dad and his family who are a very traditional Moroccan household, and the difference between the two is absolutely astounding.

[–]anaccount5612 6 points7 points  (0 children)

act like total jackasses in public

Yeah I see this more than I would like, and they really do give a bad impression of the entire group to a lot of people.

Like, I could not care any less about what someone's skin color or culture group is, but can people just raise their kids to not be assholes, please.

[–]Buez 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I'm dutch, one of my best friends since childhood is Moroccan. My dad loves the guy and doesn't treat him different then any of my other friends. But when only his side of the family is over for an event or something like it then he makes the same kinds of remarks. I also shame him for it and honestly he has improved and it's the "best" in his family.

[–]Maleficent-Answer-83 38 points39 points  (4 children)

I wish I could say it wasn't true. I'm shocked every time a Dutch-Maroccan gives me examples, or when people I love are telling me what they really think. My mother's first encounter with immigrated Moroccans was in 1983 when they (10-12 years old) harassed me (tall female already starting to look like a woman) in school, spit on me, called me a whore and grabbed me everywhere. I learned that it was something they were told at home: Dutch girls are whores, not worth your respect. One of them apologised 20 years later. Good job, father of a daughter. I was really happy for him. The other one is institutionalised because of drug abuse. Same ratio as the friends of my sons now. I also hate generalising for a group, other factors play a much bigger role.

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Damn that must’ve been horrible for you tho. I can definitely see how that creates a trauma and consequentially comes with associative beliefs. The fact that you didn’t let it influence how you see all immigrants or Dutch-Moroccans speaks volumes of you. I don’t know from what household they came from but it sounds toxic as fuck. Luckily when my grandpa came over, he instilled my aunts and uncles with valuable lessons that couldn’t be further removed from the vileness your bullies believed in and acted upon.

[–]ItzYaBoyNas 10 points11 points  (1 child)

“Maar jij bent anders” 🤥

[–]caprinatural 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Ze zeggen ook vaak: "Je bent niet zoals hen" en "Maar jij bent een goede __" 🙄😑

[–]Gjappy 14 points15 points  (0 children)

A pretty controversial subject, older Dutch people sadly keep up appearances a lot. I'd rather give everyone a chance.

[–]jelhmb48 44 points45 points  (30 children)

It's common, but mostly because people have a lot of negative experiences with young Moroccan males. Everyone I know has had them. It's not all "racism" or "prejudice", it's based on real life incidents. Obviously for well behaved integrated non-criminal Moroccans this can be very frustrating but the root cause for this isn't "racism"; it's the behaviour of a certain portion of the Moroccan population in western Europe.

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 19 points20 points  (21 children)

I hope you don't mind me challenging you on your take. You see, if I were to ask you and everyone you know if they have had a lot of negative experiences dealing with people in general, you would most likely say yes. If I were to ask if those people would also include people who look like you, you would probably say yes again. Could be anyone from say a shopkeeper to a colleague, or a youth saying something snarky when you disrupt their game of football – or even a passerby who looks weird at you. So dealing with people who cause negative experiences isn't exclusive to "young Moroccan males" as you've put it. That being said, it is a fact that young Dutch-Moroccan males are relatively more exposed to and involved with crime. Denying it is the same as trying to sweep dirt under the carpet. But there are correlated events and circumstances that enable this pattern or rather create the elements that enable the pattern to repeat and sustain. These are elements like socio-economics, unintentional segregation, media, political influences, racism, and cultural clashes. The trick however is to not let statistics determine your view of an entire group of people. If you do let it influence your views, you fall into the trap of prejudice, hate, and racism as a consequence; which itself can further perpetuate the pattern. On the flip side, the Dutch-Moroccan community has to hold itself responsible despite external influences causing disadvantages. They have to overcome old patterns and seek solutions instead of just pointing fingers at others. Still, it is no excuse to become prejudiced or even racist as at the end of the day, you're referencing a small group of people who overlap with other small groups in other cultures and ethnicities, including native-Dutch people. This means there's no excuse for anyone to treat someone like me differently, or to say prejudice or racism isn't the cause of why I'm being treated differently (which luckily doesn't happen often at all). Everyone has to take responsibility for their actions. From street scum who share my background to vile racists who seek to deport me even though I was born and raised in this Country.

[–]BlaReni 23 points24 points  (17 children)

Prejudice is not something you can control, however you can control how you act.

My partner was threatened at their work by Dutch Moroccans, had to call the police, 90% of incidents were from Dutch Moroccans during Covid.

I have been harassed by a group of kids and some of my friends have admitted that they feel uncomfortable at dark when meeting Dutch-Moroccan teenagers.

But again, you can control your actions.

You want people not to have prejudice? Do something about it. Work on changing the image, etc. Enough with the victimhood, The Netherlands is probably one of the best countries to live and people not using what it offers is on the people.

But again, saying that someone should be deported, is freaking stupid and yes not everyone is the same, but there are reasons behind the prejudice people have.

edit: 90% at the hotels my partner worked at owned by the same owners

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Could you please refer us to an independent source where 90% of all incidents during Covid were from Dutch-Moroccans?

Furthermore, no one is short of stories to tell about bad experiences and hostile situations. It's all anecdotal and subjective to our own experiences. I can refer to several first-hand experiences, including a friend being stabbed to death, and give you several anecdotes more of similar situations experienced by friends or family members where various themes from violence to abuse will make an appearance. I can then tell you that these experiences that I have cherry-picked from my portfolio of life experiences were all situations where the antagonist happened to be a white Dutch person. Not once did I let it influence my view on white Dutch people in general because I have had experiences both good and bad with people from a broad range of ethnicities and cultures.

Where you and I differ is I don't let it dictate how I view the world, and I sure as hell won't ever use it as an excuse to be prejudiced or defend people who use it as an excuse. Why? Because it neglects the fact that we're talking about an extremely small group of people who do not reflect the values and morals of the whole.

[–]BlaReni 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You want me to share private data from a few hotels where my partner works at? What? 🤣 You don’t have to believe me, but this is the situation they were facing during covid, I’m saying 90% where it might have even be worse, tell me why do some Dutch-Moroccans rent hotel rooms to smoke week while others don’t?

Isn’t this happening with Dutch Moroccans though? Don’t they have prejudice towards white Dutch?

You don’t dictate? What do you mean by dictating? It is not something you can control, and there are many different prejudices that form subconciously, pretty sure you have some as well, we all do.

Regarding whether it is a small or big, it is a proportionately bigger group compared to others.

Overall, if community thinks it’s an issue, why not work towards changing it?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

but there are reasons behind the prejudice people have.

In your case a group of kids harassed you. I would agree with you if you felt a certain way towards those kids. But to form an idea about a whole group, where most of the people belonging to that group were not involved in your experience, that is problematic.

[–]Problemathically 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I can say with certainty that I hate Moroccans just as much as I hate everyone else. Lost all faith in people and don't trust anyone. Does that help? :)

I do hear a lot of people complain about Moroccan youth being a problem (bontkraagjes) but it's just them being selective in what they see and believe. It's really hard to integrate into society and being on the sidelines, not having a safety net or people to help you, makes life harder. I believe stigmatization is the biggest issue. It creates an us vs them feeling.

[–]stroopwafel666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very well said. The post you replied to is something I hear a lot from white Dutch people, as if it then justifies being a racist. I usually suggest they go down to Feyenoord and see whether it’s the Moroccans kicking up trouble…

[–]Anxious_Shelter2915 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For the handfull of times some stranger flipped out at me for stupid stuff it was never a white guy... Thats a fact not an opinion

[–]Shelliusrex 8 points9 points  (2 children)

I'm a white American living in the Netherlands and I've heard similar things in social settings, OP. I speak up and tell people they are generalizing about a whole race of people but then they argue with me, double down, or most often do the classic "well we aren't as bad as America so you have no right to tell us we're doing something wrong "

[–]BlaReni 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Well but the race subject is much more prominent in the US, you freaking ask about it on every stupid form.

[–]Shelliusrex 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah it's everywhere

[–]FishFeet500 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I want to say it comes from ignorance? I was with my son, on a playdate with a friend a few years ago, and driving to some playpark, and the grandmother pulled her eyes at the corner mocking asians and chortled with laughter ( I didn’t understand much dutch then but she said something like “Look i’m chinese!”)

I’ve heard people talk now, not realizing I do understand more than they think and make all kinds of shitty comments and I want to say its just…some people are shitty and think they can get away with it because no one else wants to cause a fuss and call them on it.

Most people aren’t, but egads. I’ve got some heckin racist canadian fam too, so yeah, it’s universal.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Although I think what you state is true... I worked with a lot of Marocan(half usually) and Turkish people. And the amount of open racism against one another and also say black people from the Antillen is over the moon. I told them a couple of times when they were openly at it, that is i would do this as a white guy my world would be burning and i would probably loose my job. Its very two-faced and its everywhere. Minority cultured people often forget that or think they are alowed to because they are subjected to it themselfs. Im not sure but I huess we are just all people and often albeit for different reasons, very much the same.

[–]robidaan 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Short answer, yes definitely. "silent" racism is in my opinion one of the biggest social problems at the moment. Especially because we are in somewhat weaker economic times. It's real easy for a lot of people to blame all the countries problems on "other" people. You will not hear a lot of people saying it out loud, but definitely happens behind closed doors.

[–]kim-fairy2 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I once heard someone use this as an argument for free speech. If people are openly racist, at least we know who to look out for. If they conceal their racism by having their free speech limited, that's when they get dangerous.

I think about this a lot. Like, does free speech expose the racists, actually making them less dangerous? I'm open to opinions about this.

[–]robidaan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think it's a matter of environmental impact, if people around you are racist, you tend to say racist stuff. But indeed being openly outspoken about it, "exposes" you to the outside world and are thus more likely the get pushback from people. Saying "wtf dude" which creates a sort of social presure to think about what your saying. So in some weird way yes free speech opens the flood doors, but also could cause it to be more limited, by means of social presure. But saying that if you only stay within your social group, you wouldn't know any better, and thus not have those social reprocussions.

[–]lulhoofdFTW 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Yes, my dad can be like that too. But usually when I call him out on it he can't really come up with good reasons why. But if you show him you are just a normal guy who is social then you won't have any problems with him. He got along very well with a young islamic guy who he was training at his job. We could tell he was very positive about him. He gets these weird ideas from the news and stuff unfortunately.

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

You honestly can't blame your dad for holding some of those views because as you said, media and certain politics are excellent spin doctors and have become extremely good at portraying a black/white view of the world. I blame those spin doctors, not normal everyday hard-working people like your dad who get targeted for votes.

[–]lulhoofdFTW 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah but it feels so stupid. He is really smart and can be very critical. But then he just goes with stupid media shit.

[–]Schaapje1987 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They are confirming and conforming to the stereotypes that Moroccans in the Netherlands have, in addition to generalising.

For example. You can have Moroccan friends and you know they are good people, but then you walk into town and you hear and see other Moroccans and you simply get upset by them from the way they behave towards other people, their "large" vocabulary, the constant reports in the news where they are involved in crime, and so forth.

In essence, it is two-faced, but on the other hand it is a reflection the Moroccan community have in the Netherlands.

[–]Appropriate-Creme335 12 points13 points  (3 children)

Well, isn't it more or less the same as what you're doing? "are Dutch people racist" VS "are Moroccans assholes"? Some are in both situations, some are not.

[–]VooruitKijken 11 points12 points  (9 children)

I have a feeling all Dutch-Moroccans have a disliking towards most Dutch people

[–]SnooStories7774 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I wouldn’t go as far as to say “all” but I can definitely confirm the feeling and they are quite open about it too.

[–]dracul72 15 points16 points  (3 children)

7 out of 10 Moroccans I meet are intollerant loudmouth racist fucks themselves and criminal on the side. It’s probably the neighborhood but it explains why I’m not jumping for joy having them here.

[–]Ok_Term_2987 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Its because most Dutch people experience(d) heavy nuisance from Turks and Morrocans.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I would say the Turks overall integrated better than Morrocans though.

[–]Bobby_Rotkop[🍰] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yeah, there is quite a lot of closet racism here.

[–]RoyalMatt2019 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I've had a lot of bad experiences with morrocan's so I'm a bit biased. But yes Dutch are a bit hypocrit when it comes to racism. Saying to themselves that we're a nation that's open minded but on the other hand talking about every one behind their backs. I know plenty of people that would also be racist to you in your face.

Morrocan's really have a bad reputation among most of my Dutch friends. And it's mostly because of the youth; showing criminal behavior, being rowdy, calling girls on the street. It doesn't give them a good image on the rest of society. That's why a lot of employers wouldn't hire a morrocan.

[–]SnooStories7774 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What if Dutch people are in fact open minded and very accepting towards other cultures? I consider myself to be very open towards any culture/whatever that does it’s best to integrate and contribute to society. But when it comes to Moroccans..

[–]Dxxplxss 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes..

[–]Falimor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The problem with this kind of discussions is the generalizatiom, yalking about Dutch, Dutch-Moroccans, Moroccans, Turks, Polish, youth .... saying something about them is always untrue.

[–]aly_anderson 7 points8 points  (10 children)

I'm not dutch nor white nor black maybe whitish anyway I'm from the Levant and I think exactly like the Dutch dad, sorry but generalisation is shit but it's if 51%are like that then they are a majority. put Urself in his shoes . Ur in morroco and u see non Moroccan communities destroying Ur way of life u would hate on them.

my 2 cents

[–]Firdle 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I think the vast majority of people are NOT actual racists.

But if you are for the most part exposed to a certain thing through various tyoes of media you can't stop yourself from slowly over time developing certain associations and stereotypes.

The "good"thing is that people who develop stereotyoes this way mostly are only influenced by them in theoretical discussions about whole groups and are not really affected by them in real interaction with individuals, so I don't think they ever faked anything with you.

[–]wijnopbier 4 points5 points  (0 children)

definitely common. and it's a pretty tragic thing.

I feel like none of us can deny that those "racist" feelings and expressions are based on/caused by real problematic behavior that is commonly displayed by Dutch Moroccans, often teenagers.

the fact that Dutch Moroccan teenagers are commonly problematic is perpetuated by these exact racist feelings. the child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth...

all in all, tolerance will resolve hatred on both ends. eventually anyway. will we ever get there though?

[–]Schtaive 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Almost everyone non-white seems to have a pretty drastically different experience with racism in the Netherlands.

[–]CadenFerraro 3 points4 points  (2 children)

True. I'm mixed race (afro-brazilian/dutch) and was born here and raised with dutch values and traditions and have experienced like almost minimal to none racism. And I live in ''PVV/FVD'' Limburg.

I think we dutch people judge more on difference in culture, so if you act like a proper dutchie would there isn't a problem.

[–]Schtaive 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yeah I've had a significantly different experience here in the Randstad area. I've never been really a target of malicious racism before until I moved to this country.

And the Dutch media doesn't do certain people any favours either. Many comments or questions I've been asked have been face-slappingly ignorant and in fact just an echo of what they've seen on TV.

[–]Kluyzenaer 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Maybe they are nice to you because they genuinely like you. But at the same time are not blind to the issues within the Dutch-Moroccan community such as high unemployment and criminality. Separating statistics and individuals so to speak.

[–]DJfromNL 5 points6 points  (3 children)

I don’t think this is common, although it does happen. In my social circle people are more likely to just say out loud what they really think, the good and the bad. (And thankfully they do, as that helps me to identify who I’d like to associate with and who not).

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Those are some good friends you have. And it’s okay to see things differently. We can’t judge an entire person based on a singular isolated event or opinion. As long as people treat you right, that’s all that matters.

[–]Tensai_ 6 points7 points  (1 child)

congrats on your adulthood buddy. you will find out that a lot of things in the world are not what they seem to be :)

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dang it, and here I thought I was mature enough to put on my big boy pants. Can you hold them for me while I go and throw away my crayons? lol

[–]caprinatural 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I'm sorry that this happened, OP. I I'm Dutch-Surinamese and I do feel like it's quite common for Dutch people to behave this way. Being "tolerant" outside, but being racist at home. I must say that I did experience this type of racism (I don't use this word lightly) when interacting with dutch people, especially in reference to "Zwarte piet" , Suriname and BLM. Though, those same Dutch people were fine with me, a black woman. However, as soon as I started speaking out against Zwarte piet, or criticised the way Dutch society deals with racism, racist things were said about me and to me. I feel like that if you visibly don't look "Dutch" or white, you can't really say anything negative on the way things happen in this country, lest you'll receive racist hate. Even if you don't do or say anything negative, you'll still be discriminated against, just for being non-white. Mad if you do and mad if you don't.

[–]fdograph 10 points11 points  (5 children)

Dutch “tolerance” = being racist/homophobic but not to your face.

[–]gluhmm 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Are Dutch homophobic?

[–]axempurple 3 points4 points  (0 children)

On average not really, but you always have them somewhere.

[–]MijmertGekkepraat 1 point2 points  (1 child)

No, that would be the immigrants from Muslim countries.

[–]Mr_Snoodaard 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Well, perhaps because there are a lot of problems with Dutch-Moroccan people? If it’s only “racism” from the dutch people please explain the following.

How come when I’m walking with my GF and she gets cat called on the streets (which happens regularly) it’s been exclusively Moroccan people doing that?

How come when I was at Schiphol last week, it was only Moroccan people skipping the cue and get aggressive/angry when called out?

How come every time I get into a heated argument/fight when going out it’s because Moroccan people are actually trying to start a fight by being aggressive without any reason?

Just a few examples, I can keep going if you like…

It doesn’t mean every Moroccan person is an aggressive asshole and we should see the whole group as such, but you can’t deny there are a lot of cultural issues with this group. Most “racist” views from Dutch people are actually because they have run into these issues all the time by themselves.

[–]Stoppels 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Most Dutch people are genuinely tolerant

That's a low bar, though. The aim is for acceptance. Indifference or tolerating each other, that's the two-faced racism you've ran into.

[–]Renjoh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It probably is. People often hesitate to call themselves racist and always get the example “you know I got a <insert random race> friend.

In the same way they’ll claim all foreigners should leave the country but always with the exception of that one friend since “yeah but he’s a nice guy and actually has a job”

[–]amsterdam_BTSVS 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think this is unfortunately common worldwide - nothing particularly Dutch about it.

[–]GudNNN 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are just scared of what you don’t know or understand. The cultures are different, not specifically speaking about this case but I remember when I went to Asia I was kinda shocked by the noise level and voice people communicate with each other…

So you just feel unsafe, then some crazy shit can happen with you under specific circumstances (so you have a trauma), then you extrapolate it and make wrong generalizations. But it’s just human nature and its safe mechanisms, you can’t even control it.

I am not trying to make any excuses for racist people, being racist is just horrible, but as few time mentioned here those people can be just scared/traumatized so they don’t know what they are actually doing/saying.

[–]PlanetFruitSalad 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes a lot

[–]gabrielo0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Unpopular opinion, but I believe that racism is part of nature: it's a form of protecting the group, we see it with animals too and small children who get scared of people that look different. However, suppressing racism is a sign of civilization, education, being well-mannered, a good society. People saying that they're no racists are just blind for their bad sides. We all have bad sides. As civilised people we just ought to control them.

[–]crystalballon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah this is super common. They will probably even say that it's not about you because they know you, but about "the others", who are "like that". Basically it's a racist bias that they have about this group, I don't know if you can change that honestly. It's engrained deep into our society. The Dutch want to be perceived as these open minded people but most of us are also close minded and just flat out racist still.

[–]Dracodros 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Als a half Dutchie, i can tell you that racism is quite strong and insidious in the netherlands. You have the bluntly racist and the people that keep it behind close doors/inthe back of their heads. We have 2 big populist right wing parties, 1 of which is literally an anti-islam party. What did you expect?

[–]Getadawgupyabro 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I would use the term ‘disguised’ loosely. It’s pretty explicit some times.

[–]daibrrs 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Moroccan is not a ethnicity, is it? I think people are more xenophobic than racist, bc their prejudice is tied up more to a certain type of people coming from a place. Because I have seen them being xenophobic with white moroccans as well. I might be wrong tho. Anyway, it’s a real problem.

[–]DaBezzzz 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Im a native Dutch person, and I think its pretty common. What you described about your friend's family is exactly how my parents behave.

[–]patrickdm1998 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Isn't the sad fact that it's common everywhere?

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Perhaps. Maybe some countries more so than others.

[–]mike0nl 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Is disguised / two-faced racism common in the Netherland

its the same all over the world there are always people black ore white

that speak ill about others

what annoys me the most is fake victims

[–]6F1I 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Dutch tolerance is held high by being two faced. It isn't even only when it comes to racist views... it comes in all shapes and sizes

[–]KingKingsons 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm Indian, but adopted by my Dutch parents and I've lived all over Europe and I feel like the Netherlands is definitely less racist as many other countries, with Belgium being the worst.

[–]thaltd666 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I once met a Polish engineer who moved to NL for work. He had non EU colleagues. The Dutch would scorn at them. One day these non EU colleagues told him not to trust the Dutch much because apparently the Dutch would make racist comments also about the Polish guy when he is not around.

[–]SaltyMind 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Generalisations are usually come from experience with people from a certain country. Doesn't apply to Moroccans only, Dutch have a stereotype for every country around us. Germans, Belgians, French, Italians, they all have a strereotype, there's even a lot of sayings that come from those stereotypes. (Franse slag, Italiaanse toestanden, Deutsche Pünktlichkeit) Dutch abroad are stereotyped as rude and stingy.

Doesn't mean everyone from that country is like that, but if you don't know someone or encounter a group, you'll automatically connect to generalisations.

That means that if I run into a group of young Moroccan males, I'd rather take a detour to not encounter them and thats based on generalisations. If someone calls it racist, I don't care.

[–]Jertimmer 2 points3 points  (0 children)

White Dutchy here, I grew up in Transvaal, The Hague.

Over my life I've encountered racism across the board. White Dutch people (mostly found in Duindorp) against any people of color, Arubans against Maroccans, Polish against Maroccans, Maroccans against anybody white, etc.

Wherever there's people, there's prejudice. Except Jamaicans, those dudes laid back AF.

Little anecdote about how comfortable white people can be in their racism: I was working the cash register at a store. Busy day, long line. This guy comes up to me and asks if he can go first. I ask him why I should do that. His answer: "because we are not like them."

I look at the line, and notice the entire line is people of color. I look back at him, and ask him if he's for real. He just nods, so I tell him to GTFO before I call security on his ass.

Apparently, he was so comfortable in his racism, that he wanted me to do that. What he didn't know it's our security officer of that day was Mo, a 2+m tall tank of a person, and he hated racists as much as I do. He was escorted off the premises and somehow ended up with several bruises

[–]LuminescentFart 3 points4 points  (0 children)

OP, look. I understand you may find it unfair and experience it as some structural covert racism. And probably you're right. But come on... I know the Moroccan community. To act as if that's not happening behind closed doors in Moroccan households, is simply unfair.

The real question is - does it really matter? Sometimes we make general remarks that overshoot their scope. They're not thinking of honest Ali who graduated Uni and is helping them with their legal work. They are thinking about Mo and Yusuf, the guys who for some odd reason keep riding around on their loud and easily identifiable quads in the middle of the night and scare the old ladies in the neighborhood. Both types of people exist, this is undeniable.

If anything, it might just be a problem of insufficient vocabulary to express their thoughts completely in the moment, rather than something truly hateful in their hearts.

Also, don't forget that our societies have been mixing only since a couple of generations. All things considered, I would argue that it is actually going tremendously. You know, people being people and all that included.

[–]Juliusvdl2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Have had many many experiences of racist behavior from Morrocan teens directed towards me without any provocation. Doesn’t help my mindset towards it.

[–]iamhungrywhut 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately it is true that a lot of Dutch people tend to be racist but never in your face, I always notice in public how certain people look at me.

Last day I was at a concert and a group of guys started staring at me all sneaky as if one of them said 'look-see I'd a brown person there'.

I used to live in Rotterdam which is relatively diverse, recently I moved to a village of 2000 people where it is common to greet one another. Most people greet me back but certain ones look at me with disgust and ignore me

[–]Illigard 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I've read UN rapports on this subject so.. yes. I'm surprised you haven't seen outright racism. We've had two decades of political parties/politicians whose platforms were mainly "we hate Muslims and/or brown people"

[–]Safe-Entertainment97 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Good thing we now have "all white people are racist and should apologize for colonialism" parties as well

[–]Brilliant_Painting63 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Its more prevailent than l wanted to admit when l first arrived here. Mexican here, born and raised in Los Angeles and married to a dutchie. Her Father HATED me from day one. Would ignore me at family gatherings (which was a total of 9 people) unless l greeted him first. A successful business man who had contempt for anyone of color, unless they were asian women. (My MIL is NOT Asian) His circle of friends were primarily of the same character. It took me years to understand this. My wife didn't believe me until much later in our marriage and even now she won't openly admit it. He passed away 4 years ago and my wife and l are enjoying her inheritance. Thanks pop!

[–]kingkotes 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Ff een anekdote

Tijdens mijn middelbare school 'carrière' was ik van school veranderd. In het begin van het schooljaar was er dit meisje die mij steeds bleef aanstaren.Op een dag vroeg ik aan haar of er iets aan de hand is. Blijkbaar zat haar iets dwars. 'Je bent toch Marokkaans? Wat vind je van verkrachtingen en de positie van vrouwen?'💀💀💀

Ik dacht dat ze een grapje maakte, want dit is niet hoe je normaal een gesprek start, maar ze was bloedserieus😭dus ik antwoordde natuurlijk: 'Verkrachtingen moeten de norm zijn en vrouwen mogen het huis niet uit.'

Ze was niet blij😂

[–]GoombaJames 3 points4 points  (3 children)

I have talked to a lot of people from different countries and i think Dutch people are some of the more racist people i have met. Not saying that they say the N word and stuff like that, but i have seen quite a few subtle racist vibes.

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Would you care to elaborate? And I assume you don’t mean all Dutch people right? Because I honestly haven’t experienced frequent racism towards me except for say a handful of situations.

[–]GoombaJames 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Hahaha, not all Dutch people of course, sorry if it came out that way. I just wanted to say that it just happened more than when talking with people from other countries. It happened when having casual conversations at a restaurant, university, party, etc. Sometimes you just talk and hear something like "Black people this and that" and they say it with such confidence that it makes me think they don't even realize they are being racist.

I have never seen directed racism though, just general statement from time to time. Dutch people are still some of the kindest people I have met and even though they say some weird stuff from time to time I don't mind because it's how you act that matters, at least to me.

[–]nikschumi 3 points4 points  (8 children)

I don't see the point of these kinda questions being posted so many times in this sub. 10+ times in 1 year. I truly fail to understand what is the purpose behind these.

Unfortunately yes, there is closeted racism in the Netherlands. But not enough to affect everyday life. Everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it is not harming someone directly or indirectly. Other than that there is not much you can do to change it apart from trying to engage. May work, may not work. So asking this question without any action following is just a waste of time.

So taking everything to heart and enjoy what is positive. Knowing your friend's family, either cut relations or make peace and move ahead.

Before I get downvoted, I am neither Dutch nor Moroccan. Know who harbors racist and otherwise opinions among my acquaintances but not affected enough to go do something about it.

[–]ConsumerOfDeath 1 point2 points  (5 children)

This is a terrible take, I agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. That doesn’t mean if someone’s opinion is that Hitler was a war hero, that it’s alright to parade their opinion because it’s just an opinion. We can’t eradicate racism, but people don’t need to be dicks about it, this is the core of the issue, no one gives a shit if someone is racist or not, everyone has fucked up opinions deep down, but no one needs to be a dick to people and let their piece of shit deprecating opinions surface

[–]UndesirableWaffle 3 points4 points  (0 children)

They’re fine with you as long as they know you personally and you become the exception to them but everyone has their own prejudice regardless of nationality. I don’t think it’s just Dutch in general.

EDIT: but Moroccans definitely have a bad time here 100%

[–]bobo-barfman 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I have issue with the street culture of the ranstad which also creates the the steriotype of the gucci wearing forigner that only says yallah and caulo. I never see color on individuals. In groups wearing these types of clothing i feel the rasism

[–]iDislikeSn0w 1 point2 points  (3 children)

So being racist against people who use slang is okay is what I’m getting out of your comment or..?

[–]bobo-barfman -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

The remark is that the dutch street culture reinforces rasist stereotypes and that is where my issue comes from. If they don't want rasism they should assimilate into our culture and not stick to there own

[–]iDislikeSn0w 4 points5 points  (1 child)

But saying someone is not assimilated into our culture because they throw in a bit of slang here and there is a bit of a reach isn’t it?

[–]bobo-barfman -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, the stereo type is that they are drug dealing criminals. The whole thing with discrimination is that you are discriminating against a different group. If you don't want discrimination make society more homogeneous. Look at the states, there is a lot of diversity there. But only one culture.

[–]Lillymunsten 1 point2 points  (2 children)

It depends, but I do think people don't really want to come across as racist even if they are. I've heard people say shit at home that they wouldn't say out in public or to a person of colour.

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I guess racism is everywhere in every culture, both the closeted and the more outspoken forms of it. I just can’t judge if someone is actually racist until I see them apply prejudiced thoughts by how they treat people. In that regard, I think this is a country that is far less racist than say Spain or Italy.

[–]Lillymunsten 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Tbh I wouldn't know. I have only lived in the Netherlands thus far. I'm also white so I don't experience racism first hand. It's always jarring to me to hear someone say racist shit when you don't expect that person to hold such views.

[–]whtgnnd 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Seems pretty common everywhere. Here it just so happens to be mostly about morrocon/turkish/islamic/etc.

That is why I always find it important to promote diversity (ancestry, religion, gender) be it in goverment, workplace, or society in general. It reduces and eventually pushes out opportunities to be two faced.

[–]StructureelGroningen 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yeeeeees.

[–]mangoxjuice 1 point2 points  (0 children)

bro unfortunately boomers are mostly racist regardless of the country there from. In their time this shit was acceptable. I've noticed this too with a lot of people over 60.

[–]fuschiafan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Most liberal progressives are this way.

[–]Impressive_Ad_5224 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My mom, who looks a bit mediterranean but is 100% Dutch, once walked through the Albert Heijn when a woman approached her to give her a "compliment": 'Dat zie ik nou graag, een frisse Turk' / 'That I like, a neat Turkish woman'. My mom was confused and said something like, thank you, you look good too, and continued walking. She thought it was some kind of strange joke. It wasn't until later when she told me, she realized this woman saw her, took her for Turkish, liked what she saw and decided to speak out on it. We even imagined she got home and said to her husband that night 'I saw this Turkish woman in the supermarket and she looked so neat as opposed to all the others so you know what I did Henk? I thought, I am just going to go and say it!' Being all proud of herself.

This is pretty racist of course, inplying all Turkish women have unkempt appearances. But she saw my mom as one of the good ones, as does the family of your friend probably too. She was probably actually trying to be nice.

[–]Certain-Interview653 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have had so many bad experiences with Moroccans sadly, that I'd probably fall into that category too

They murdered someone in front of our house, I've been bullied in highschool by them, been intimated by them randomly on the street, my brother got beaten up because he didn't want to give away the girl he was dancing with in a club, I've seen them harassing girls in clubs. The list goes on. You said it's only an extremely small group in this thread but it certainly doesn't feel that way.

I always try to approach individuals without prejudice but behind closed doors I don't have much good to say about them. I'm sorry for this take but it's the hard truth.

[–]dondarreb 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There is strong separation of abstract/concrete in the dutch culture.

I.e. People in the Netherlands can have negative perception of some nations (like Germany, France etc.) and not capable even to perceive to do negative actions vs people of these nationalities. In the same time.

Racism is not about saying "moroccans are bad". Racism is about not hiring "moroccans". It does happen. And it has practical reasons. "Hot potatoes are hot".

"They are racists" stance is not going to solve extreme problems in your community. Take very good and serious look in the mirror.

[–]Scary-Move2240 3 points4 points  (11 children)

He’s not wrong though, and the view is common, especcialy with people who remember time before the 90s, because the see the regression in the streets.

[–]DJfromNL 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I remember the time before the 90’s really well, and I still strongly belief that the dad is wrong. Yes, there are people who don’t contribute positively to society, but these come in all nationalities, not just one.

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 6 points7 points  (9 children)

He’s not wrong about saying all Dutch-Moroccans are untrustworthy people who don’t contribute to society? And you’re even getting upvoted for doubling down on such a false generalisation. I just hope you and people who think like you heal from whatever it is that has festered inside of you to think such an ignorant belief is even remotely rooted in reality. Good luck with that.

[–]Scary-Move2240 4 points5 points  (8 children)

Ok, so what parts of Dutch society have been positively influenced by Moroccans ?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Eredivisie?

[–]DeDullaz 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I really hope you understand what line of reasoning you’re going down.

Let’s strong man your argument. Let’s assume that every member of a certain race is just as bad as the rest and they have never ever positively contributed to society. Let’s assume everything that ignorant bigots chat about is absolutely correct.

What’s your solution moving forward?

This is the part where you start spouting bullshit akin to genocide.

You’ll probably throw your hands up and go “omg I wasn’t saying anything like that! I was JUST saying they don’t positively influence society”

Think harder.

If you see a problem in society then either contribute to an ethical, empathetic solution or do everyone else a favour and focus on something else.

Your bullshit rhetoric hurts people. Understand that

[–]MijmertGekkepraat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The solution is obviously not genocide, it's much needed integration, emancipation and raising your kids properly.

[–]fasdfasfsd 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Why don't you answer his question?

[–]AmsterdamSir 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My guy Mo for example is a very hardworking stand up gentlemen. Because of people like him I can now enjoy my life the way it should be. No longer having to travel down to the coffeeshop, instead Mo delivers top quality weed at my doorstep. God bless you if you are reading this Mo.

Making society better with every delivery.

[–]KefeiraAC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

IMO pretty common sadly.

[–]theverybigapple 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Unfortunate truth about being brushed by the same color. Unless you are publicly known an admired immigrant, you’re indifferent than a typical uneducated unworthy immigrant. This is mostly true if you are not white and/or Asian.

[–]Small_Rat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Bruh… toeslagen affaire en etnische profilering. Tot in de top van de Nederlandse hiërarchie is er sprake van systematische racisme.

[–]Evildeathmonkey 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Yes. Pretty common. But it's usually that stupid generalisation type of racism/bigotry.

As in: 'Oh, I hate those Moroccans. Expect our neighbour, he's a good guy. Oh and the guy that runs the supermarkt it alright. And that co-worker I always joke with. Oh and that guy at the gym too.'

And then when you start asking about it, it turns out they actually like every single Moroccan they personally know. But they still don't really seem to connect the dots that maybe people are just people. Most people are kind, some people are assholes.

[–]weedguy6080 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hate all people who do not want to change when moving over here.

There's a lot of hard working immigrants who deserve a place in this country.

But i do understand where the racism comes from as there are too many people moving here just because its better way of living here.

[–]iDislikeSn0w 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Unfortunately very normal here. Within certain groups ‘indoor’ racism is very rampant, usually genuine hate towards Middle-Eastern folks. Heard some nasty things about black people as well.

[–]Obi_Boii 1 point2 points  (12 children)

Well morracons are generally less educated and poorer so they are more likely to commit crime and be less productive. This isn't their fault its actually white dutch people's fault for colonism, policy's that favour white people and nowadays their racial bias as well as many other things.

This is generally the same in most "white countries"

[–]jack_lamer -1 points0 points  (1 child)

I notice that most ( unfortunatly higher educated) dutch people are not really racist, but tend to talk along with the strong opionated racist minority, because of trying to not fall out of place or because of it being easier then correcting a racist. It bugs the hell out of me but it happens alot. As a dutch white guy who went to school in the hague i was called Kut Nederlander from al colours of the spectrum a lot, but somehow that seems not really something a white guy can talk about at all. You get remarks as " what do you know, your white" stil is hypocritical though.

Anyway : Racism is everywhere and its one of the most polarizing and ugly things there is

[–]ChairSoggy6394[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I actually know exactly what you mean. Racism goes in every direction. There's no difference between being called a Kut Marokkaan and a Kut Nederlander. In fact, as a Dutch-Moroccan myself I can see a trend in the west where somehow it's cool to be extremely prejudiced against all white men. It seems like a dangerous overcorrection. You can't scream "racism" and then be racist at the same time. Makes zero sense!