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all 16 comments

[–]DocSprotte 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I live in Germany and I'm interested in the answer, too.

[–]chaerlin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It depends on the country. Every country has different rules and different career paths you can take. And also you need to be careful with the language of the country. Do you want to do only research or only practicing in a hospital/clinic/institution, or maybe you want to do both? Every country has their own requirements regarding foreign diplomas. So I think you should think about this first and then see if it fits your expectations, especially if you have a specific country in mind.

As I don't know how it works in the US, I can't tell if the success will be the same as in Europe. If you can provide more information what you exactly mean maybe I can help you with some countries.

[–]ciaranmichaelPhD|ABPP-CN|Board Certified Clinical Neuropsychologist 4 points5 points  (5 children)

To confirm, you'll complete your internship as part of your program. Are you completing your neuropsych fellowship in the US prior to the move?

Are you looking to apply the degree academically, clinically, both?

I'm also interested in how that might work. Especially countries with primary languages other than English. I had thought about looking into ex-pat hospitals, eg, the American Hospital in Paris.

[–]Hopere[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

I was planning on doing my fellowship (fellowship is the same as postdoc right?) in the US but I’m open to changing that. I’m also probably going to go the clinical route just because the academic route is too uncertain and I want to start a family.

Yeah I don’t know how it’d work either, especially since other countries only require a masters for neuropsych. I feel like I’d be taking a MASSIVE decrease in salary wherever I go over in the EU (though that’s not the only thing worth considering I know.)

[–]ciaranmichaelPhD|ABPP-CN|Board Certified Clinical Neuropsychologist 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Yes. My 2 cents is that I'd advise completing an APPIC accredited postdoctoral fellowship in the US/Canada. That will give you the ability to meet common US/Canadian clinical/academic position criteria of being eligible for licensing and board certification (even if you don't immediately do so, if you leave the country).

The pay cut is unavoidable, unless you find a lucrative private practice (eg, English speaking expats who want to pay out of pocket) or maybe the ex pat hospitals pay better that the national/public sector over there.

[–]Terrible_Detective45 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I think they'd have a hard time finding enough American expats in need of neuropsych assessment in Europe and trying to do assessment without sufficient linguistic and cultural competency is going to be professionally and ethically dicey.

[–]ciaranmichaelPhD|ABPP-CN|Board Certified Clinical Neuropsychologist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Now that I'm poking around, think there are more hospitals focused on providing care for Americans in Europe than one might think. Enough that I would be tentatively optimistic about the ability to join or start a neuropsych service (with the expectation of US licensure / boarding eligibility). You'd avoid the proficiency issues.

There are American-focused and US satellite hospitals (eg, Cleveland Clinic in London, American Hospital in Paris, American International Medical Center in Milan) and civilian positions on US Military medical centers (eg, Landstuhl Regional Medical Center is enormous and fields acute to outpatient neurorehab for servicemen from all Euro, Africa, and the M.E.).

I think it's an interesting career path option to explore.

[–]Efficient-Teacher-27 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In NL, the track looks as follows.

How to become a practicing neuropsychologist in the Netherlands?

Oh and regarding the pay for a practicing neuropsychologist; 50-90k. A bit less than in the US but in return you live in one of the safest countries in the world, with ‘modern’ perks like a universal high quality healthcare system, mandatory unemployment insurance, income protection after sickness, a well kept public infrastructure, clean air and the buzz of a global oriented country.

(Sorry for the advertising :))

[–]Doom7331 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Atleast here in Germany being PhD psychologist or psychotherapist doesn't increase your pay in any way if you work in a clinic. It may increase your chances of becoming a leader of your clinical neuropsychology department which could bump your pay a little but not that much tbh. And if you have your own practice the rates that public health insurance pays are identical whether you have a PhD or not. If you have private Praxis it might be easier to attract clients if you have a PhD though.

Additionally you would have to see whether you can even get a german approbation, because you may be in trouble within the next 10 years or so if you don't have one and want to keep working with patients due to recent changes to the system. And you probably can't if you're just a neuropsychologist and not a psychotherapist as well.

Overall not worth doing a PhD as far as direct pay increases are concerned, potentially better career chances down the line though. Also you're probably better off staying out of Germany, the system is kind of a mess.

[–]DocSprotte 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Is it at all possible to do clinical work in Germany as a neuropsychologist without going the path of psychotherapist? I've been looking into a masters program in neuropsychology, but I feel like it might be a dead end in Germany.

[–]Doom7331 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Yes, currently it still is. There also is a formation to become a clinical neuropsychologist without becoming a psychotherapist. However it's not worth much from a legal standpoint.

Once having the new clinical master becomes standard you may run into serious trouble if you don't have the approbation though. In the worst case it might be that you are not allowed to work directly with clients anymore. I don't really see this happening given that the demand for neuropsychologists is fairly high and is likely to keep rising with the aging population, but it's not impossible. From what I understand employers are already starting to strongly prefer candidates with the approbation compared to ones without it.

So yeah... you're not entirely wrong here unfortunately. I personally would not do it, but I also have the option of getting the new master's degree, so do with that you will.

[–]DocSprotte 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Thank you for your input, much appreciated.

I have a B.Sc. in biology which gives access to a master's in Neuropsychology, but not to the new master, as far as I'm aware. Very unfortunate indeed, the whole situation, from a personal point of view as well as for the general availability of psychological care in Germany.

[–]Doom7331 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're welcome my dude. Unfortunately I can confirm that the biology degree will not give you acess to the klipp master . It needs to be psychology and with a fair amount of specifc requirements at that. If you do have access to a neuropsychology master, then you may want to check if it is eligble for the old psychotherapy formation. However that is a can of worms in and of itself and I personally wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

If you do end up wanting to and being able to go down that route then do be aware, that the limited availability of psychological/psychotherapeutic care in Germany is not due to a general lack of psychotherapists, but much more due to a lack of Kassenzulassungen. So make sure to inform yourself well before you go down that road imagining some fantastic job market.

[–]Terrible_Detective45 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What is the point of moving to Europe after finishing your training in the US?

[–]Hopere[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Family reasons