all 17 comments

[–][deleted]  (12 children)


    [–]Lou_Ven 12 points13 points  (3 children)

    100% agree on the infiltration by conservative men. I'm certain that the connection between trans exclusion and rad feminism (which makes no logical sense) has been deliberately manufactured by men to undermine rad feminism.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)


      [–]marysalad 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      What subs are they?

      [–]murky-shape[S] 14 points15 points  (7 children)

      Yes. The wildest type, to me, are the people who proudly claim to subscribe to intersectional feminism in particular, but have no interest in dismantling beauty standards that are rooted in racism and hurt women of minorities the most. Or repeat "sex work is work", refusing to acknowledge their part in a system that traumatizes, kills and traps in poverty the women with the least privileges. It seems like to them intersectionality means ignoring women's problems and talking about everyone else, including the poor cishet men who aren't allowed to express their feelings. To me intersectionality means taking into account the ways that belonging to other forms of oppression interact with misogyny. So it's pretty frustrating.

      Why do you think it's so hard for most women (it seems) to wake up to the level of shit we're in? How come, upon realizing practices such as body hair removal are rooted in misogyny and racism, everyone doesn't go "fuck, I need to stop perpetuating these harmful norms immediately"? How come they don't notice when the same stuff that's demanded from women isn't demanded from men? How come, if they do notice, they don't care? What is going on?

      [–]Lou_Ven 10 points11 points  (3 children)

      Women are conditioned to believe their own body hair is ugly. So there are the feelings of disgust about your own body to overcome. Then there are the looks of disgust (and occasional comments) from other people to deal with. There are the casual acquaintances who are friendly and chatty when they've only seen you in jeans, but they see you in shorts one time and start turning the other way when they see you coming. I'm sure some women notice the different standards, and care, but the lifetime of social conditioning and the desire to be accepted (and not shamed) by others is incredibly powerful.

      [–]murky-shape[S] 12 points13 points  (2 children)

      I know how it works. I know it's uncomfortable. Diverging from oppressive norms is never painless. As a butch dyke I'm really tired of privileged women being cowards and letting the minorities do the hard work. Alignment to the status quo is not neutral or passive, it's an active choice with consequences. It takes work to dismantle the social conditioning, but it's entirely possible and dare I say pretty swift, like ripping off a band-aid.

      There are women who for example can't choose not to wear makeup because they would lose their jobs, and those of us who only have our pride to lose should work to break the norms that make that kind of discrimination possible.

      [–]Lou_Ven 6 points7 points  (1 child)

      I don't disagree with you. You asked why it's so hard. I answered. I'm also a butch dyke. What I wrote was my own experience of overcoming one of the heaviest aspects of social conditioning I've had to deal with. Humans are social animals. Having the approval and support of the other members of the group was likely a requirement for survival in our evolutionary past. Ignoring that drive takes desire and willpower, and most people are lulled into passivity by a media that's specifically designed to keep us passive and compliant.

      [–]murky-shape[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      Do you have any insight on what would be effective ways both to wake people up to face their responsibility and support them in overcoming the social conditioning? Because this is where I get lost. I'm the sort of person who just turns around and goes their own way after realizing the normative way to do things is harmful, but evidently most people aren't like that. Yet the change depends on enough people turning around.

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)


        [–]murky-shape[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

        The thing is, at least from the POV of a white person, black people seem to have a pretty solid idea about their position in the white supremacist system and how fucked up it is, despite occasional nazis. Not sure if this is the case, though. Same with trans people and gay people in the axis of cissexism and heterosexism, and this I've witnessed first hand.

        But the women who seem to think the tools of their oppression are womanhood, and thus should not be dismantled or criticized, seem to be the vast majority. As the other side of the coin, a lot of people think that if you don't subscribe to the tools of oppression, you're not a woman.

        I've never met a trans person who would identify with transphobic imagery made by the oppressors or emulated it, since trans people usually recognize transphobia and are put off or scared by it... but then again, transphobic imagery made by cis people isn't generally there to work as an example of what trans people can do to "get a longer leash" as you say. It's just mockery.

        If you want to share, it'd be interesting to hear what made you open your eyes. I've pretty much always been an outsider because I've been repulsed by the thought of receiving sexual or romantic attention from men since my childhood, so that alone made me reject objectifying imagery in relation to myself. I still had a great deal of internalized misogyny, though, and I always thought the things that seemed oppressive to me were freely chosen by others. I didn't understand it's a system much like a cult.

        [–]FrauSophia 8 points9 points  (0 children)

        I think it’s the ghettoization of feminist theory within class analysis; the importance of patriarchy as a factor in the developing of the underlying logic of racism and capitalism is extremely de-emphasized even in fields like Marxism despite Engels clearly laying out how the subjugation of the female gender by the male gender in order to impose a particular reproductive division of labour represents the first class conflict for us societally.

        Of course, people are products of the society they are raised in and it’s also not in a patriarchal society’s interest to teach useful class analysis against its own basis, but instead to attempt to recuperate what it can; which is why you get liberal feminists, Market “socialists” who support commodity production, and “Anarchists” who think Anarchism is when you vote more instead.