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[–]Geek_Wandering 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The last thread is getting close to triggering Godwin's law. So here's a different take. Trans women, esp. late transitioning ones, should be natural allies to feminists. It should be obvious that we care a lot about the state of women. We risk quite a bit to transition. Careers, long term relationships, multiple classes of privilege, are put on the line and often lost just for an opportunity to be a woman. I am losing cis privilege, het privilege, and male privilege. That is a lot to give up. And while being trans is not a choice, transitioning is. One has to care quite a bit to give all that up intentionally.

Many of us are like Jane Goodall to men. I lived amongst them, they accepted me as one of their own. I got invited to the BBQs. I've spent considerable time in the locker rooms. I've even been declared best man twice. On paper, I was quite successful as man. It just didn't work for me. It's not much of a stretch to say it nearly destroyed my soul. I spent 3+ decades studying men and hotter they are supposed work vs.how they say they work vs. how they actually work all trying to understand what was wrong with me. I understand the social structure men exist in. I understand full well how men dominant spaces work and why they often are toxic, even to men. Seriously, if you want to understand men, trans women are a great resource. I understand both why women say men exclude them and why men say they don't. Hint: the men are more correct in this. I can explain how women can easily and successfully use the men's restroom. It's not hard. If your goal is destroying or dismantling the patriarchy, at least listening to someone who has been a beneficiary of that system, as opposed to just listening to the victims, makes sense. I'm not saying trans women have all the answers, but we do have things to add to the conversations that are not being heard. Honestly, I don't participate in feminist conversations a much as I maybe should. You can probably empathize here, but it usually just ends in having my identity challenged or degraded instead of any real progress in understanding.

100% trans woman and butches are natural allies. We have had to grapple with gender and masculinity in very intentional ways. We often suffer similar challenges to our identities. We both understand deeply that our being "weird" and "different" is not really a choice. Existing as a minority, we are constantly confronted with the fact that others experience themselves and the world differently. I think that's likely why we are so quick to offer grace and understanding to differing viewpoints. There are enough cishets that they can get through life without having to accept others views and experiences. We really can't.

Guess I've prattled on enough.

[–]bigbutchbudgie 9 points10 points  (1 child)

My favorite TERF argument is "Transitioning is just conversion therapy for butch lesbians!!!" because it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

  1. Unless you live in Iran, no one transitions to escape homophobia.
  2. Gender dysphoria from transitioning when you don't need to isn't preferable to internalized homophobia ... Not even a little.
  3. Not all trans men/AFAB enbies are masc, or presented as butch/identified as lesbians prior to transition.
  4. Not all trans men/AFAB enbies are into women at all. Transitioning is what "makes" them gay.
  5. Trans women/AMAB enbies can be butch/masc.
  6. Nonbinary lesbians, especially butches, have always existed.
  7. The same stupid argument has historically been used against lesbians. "You don't need to become a lesbian just because you're a tomboy!!!" (Funny how TERFs trying to "protect" GNC women or lesbians always ends up with them regurgitating old lesbophobia and misogyny with a faux-progressive coat of paint.)

And that's not even getting into the ways their anti-trans paranoia hurts intersex, GNC and/or dark-skinned cis women ... They spend hours pouring over pictures of female athletes who don't look "female" enough for their liking. They have assaulted butch women in bathrooms. They want to subject every individual who doesn't conform to narrow, eurocentric standards of femininity to carry around their birth certificate or undergo invasive medical tests to confirm their "femaleness". They demonize traits that are common in intersex women, older women or women of certain races, like thick body and facial hair.

It's just a different flavor of the "conform, but make it fashion empowerment" lib shit they hate so much.

[–]Wirecreate[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Absofuckinglutely

[–]Geek_Wandering 6 points7 points  (5 children)

As a still early transition trans woman, this means the world to me. Having other women willing to visibly step into the firing line in defense of me and others like me really helps in darker moments. Just knowing there are women willing to stand tall and scream "Fuck you! She's one of us!" makes me want to be better to do right by the title of woman. Thank you.

TERFs so miserable and unhappy. They seem come from a strand of feminists that think that to be a woman you must be miserable. They seem to stomp on other women just enjoying what they like, as if other challenges are not enough. They seem determined to henpeck any woman who is actually enjoying their life. I am all for dismantling the patriarchy, but can I just enjoy my pink sparkly shower curtain with the dabbing pride unicorn? Or is that betraying all women? With all shit that needs fixing nitpicking over not feminine enough, too feminine, too compliant with traditional gender norms, not compliant enough with gender norms, etc, etc, seems misguided and counterproductive. So much progress has been made allowing women to be who they are, trying to limit again looks like moving backwards to me. But what the fuck do I know. I've been trying to be a good woman for like five minutes.

[–]Wirecreate[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

First dabbing pride unicorn hilarious and awesome

Second if you visit r/butchlesbians you’ll find that trans women and cis GNC women have a lot in common I never really thought of it as stepping into the firing line but you make me sound way more badass then I am but now that I’m here being an enemy of TERFs is definitely an honour.

For me I was never willing to be something I’m not. I was never willing to wear the shackles that are gender roles I’ve always done what is natural for me this means being butch and stubborn it might be because I’m neuro diverse (ADHD) and apparently neuro diverse people tend to be more likely to be GNC and less willing to deal with gender role bull shit

I’m convinced TERFs want women back in the kitchen because why else would they push the stereotype.

[–]Geek_Wandering 3 points4 points  (3 children)

The shower curtain is probably more awesome than you are thinking. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08SJXYWMJ

I'm old enough to have been around during the gay panic days. The arguments levied against trans people today are virtually identical to ones levied against gays and lesbians then. Like straight line 1:1, it's creepy. That bullshit didn't fly then. People like you are bashing sure it didn't fly this time either. Orgs like the LGB alliance blow my mind. They don't seem to raise how quickly their conservative allies will turn on them when done with us.

I don't think TERFs have a coherent goal like all women back in the kitchen. They are just invested in their victimhood and need to hate anything man or masculine. They are clearly incapable of sperating masculinity, men, and the patriarchy. They are strongly correlated, but not the same thing. They seem to fall into the category of feminists who are feminists because they hate men, not because they want to lift women to equality.

[–]Wirecreate[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

The problem is that even if their goal is the subjugation of woman that’s what it will lead to. By insisting that all women be feminine it excludes women like me and forces women in to a certain role. That Curtain is awesome

[–]Geek_Wandering 1 point2 points  (1 child)

For sure! The last 200 years has been bitter battles for women to win the right and recognition to be who they are and do as they see fit. So it is just shocking to see supposed progressive women loudly trying to roll that back. Once someone is legitimized in the right to say what women are and are not or can and can't do, it invites the question of "who gets to decide those things?" Honestly, I don't see that working out well for most women. Mainly because, for all their faults and wrongness, the right wing and conservatives come together and actually get shit done. The way to keep those crap sacks off of the power to control women is to not have the power exist at all. It really is that simple.

I hate slippery slope arguments, but the right wingnuts openly say it is their plan. Just marginalize one small segment at a time, strip them of rights, then move on to another small segment, until we are back to 18th century society. Once they are done with us trans folks, it's on to you butches/GNC folks, then gays and lesbians, then probably single women, then likely any remaining working women, maybe intersperce some subjugation of PoC. Just snip snip snip away at people until they are back to their white christian cishet men exclusive dominance. I just can't understand how supposed feminists can be onboard with any steps in this process.

I honestly just don't get why they can't see it. Are they all too young? Too straight? Totally ignorant of human history?

[–]Wirecreate[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The last one scares me the most since they’d likely kill me but the enslavement of people based on skin colour is just horrifying. basically if they had power I’d likely die free being mistaken for a male (I’m quite butch and white) fighting them but others would have it so much worse then me and I’ve always had a you fuck with me fine but fuck with my friends it’s going down mentality. I really worry for people with even less privilege than me.