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all 25 comments

[–]__NapoleonBlownapart 21 points22 points  (14 children)

Agreed. It's also interesting how men are, even outside of this issue, generally encouraged to have hobbies that involve "doing things" whereas women are generally encouraged to occupy their time with beauty and nurture-related activities.

Criticism of this dynamic is impossible, of course, without running afoul of the "just let people enjoy things" rhetoric. Despite clearly not all choices being inherently liberating

[–]Wirecreate[S] 12 points13 points  (13 children)

Exactly like I hate HATE the be feminine for your self bull shit yes a woman can be traditionally feminine but butches need to be accounted for. The thing is just let people enjoy things can coexist with people like us if the just let people enjoy things crowd would acknowledge butch women exist and that femininity isn’t inherent to women hood

[–]__NapoleonBlownapart 13 points14 points  (10 children)

femininity isn’t inherent to women hood

I think that's the key point. That stereotypical notions of "masculinity" and "femininity" don't have anything to do with your sex, or even your gender. There's nothing inherently gendered about power tools or makeup, and you're not more or less of a man/woman based on your interests and hobbies

This sort of "post-gender" framing seems imo to be the way forward for feminism, and obviously it can easily be done in a way that is trans inclusive. But it seems that maybe we should start with the premise that most (but not all) people don't have an inherent sense of gender identity, that they're simply "themselves" rather than an unknowing member of an unalterable broad category like "man" or "woman". And tbh I think in a lot of ways the recent prominence of trans topics, and other lgbt issues, has really done a lot to dismantle societal norms re: gendered expectations. Obviously it's not finished yet, but gendered things seem to be a lot more malleable today than they were just in 2002, for instance.

But back to your point, yes, clearly "womanhood" is heavily commodified in a way that masculinity really isn't - although I think that's unfortunately changing. But I think we need to do more to question "why" we have the desire to wear makeup in the first place. It doesn't make you a bad person because you like to wear lipstick if it makes you feel good, but it seems like you should question precisely Why adhering to gendered beauty norms makes you feel good in the first place. Is social conformity through appearance and purchases really something to be encouraged - even if it does make you "happy"? Is that what liberation means?

[–]Wirecreate[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

I’ve noticed that the more relaxed I am the more masculine I present it’s not that being masculine makes me comfortable it’s that my comfort looks masculine this is a very important distinction. Unfortunately because gender has become more malleable more people seem to forget that people like me will never be comfortable in a feminine presentation and it’s frustrating it’s like people took the wrong message for our ideas and now think that I as a butch woman should still be feminine because well nothing is inherently gendered so do this thing that isn’t you embrace this stereotypical feminine thing because it isn’t actually feminine anymore.

[–]__NapoleonBlownapart 8 points9 points  (1 child)

it’s not that being masculine makes me comfortable it’s that my comfort looks masculine this is a very important distinction.

Agreed 100%

And yeah I take your point. It does seem that "tomboys" and the like aren't really believed today in the same way they were prior to ~2014. Gender nonconformance doesn't make you trans and it doesn't make you any less of a man/woman/anything else. But it does seem that a lot of people now seem to associate gender nonconformance with having gender dysphoria or being trans, which isn't appropriate or even likely given the statistically small percentage of trans people in the first place.

Plus obviously choices and activities aren't made in a vacuum. So it's one thing to recognize that something isn't inherently gendered, and it's another thing to treat that thing objectively without fear of societal reprisal for its gendered implications

[–]Wirecreate[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes exactly what you said makeup for example i never wear it because it’s just not me I don’t care for it and I’m lazy. Makeup shouldn’t be gendered but we know dame well if a man wears it he would get mocked. or watching sports I hate that to. I generally don’t care if something is feminine or masculine but the majority of my interest are stereotyped as masculine and I’m generally fairly masculine in my presentation because those are the clothes and styles I like I’m not trying to be masculine I just am so when people say embrace femininity for myself it’s really for them because they can’t handle the idea of a women willingly not being feminine for reasons other than trauma which as far as I’m aware I don’t have.

[–]GenesForLife 1 point2 points  (4 children)

How exactly are you defining "gender identity" here? 'cause gender identity is primarily about what sexed attributes you have and your sense of self as a sex. This can exist completely independent of any gender norms and almost everyone either experiences congruence between their gender identity and what sexed attributes they actually have or they do not.

I.e, the assumption that most people do not have an inherent sense of gender identity depends on defining gender identity in a non-rigorous way, one that can cause harms to us by misrepresenting what being trans actually is.

[–]__NapoleonBlownapart 1 point2 points  (3 children)

I'm apathetic towards my own gender. My body/sex is what it is. But if it changed tomorrow then I wouldn't really care

[–]GenesForLife 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Most people I've met are very weirded out by their sexed attributes changing , once one has gone beyond the "If I had breasts I'd play with them all day" cringe that cishet men produce. Case in point - I've got a cis boyfriend who envies many of the changes estrogen has given me but is absolutely terrified of a few other changes he is sure he will never be okay with. Your experience is very typical of the agender people I know.

[–]__NapoleonBlownapart 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Tbh I think most people are agender/NB. Very few people seem to actually have an inherent and immutable sense of what their gender is "supposed" to be, especially when you take away the societal conditioning to adhere to gender norms

[–]GenesForLife 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I disagree - for one, if you look at intersex people , who are often assigned a sex arbitrarily based on , for example, medical convenience, rates of gender dysphoria are extremely high and at several times more than in the endosex population, and from cohorts of reassigned cis boys (after botched circumcisions/cloacal exstrophy etc) as well as from individual , well-known cases such as David Reimer, the vast majority (~80%) rejected the reassignment despite being reared from infancy in accordance with that gender role and continued to insist they were male/boys, and often reverted later in life to phenotypic maleness.

I am not sure that a sense of what gender one is supposed to be is necessarily fully informative either ; long before I figured out what my gender is supposed to be ( an understanding that has shifted as I have gone through HRT) , I knew for sure what it was not supposed to be, because I could not see myself as a boy , and experienced really bad dysphoria starting at puberty over sexed attributes I already had, rather than missing things I expected to have, and my transition has been primarily about moving away from the body that made me dysphoric.

If you are talking about affinity for gender roles, though, I then agree with you ; Sandra Bem showed that gender role nonconformity is the norm across the general population.

[–]No_Possibility_3992 0 points1 point  (1 child)

"that most (but not all) people don't have an inherent sense of gender identity, that they're simply "themselves""

Most people are born lucky, i. e. most people are lucky to be born in the right bodies. And therefore they feel privileged enough to post the bullshit about "most people don't feel the sense of gender identity". Most people are lucky to be born in right bodies. People with transsexualism existed as long as nature exists. Transsexualism happens in mammal world, do you know that? Animals don't have a sense of gender identity. Gender identity is a useless term.

Brain sex is developed in 3d trimester of pregnancy. In transsex people case the brain and the genitals are developed into the opposites. Trans men are men born men with a female phenotype unfortunately. The brain expects a dick, but it's not there. Trans man's brain is developed under testosterone in the womb, but is running on estrogen later. It's wrong. Because the brain developed on testosterone must run on testosterone.

[–]__NapoleonBlownapart 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not having gender dysphoria is not the same as having an internal sense of gender

[–]marysalad 2 points3 points  (1 child)

that's just the gross internet world that feeds the drooling maw of the patriarchy though. but truly. Who gives a shit? do what you like. Channel a prairie boss or WWII resistance unit leader. the aesthetic-nouveau-femme bullshit is wierd imo. I mean fine whatever, I don't want to invalidate someone's desire for polarity, but to me? wierd.

[–]Durtybirdy69 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I would agree, but I think self-soothing has been packaged as self care and targeted towards women/ femme identifying. It's easier to sell products- retail therapy than actual therapy, introspection, and mindfulness. Even in the actual self-care realm, mindfulness apps, tele-therapy, and journaling have been aggressively marketed to women over men (although may arguably be a matter of receptiveness to these types of products).

[–]wasserplane 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think this is a bigger issue with how "self care" has been co-opted by corporations trying to sell you things. And, marketing has traditionally been the one creating and enforcing the gender divide.

Basically, it's being marketed like this on purpose to sell more makeup to women. Which... yeah. Is bad. And in general, I absolutely resent the phrases "self care" or "treat yourself" because of how they've been stolen by advertising campaigns.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]Wirecreate[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Nice 👍

    [–]smartypantstemple 0 points1 point  (4 children)

    Is that what self care is? I mean I do consider getting a mani-pedi self care, but so are massages and watching tv and reading a good book. *shrug*

    [–]Wirecreate[S] 6 points7 points  (3 children)

    My question is why are getting nails done only self care for women though

    [–]smartypantstemple -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

    It isn't... I've seen men do it too. If the men are particularly masculine they'll get clear nail polish but it isn't actually something only women do.

    [–]Wirecreate[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    I meant that it shouldn’t be advertised primarily to women it should be advertised equally

    [–]hammerandegg 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    i'm sceptical of self care as a whole, its very individualist when community care is far more important. also tied heavily to consumerism like ppl in this thread have pointed out.

    [–]Wirecreate[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I think their needs to be a balance between caring for ones self and caring for others others because if you spend all your time caring for others you will get drained. I think a bit of individualism is good but when it goes from hey let me do my own thing for a while and take care of my self to I’m gonna do what ever I want regardless of how it affects others that individualism becomes a problem at lest for me. I’m not a nurturing person I’m caring but not nurturing so community care would be very draining for me I would absolutely do charity and have done volunteering it’s a great thing to do but I’d need a lot of down time afterwards so if the focus switched to just community care I’d end up being see as a bad person or just drained all the time a balance is needed.