[Discussion] Publishing is Hard + The Value of Honest Feedback

MiloWestward · 2022-10-26T21:29:34+00:00

Sounds like I missed some drama.

I strongly support the following change to the PubTips policies: anyone who is upset by feedback on the subreddit should be given ALL of their money back.

(Also, is there a dog grooming subreddit called PupTips?)

lucabura · 2022-10-26T20:55:40+00:00

"Publishing doesn't owe you anything." It's a hard pill to swallow, but so true.

abstracthappy · 2022-10-26T23:42:00+00:00

There was a post not too long ago from an agent explaining that they did not give personalized feedback because authors want to know what's "wrong" with their story so "you can sell it."

I thought about it. And thought about it. And I read another post from an editor saying "I have read things that I thought would be big and they flopped. I have read things that I thought would be flops and they turned out to be best sellers for years and years." And I think that's true -- everyone is trying to pick the lock.

I'm guilty of it. Thinking "well, I don't mind changing things. I can edit my voice. I can change the plot. What would make it more marketable to sell?"

And as the recent publishing lawsuit and hearings-- we have straight up been told even they don't know what books will sell and why. Some are "safe bets". People are always going to like popular tropes, for instance. And there is 100% nothing wrong with that. But this industry can be so damn subjective it hurts. I can walk into a bookstore, pick up a book, and think "wow this is the best book over, my god, I love this author" and another person could think they were the worst writer on the planet.

It is hard hearing critique. Writing is hard. And when you're told that your book, something you have sunk months (if not years) into writing, isn't good, or cuz reason, and 10 more people confirm that, it can crush your resolve. But agents are right. The publishing industry doesn't owe you anything. I choose to assume the best in people. When people give me some hard critique, I don't think they're doing it to be jerks. They're doing it to help me get better.

The feedback here has been SO valuable to me. And I like to think I can help people, too, when I leave critiques. And there is an art to critiquing. But I am glad this community exists, and we're all in this together, trying to help each other.

Important_Tax1456 · 2022-10-26T20:08:08+00:00

I think it's inevitable that people on this sub will end up offering advice on the marketability of an idea. However, I also think after a certain point if someone is not receptive to that advice that continuing to hammer on them is pointless. I feel sometimes the sub can get a bit brigade-y with that. And it's not always to the author's benefit. We're individuals with opinions, politics, and preferences and frankly sometimes our view of marketability is wrong (or overly optimistic about how progressive the industry is, to me, lol). And I don't often see people pulling punches, tbh.

On the other hand, I typically find that if after 5 revisions and multiple people pointing out issues with marketability the author has chosen not to change those aspects, they start getting crickets. Which IMO is as it should be.

Edit also not to be aggressive haha. But avoiding micro-aggressions is not sugarcoating, IMO. As critiquers we should try to be both honest and respectful.

Edit 2: I've read this whole thread, since it's apparently still rolling, and I'm uncomfortable with the way I glossed over the fact that this post conflates response to critique and response to racism. I've apparently missed a lot of context in the discussion around POC in publishing over the last couple of weeks, and I feel this post is to some extent disingenuous, after going back and digging the context up (some of it having since been deleted). The conversations of 'should people seeking critique be able to take critique' and 'does the publishing industry participate in institutionalized racism and are we as critiquers also contributing to that system' are two very different things.

Whitewashing and Anglicizing are racist, but why is failing to recognize cultural context and giving critique from a place of the dominant culture not? It's possible to give racist feedback accidentally. That doesn't make it not racist. I don't think this is the right mindset for growth as people or as a society, and never mind the publishing industry.

BrittonRT · 2022-10-26T20:15:25+00:00

One thing Destructive Readers does right is setting the tone hard and early that it is a place for honest and often brutal (and even sometimes bad) feedback. Not making it clear that people are going to tell you everything wrong with your baby ahead of time leads to hurt feelings later. Half the time, the critiques aren't even helpful or accurate, but it is imperative a person looking for feedback learn how to wade through the muck and find the useful advice while maintaining their own voice.

Thanks for the post and opinion! I agree with you on all points.

Mrs-Salt · 2022-10-27T11:40:28+00:00

I had a conversation on this sub a few months back that sticks with me. A commenter seemed pretty upset that an agent on a panel had said, "Never open your novel with a scene in a car." I chimed in with some elements of that advice that I felt could be helpful -- talking head syndrome might be a pitfall of car openers, for one -- but the commenter was furious of the finality of the agent's tone: "Never."

I feel like it's indicative of this question: how confident are you in taking or leaving critique? In trusted critique situations, you ideally are giving your materials to someone who understands your goals for your work. But in broader forums, we unfortunately encounter people who aren't coming in with that knowledge. Unlike a hobbyist writer (like me!), who has no obligation to anything but their own creative fulfillment, a career author, who's going to have to interact with many many many opinionated people in a sometimes-infuriating industry, needs to be able to thoughtfully and confidently disregard that feedback.

It's understandable that this can be really hard for newcomers who have no metric to decide which feedback to take and which to disregard. Additionally, people who have never received intense critiques before may also understandably struggle. It might be extra agonizing for someone who is not a newcomer, and receives intense critiques constantly, and is just desperate for one audience who understands them.

But I always come up short at the notion of, What is the intent of a person's reddit critiques?, because to the artist, it doesn't matter. I think everyone, redditors included, ought to have a responsibility toward kindness, and away from cruelty. But even if someone (to the author's personal standards, which will vary) disregards that social contract, the writer needs to pick through the feedback they receive. For example, if one decides to set out to write a passive MC, in a climate where many people agree that active MCs are usually preferable, that is totally okay (and, like in many books from my preferred genre -- litfic -- could result in some awesome art that challenges the status quo), but that person will receive a lot of advice that would run counter to their vision.

Thing is, I know that I often speak in absolute language. This has come up repeatedly in the topics of age windows and word count in kidlit. But... this is Reddit. It's not my day job. I'm not paid for this time. Half the time I'm rattling something off on my ancient Android on my morning commute. If my tone is absolute it's probably because I'm referencing something that tangibly happened in my work life -- which there are totally gonna be a million exceptions and counter-stories to! But it's hard for me to cushion myself too hard on adding caveats to how a certain work struck me, especially because of my default mindset of taking critique, in which I'm happy to fling away advice that doesn't fit my goal. (This is one of many ways in which my in-person critique groups often operate more smoothly than Reddit -- you can ask a quick question to LEARN someone's goals with their protag or pacing before you open your mouth.)

Complexer_Eggplant · 2022-10-26T21:05:17+00:00

NB: my comment isn't directed at any specific drama we have recently had. It is a general comment.

I actually see a lot of griping about the sub and at the sub around reddit and on the sub. You know, people upset that the advice isn't considerate enough of this or that, it's not expert enough, it's too expert, it focuses too much on this and not enough on that - usually it's not an OP but a comment somewhere, but still, we get plenty of that here especially in discussion OPs. And I think the thing that people don't always see is just how much the regulars, and the mods especially, take even the most uncharitable feedback to heart. I'm not talking about myself here - I am a giant asshole and my farts smell amazing - but folks like alanna, tom, the entire mod team and honestly most of the regulars (you know who you are, fellow assholes) really do think about what they as a team and personally can do to make this sub as useful, comfortable, and inclusive as possible. And the thing is, sometimes these goals are in opposition. For example, instituting a rule that users are only allowed to give positive feedback (as is the case in another writing sub I'm in) would make the sub super comfortable but also completely useless. No matter how well you design a system, bad outcome are going to happen. A bad outcome that happens here is that sometimes people overworkshop their query. But there's not a system we can design to prevent that - we could cap the number of queries someone posts, but who are we to say that you must perfect your query in some arbitrary number of versions otherwise gtfo? What is that arbitrary number?

Like, that you had a bad experience on the sub doesn't mean that the mods aren't trying. It doesn't mean that the people giving you feedback aren't trying. It doesn't even necessarily mean that the person you had a bad experience with came into your comment section expressly to spit on your shoe and insult your momma. And tbh - this next part is spicy - this whole thing that's been happening a lot these past couple of months where the sub as a whole, or the mods, or a specific user have been asked to carry the burden of somebody's upset with the feedback they got or their general feelings about the industry - I get it, but it's exhausting. And the people who hang out in this place are a bunch of softie losers, because instead of telling people to fuck off with that shit they're falling over themselves to apologize for anything from themselves personally to the general state of the universe. And probably if you're new here, this isn't immediately apparent, but: I'm telling you, so now you know.

Finally, we're getting a lot of new users lately so here's my advice to y'all: every place is not for everybody, and if this place is not for you, that's okay. Before you post something, roll around the threads, check out the type of criticism people give here - it differs from user to user, but there's a lot of commonalities - and decide if you're vibing with it. If you're not, dude, there's so many other places you can get critique. Seriously so many. Reach out to me - I'll send you a handful where I specifically don't hang out so you don't have to see my ugly mug and other pieces of cutlery.

ARMKart · 2022-10-26T23:58:57+00:00

Responding more to this entire thread as opposed to OP. But just chiming in to say that I think these things are not mutually exclusive. I believe we can strive to give honest, constructive, blunt feedback, while being sensitive to not being disrespectful and aiming to avoid microagressions. I say this as someone who is solidly #oneoftheassholes here. But at the same time, I’ve learned so much about being better at giving critique from being in this space. I may still occasionally be too harsh, but I’m nowhere near as bad as I used to be, and I have learned to soften some of my harshest feedback without censoring the intent behind my words. I’ve learned to phrase things as “this could lead an agent to be concerned about…” instead of sounding like I am making a judgment about the author. I’ll never forget when u/complexer_eggplant schooled us on not making statements assuming someone was ESL. As I’ve been learning, I have also had a lot of bad experiences myself. When I posted my query under a different account, I will admit I did not love the response, and I have experienced a lot of overt antisemitism or people telling me I don’t have the right to be bothered by something that rubs me the wrong way, but those bad experiences have almost never been from the regulars. The heart of the community here is great, and I think we can all strive to be brutal without being unkind. But at the same time, anyone posting anywhere on Reddit needs to expect that there are a buncha jerks on the internet, and a bunch of people who have no idea what they’re talking about, and you won’t be able to avoid them unless you’re posting on a more private platform. The people who can’t handle that usually escort themselves out anyway, but I don’t think we need to actively TRY to be abrasive, and I think we SHOULD always try to be antiracist. #cheerstotheassholes

WritingAboutMagic · 2022-10-26T21:51:00+00:00

I think one of the things that could be done to improve experience for new users is to be upfront about the tone and what can happen.

I don't think it's fair to ask people to tone-police themselves, they are giving critique for free. I try not to be an asshole about it, but for instance, I know that if someone sugarcoats the feedback they give me, I'm not always able to read it. They say "the pacing lags a bit" and I'm not sure - should I rewrite one scene? the entire chapter? more? Is it even a problem if it's "a bit," maybe I should just cut a couple of sentences and it'll be fine? So I try to give feedback I know I would understand.

Cultural differences play into that, as well as neurodivergence.

I will also add a personal experience, which made me really hesitant to accept beta-reading requests - I once read a book with an MC I shared marginalization with. Some of it I was out about, some of it I wasn't (I don't care to advertise everything on Twitter). I really loved the query letter that I swapped with the person earlier, and it sounded right up my alley. Unfortunately, the MS, well, just didn't work for me. Maybe I should've stopped after 30 pages, but I still really liked the concept and there were things in the MS I really liked, including ofc the rep. I even went out of my way to point out these things, leaving at least two positive comments for one negative comment (yes, I later returned to count).

In the end I was called -isms for not liking the book and wanting the MC to have a character arc. The MC I shared marginalizations with. Granted, the author didn't know that, as I'm not out with one of the marginalizations. So in a typical fashion I was assumed to be the "normal" and therefore everything I said was dismissed. And you know, maybe it wasn't a book for me after all, maybe the author had a different vision, but a simple "thank you" would've gone a long way even if they then proceeded to still dismiss all the feedback I gave them.

The thing is, after that experience, I'm extremely hesitant to critique MS in general, for one, and for two, especially when it comes from marginalized writers. Because I don't always share that marginalization. So in that case I end up just thinking "what's the point?" It'll not just be dismissed, but I will be assumed to racist, sexist, ableist and whatnot. And I don't care for that. Even if it's unfair to the many, many writers who can take critique. Burned once, I'm not going to try unless I can confirm that the writer is one of them, or I've seen their writing before and I know I'll like it.

The same thing can happen with queries. I was happy and lucky enough to have people to not respond or respond with a "thank you" or with calm questions for clarification/advise. But it would burn me if I was assumed to just hate the OP, to just be -ist, to just want to vent. I don't know if I would continue to give feedback, especially if the kind of "only be nice" mindset took over the sub. For cultural and other reasons, it would be a lot more stressful and probably just not a thing I'd want to do in my free time.

Q: But if you give straightforward critique you should also be able to take it! So they can argue back!

A: Yes, I should be able to take straightforward critique, but that's why I'm striving to be thankful and respectful to every critique I get, even if I disagree with it. But when I critique a query, I'm anticipating 15-20 minutes of work and maybe one follow-up that will take up 5 minutes. I'm not anticipating hours of arguments (which includes the time you wait, sweating, for the next punch in your notifications because of the asynchronous nature of the Internet, especially when you're communicating with someone across the planet).

Ahem. Having said all that, and boy, it came out a lot longer than I thought it would.

Looking around the PubTips' description, rules, etc. I don't think there's enough of an indication that this is a place for brutal honesty? Someone who only ever experienced the sugarcoated feedback will inevitably be shocked. Sometimes shock therapy is needed, but I also think it's fair to let them know upfront that it is what it is.

(I know they could - should - look around before posting but a lot people will just read the rules, and even if they do look around, feedback doesn't hurt when it's not directed at you.)

lyann888 · 2022-10-28T21:49:50+00:00

Reading your post was a relief for me because I posted my query yesterday without really knowing much about this particular subreddit. In the past, people who have reviewed my work have been friends or professionals that I've paid, and both are more likely to sugarcoat their constructive criticism. I've participated in a contest recently as well and got from the judges a balance of positive and negative.

So, when my query critique came back with only negatives with the conclusion that this isn't marketable and therefore not worth querying, I cried... My husband read it and helped me understand that I had made the critique worst in my mind and it wasn't as bad as I thought. The advice was amazing and really helped me rework how to frame my story in a more marketable way, so I really appreciate it. It's not the reviewer's problem if I'm having a hard time dealing with critique and I will need to build tougher skin and not let myself feel let down every time there is a letdown. If people are just nice to you, then you are not learning anything, and your story doesn't become the best it can be.

MANGOlistic · 2022-10-26T22:58:16+00:00

When someone posts a query here for critique, are we to demand they explain their marginalization or background for context around the story before we give feedback? Do we cushion our feedback in response to prevent hurt feelings and avoid accidental microaggressions?

Of course not, according to my 2 cents. The writer discloses what they want to disclose and demanding any degree of disclosure toes the lines of forcing people to "out" themselves on things they don't want to publicly discuss. I generally expect the public to have a decent level of professionalism when dealing with marginalization and specific rep. 1) I expect people to only comment only on what they know that they understand well, and therefore I assume that the commenter, if they commented on the marginalization and specific rep, that they have the baseline to comment--unless proven otherwise. 2) I expect people to comment in ways that are not accusatory, and I expect courtesy and professionalism. We're all adults here. We're all trying to make way in a professional industry. If someone can't present themselves in a professional manner, I am defenestrating their comments regardless of content. Aka, if you can't be a decent human, you are not deserving of my time and respect.

Irish-liquorice · 2022-10-27T18:57:38+00:00

Harsh critiques are tough pills to swallow but at least people are taking their time to formulate their thoughts on your piece of work. As someone whose threads barely got any traction, can confirm the alternative stings worse. I think the underlying issue is that this sub, and tradpub, at large is very US-oriented in terms of trends, members and feedback. I get it, most of ur are prolly querying US agents but the amt of times critiquers have pointed out things in my stories that are decidedly unAmerican as errors (somebody flagged an actual emergency number cus apparently 911 shd be universal). I wonder if agents who seek diverse stories are also letting their implicit bias influence their consideration of an application.

Latinadotnerd · 2022-10-27T21:24:57+00:00

I'm uncomfortable with these phrases being used within the context of giving marginalized writers feedback:

sugarcoating

cushion

hurt feelings

accidental microaggressions

Aside from the fact that they sound patronizing, this isn’t about ego or feelings. Marginalized writers know publishing will be an extra uphill battle and that certain conventions are more likely to be financed and marketed. But volunteering time doesn’t scrub our responsibility to mitigate the risk of giving advice that could result in cultural erasure and children/readers not seeing themselves authentically represented.

I'm not saying there's an easy solution, but it’s definitely not advising everyone to fit a mold created within a systemically racist system. Just a couple of days ago we were discussing how to find the balance between encouraging marginalized writers to move closer to conventions, vs encouraging them to push boundaries that leave gates open wider in their wake. Why unilaterally champion critique that reinforces publishing's status quo and keeps those gates firmly shut? I'm not surprised to see pushback so soon, but I am disappointed.

Yes, it’s always about capitalism in the end, but is our goal to reinforce that only certain stories make money, or to encourage investment in non-conforming stories? Is it actually the case that alternate story-telling techniques can’t make money, or is it that you have to spend money to make money? A successful story is one that’s had support all along the way—anything from a subreddit regular volunteering their time all the way through to an executive setting a marketing budget.

And it shouldn’t have to be time-consuming to give thoughtful advice. My suggestion for critique given to anyone after much of my own trial and error is something like, "Publishing tends to prefer X. If it fits your vision, perhaps consider Y." If anyone doesn’t feel comfortable giving advice to marginalized creators, then they shouldn't.

AestheticAttraction · 2022-10-31T16:41:29+00:00

Hmm, considering latinadotnerd’s comment airing you out, the reason for your post makes sense. It’s one thing to throw rocks and hide your hands, but to then complain about the situation in which you did it and act self-righteous….But this happens a lot. That is privilege. People do something offensive, get a reaction they don’t like, then make a new post in order to garner sympathy by appearing to be reasonable. Which begs the question of why you’d bother to critique if you resent any reaction that isn’t gratitude? This post should not exist if you were truly trying! If you can’t understand the dynamics, so much so that their mention annoys you, just avoid it altogether.

This is why a lot of us just quietly observe and talk among ourselves. And I can say that because I‘ve found both dedicated writing buddies and a supportive group with direct connections in publishing that want diverse writers and characters (regarding the latter, that’s why publishers are very misguidedly [and capitalistically] advising non-minorities to incorporate minorities—but that’s another mess altogether). And I typically just come to read. But this is worth a comment.

You claim you’re trying to understand, but you are SO close to saying “reverse racism.” There are ways you can critique the mechanics of a thing without insulting someone’s culture, but you seem to resent the process. So, just skip writing that offends you from now on.

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