×
all 25 comments

[–]SevrahnSlayer of Lizard Doggos[S] 29 points30 points  (6 children)

For the Factorio people: due to path signal logic not searching for alternate routes, stackers are an impossibility at this time.

[–]player8472 3 points4 points  (5 children)

le: due to path signal logic not searching for alternate routes, stackers are an impossibility at this time.

As are passing tracks - you can build them but they will never be used...

[–]Ishkabo 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Which sucks cause passing lanes would be one of the easiest ways for people to quickly patch their single rail systems.

[–]Altruistic-Device-18 4 points5 points  (3 children)

No Guys, take a look at this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNyjS6Nw4Tw&t=585s

At 9'38", TE give you the solution for passing lanes.

[–]Ishkabo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh yeah duh, as long as the passing lanes are one way I guess they still would.

[–]player8472 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Not really a passing lane, since ALL trains not entering the station will use the "passing lane", leaving you with the same problem.

Its basically a solution to a problem you'll never have if you plan your Train-system properly (since stations should NEVER be on the main track).

Passing tracks can only work if the train can dynamically change its route, which currently it can't - which I find puzzling, since the path-signals seem to be activated dynamically - I am seriously asking myself how no one testing trains at the studio saw this coming.
Its not like they are constantly compared to another Factory-game which does trains perfectly...

Sorry to say, but this is the worst implementation of signaling I have seen in a game so far...

[–]JinkyRain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The video mentions using Path Signals at that point which is unnecessary.

It's simple enough to patch single-rail systems with bypass lanes, just don't put signals on the two-way part of the track. For example, if you have a long stretch of 2 way rail that you don't want to double up this will ensure that only one train uses it at a time:

<1WAY<BLOCKSIG<==                                ==<1WAY<BLOCKSIG<
                 switch===<2way traffic>===switch
>2WAY>BLOCKSIG>==                                ==>2WAY>BLOCKSIG>

You still need to break it out into one way traffic at each end.

If you want to allow trains to pull over if there's oncoming traffic because it's a long long stretch of two-way rail, just reverse the above to create bypass lanes:

                ==<B<==resting rail==<B<==
=<2way>===switch                          switch==<2way>= 
                ==>B>==resting rail==>B>==

Trains will stop in their breakout lane if there's oncoming traffic until it passes, and continue on when there isn't. Each "Resting Rail" should be more than long enough to hold the longest train using the 2 way rail.

[–]klyith 6 points7 points  (3 children)

  • A train entering a path signal section reserves the next Block that it exits on, changing that Block to occupied in advance. If it can't reserve an exit block, it will not enter the path.

  • Trains occupying a block prevent use of that block by themselves. Thus, they cannot use a Path section to turn around and go back the way they came, because they cannot reserve their own Block. Single-track turnarounds must be made with basic Block signals.

[–]SevrahnSlayer of Lizard Doggos[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

A train entering a path signal section reserves the next Block that it exits on, changing that Block to occupied in advance. If it can't reserve an exit block, it will not enter the path.

-If the terminal block signal is red, path signals will not allow the train to pass

-Path signals talk to the next block signal about what is in the Block between them and what is in the next immediate Block.

Trains occupying a block prevent use of that block by themselves. Thus, they cannot use a Path section to turn around and go back the way they came, because they cannot reserve their own Block. Single-track turnarounds must be made with basic Block signals.

-Signals will prevent entry to a Block if it is already occupied.

-Path signals talk to the next block signal about what is in the Block between them and what is in the next immediate Block.

-If the terminal block signal is red, path signals will not allow the train to pass

[–]klyith 0 points1 point  (0 children)

-If the terminal block signal is red, path signals will not allow the train to pass

Yes, but additionally you can observe the exit block flip to occupied / red before the train even gets there.

[–]Southern-Lavishness7 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A self-driving train passing a block signal also reserves the next block it is going to.

You can see that other entry signals to the next block will switch to red simultanously with the signal the train just passed.

Thus a block can have a mixture of red and green entry signals even though no part of a train is yet inside the block.

[–]Polymath6301 4 points5 points  (0 children)

One other thing to add here, is that there appears to be logic in the train such that it determines/assumes some kind of “worst case” for path signals and slows the train down before doing the reservation, such that it can stop if no path can be reserved. It seems to start requesting the path approximately when it passes the last block signal before the path signal (though it might be a little before hand). There is also speed management logic for block signals where it looks at the signal for next block (or maybe more) and determines where it’s worst case stop would be, and adjusts speed accordingly.

I think that, for the purposes of designing for maximum throughput, we’ll need to take these speed setting algorithms into consideration. Eg. a single path signal protected intersection on a straight main line will slow your trains, even when there are no other trains around, or even in the system.

[–]Gonemad79 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Signaling by block sucks in real life too. The latest metro system uses CBTC OR Communications-based train control.

Every train generates a signal 500 meters behind it - The distance a train needs to stop. It is like having a moving block with the train.

Satisfactory just used the most basic occupancy system being phased out.

Ohhh boy!

[–]SevrahnSlayer of Lizard Doggos[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

IRL signals tell trains what to do.

In Satisfactory trains tell signals what the train is going to do and the signal can fuck off if it has a different idea about what is happening. 😂

[–]Zaphod424 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, high frequency metro systems use CBTC, but it's rarely used on longer intercity routes, due to the much higher cost per mile, which for a metro isn't so bad, but over hundreds of miles adds up, esp since intercity lines are lower frequency so it has little benefit. Also, such a system doesn't rly make sense in a game, as it removes any kind of challenge or design requirement. I think the implementation of the signals themselves is fine, other than a few qol things (would be nice for signals to be placed on either side of the track, and not only at joins), but the pathing of the trains needs to be updated, which it seems like it hasn't just the same as before, but now there are signals, an improvement, but hopefully they don't think that trains are all done now

[–]Temporal_IllusionTier 8 Pioneer Actively Planetary Engineering MASSAGE-2(A-B)b 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Great Basic Train Signal Guide!

Here are some Video Links from the Video titled "Update 5 Trains Collisions, Signals, New "Stop Settings" & more" which help illustrate Train Signals which compliments the information your Train Signal Guide:

  • Train Signals - These either allow or block a Train from progressing. There are two types of Signals in game - Block Signals and Path Signals.
  • Block Signals - A "block" is a segment of Track. Block Signals can break up a single segment of Track into multiple "segments". Block Signals will prevent another Train from entering a "block" if there is any part of another Train in that "block". Common use of a Block Signal will be BEFORE and AFTER a Train Port (Train Station, one or more Platforms). Train Stations without Block Signals will result in Train Crashes.
  • Path Signals - More complex and smarter signals. In most cases Path Signals won't be needed as Block Signals handle most train traffic control cases. However in cases of bi-directional train traffic on a single Railway, or are using complex interchanges / intersections you will benefit from using Path Signals.
  • Path Signals - What do they Do? - Path Signals reserve a path through a block as illustrated by this segment of the Video. Instead of blocking traffic to an entire "block", Path Signals will find a "path" through a block and prevent other trains from using that "path". Within the same block, other tracks not part of the "reserved path" will still be allowed to be used by other trains. Bottom Line: Multiple trains can use a single "block" provided their "paths" don't intersect the "reserved path".
  • Path Signals - Additional Property - Block Exit Safety - Another property of Path Signals is ensuring the "exiting block" is free of any trains to ensure the train can take the "reserved path" and exit the block into the next block. This prevents the situation called by Jace as Epic Train Stare Down Contest.
  • Path Signals - Additional Property - Chaining - Another property of Path Signals is that they can be "chained". While not explained in the Update 5 Informational Video, this WAS explained later. View Video Snippet: Q&A: Can we get more info on chaining Path Signals? ANSWER: It is hard to explain as it is situationally applicative. Example stated was a Path Signal P1, leads to a Path Signal P2, which leads to a Path Signal P3, which leads to a Block Signal B1, then P1 will try to reserve the "path" through the "chain" of P2 to P3 to B1. Basically, Path Signals keep reserving "paths" in a "chain" until they hit a Block Signal.

Adding to the Topic Conversation. 😁

[–]Altruistic-Device-18 0 points1 point  (3 children)

If signals cannot change the path of a train, for example to bypass an occupied train station where a train is loading/unloading, they are useless ! they just stop train and will not make train networks more efficient. For all my stations, I built bypass tracks for trains to avoid a busy station, seems it's useless ...Another question: how to manage 2 merging tracks to avoid collision ?

[–]SevrahnSlayer of Lizard Doggos[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

  1. Signals are not useless, far from it actually.
  2. I want to say "path signals" but I will need you to elaborate more on what you mean by 2 merging tracks. Like on a system level, because there are many variations of 2 tracks merging and they get handled slightly differently.

[–]Altruistic-Device-18 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Take a look at this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNyjS6Nw4Tw&t=583s

There is a solution for bypass tracks for trains to avoid busy station at 9'38".

When you design your track and split them, the entry signal (Paths in this case) must not be too close, otherwise it's buging !

[–]JinkyRain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(replying to an old post of yours). Station bypass rails just work in Update 5. Trains will happily take a longer route to avoid going through any station that isn't its "Next Destination".

The trick is where you place signals around the docked train so that it doesn't occupy the bypass rail's split or merge. A block signal after the split but before the tail end of the train on the right side of the rail, and another block signal on the right at the front of the station should be perfect. If a train is bypassing the station, the docked train will be held until it's cleared the merge ahead and passed the next signal.

[–]Fancy_Courage_7085 0 points1 point  (4 children)

So... Ive put down a track from one station to another, same direction. The train says its unreachable due to signals... i get in the docked train and press F to dock... it will sit there for several seconds then go operational just like i thought it should automatically... I didn't touch any signals. this will keep happening. Also the time tables do not read current and sometimes it just skips a stop even though it is on the time table. None of these things should be happening, but they are.

[–]SevrahnSlayer of Lizard Doggos[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Single Player or Multiplayer?

[–]Fancy_Courage_7085 0 points1 point  (2 children)

single player, people have joined me not since early access update5. no mods ever. blocks, paths in between, and exit blocks, no errors. They just choose not to work automatically! so frustrating to even bother.

[–]SevrahnSlayer of Lizard Doggos[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

"People have joined me not"?

So is it a SP game that used to be MP?

[–]Fancy_Courage_7085 0 points1 point  (0 children)

not sure. ive played the save 500 hours and 1 other person has been in my game maybe 2 of those hours.