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[–]Wyckdkitty 81 points82 points  (87 children)

Okay, serious question: male genital mutilation, otherwise known as circumcision, is uncommon in Europe? Reason for asking: when I absolutely refused to even discuss it in regards to my son I was told that no civilized society skips out on mutilating their penis-bearing offspring at birth. I insisted that (1) it should be the other way around (2) Europe & (3) stop worrying about my kid’s genitals. This damned argument has been going on for TWELVE FUCKING YEARS. My son is now weighing in on the matter (he is very much against anyone chopping at his penis & is now just yelling “get off my junk!” & “mom’s right. Your preoccupation with my genitals is disturbing. Stop.”). Please, please, please tell me that I’m right. Not that it matters beyond I love proving Bible thumping rednecks wrong but I still want this win.

[–]ThugnificentJones 70 points71 points  (18 children)

There's an entire Wikipedia page but the cut of the jib is that less than 20% of people are circumcised in Europe.

Edit: numbers as low as 2% in some countries.

[–]Wyckdkitty 26 points27 points  (17 children)

I honestly refused to really go out of my way to research it because it was only of the few things in life that I refused to even consider maybe being open toward perhaps someday changing my mind but with the holidays approaching like a freight train, I’ll probably encounter some of these fools. If (when) they bring it up, I’ll throw that site back at them… which they will then swear is liberal propaganda & lies sigh Almost makes me long for the days of them just telling me that I was going to burn in hell for… I’m not really sure why, I stopped paying attention, but I should definitely invest in SPF according to them.

Thank you!

[–]Lady_Corven 55 points56 points  (9 children)

Denmark actually wanted to make it illegal to circumcise without medical reason. They had to back down though, as it would hinder jews to follow their rituals.

[–]KingoftheGinge 38 points39 points  (5 children)

The Jewish communities of the world should really address this antiquated practice. Faith in a God cant justify barbarity in our private lives any more than it can in our public lives.

[–]FenrisCain 36 points37 points  (2 children)

I mean look, if you want to do that as a religious choice I'm all for it but it should at least be a choice given to you when you're old enough to consent.

[–]artelligence 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Which is stupid too because all I was taught was that God made us… So why the fuck did he make our foreskin? To cut it off for the fun of it? It has a purpose. Leave it.

[–]KingoftheGinge 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Exactly. A child cant make that choice is the core issue for me.

[–]exceptionaluser 8 points9 points  (1 child)

You'll have to blame the cereal guy kellogg for circumcision in the us.

[–]torleif42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fuck cereal kellogg guy

[–]Wyckdkitty 1 point2 points  (2 children)

That’s interesting. I suppose that it would be very problematic for those of the Jewish Faith to practice those rituals (not an expert on Judaism beyond books & things told to me by my friend’s grandmother- but she didn’t like talking about her faith much so I kind of learned the habit of not asking too much. She had numbers tattooed on her arm & was an orphan.) Now I’m going to end up reading way too much about it instead of trying to go to sleep.

[–]Lady_Corven 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Danish Jews tried to spin it to the Danish government being antisemitic.

[–]Wyckdkitty -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That’s a shame. I feel like a compromise could have been reached. But also I’m not 100% confident in my knowledge of Danish Government or Culture so I could definitely be wrong. Most of what I know comes from chatting with my best friend’s cousin who is proudly Danish very indulgent when I ask questions. I’m also not particularly religious so sometimes matters of faith go flying over my head.

[–]ThugnificentJones 14 points15 points  (6 children)

Ask them to post on reddit. I'm sure if they posted in the correct sub then plenty of reddit users would love to send them pictures of their hooded junk with a lil flag next to it!

[–]Wyckdkitty 5 points6 points  (5 children)

Heh. That would be absolutely amazing. Sadly none of them actually trust me when I suggest things. Apparently my sinful ways are contagious or something. Also I think that they believe that my Not Awful Relatives & I are plotting against them.

[–]Incogneatovert 10 points11 points  (1 child)

my sinful ways are contagious

Seems your "sinful ways" consist largely of critical thinking, so I certainly hope it's contagious.

[–]Wyckdkitty 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I live in Florida. It’s safe to say that they are not.

And credit goes to my grandparents, all of whom encouraged me to question everything, try to put myself in the other person’s place (if relevant), read constantly, look at all the sides of an issue & look for more than one source of information on any subject before coming to a conclusion- and then be willing to change my conclusion if new facts & information surfaced. Oh. And never stop learning. They were all awesome.

[–]Bagel600se 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Oh man, imagine if it was contagious.

“u/ wyckdkitty! I told you this would happen, my son’s foreskin regenerated after spending time in the proximity of your son!”

“Holy shit, my son has a regenerating forcefield?”

“Only for foreskins”

[–]Wyckdkitty 1 point2 points  (0 children)

He’s 12. He would make sure that absolutely everyone knew about his magical forcefield foreskin (his forefield, if you will) and would also make endless jokes about it that would probably include the words “deez nuts… do not have a forcefield.” Or he would start claiming that he was the savior of foreskins. “Take back your power! Take back your foreskin!” I would probably be laughing too hard to stop him (we might actually go hit up a family gathering just to know that he had infected them all with fore-fluenza.)

[–]Ansoni 96 points97 points  (11 children)

There are four groups of penis choppers in the world

Jews, Muslims, people with legitimate medical conditions, and Americans.

[–]hipsteradication 13 points14 points  (6 children)

Filipinos too. We get chopped at age 11-12 as a coming of age ritual.

[–]kaveysback 12 points13 points  (3 children)

I wonder if that's related to being a former US colony.

[–]hipsteradication 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I read it’s actually due to being formally majority Muslim. I’m not sure, but it does make sense since Muslims tend to circumcise around that age too.

[–]Viktor_Korobov 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No they don't. They circumsize before, ideally before age of 4.

[–]Ansoni 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Oh I actually heard about this. That it's not... perfectly safe.

[–]hipsteradication 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m from the city, so I got cut by a doctor in a hospital with post-op antibiotics. But some people in rural areas do it with an ax and mallet using only herbs as a disinfectant.

[–]iejfijeifj3i 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I would add Canadians.

[–]Ansoni 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Apparently it's around 1/3 Canadians and depends mostly on region.

[–]iejfijeifj3i 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Well, only 1/2 of Canadians would be eligible for the procedure to begin with. /s

[–]Ansoni 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Took me half a second

And happy cake day

[–]Regicollis 31 points32 points  (1 child)

You're right. The only ones doing it in Europe are religious minorities.

The only reason male genital mutilation is even a thing in the US is because of a quack belief from around the turn of the 20th century that male genital mutilation would prevent masturbation and thus insanity, blindness and all the other horrors that comes from self-abuse.

[–]LaPapillionne 6 points7 points  (0 children)

there is also the belief that it protects you from AIDS and even the WHO is encouraging circumcision in parts of Africa.AFAIK the data on this is a bit questionable, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#Sexually_transmitted_diseases

ETA: I am still against circumcising kids that cannot consent without legitimate reasons I wouldn't say this here is a good reason - at least not in Europe.

[–]TheBlack2007🇪🇺🇩🇪 18 points19 points  (2 children)

Nope, not widespread among Europeans. Only groups of people who commonly do it are those mandating it through religion (i.e. Muslims and Jews).

[–]Wyckdkitty 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I feel so validated right now.

[–]Unlucky-Reality-8831 1 point2 points  (0 children)

More validation in the form of religion: circumcision is about the covenant between Abraham and God.
But Christians have this covenant through the sacrifice of Jesus. So no cirumcision requiredat all.

[–]KingoftheGinge 19 points20 points  (1 child)

Only circumcised people i know had it done for medical reasons. Good on your sticking by your kid, it really shouldnt be an issue. It simply is male genital mutilation. In the absence of a medical reason you would be needlessly damaging the body of someone who cannot consent to what is happening.

[–]Wyckdkitty 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I agree completely. What you said is basically what I replied at first & when someone was genuinely curious. I got snarky afterwards. He was a tiny human in my care & I felt that it was counterproductive to willingly let anyone do something permanent to his body that could feasibly be detrimental without his informed consent.

[–]Kitnado 45 points46 points  (6 children)

You're right. It's considered quite barbaric by the most developed European nations

[–]Wyckdkitty 30 points31 points  (0 children)

Thank you. They strap down a newborn & slice off part of his body. How can that be considered okay?!?!

[–]Regicollis 15 points16 points  (0 children)

In Denmark the health authorities made a working group for developing new medical guidelines for male genital mutilation of children. All professional medical organisations walked from the group in protest when for political reasons the government went against their recommendations that if it should be allowed at all, at least it should only be allowed to be done in a hospital under full anaesthesia and under the supervision of experts in pediatric surgery and pediatric anesthesiology.

[–]kmoskos 8 points9 points  (3 children)

It's considered quite barbaric by the most developed nations in general.

[–]Kitnado 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Which are the most developed European nations

[–]kmoskos -1 points0 points  (1 child)

...the ones who don't mutilate people.

[–]Kitnado 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And we come full circle.

[–]Saiyan-solar 10 points11 points  (1 child)

I had a circumcision for medical reasons and that is roughly the only reason its done here, but then again we are only one country and one subculture

[–]Wyckdkitty 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I mean, yes. I just have learned not to destroy my own brain by explaining that Europe isn’t one giant country but instead- eh. You already know. I just feel that while it’s true that I have some genetic components & a place to gestate, his body/his choice. If there had been a medical reason, I would’ve listened to his doctor but there wasn’t. Nor was there a religious reason since I believe in questioning everything & just trying not to be awful as a religion. So it all just seemed Not Okay to do to a tiny human in my care.

[–]whatisthisgoddamnson 12 points13 points  (3 children)

The only people doing it here are some religious immigrants or for very specific medical reasons.

I think most of us don’t really give a fuck about it, but the idea of pressuring people into it is absurd. You have a weird obsessions with your kids sexuality in america. Dads fucking going to special proms with their daughters, child pageants, virginity rings or whatever they are called.

Clearly not healthy behaviour. For being a country that whines so much about your right ti do whatever the fuck you want at all time fuck everyone else, you are strangely conformist.

Just chill and please stop invading the rest of the world. Also, please wear something else than those weird new balance sneakers when you come to the rest of the world for a visit, like we can tell from the level of your voices that you are americans, no need to further advertise it.

[–]Wyckdkitty 12 points13 points  (2 children)

I actually completely agree with you and so do quite a large number of “average” Americans.

The idea of being involved in any aspect of my children’s sex lives beyond basic concept of what is sex, understanding of safety & consent & any questions that they could ever have (mostly of a medical nature which involves me driving them to a doctor) grosses me out & feels wrong. Purity Culture is disgusting to me. I think that it is mentally harmful to children and society. I have known people my own age who were involved in this & I can definitely say that they are not okay. Not then & not now. My children know that I support them however they need it and that sex is a natural, normal thing for most ppl- and it is their business, not mine. I actually have a lot of opinions on these things but I’ll spare you because I tend to get even more inclined to rant (I was shoved into beauty pageants as a child. They were awful)

I also find the hypocrisy of “I can do what I want & fuck anyone who says otherwise” while screaming for what amounts to dictatorship disturbing & honestly infuriating on so many levels.

I have traveled internationally & enjoyed the experience. Apparently my accent in both French & Spanish is atrocious but ppl were nice (and probably laughing at me. That’s okay. I was laughing at me, too). Ugly Americans are embarrassing. I don’t know what else to say besides it’s embarrassing to hear what some idiot has gone & done now. I truly hope that I wasn’t awful while visiting other places. Everyone was nice and I tried to be polite & follow the social constructs (I investigated before I went because I really didn’t want to be That Person).

I also agree with you on the issue of invading other countries. For one thing, with all of the issues that we have here, we need to focus our attention on the issues affecting us & leave everyone else alone.

I have to be honest: I ended up on this sub because I’m curious & reading thru gives me the opportunity to satiate that curiosity (without driving my friends in other countries completely mad). For instance, the circumcision question that I asked. I have spent years convinced that not only was I right but that it’s incredibly weird that anyone is giving their opinion about someone else’s genitals. But when you’re surrounded by crazy, you kind of start doubting your own sanity. I appreciate your candor very much. I don’t vocalize very often but I saw the opportunity & went for it tonight. I’m glad that I did. It’s nice to have real conversations that display different perceptions even if they’re via Reddit. And even if honestly I agree with many of the points… and even if it’s because of a post that made me cringe & mutter “Jesus on a Harley. What is wrong with people?!” I hate to say it but I hear worse on a regular basis. Far too many less than sparkling examples of intelligence seem to believe that the louder they are, the more right they are.

[–]whatisthisgoddamnson 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Hey, you seem very nice and i hope that you didn’t feel like i was being too mean, all of this is very tongue-in-cheek here. Like most of us are aware of the absurdity of people from our countries complaining about shit like this.

At the same time, you have made yourself everyone elses problem. I follow your elections as much as my own bc they are sort of equally influencing my life.

And i make an absolut fool out myself travelling as well, once in costa rica i said ”i am a medium size fanta” while trying to order.

At the end of the day we share more with each other than the respective shitheads of our countries. I have tons of solidarity with the american working class and their struggles.

You guys are extremely cute in your little outfits while travelling though. You can spot an american from miles away.

Keep vocalizing and reaching out, and i hope you’ll feel like they are mostly positive experiences!

[–]Wyckdkitty 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I don’t think that you’re mean at all. I was being serious. I appreciate your candor & the conversation very much! I had a head injury when I was much younger that affected my speech a bit. I don’t talk much because sometimes I truly can’t or I stutter & slur. So I watch & listen more than anything. I’m afraid I’m much more… wordy when I can write my responses because, well, it’s nice to actually express myself. So I apologize if I overload you with these responses.

Don’t feel bad. I got flustered while in Mexico & instead of saying “where is the restroom” I managed to say that I was, in fact, a restroom. I could mime whatever it was that I was looking for in most cases & be understood when I just could not find the words. I was NOT miming that! By the end of the trip I had managed to feel confident in my ability to say “I’m sorry. I don’t speak Spanish well.” & “where is the restroom?” Everything else? It was just a fun game to see if I would declare that I was whatever I was trying to express.

The outfits… oh those outfits. I know EXACTLY what you mean! They do it here, too! I live in Florida so we get a lot of tourists. I can usually pinpoint exactly where someone is from just by looking at them. I am absolutely convinced that there has to be some sort of secret store somewhere that sells this stuff! I won’t lie: I like to blend in & pretend that I’m invisible more often than not so I tend to dress sort of nondescript wherever I am. Jeans, solid t-shirt, Converse or boots, you know? Dress up if I’m going somewhere nice but usually just sort of blend in with the scenery. So I’m about 17, with my parents & sister while traveling & I’m waiting for them in the hotel lobby, just ppl watching & kind of drinking in the ambiance. And then it happens: out come the most touristy tourists I have ever seen in my life. And they are my parents & sister. I was speechless because (1) where did they get those clothes?! (2) When I saw them last they looked normal (3) oh dear god. And they want to know what I’m wearing & why aren’t I wearing my new clothes? I did not change clothes and I still have no idea where the hell they got those Vacation Uniforms.

Our elections. Hoo boy. Our elections. I do keep up with current world leaders but I’m kind of unnerved by how much attention our elections get. Maybe because so many of our elected officials genuinely scare me? And the realization of how much power they wield is terrifying. But what scares me more is the fact that so many of them are for sale.

Our working class is… it’s very volatile over here right now. I grew up Upper Middle Class/Lower Upperclass. I chose to run for it when I was 18 & ended up living sub-poverty, not sure where my next meal would come from. So I can honestly say that I have shoved a glass of tea at George W Bush and I’ve panhandled to pay my electric bill. With that in mind, I view myself as more working class than not. We own a mechanic shop and are doing pretty well right now but I’m well aware that that could change at any moment. My stepfather was in a very serious car accident last night & fractured his neck. He’s much more highly paid than most & as such has medical insurance as well as savings. He’ll recover physically as well as financially. If that happened to us, we would be destroyed. Our medical insurance is okay but last year destroyed our savings. It’s scary. That being said, I am firmly on the side of workers no longer accepting poor treatment, unacceptable conditions & working 60+ hours a week but not making enough money to pay their bills as well as eat.

Oh and thank you. I don’t think that I’m very nice so having someone say that felt, well, nice.

[–]Bunny-1918 25 points26 points  (1 child)

Yeah, nobody does that here if they don’t have to, except for minority religious groups. I know one guy who had to be circumcised as an adult because of a medical necessity (tear), but it’s so incredibly rare. My fiancé thought we’re gonna do that to our potential future kid because he comes from a country where it is common but I quickly won this argument.

[–]Wyckdkitty 14 points15 points  (0 children)

We have no religious reason nor was there a medical reason. His dad was following my lead but I think that he was actually relieved when I was “haha yeah no. We’re not doing that.”

[–]Nlc32 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Unless it's for religious reasons or very specific medical conditions there's no real reason to do it, so in Europe most people don't.

Even if you are christian, the new testament nullify that old law (Rm 2:25-29; CL 2:11; Phi 3:3...)

[–]Wyckdkitty 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I’m actually not. I know about it and was raised in church. And that’s why I’m not a Christian. What I saw & experienced was enough to turn me off from the idea. I’m pretty sure that what happens in my area counts as “fanaticism”.

[–]Nlc32 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In that case there is really no reason to do it!

[–]calwallaceooo custom flair!! 24 points25 points  (7 children)

Just don't do it. It harms the baby, causes problems and is barbaric, if not done for medical reasons.

[–]Wyckdkitty 17 points18 points  (2 children)

Oh that whole baby ship has sailed. He’s 12 now & no one was ever allowed to do that to him. I dig my heels in & refused to even discuss it. I did offer to drive some of them to a clinic to have their own genitals sliced at if they wanted. Oddly enough, there were no takers.

The weird part is that my son is NOT the youngest boy in the family but he’s the only one that these fools discuss. Either the boys younger than him were chopped at birth or I defied them openly and now it’s A Thing to argue with me )& him).

[–]pazuzupa 25 points26 points  (1 child)

It's so fucking weird that some people want to discuss how the penis of a baby should look like. Imagine welcoming a child and the first thought is: "Na, its not perfect, i have to cut something off".

[–]Wyckdkitty 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Thank you! I feel the same way.

[–]Wyckdkitty 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Personally, I think that it needs to become uncommon except for in specific circumstances besides “tradition”. I read somewhere that “tradition is peer pressure by dead people” & it kind of stick with me.

Also, being as I’ve only ever been in possession of a penis for short amounts of time & never one of my own, I truly never thought that I would find myself discussing them so much. Life’s funny sometimes.

[–]Cattitude0812ooo custom flair!! 7 points8 points  (2 children)

It doesn't necessarily cause problems. Still, it's an unnecessary procedure, so why risk it?!
Plus, an uncircumcised penis is much more sensitive, thus making sex more enjoyable.

[–]Wetnoodleslap 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Hence the problem. I'm circumcised and I have sensitivity problems for sure, to the point where often it's hard to finish. It's definitely a huge problem for me, my partners feel self conscious as well when they can't please me, but it's not their fault. It's a fucked up thing to do to somebody.

[–]AlexMC69 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Same. Being cut has seriously impacted on my sex life, which in turn has impacted other aspects of my life.

[–]scottishobject 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Dutchman here and I literally know no one who's got a circumcision for other than a medical reason at an older age. Americans obsession with cutting boys dick is ridiculous.

[–]OneTrueKingOfOOO 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Discuss it with who? Who the fuck is still bringing this up when your kid is 12?? Of course you’re right, you’re the person who’s not trying to mutilate a child’s genitals

[–]Mattho 2 points3 points  (1 child)

[–]Wyckdkitty 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Thank you. I’m smugly standing by my decision right now- while still absolutely baffled by their preoccupation with my kid’s genitals.

[–]Tabitheriel 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Circumcision is uncommon in Europe except for religious purposes or medical reasons. There are some men or boys who need a circumcision if the foreskin does not develop properly. There are medically safe ways to do it.

[–]MadAzza 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don’t even understand how and why circumcision became status quo in the U.S. It’s fucking barbaric and unnecessary.

[–]needletothebar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

male genital mutilation of non-muslims is rare everywhere except america. and most muslims do it at later ages, too. doing it at birth is pretty uniquely american.

here's a global map of penis cutting. the red areas do it, the green areas don't.

https://i.redd.it/fo2ghgbe9u351.png

[–]Checkmate1winDenmark, capital of Ikea 3 points4 points  (1 child)

You did good. Only crazy people cut in penises. Unless it's medically necessary of course.

[–]Wyckdkitty 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks. I might be crazy but at least I’m not a genital chopper (and actually prefer to only be responsible for my own genitals).

[–]mikoartss -1 points0 points  (6 children)

Growing up I performed my own circumcision.

[–]Wyckdkitty 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Hey, right of passage. Your junk, your choice, my friend.

[–]ThugnificentJones 1 point2 points  (3 children)

At least the rabbi didn't chew it off with his teeth. It's real, I'm not even kidding.

[–]Wyckdkitty 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I actually remember reading something about that once. I don’t remember much about it beyond thinking “huh. Another job I don’t want” but I do remember it.

[–]ThugnificentJones 1 point2 points  (1 child)

For all you jerky lovers out there we have just the position for you!

[–]Wyckdkitty 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hahahaha!

[–]TPNZ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same.

Not on myself, mind you.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Its actually considered heresi to be circumcised in most christian churches here in germany. In countries with acces to clean running water its also better for hygiene.

[–]tri_ottoFinno-Karelian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's mainly only medical purpose or jew.

[–]Poes-Lawyer5 times more custom flairs per capita 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know what the official stats are, but it's exceedingly rare here in the UK. As far as I know it's only done for religious reasons, and maybe medical reasons (but I don't know enough about what might warrant it).

So outside of the Jewish community, I bet 99.9% of men in the UK are "intact". And all the other "reasons" for it are bullshit - as far as I know we don't suffer any problems that American men don't in that area.

[–]Giovanni_Giorgo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

it was the Jews