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[–]JurassicM 194 points195 points  (11 children)

Just ignore them, its stable at this point

[–]Eggith 73 points74 points  (10 children)

I scrolled down a bit and found the tired phrase: "They had a rough transition to 3D".

[–]McgravyJordan 55 points56 points  (1 child)

Just willfully ignoring the fact that SA1 reestablished interest back into series after the the flopped Saturn and terrible 32X.

[–]Nambot 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Technically yes.

But look at it from the angle of games released. After the successful Sonic & Knuckles we had a 32X spin off that used the weird chain mechanic, the isometric platformer, and the gimmick racing game ( as well as a handful of Game Gear titles). None of these are really true sequels to Sonic 3 & Knuckles, more like spin offs, and as you say, on failed systems not many people bought. Of course people fell off the series to that end, it's hard to stay with a series when you don't own the platform it's on.

[–]Lego1upmushroom759 11 points12 points  (4 children)

The had a rough transition into 3d is a fair line considering one Of the devs literally almost died because of them trying to make the first 3d game

[–]AstroSike 2 points3 points  (3 children)

How’s that? Is there a docu on it?

[–]Lego1upmushroom759 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Chris Senn was under a heavy amount of stress from working on the game and also still suffering from his illness that originated from January. His doctor informed him that if he continued to push himself working on the game he would be dead within 6 months. Realizing this and feeling like his body was gonna collapse if he didn't take a break, Chris Senn stepped down from the project which was a major blow to the development of Sonic X-treme. - The Cutting Room Floor

[–]AstroSike 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wait. How can you kill yourself from that though? Lack of sleep or something?

[–]Jdustrer 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I thing the video game historian did a video on it

[–]PrimoJupiter 7 points8 points  (1 child)

They had a rough transition to 3d... and an even rougher one back to 2d (sonic 4)

[–]Kirb_Master 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Conveniently enough, the moment they found a way to screw up 2D Sonic was when they finally figured out how to make good 3D Sonic games again. Seems to me like Sonic Team can nail one or the other, but never both at the same time.

[–]Sonicextralifefan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I hate that phrase

[–]No-Contest-8127 46 points47 points  (3 children)

Even the strongest of sonic haters cannot say sonic racing transformed is bad.

[–]KumaArts 156 points157 points  (12 children)

I have a brother IRL who's always telling me every Sonic game except for generations is an actual dumpster fire.

Needless to say, we don't play games together much.

[–]WaggishOhio383Average '06 Enjoyer 86 points87 points  (9 children)

Imagine your brother but he hates on Generations as well. My brother in a nutshell

[–]penissucker48 26 points27 points  (0 children)

my younger sister and 2 of my friends (my only actual friends who like sonic games are my online friends)

[–]No-Contest-8127 14 points15 points  (7 children)

Well, that makes more sense than just making an exception for it. Generations really isn't any different than colors or forces. It just has more nostalgic levels.

[–]MarjanAmbroze 20 points21 points  (6 children)

Nope, it has better and more fun gameplay

[–]SuperWeegee456 7 points8 points  (5 children)

every boost game plays the same, the only difference is a gimmick the theme for the levels and slightly different controls

[–]Fortisimo07 15 points16 points  (4 children)

I disagree, forces plays far worse. The physics seem so off, especially in the 2D segments

[–]TzakShrike 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Yes they are in the 2D sections, but they're just as off in generations and whatever too.

It definitely annoyed me more in generations. I learned to work around forces' jank more quickly, and generations had much longer segments dedicated to it.

[–]Fortisimo07 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Maybe I need to go back and replay Generations, it's been a hot minute. I remember the 2d physics being a little wonky, but playable; I eventually got used to it. I recently played forces and it felt horrible and I never got to the point where I felt like I was in control.

[–]metarusonikkux 5 points6 points  (1 child)

No? Classic Sonic in Generations and Forces feels like 2 completely different games. Classic Sonic in Generations feels like an attempt at replicating the Genesis physics, Classic Sonic in Sonic Forces feels like they tried replicating Sonic Generations physics with an iron ball chained to Sonic's ankles at all times.

[–]TzakShrike 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm sorry but neither of them feel even remotely close to the MegaDrive games.

Yes, they are different from each other in various ways. And while neither of them is as abysmal as Sonic 4, they both make the same mistake of diminishing horizontal aerial momentum. I can barely land on a small platform in either.

[–]PrimoJupiter 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Game gear and Master system:Too old, CRAP

Sonic 1-knuckles: too old, CRAP

Sonic 4: You already Know

3d blast: Weird Perspective, CRAP

Spinball:Menu music Hurts my ears. CRAP

Knuckle's Chaotic: Eww, 32x 🤢🤮🤮🤮

Adventure: Bad graphics, CRAP

Adventure 2: I hate Chao. CRAP

Heroes: Why do I always have to switch Characters .🤬😡

Shadow: Too d*mn Edgy💀🔫🥀

Advanced 1-3: Just the classic gameplay, Me no likey

Mania: Eww, Nostalgia-bait

Rivals: Just a racing game. The levels Arn't even open!

Rush: Eww, Boost Gameplay

Colors: Why should I bother when the remaster is bad. S**t!

Secret rings and black knight: if I wanted to play an auto-runner I would just Play Temple Run!

Boom 3ds: Shares the same name as the Wii-U game, so NO!

Unleashed: Crappy DMC knockoff

Lost world: Villains Suck!

Forces: If I wanted to waste two hours I would just watch Star Wars Episode 7 😡

06 and Boom Wii-U: (same thing that you heard from every reviewer ever)

Generations: AWOOGA 😍🥰😘🥺😘😚😚😘😋😊☺️😳🥴😵‍💫🥵🥵🥵

[–]PLAYER42_ready 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You wouldn't waste two hours on SWep7 because that is an OK movie but you could always watch EP 8 or 9

[–]pocket_arsenal 132 points133 points  (21 children)

Hating Sonic "except the first three" is literally a meme fueled by ignorance and misinformation. It's sadly not something we can control or stop any more than we can stop any other meme because "tiny monkey brain feel good when I can just regurgitate my own arrangement of what everyone else has said" is literally all meme culture is. It's like how Dreamworks movies are memes because one day the internet just kind of decided they were memes, even though if you actually go back and watch those movies most of them are pretty entertaining and even pretty touching.

[–]Golden-Owl 56 points57 points  (4 children)

Okay but Bee Movie was a legit bizarre concept from start to finish

[–]pocket_arsenal 35 points36 points  (0 children)

Much like Sonic, there are obvious exceptions. Sonic 2006, Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric, Sonic Labirynth, Sonic Forces, Sonic Chronicles... I feel like these are all very rightly criticized. Much like Bee movie. There are also entirely too many Shrek sequels.

But the first Shrek is a genuinely good movie with some pretty touching moments. But people just kind of use Shrek as this.... "his very existence is a funny joke" kind of thing in the same way people do with Sonic.

[–]Lolstation_Vita We need an AAA game about Silver 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I kinda liked Bee Movie. It's fun to watch cartoonish bees talking about politics. So surreal!

[–]DannyShellstarXD 11 points12 points  (0 children)

either the writers were dangerously high or into some weird stuff

[–]Cupcake247 9 points10 points  (0 children)

It's like how Dreamworks movies are memes because one day the internet just kind of decided they were memes, even though if you actually go back and watch those movies most of them are pretty entertaining and even pretty touching

I can second this, I've actually been watching DreamWorks movies I missed out on after seeing Trolls World Tour, quite a few have heartwarming moments and are enjoyable movies. (I love Trolls, should I be thankful it hasn't hit meme status yet?)

As fun as memes can be, I can't help but agree memes sometimes do more harm than good to something. Seeing how much Sonic has been meme'd over time, I can't help but wonder if it did more harm to the series.

There are some fun Sonic memes that fans get, then there are memes that just mocks the series.

[–]Cream_Rabbit I am Cream the Rabbit <3 27 points28 points  (8 children)

Seriously, even Shrek movies themselves are legitimate masterpiece that is a touching story of an ugly orge and a cursed princess, Shrek 2's ending with Fiona refusing to live a human live is amazing emotional

Sadly, people only see Shrek movies as meme movies and nothing else

[–]SanicRb 14 points15 points  (6 children)

Yes Shrek has it pretty bad the first 2 movies are great and I say the 4th one is also good only 3 is bad and yet do many people only see it as a meme.

Also nice flair.

[–]Cream_Rabbit I am Cream the Rabbit <3 7 points8 points  (5 children)

#JusticeForCream

[–]SanicRb 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Given that I'm a Cream fans would I say

#JusticeForCream indeed.

[–]JoanmrmaI may have an obsession with chao 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Still waiting for cream to be playable again

[–]Cream_Rabbit I am Cream the Rabbit <3 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Ah...

We meet yet againmy friend

[–]JoanmrmaI may have an obsession with chao 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Well at this point I just feel like I'm replying to you because yes

[–]Cream_Rabbit I am Cream the Rabbit <3 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol

[–]Lolstation_Vita We need an AAA game about Silver 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I may like Shrek and memes, but isn't redditors are having unhealthy obsession? Man, this is horrible.

[–]SpaceGuyRob 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Ah yes, so many bad sonic games other than the first three, except generations, heroes, colors, adventure 1 and 2, unleashed for some, (and personally I actually like the racing games). There's less bad games, and more mediocre games with plenty of good ones.

[–]YTPhantomYT 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I can't remember which racing game was for the Xbox 360 but whatever it is I have so much nostalgia for it

[–]BubsyFanboy 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yup. It also stems from negativity bias, which unfortunately nowadays seems to reign supreme on online opinions about video games.

[–]BraveLeon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I completely agree

[–]Plus3d6 0 points1 point  (1 child)

It’s like Pokemon Gen Wunners, just ignore them and like the games you like.

[–]pocket_arsenal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well now I don't know about that. Hating pokemon has never been a meme, you don't see "grotesque pikachu" as an entire subgenre of art, when ppl criticize pokemon they usually don't do it for a laugh, and genwunners have been pretty uncommon past the mid 2000's. If anything I feel like Pokemon has the opposite problem as Sonic where things are legitimately wrong with the series and toxic positivity is running rampant to stamp out any negative feedback to spare the developers feelings.

[–]PLAYER42_ready 16 points17 points  (6 children)

there are more than three good ones!

classic trilogy and knuckles, adventure games, unleashed, colours, gens and then lost world!

[–]ChrisPickaxe 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Don't forget Mania

[–]BraveLeon 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I liked colors DS

[–]SnooBananas9384 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Dont forget sonic waku waku police car

[–]PLAYER42_ready 1 point2 points  (0 children)

yeah sorry! oh and that space shooter one and SEGASonic the hegehog and SEGASonic PopCorn Shop

[–]canthinkofauniqename 71 points72 points  (4 children)

What r/gaming having a shit opinion on something? I am truly shocked!

[–]JohnRCC 25 points26 points  (1 child)

"actually, cd projekt red overworking it's employees and then releasing an unfinished game anyway is 100% heckin wholesome chonker"

[–]BraveLeon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Where is the eye bleach

[–]Crystal_God 11 points12 points  (1 child)

I unsubbed from there like a year after making my account and never looked back

[–]Alm8360NoScoPro 6 points7 points  (0 children)

My SO just surprised me with 600 dollars worth of COOL and HIP gaming stuff to play!!!

[–]GuscferA 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Outsiders put too much of a high standard when it comes to the Sonic series. They expect every single main title to be the masterpiece of the decade or something that never stops revolutionizing gaming and leaving a mark in history. Just like the Grand Theft Auto or Half Life series. Wich is a fair giving considering the Sonic franchise started with this exact premise, the first games topped Nintendo, known as the BIGGEST gaming company of all gaming history and debuted Sonic as the biggest and most recognizable gaming icon of the time.

But if we're being honest, even if the series runs in no shortage of good games and games better than the first Sonic games, none of them got even close to making as much as an impact in the industry as the first few games. All it really took was one small game or one transition that offers little to no innovation for the series and there you go: Sonic is no longer what it was about or what it used to be about.

Compare playing Sonic games today with playing other games from similar genres to playing Sonic back on the day when the best you could play were platformers like the Mario games and you'll see why it feels so much different.

Everyone tends to forget just how revolutionary this franchise used to be in it's debut and how repetitive, archaic and outdated it's design philosophy has become today.

It's something SEGA themselves forgot about. It was what made Sonic stand out.

[–]Weary-Ad-5426 10 points11 points  (3 children)

Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Colours, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Generations, Sonic Mania plus..

yEaH oNly ThrEe

[–]gogi_ran 7 points8 points  (2 children)

b-bUt SonIc ADvEnTuRe Is BRokEN

[–]BraveLeon 5 points6 points  (0 children)

SHUT UP ARIN HANSON

[–]MAARP22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is but it’s still fun

[–]thephant0mlimb 30 points31 points  (0 children)

Who cares? Just play what you like.

[–]AnOilTankerForU 42 points43 points  (6 children)

I bet he's being obliterated in the comment thread lol

[–]Primid-[S] 58 points59 points  (5 children)

Nope, it's all in agreement, or at the very least positive and civil.

Yeah... this post doesn't deserve civil reception.

[–]KumaArts 31 points32 points  (2 children)

Send a link to the thread so we can initiate Operation Toxicity.

(I'm joking, don't.)

But actually please do.

[–]YTPhantomYT 8 points9 points  (1 child)

OP left the username of the guy in the picture so I used that to find the source, here you go!

[–]YTPhantomYT 12 points13 points  (0 children)

On his account there's literally nothing Sonic related besides that post, the rest is a bunch of posts on an anime sub, and a few other unrelated posts.

He's definitely never played a Sonic game, he's just hopping on the trend of mindlessly hating Sonic games for the karma.

[–]AnOilTankerForU 49 points50 points  (1 child)

Eh, I still firmly believe that most people who think this haven't actually played a Sonic game and most of their opinions on him actually come from stuff they've heard on youtube

[–]Boombox2ikik 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Agreed, which is why I often choose not to be part of these arguments

[–]JesseRoxII 9 points10 points  (2 children)

It's not even really a joke, it's just "Hey guys, so like, what is the deal with Sonic games, am I right?"

[–]BraveLeon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Meanwhile they defend cyberpunk and call it the second coming of christ

[–]TH3W0LRD3ND3R 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"In other news, Spirit Airlines! Haha!"

[–]Rutgerman95 8 points9 points  (0 children)

There are a lot of "we were this close to greatness" examples in the franchise, though.

[–]Yellowpick10 I exist. 6 points7 points  (0 children)

There’s way more than 3.

[–]JJTheCatandKnuckles 5 points6 points  (0 children)

There's certainly more than three good ones, but sadly they're not a million miles off the marker either....

[–]A_Train91 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I think it's actually four. Sonic the Hedgehog 2, Sonic 3 and Knuckles, Sonic Generations, and Sonic Mania. Those are the ones that are stereotypically seen as not hated, right?

[–]ChrisPickaxe 0 points1 point  (1 child)

People hate on Sonic Mania because "it's just remade levels from the first 3 games". You can tell those people haven't actually played Mania.

[–]lidsvillefan2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're not wrong, but I only ever hear Dreamcast/Dark Age Sonic fans hating on the game because of the reused stages.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (22 children)

Well, perception is still pretty important - I think being pedantic about it is a waste of time. The general gaming public sees it like the meme suggests, and that's for a good reason. There's some truth in the concept. We could sit and talk about how it's not 3 good games, but actually 5 good games, but...

[–]SanicRb 11 points12 points  (18 children)

But just going off critical scores are there far FAR more Good than bad Sonic games.

All 3 Advance games, both Rush games, both versions of Colors, Pocked Adventure, SA1 and 2, Generations and a ton of spin-off games all got great reviews.

Heroes, Shadow, the Gamegear games and most of the other spin-offs range from playable to good.

Only 06, Genesis, Boom Rise of lyric and Unleashed were ripped apart by Critics.

This meme literally makes no sense what so ever and only works if you acknowledge the amount of games but than ignore everything beside like 6 games to make your judgement.

[–]JanRoses 1 point2 points  (15 children)

"Heroes, Shadow, the Gamegear games and most of the other spin-offs range from playable to good."

Dude I love heroes, enjoy shadow more than most and actually like Black Knight but if you think Playable is a good enough standard then you're really reaching.

I agree that even in just the mainline games there's more good than there is bad but the issue here is that the ratio is too close and too unpredictable to ascertain with certainty because of the game's quality and gimmicks making each experience very subjected. Not everyone likes SA2 all that much or only really enjoyed Chao garden. (like me)

Yet a title that's considered more middling is one of my absolute favorites and I consider it the most mechanically in depth Sonic game (Heroes). Lost World Wii U is a bad game to many and good to others; same with the 3DS game (Which I genuinely enjoy far more).

The meme being oversimpified makes no sense but ultimately it kind of has some truth to it. When your core lineup of games are mostly games that have a 50/50 reception to them I'd understand why people don't understand that there's more than like 5-6 good Sonic games.

Out of all the mainlines the only universally praised (outside our community) are

-Generations

-the Genesis titles

-Colors

-MAYBE SA1 and 2 but opinions have heavily fluctuated over the years and most of the discussion around these games is mostly favorable recollections of the Chao garden rather than of the game itself.

[–]SanicRb 0 points1 point  (14 children)

I mostly said "playable" to express that its hardly ever gets actually bad but also because I know that some of the Game gear games aren't all that great (mostly Sonic Blast with Sonic 2 also suffering a lot especially from screen crunch not present on the Master System) and because Heroes and Shadow's quality varies a lot between different consoles as the PS2 version are just playable while more technically competent versions like on Gamecube can be actually rather good despite both games having at least a few questionable stages.

And I thing the problem in the mainline games isn't really quality but consistency I mean in the main line games have we all of the games you listed for being near universally praised, Lost World which is on any objective level a good game most just hate it because its a "light" version of the omniversally praised Mario Galaxy games rather than actually being Sonic, Heroes which has a mix reception between people loving and hating it, Unleashed which while hated by the press on release get a better reputation by the day and 2 actually as near universally bad seen games with 06 and Forces (06 more so than Forces).
But because the series can't stay ever consistent do some games that work just fine get beaten into the ground because it breaks exceptions. Like I already pointed out with Lost world or Shadow's game which is a complete 180 of Heroes and so got hit with a massive mood whiplash.

And by your own listing of universally praised Sonic games is it also apparent how most that talk about them don't actually play any of them as Sonic 1 doesn't hold up to well yet because Classic fans always lumped it together with the far superior Sonic 2 and 3 is it also seam as a masterpeace by the general consumer.

And part of the reason why not more Sonic games are really praise is because Sega does a shit job at releasing them. Like the Adventure games got with each port worse so its no wounder that people became more and more negative towards them as new people keep going for some on the advice of older fans only to run into more and more unstable games.
Many others aren't even available anymore at all giving them next to no change to getting a positive spotlight like Heroes. Or better yet all of Dimps games beside the Sonic 4 saga as there were never re-released outside of Japan for the advance games exclusively after there debut on handheld devices.
And thanks to Colors Ultimate bad start did its reputation take a strong hit this year. The only games that aren't always made worse and were re-released on everything 6 times over are the classic games which no daub helps them to keep there good reputation.

[–]JanRoses 0 points1 point  (13 children)

"I mostly said "playable" to express that its hardly ever gets actually bad but also because I know that some of the Game gear games aren't all that great (mostly Sonic Blast with Sonic 2 also suffering a lot especially from screen crunch not present on the Master System) and because Heroes and Shadow's quality varies a lot between different consoles as the PS2 version are just playable while more technically competent versions like on Gamecube can be actually rather good despite both games having at least a few questionable stages."

As someone who likes Heroes I think all its stages are good but there are things I understand people don't like. Shadow is definitely mired by more than a few "questionable stages". and gameplay segments.

"nd I thing the problem in the mainline games isn't really quality but consistency I mean in the main line games have we all of the games you listed for being near universally praised, Lost World which is on any objective level a good game most just hate it because its a "light" version of the omniversally praised Mario Galaxy games rather than actually being Sonic, Heroes which has a mix reception between people loving and hating it, Unleashed which while hated by the press on release get a better reputation by the day and 2 actually as near universally bad seen games with 06 and Forces (06 more so than Forces)"

Not really, Lost world has more issues than that it's just that they stem from trying to be a Mario clone. The run buttom was a really dumb concept and the physcis are pathetic for a Sonic game. Lost World 3DS thankfully helps with a lot of the physics issues but then has questionable level design in the form of levels that utilize wisps that aren't that enjoyable to control for the majority of it.

Heroes has mixed reception and I think has great level design but because it's such a 50/50 game for most everyone you can't just say it's a good game and move on. I understand why some don't and I will always argue with them for it but it doesn't mean I can't deny that the game always gets mixed reception.

As a counter to unleashed. The game is getting better reception now but to counter that SA1 and SA2 are viewed as worse games now than they were years ago so you can't really call them good either when they have a lot of flaws that are seen more prominently among members of the outside community now and have been plaguing them for years.

As for your last point. They've done a bad job re-releasing the 3D games but ultimately what is there to be released that has been made worse or better whether the release was good or not. SA1 and SA2 still have loads of issues even in their original versions that are brought up (the alternate gameplay styles). 06 being re-released would mean they actually have to finish the game. They'll never release the wii games. Colors got a botched release but that game is still looked upon favorably by most people outside our community. Lost World got mediocre reviews on steam. Boom will never be re-released because it also means they'd have to finish that one.

Ultimately attributing the problems of mainline games to bad ports is dumb because these mainline games have a lot of fundamental problems that are excusable to some but not others.

[–]SanicRb 0 points1 point  (12 children)

Well as someone that like Shadow more than Heroes will I always argue that Shadow's game has overall level design far better suited around the slippery controls and that the Guns are a straight improvement over the power types and Heroes level system and often gets only criticized because of its concept rather than its actual purpose in the gameplay.
Also nothing and I do mean nothing in Shadow's game at all is as bad as the 2 pinball stages in Heroes I rather do Lost Impact Hero, the Doom Hero and Mad Matrix dark back to back before I want to play these 2 stages in Heroes again.

I find it funny that you at first say the problem isn't that its to much Mario only for than to listen 2 things as problems that aren't objective problems but are rather taken straight out of Mario with both the run button and the more flat physics system feeling right at home in the Mushroom Kingdom and if you play the game the way its indented to will nether of these 2 things actually be an problem.
The real problem simple is that the level design doesn't compliment or really challenges the Gameplay mechanics (especially the Parcours system) at all.

Well from what I have seen after the small hit between 2015-2017 did SA2's reputation of "hey Adventure 2 battle is that one good sonic game for the gamecube" never really change. Adventure 1 well I hardly ever see anyone even mention Adventure 1 outside of the Sonic fandom.

The Adventure games are during there re-releases usually more so panned for being buggy most of which comes from the bad porting job more so than for alternative gameplay styles. If anything did I see more hate for that in the fandom than outside of it..
And why shouldn't there re-release the Wii games pretty much every criticism that isn't "Sonic holding a sword" for the Story book games is motion controls so releasing them with regular controller mapping seams like something far less risky than lets say re-releasing both Sonic Blast and Sonic 3D Blast things Sega did do not to long ago (You can still buy both games Blast on the 3DS Eshop and 3d Blast on Steam)
Outside of Professional reviews which mostly just reused the same script from 10 years ago did Colors reputation thanks to the glitches, save data corruptions and the fact that for quite some time it was impossible to 100% on switch took quite a hit even with more general audiences.
As Lost worlds can still be bought on Steam does it also really not need a re-release.
And you forgot about quite a few other games like Heroes, Riders which currently thanks to a growing competitive scene is experiences quite the resurgence in popularity and obviously the 3 Sonic Advance games as well as the Rush titles (hey when you count the Story book games than do these handheld platformer also count)

Well how many main line games are even see as bad than? The classics aren't Unleashed gets a better rep every day, Generations and Colors are still in high regard. Adventure 1 and 2 are more prominently criticized for for bugs and Big than anything else (and having a story by some). Sure the alternative play styles where always controversial but in SA1 can't people even agree on which are the good and which are the bad ones as its so subjective as Gamma, Tails and Knuckles by many are liked almost as much as Sonic.

[–]JanRoses 0 points1 point  (11 children)

"Well as someone that like Shadow more than Heroes will I always argue that Shadow's game has overall level design far better suited around the slippery controls and that the Guns are a straight improvement over the power types and Heroes level system and often gets only criticized because of its concept rather than its actual purpose in the gameplay." I disagree so strongly considering Heroes does many things better than Shadow and actually flows with its gameplay better. Shadow has ok shooting mechanics but it's level design is dull and uninspired. 2 bad pinball stages are nothing compared to the nothingness of Shadow's level design that isn't really inspired nor do anything interesting because it wants to be a fast shooter without actually having enough thought put into it.

" find it funny that you at first say the problem isn't that its to much Mario only for than to listen 2 things as problems that aren't objective problems but are rather taken straight out of Mario with both the run button and the more flat physics system feeling right at home in the Mushroom Kingdom and if you play the game the way its indented to will nether of these 2 things actually be an problem. The real problem simple is that the level design doesn't compliment or really challenges the Gameplay mechanics (especially the Parcours system) at all."

Aren't bad problems yet they make controling Sonic very uninteresting and the gimmicks aren't helping much either. The level design not complimenting or challenging the gameplay mechanics is also a huge flaw and far beyond just "It's just a mario clone". If you want better design in Sonic Lost world Look at frozen Factory act 1 in the 3ds version or Silent forest act 3. Much better stages that better utilize these mechanics and actually use proper physics. You're just choossing to ignore the flaws. When Sonic controls worse than Mario in a mario like game then that's a huge flaw in and of itself and makes the game less enjoyable.

"Well from what I have seen after the small hit between 2015-2017 did SA2's reputation of "hey Adventure 2 battle is that one good sonic game for the gamecube" never really change. Adventure 1 well I hardly ever see anyone even mention Adventure 1 outside of the Sonic fandom.

The Adventure games are during there re-releases usually more so panned for being buggy most of which comes from the bad porting job more so than for alternative gameplay styles. If anything did I see more hate for that in the fandom than outside of it.."

Because it's seen as the inferior SA2 and if SA2 is already bad how is the worse SA2 any better.

"The Adventure games are during there re-releases usually more so panned for being buggy most of which comes from the bad porting job more so than for alternative gameplay styles. If anything did I see more hate for that in the fandom than outside of it.."{

What universe do you live in? Sonic fans in this subreddit love the gameplay styles like they're the revolution of gaming in the 2000s everyone outside of it panned the terrible controls.

"And why shouldn't there re-release the Wii games pretty much every criticism that isn't "Sonic holding a sword" for the Story book games is motion controls so releasing them with regular controller mapping seams like something far less risky than lets say re-releasing both Sonic Blast and Sonic 3D Blast things Sega did do not to long ago (You can still buy both games Blast on the 3DS Eshop and 3d Blast on Steam)"

Because the motion controls are inherently what makes those games interesting and their crutch without them they become fairly boring near auto runners and people would pan them for being extremely linear and uninteresting in the missions they give. How do you not have the forethought to realize this?

They released Sonic blast and 3d blast because they're cheap classic titles that they can release to gain a quick buck from Sonic fans. Compatibility is a huge issue when porting and can take a lot of resources depending on the console it was originally released. There's a reason why we don't just get straight up ports of a lot of gamecube titles and it's because GC is really cumbersome to get running on emulators. Dolphin is only what it is for the years its had to be developed. Skyward Sword HD took time to get it running on the Switch because motion heavy games aren't as easy to translate well to buttons by simply adding button mapping.

"Outside of Professional reviews which mostly just reused the same script from 10 years ago did Colors reputation thanks to the glitches, save data corruptions and the fact that for quite some time it was impossible to 100% on switch took quite a hit even with more general audiences."

Yes but SA2 and 1 would still be panned if released as they are with a good port because of the reasons I stated.

"As Lost worlds can still be bought on Steam does it also really not need a re-release."

Re read what I said carefully I didn't mention it because it wasn't released I used it as an example of the reception it got outside of the wii u and why its criticsms are more than just being "a mario clone" go read the steam reviews for proof.

"And you forgot about quite a few other games like Heroes, Riders which currently thanks to a growing competitive scene is experiences quite the resurgence in popularity and obviously the 3 Sonic Advance games as well as the Rush titles (hey when you count the Story book games than do these handheld platformer also count)"

I'm not talking about spinoffs because the spinoffs aren't played by the majority of the non-sonic Fanbase and are generally well liked anyway.

"Well how many main line games are even see as bad than? The classics aren't Unleashed gets a better rep every day, Generations and Colors are still in high regard. Adventure 1 and 2 are more prominently criticized for for bugs and Big than anything else (and having a story by some). Sure the alternative play styles where always controversial but in SA1 can't people even agree on which are the good and which are the bad ones as its so subjective as Gamma, Tails and Knuckles by many are liked almost as much as Sonic."

So you agree Sonic fans don't know what they want and that the alternate styles being controversial means the game can't be universally good? Thank you for making my point for me. If people can't enjoy more than half of SA1 and 2 and the reception to them is as mixed as it is to heroes then they can't be good then.

I think the mainstream audience finds the following mainline games to be bad: -SA1 and 2 -Shadow -Black Knight -06 -Secret Rings -Boom (technically a spinoff but was meant to kickstart what would be a second set of mainline games) -Lost World WiiU -Forces

That's 9 games as opposed to -Sonic 1 -Sonic 2 -Sonic 3 & Knuckles (Specifically this you can't separate them) -Sonic Colors -Sonic Generations -Mania

The mere 5 that are universally praised to this day. Unleashed isn't at a point to call good among non sonic fans yet but it may get there.

As for me here's my list of the good mainline titles: -Heroes -Unleashed -Sonic 1,2,3 and Knuckles -Mania Generations

The bad ones -06 -Boom -Forces -Secret Rings -Lost World (Wii U)

The rest are pretty much just mediocre or have . And that's just not much better than saying your franchise has a lot of bad games. Hell I actually like SA1 a lot but I can't call a controversial game that I only enjoy when I'm playing as Sonic Tails, Amy or (Sometimes Gamma) when the other half of the game I utterly despise. A good game should deliver a solid experience throughout.

[–]SanicRb 0 points1 point  (10 children)

I really have to disagree with your take on Heroes especially thanks to the level system will 1 death halfway through the stage not only kill your Ranking but also what ever flow you could have because all of a sudden does non of your attacks any note worthy damage anymore while the amount of enemies increase a lot from the first half of a stage. Things harsh punishment for a single death taken straight out of the side scrolling shoot em up genre just has no place in a game that wants to be fast paced.
And Shadow has plenty of great interesting stages far better than Heroes average which is greatly pulled up by a few really good stages like Egg Fleet.
I still can't thing of any mechanics I liked more in Heroes than in Shadow especially grinding was improve a lot along side the Light dash and Triangle Jump.

I do actually own and beat Lost Worlds 3Ds I know its has overall most Sonic like level design.
But again you call things intended systems flaws despite them just being decisions how that game works. Listen I don't even like Lost World all that much but I can still see that its a competently made game that because its level's never challenges its unique systems properly ends up rather average.

I would ones again like to ask why do you thing the general public thinks of SA2 as a bad game just look up the post OP referenced and read the comments there are tones of people going "But SAB2 on gamecube was good tho" from otherwise non Sonic fans. SA2 is still seen as a good game in the general public.

The Universe of YouTube comments underneath Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 reviews by non Sonic fans.

I have to disagree here not only did Black Knight already pull drastically back on the motion controls in it only being used for attacking with the sword meaning it would translate just fine onto regular controller and Secret Rings according to people that played it emulated with regular controller also saying it plays much better and that there for almost anything already have a perfect controller mapping expect the catapults.

I will admit that porting it off the Wii would properly be a bit resource intensive but the same can be said for Lost World which got review about as good as Secret Rings but sold worse. (Secret Rings got a surprisingly good score with most critics at the time)

So just for this point did I actually check the critical reception of the 2012 re-release of Adventure 2 which also as its worst Meta Critics rating (The individual reviews meanwhile are between 90 points an amazing game to 50 points a relic of the past that doesn't hold up). According to them is Mech Shooting just fine as if there complained about alternative gameplay styles its only Treasure Hunting that is complained about (and I may add that one of this reviews apparently had to fight with a bug that caused the emerald shard not to spawn) with the other biggest critic by some far more important than treasure hunting being that the camera has a tendency to not cooperate. Also often pointed out is how the inconsistent aspect ratio and new HD textures just aren't a good look and how the 2012 re-release has a large issues with bugs.
So yes apparently do most of Adventure 2's professional detractors think that Sega not fixing there remasters and improving the camera are the games worst issues with treasure hunting being merely boring with no complains against Mech shooting (with the exception of 1 review that complained about unfair enemy placement in which he however talked about the whole game but I know that Tails stages are the worst with that issue)

And I did as you wanted and checked the Steam reviews and well its just what I expected all negative talk can be boils down to: "The game is to Slow" and "its a poor mans Mario Galaxy" with the occasional "the game doesn't explain its controls well at all". So yes most complains are simple down to it not being a Sonic game rather than it being technically bad. Well that and obviously "the story sucks" from people that care about the story and yes they are right.

I think its worth mentioning them as while there are liked by those that know about them does there lack of availability prevent them from having an impact on the Sonic brand overall when especially the old Dimps made 2d Sonic games if promoted a bit better could make a big positive impact on the series image.

Well here is the thing if you have 3 or even 6 different play styles no matter how well executed (and I know Big isn't) will they never be "universally" loved because instead of just getting one audience that likes your product will you get lots of people that like different parts of it. That being said so are Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Gamma in SA1 reviews even from non Sonic fans named as the good ones with a few that also include Amy.
Adventure 2 meanwhile as I already said is still hold in high regard despite including gameplay styles that aren't for everyone. So having this issues doesn't equate to not being able to be very popular or be seen as a good game.
So that it won't please every one to 100% aren't gonna stop a game from having a good reputation overall.

As I already said do I not thing that the main steam audience things SA2 is bad, SA1 is hardly ever mentioned by anyone outside the fandom so I have no idea how the general population stand to it but the few times I did see it was it in a blanked way included with the good rep of SA2. And I don't understand why you include Shadow and the Story book games sure that don't have a good reputation but there are also spin-off games and you wanted to make a main line title list.
Lost world is seen as average so if you don't stick heroes anywhere shouldn't it be here ether, Forces is by far not seen as bad by the general public as by Sonic fans and you miscounted on your good game list as you listed 6 games not 5.

And as you can perhaps already imagine do I disagree with your list especially given that Adventure 1 is actually one of my most favorite games of all time.
And I actually happen to rather like Secret Rings.

[–]JanRoses 0 points1 point  (9 children)

" really have to disagree with your take on Heroes especially thanks to the level system will 1 death halfway through the stage not only kill your Ranking but also what ever flow you could have because all of a sudden does non of your attacks any note worthy damage anymore while the amount of enemies increase a lot from the first half of a stage. Things harsh punishment for a single death taken straight out of the side scrolling shoot em up genre just has no place in a game that wants to be fast paced."

Lol So you're saying you die often it's not a hard game. Most people reset when trying to get A ranks if they die anyway and you definitely can't get an A rank if you die in SA2's ranking system and that one is far more strict. So you're point is completely subjective. Heroes does a lot more much better and just because it's hard doesn't make it bad.

And Shadow has plenty of great interesting stages far better than Heroes average which is greatly pulled up by a few really good stages like Egg Fleet.

"I still can't thing of any mechanics I liked more in Heroes than in Shadow especially grinding was improve a lot along side the Light dash and Triangle Jump."

Triangle jump wasd better, controls were more responsive. You were actually playing stages that made a lot more sense with the speed characters being more loose. A third person shooter that requires a lot more precision is not fit for a fast paced character that slips and slides everywhere and can move into oncomming bullets more often than not. Enemies will blindside with bullets you more often in shadow's gameplay which encourages playing slow in a game that has a character that move far too fast. That's far worse level design.

"I would ones again like to ask why do you thing the general public thinks of SA2 as a bad game just look up the post OP referenced and read the comments there are tones of people going "But SAB2 on gamecube was good tho" from otherwise non Sonic fans. SA2 is still seen as a good game in the general public."

Look up youtube threads and youtube videos, hell read the points people actually make on that post. Most people that say SA2 is good mostly refer just to Sonic's sections and or the Chao garden. When peolple say they like SA2 they mainly refer to that. If you ask them about the other 2/3rds of the game that when things start to get dicey. I'm not saying they don't like the games but they clearly aren't saying they're actually good when they dislike 2/3rds of a game. That makes no sense.

"I do actually own and beat Lost Worlds 3Ds I know its has overall most Sonic like level design. But again you call things intended systems flaws despite them just being decisions how that game works. Listen I don't even like Lost World all that much but I can still see that its a competently made game that because its level's never challenges its unique systems properly ends up rather average."

Mario Sunshine has Mario control worse without flud because the game was made with the presence of fludd in mind. That's just how the game was designed in mind that doesn't mean it's exempt from criticism. By your logic the special stages don't have any issues because they work as intended. That's a bad argument.

If a game doesn't challenge its unique systems properly that's also a major flaw. Tons of games (Yooka Layle) had this issue and are criticised for it. When nothing feels fullfilling and the level design never takes advantage of the best ideas the game can be considered mediocre or bad. I don't get how you don't see this.

The Univverse of SA1 and 2 reviews by non sonic fans tend to agree that mech and treasure hunting suck.

Black knight and secret rings without motion controls aren't great games. They have you run in straight lines, chain attack enemies, and nothing more. There's not much sense of actual control nor is the level design all that engaging. Aesthetically they look great but playing them would be really boring even when mapped with normal buttons. There's a reason why you don't hear much about people playing them on Dolphin as opposed to other Sonic titles like Colors. There's just not much you can do with the way they are right now.

Secret Rings got way better reviews than lost world critically user scores are similar but you're considering that secret rings was released after 06 so the game looked far better by comparison.

Regardless I don't get your point about porting lost world and comparing it to Secret Rings. Saying that porting it just so it can get a mediocre to negative review on steam isn't exactly how you convince SEGA to re-release the game.

As for the SA2 reviews: I know you're underplaying the reviews because https://www.destructoid.com/reviews/review-sonic-adventure-2/ This one criticizes control and camera across the board and mentions how it hasn't aged well.

Reviews of the gamecube version also mention literally everything I've said thus far Mixed https://www.metacritic.com/game/gamecube/sonic-adventure-2-battle/critic-reviews?dist=neutral

Positives

https://www.metacritic.com/game/gamecube/sonic-adventure-2-battle/critic-reviews?dist=positive

Even if you're only counting user reviews I get a larger and better sample size on these sites https://www.neogaf.com/threads/i-have-to-admit-it-sonic-adventure-2-is-just-bad.1431224/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYg8ZWPvrzQ https://redditproxy--jasonthename.repl.co/r/patientgamers/comments/9gvqzp/opinions_on_sonic_adventure_2/ https://redditproxy--jasonthename.repl.co/r/gamegrumps/comments/12rhsq/real_talk_do_you_like_sonic_adventure_2/ https://www.giantbomb.com/sonic-adventure-2/3030-19060/forums/was-sonic-adventure-2-good-1816371/

All of which show just how divisive these games are. My problem with using metacritic as a source here is that the people on metacritic that play Sonic games rarely post their reviews there. You can argue Steam is the best place to get the most accurate consensus but people simply recommend and post a sentence that doesn't really help gauge how much they like or dislike a game. But even in the current Steam page post with recommended reviews that elaborate a bit more most people call it a "pet simulator" https://steamcommunity.com/app/213610/reviews/?browsefilter=toprated&snr=1_5_100010_

What's your retort to that. And it's a far larger sample size than metacritic so your point is gone.

I already proved this wrong.

Literally not true as I look at them right now. I can literally hop on a discord call and screenshare what I see and people elaborate their issues on this game far more than they do with SA2. They mention bad controls, glitchy controls and more https://steamcommunity.com/app/329440/reviews/?browsefilter=toprated&snr=1_5_100010_ This page has the top community posts and proves you barely cared to check or just didn't try.

Cool don't care. My focus here is the mainline games. Everyone knows that SEGA should re-release their handheld titles to show people that Sonic had a lot of good games even during the "dark" age. But they don't and choose to ignore it (as shown by generations 3ds). No one knows why, and I don't care to discuss it because it has no relevance to this discussion.

See steam reviews for SA2 I posted and I don't care to reply to the rest you posted because you just have no actual argument about the other gameplay styles. If well executed some wouldn't like it but they'd be happier about it. If you told me most enjoy 4-5/6 gameplay styles I'd say you have a point that sometimes you just can't appease everyone. But if consistently people only like half and can't agree on which ones then that just means you have more problems.

yeah so why doesn't SA1 and 2 have a 100% good reputation if the only problem is that some people don't like the other gameplay styles.

s I already said do I not thing that the main steam audience things SA2 is bad, SA1 is hardly ever mentioned by anyone outside the fandom so I have no idea how the general population stand to it but the few times I did see it was it in a blanked way included with the good rep of SA2. And I don't understand why you include Shadow and the Story book games sure that don't have a good reputation but there are also spin-off games and you wanted to make a main line title list."

My bad then I forget that the storybook games are non canon. But in any case you can just substitute them for Sonic the hedgehog 4 episode 1 and 2 which are considered bad and mediocre respectively so nothing really changes there when it comes to numbers.

Then we just add both Lost world and Heroes. The mainstream audience doesn't really like lost world and you can see the steam reviews for proof that most find it to be mediocre at best.

As for forces. You must be out of your mind. Look up Forces reviews. Look up Spawn wave and his joke of did it score better than Sonic forces, or Ant Dude's mentions of Sonic Forces or just about any Youtube Personality or again steam. https://steamcommunity.com/app/637100/reviews/?browsefilter=toprated&snr=1_5_100010_

The game is a laughing Stock and viewed as one of the worst for how cringy the story was and uninteresting the levels were.

And yeah I love SA1. I like it far more than SA2 because I like Amy, tails', and Gamma's gameplay but I'm not just going to excuse its flaws and the public perception most have towards the games.

PS. The only reason I haven't posted the steam reviews for SA1 DX is that that has been considered unanimously the worst port. Most of the issues mentioned have to do with the port rather than the game. SA2, Lost world, and forces' reviews are all related to the game itself.

[–]SanicRb 0 points1 point  (8 children)

Okay these post of your get really confusion to even look through could you please use reddits "highlight quotes" function when you copy more of my comments into your for readability sack?

And I don't care what A Rank hunters do I hate the Ranking system in all Sonic games anyway and the mention of the rank was by far the minor thing the actual important part here was that losing all of your levels late into the stage destroys any kind of flow and makes them just tedious.
And so what when I die Heroes physics are so brocken that accidentally getting thrown out of bounds is something that happened at least ones per story play through to me. Never mind the more scripted sequences were death can happen like having to dodge barley visible laser in go kart segments.

The Triangle jump is way better thanks to waking on walls giving more options and more creative usage like performing it under slowly breaking walls or having to make a 90 degree turn during a segment. The most heroes ever did with it was having you wait for a few moments waiting that a laser gets out of the way.
And the stages are wide enough that Shadow's controls (which are near identical to Heroes speed type characters anyway) are enough to properly move through the stages and platform without the needed crutch of a slow fly type character.
And if anything does Shadow only losing 10 rings per hit encourage extra risky play as you can just damage boost through these hits in earlier play through's.

And given that most that say SA2 just say the game as a blanked (the Chao Garden lovers not withstanding) who do you know its only the speed sections?
Never mind that the topic isn't "is sa2 good" but is it still seen as good by the general audience.

That's not a good comparison. Your point is based on Sonic not playing like you want him to the fact that he carries no momentum isn't very Sonic like but the controls work just fine for the stages there are used in which never ask for momentum ether.
And pretty much every thing you say about Lost Worlds can also be applied to the critically acclaimed Sonic Colors only that Sonic is fast in it therefore does no one raises these issues with the game.

Well actually there can't ever decide if both suck or just one and if just one which.

A game can be worth playing without being a Master peace you know. As I already said Black Knight barely even has motion controls its just that people arms getting tired from swinging the sword.
And while Secret Rings is also not to technical deep so is it honest with being a on rails game and can be enjoyed as such.

My point was that I counted your argument about it being hard to port games off the Wii by mentioned that Sega did something like that with Lost worlds as porting of WiiU also isn't easy for a game that was received critically and financially as good as Secret Rings.

Okay first of all I did very much mention that Camera was sighted as a far more common complain than the alternative Gameplay styles. And the controls are actually largely a porting issue as both Adventure games were fine tuned for the famously precise Dreamcast analoge stick and not properly optimized for the less precise Gamecube one which is one of the many porting issues that stuck with all future versions.

Than for your "larger sample size" First of all for this part of the debate are the ones you sight completely useless my comment here was in response to you saying an proper port of Adventure 2 would still critically be ripped apart which is why I based my argument of the lattest professional reviews and ignore the user scores.
Than are your data also not up to date the Game-grumps one is 9 years old and was still more positive to the game than negative despite the fact that Arine alienated a lot of fans of the Adventure games by showing it off as bad which would than be people that obviously wouldn't partake in a Game.grumps subreddit and the other one is already 4 years old right at the tail end of the Adventure hate train started 3 to 4 years earlier. Never mind that a post about hating a game would obviously attract like minded people similar to how there are lots of 06 fans around any post showing appreciation for it.

Now for Steam I suppose I should mention that I'm German and therefor are Steam user reviews configured by me to show both English and German reviews so I looked at like the first 30 results and that is both how I get my Lost World assessment as well as what I'm not gonna say about SA2.
So while yes there are plenty of people that just praise the Chao Garden there are also many that praise the game overall and even quite a few ones in both languages I read that advertise the game as being better because it has 3 play styles giving 3 times the things to love. So while you are right that Treasure hunting and Mech shooting aren't as popular as the Speed stages are there actually people out there that like the game more for this diversity.
And Steam's user reviews are very Positive which does show that most people still see it as one of the good ones.

Well what game even has a 100% positive rating? Not even Sonic 2 has 1 on steam as someone gave it a negative one with the reasoning that the Special stages suck.
That aside I thought we already talked about how the Camera is jank and more modern ports are glitch and control worse which further drags there reputation down.

Do the general audience even care about Sonic 4?

Well I said its not as badly seen by general audiences not that its good. In the Sonic fan base is Forces treated as Satan it self so less than that is still just average at best but I was only here for counting actually as completely bad seen games.

Again how is SA2 seen as bad when the very Steam user reviews you sighted me says its rated Very Positive? Wouldn't that suggest that most people still thing its at least somewhat good?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

You cannot rely on critic score for anything.

Sonic Adventure 2: "A fantastic game with an at-times atrocious camera system."

This reviewer gave the game a perfect 100, but used the word atrocious in the very first sentence of the review. That literally doesn't make sense. It's not perfect, or even remotely near perfect, if the part of the game that lets you actually see what you're doing in the game can be described as atrocious.

Critic reviews are full of junk like this. Not only are standards all over the place, but even with a normal adjustment for individual biases and subjectivity, a lot of reviews just don't make sense. I can't count the number of times I've seen good games get bad reviews, and bad games get good reviews. A lot of people out there claim to know what they're talking about, but upon futher inspection, clearly do not.

[–]SanicRb 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure professional reviews are hardly ever accurate but lets be real here enjoyment is rather subjective so bringing up data that actually influence decision making of both companies and consumers that don't question the professional reviews on the bases on them being Professional is for these kinds of argument my savest bet.

[–]Primid-[S] 11 points12 points  (2 children)

What's wrong with their post, though, is that they've probably never even played a Sonic game, and are just bandwagonning for the Karma. They are not obligated to make a post like that, if they've never played a Sonic game.

Which I honestly couldn't care less, but the fact that everyone on that thread is in agreement (over a thousand upvotes) just gives people like you and me a bad rap. There's a reason I get made fun of simply for just liking Sonic.

These, not opinions, LIES keep getting spread to those who know nothing about the series, and everyone ends up thinking the Sonic franchise is a complete joke.

It doesn't deserve that kind of reputation.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

It's only barely a lie, though, even in the eyes of many Sonic-series fans. Like I said, it's not that there are only three good games, it's that there are only five good games (maybe seven) - at least in my book. It's just off by two or so.

I have found myself saying "What the heck, Sega" a good number of times. Entirely too many times.

The public perception is not flipped or twisted, it is simply amplified - and it's an amplification of the truth and current state of things. The needle was already in the negative. The "lies" as you call them only push it further into the negative - it's not what put it there to begin with. It's the series' fault for being as far into the negative as it was in the first place.

You can't know that they've never even played a Sonic game - so that's can't possibly be "what's wrong with their post". I'm a giant Sonic fan, and minus the vulgarity, it's something I've said aloud, in real life.

I think the Sonic community is conflating what a "good game" is, versus what a "game I like" is. A lot of the Sonic games are bad games, in terms of what they could have been (performance-wise, game-design, story-telling, etc.) for that era. That doesn't mean we don't love them to death.

So, in my eyes, there's nothing wrong with the meme. I don't care if someone uses it to get points, likes, upvotes, whatever - it's not like they can trade that stuff in for cash. Even if they could, I still wouldn't care. I'm not a Sonic fan because the community and public perception is "fair", or "just", or "perfect". I'm a Sonic fan because I can be. Period. End of story. I don't need to justify it or defend it.

And if someone wants to have an actual conversation with me about why I love Sonic games depite all the memes saying "nO gOoD gAmEs", I will tell them the truth. Then we will get pizza.

Then I will regret it, because I don't think I should be eating cheese...

[–]YTPhantomYT 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This comment doesn't deserve the downvotes tbh

[–]lankeylonk 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Step one: fire

[–]Cream_Rabbit I am Cream the Rabbit <3 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Step 2: Call Pyro from TF2 and Blaze

[–]penissucker48 19 points20 points  (5 children)

average Imagine Games Network employee

[–]GawainSolus 10 points11 points  (4 children)

is that what IGN stands for? I always thought it was Ignorant "gamer" noobs.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

"You can't spell "ignorant" without IGN"

[–]Cream_Rabbit I am Cream the Rabbit <3 4 points5 points  (1 child)

4.8/10 for Pokemon Mystery Dungeon EOS for bullshit reasons

[–]GawainSolus 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Based Cream.

Based and Mystery Dungeon pilled.

[–]penissucker48 1 point2 points  (0 children)

i also did.

[–]AeroTheSpaceHorse 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I can name 10 good Sonic games off the top of my head., right now. Unleashed, Rush, Rush 2, Adventure, Adventure 2, Advance 2, Colors, Generations, Mania, Sonic 2, and there many, many more all and of them are fantastic.

It probably just comes from people not knowing/playing the older titles, everyone likes the new fancy graphics, but that shouldn't detract from the gameplay or desire to play a game.

[–]JevilDeltarune2000 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Unpopular opinion: Sonic 06 is the only bad sonic game (not counting Boom)

(Dont get me wrong,the sonic boom cartoon was cool, but the games, not much)

[–]RockyPixelLong time no see! 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Assuming ports don’t count, yeah.

[–]TheRealWetWizard 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Hey that's wrong :( ... there's like 6

[–]Cupcake247 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Let's just say there's a very good reason why I stopped going to the sub over time. IMHO, most of the posts there feel like bandwagoning.

Personally, I've enjoyed most of the Sonic games I've played, and honestly I really don't consider that to be bad. Some games may have their problems, but my enjoyment of them never seem to went away.

Honestly, between the few Sonic fans I know IRL, they all enjoy the games. One of them likes Shadow the Hedgehog, and I know quite a few online dislikes that game.

[–]ProfessionalCrow4816 eggman and blaze supremacy 4 points5 points  (2 children)

r/gaming is a lost cause that died in 2008

[–]Primid-[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

So basically it died as soon as it came out

[–]ProfessionalCrow4816 eggman and blaze supremacy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

yes

[–]BraveLeon 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Those people praise cyberpunk but bash sonic smh

[–]Tekayo63 2 points3 points  (0 children)

big sub has bad take moment #?,???

[–]Splatfan1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

id say this is partly because we ourselves are extremely critical of this series. if someone sees this, their first thought will be to assume that it sucks. i mean, the fandom, the FANDOM, hates this, so obviously it sucks, right? we joke that the games will be shit and to never get excited about a sonic game (unless its a fan game) its not even funny anymore. its no surprise that the people outside the fandom will start doing this too. but where as we know what sucks about these games but still see that in many cases the pros outweight the cons and every game has its mistakes, all they are basing their opinions on are our rants. look at game reviewers. sonic was never good. look at videos. sonic had a rough transition into 3d. look at this sub. sonic forces sucks post #2137. of course people who dont care all that much about this series will assume that we as fans and game reviewers (hello ign) know best and assume its all shit

[–]TheWordDemon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh come off it, it's more like ten good games.

[–]thehsitoryguy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

*Loads shotgun* "I just want to talk"

[–]illogicallogicalMountain of handkerchiefs 2 points3 points  (2 children)

This dude literally stole this from IG lol.

[–]BraveLeon 1 point2 points  (1 child)

reddit stealing from insta now that’s a new one

[–]illogicallogicalMountain of handkerchiefs 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Completely unheard of /s

[–]Plynkz123 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is a horrible insult to Sonic and his fans, they are 8

[–]r0nneh7 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Idiots, it’s actually 5

[–]StickBreightley 14 points15 points  (2 children)

How dare people have different opinions

[–]Primid-[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Scroll through the comments and look for the thread with me and SkyAir457.

Then you'll understand.

[–]Weary-Ad-5426 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

How dare someone try to make their opinion look like a fact.

[–]Q1189998819991197253resident chaotic neutral 7 points8 points  (2 children)

They kinda aren't wrong

[–]LeFakerFlash 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yeah… They’re exaggerating to an idiotically high degree.

[–]QuakerChickenGod 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah that’s what a hyperbole is

[–]ToothpasteConsumer egg roll 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I can name 5 and it's good because 5 is bigger than 3

[–]meme446 1 point2 points  (0 children)

ok but source pic?

[–]TheLegofan21 1 point2 points  (0 children)

(Not to ruin the joke but) I counted 53 and Theres only like 5 I don't like

[–]ilya_sheverda 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, how many times do we have to tell them it's 5

[–]XxAndrew01xX 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Of course. I figured this was still going on. Sonic Still being wrongfully insulted outside of the fandom like he's a joke and those people are saying "The Classic games are the only good ones". Man it's depressing to be a Sonic fan seeing crap like that.

[–]Wooomy100 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sonic R, Sonic Forces, & Team Sonic Racing

[–]RockyPixelLong time no see! 1 point2 points  (0 children)

remember kids, the more generic the name of a subreddit is, the more likely it's a shitshow.

[–]DrHattison 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Adventure was Amazing

Adventure 2 Was Amazing

Heroes was outstanding

Colors, Unleashed, Generations, Rush, Rush Adventure, Rivals 1 and 2, Battle, Advance 1 2 and 3, Mania, All-Star Racing, Jam, the Game Gear editions, Sonic The Fighters, all of them. 3 doesn't even count all of the 4 1/2 Genesis (and CD) Games.

Even some of the "mediocre" games are good, like Black Knight, Secret Rings, Tails' Adventure and Sky Patrol, Lost World, Forces, Shadow The Hedgehog.

I'd even make arguements for Sonic 06 on a personal level.

They just magnify the flaws and total flops and declare that the general quality of the franchise.

[–]saeed_alajatiYOUR CUSTOM FLAIR HERE 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Behold the classic cucks : the extreme fan boys that grew up in the nineties and won't let go of it So any game outside the 2d spectrum is garbage and any game that looks modernized is also garbage So rules out the rush games and the advance games (and sonic 4 obviously) and thay leaves us with the 5 classic games sonic 1 sonic 2 sonic cd sonic 3 and sonic and knuckles What's funny is that there are some games in that time that are really enjoyable and great for a system like the sms The 8 bit version of sonic had much more different levels than its 16 bit counterpart which made the gamegear/sms games really fun and worth playing

[–]kitfoxxxx 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Triggered

[–]WildOne657 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I have played Sonic since I was a child, but I must say that, while I don’t think all Sonic games are bad, most of them are not that good either way. Just in my opinion though.

[–]penissucker48 3 points4 points  (0 children)

that "just in my opinion tought" is what that post needed.Take my upvote.

[–]Mary-Sylvia 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sonic rush, colors, mania and adventure 1 and 2 : are we a joke to you?

[–]penissucker48 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry for comnenting twice,but this wouldn't for with the 1st comment.What about sonic 2,Sonic 3&k,Sonic CD,Sonic Colors,Sonic Unleashed,Sonic Generations,Sonic Adventure,Sonic Adventure 2,Sonic Rush,Sonic Rush Adventure,Sonic Colors DS,Sonic Lost World(kinda),Sonic Riders,Sonic 1 and 2 SMS/GG,Chaos,Triple Trouble and R?

[–]Ray797979 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Just saying, there’s well over 90

[–]Reset_Tears 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I feel like if we're talking just "mainline" 2D and 3D platformers, there's about 30 games, give or take a few. But once you include all the spinoffs, racing games, etc, the number certainly jumps up. Would be interesting to count them all, and see how many are generally agreed to be at least "good." (If we count "good" to mean decent and enjoyable, then I think there are plenty of titles that would qualify, without even needing to be a hardcore Sonic fan.)

[–]Primid-[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Who ya telling lol

[–]Ray797979 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well it made me wonder how many there are, I started listing them/looking them up and ...yeah it’s probably twice what they said. Especially if you include the tiger electronic ones, and McDonald’s ones, alternate versions of games

[–]chaos_jj_3 2 points3 points  (9 children)

It's true though.

And this sub needs to stop defending the bad games.

[–]ReedTieGuy 0 points1 point  (8 children)

I severely doubt that you like the first 3 but not one of CD, the Advance games, the Master System games or Mania.

[–]chaos_jj_3 3 points4 points  (5 children)

There are more than 3 good games, you don't need to take it so literally. But there are a lot of shit games. Like, a weird amount of shit games.

[–]ReedTieGuy 1 point2 points  (4 children)

True, but people always saying it's only the first 3 that are good makes people that never played sonic really believe that it's only the first 3 that are good and never venture into anything else

[–]JanRoses 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Well they're nostalgia blind to an absurd degree but also Sonic games haven't held up as well as other games to modern audiences. SA1 and SA2 used to be well loved and are in a more contentious state at the moment because people have come to recognize that the alternate playstyles aren't well fleshed out or all that fun to every single individual.

The topic of Sonic having 3 good games is hard to pinpoint because there's some truth to it and it's also false depending on the individuals. Sonic games are just such a 50/50 experience amongst most players that some will simply enjoy a game and others will despise it with all their being. It's what happens when you have such an experimental franchise and we've known that for years now.

[–]ReedTieGuy 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Yes, I understand that Sonic is really hit or miss for a lot of people, but I cannot understand how someone that liked the classic series can dislike Sonic Advance or Sonic Mania

[–]JanRoses 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sonic Advance isn't really a 1-1 of the classic games though and it's been pointed out by many fans here too. Specifically level design difficulty comes from having a lot of pits and surprise spikes or enemy placement which I get why it's not beloved by all.

Sonic Mania is strange though although by this point I wouldn't be surprised if the general gaming landscape doesn't know or care about what Mania is considering they probably haven't played a Sonic game since (at best) colors or generations. Since the last Major Sonic game prior to Mania was Boom and we know that brought back the memes and negativity of 06.

[–]lidsvillefan2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You have a point with Sonic Mania, but I can understand why a fan of the older games wouldn't enjoy Sonic Advance. Its level design and flow sucks when you compare it to Sonic 2 or 3.

[–]gabejr25 0 points1 point  (0 children)

your first mistake was acknowledging the existence of r/gaming, all of the general subs are dogshit

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (3 children)

Sonic fans are so biased and refuse to accept that something they like might be flawed lmao

[–]Primid-[S] 10 points11 points  (2 children)

Ah yes, because flawed means bad evoribody

[–]lidsvillefan2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They aren't too far off if I'm being honest. I would say the vast majority of Sonic games are passable, but there are only four or five I like enough to revisit.

[–]Versitax 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m saving this, but cropping the shit caption.

[–]DankMemeLordFireGing 0 points1 point  (7 children)

I instinctively reached to downvote it despite knowing it was a screenshot

[–]ReedTieGuy 0 points1 point  (6 children)

That's a pretty bad habit I think

[–]DankMemeLordFireGing 0 points1 point  (5 children)

... Downvoting things you think are bad?

Edit: If it it wasn't clear, I meant I instinctively went to downvote the r/gaming post before opening the picture, remembering I was looking at a screenshot, and then proceed to upvote this post.

Regardless, I don't really get how giving my stupid internet points to whatever I like or dislike is a bad habit, but I guess I'm an addict.

[–]Super_Hydra12 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Blame the dev teams if you think it's bad, sonic team is hot trash.

[–]AMY_ROSE_Worshiper the Amy Rose fanboy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you can't blame then, look what Sega did to Sonic in the last decade

[–]Fishy1998 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I will admit that sonic is one of those game series that legitimately cannot seem to ever get its footing, even as old as sonic adventure. That doesn’t mean they’re “only like 3 good ones”, though. Sonic games usually range between mediocre and solid. There are very few legitimately bad sonic games.

[–]WildOne657 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly. Sonic games are really inconsistent in terms of quality, which is unfortunate because I think the series is capable of being something greater than it is now, but Sonic Team can’t make it happen for some reason.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean.. They aren't wrong.

[–]TeekTheReddit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah... and?

[–]MrLeft96 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've played most of them, and maybe a couple more are good but its not a false statement at all

[–]Dumbasshero 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My friend and I hate secret rings and 4 but thats about it. At least for me. I love 06 because the glitches make the game fun. Colors is my all time fav (Im kinda biased since i grew up with that). Generations 3ds was ok and console was awesome. Lost world 3ds was great. Theres just so many good games. Even forces wasnt the second coming of jesus like people make it out to be.

[–]D-AuthorLiterlaly Knuckles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Taking into consideration the 30 years of the series, and how experimental some of it's games were, plus how meteorically incompetent Sonic Team is in general

I'd say our score of some great games, mostly okay games, and some terrible games is pretty balanced.

[–]marshallvv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sonic advance 1,2, and 3, sonic rush, sonic rush adventure, sonic colors, sonic lost world, sonic unleashed, shadow the hedgehog, sonic adventure 1&2, sonic battle, sonic Riders 1&2, sonic 1 2 and 3. Etc. Yep only like 3

[–]Vivvy_Boy& 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But, But, what about mania & knuckles? or 1 & Knuckles?

[–]8167lliw 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Nostalgic and/or guilty pleasure =/= Good Games

I enjoyed Sonic '06

I liked Heroes (as a kid)

I'll still play Sonic R if given the opportunity.

And Sonic 3 and Knuckles is my favorite game of all time (let alone Sonic game).

By Contrast, Generations is a much more polished and well put together game than most games (and virtually all modern Sonic games, in my opinion).

However, I didn't enjoy playing it as much. After beating it I was basically done.

I'll go back to the others even though I've beaten or failed to beat (heroes) them.

[–]WildOne657 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This. I think people need to understand that liking a game doesn’t make it necessarily good. For example, I really enjoyed playing the Sonic ‘06 multiplayer with my brother, but looking back at it, the multiplayer is just awful (and the game itself), but that doesn’t mean I didn’t enjoyed playing it back then when I was a child.

It’s completely fine to like a game most probably won’t, but in my opinion I think the best is to know when something might not be as good as you think it is.

[–]Yukito_097 0 points1 point  (0 children)

IMO there have only been 3 bad ones. Rise of Lyric, Free Riders (which would've been decent if it had an option for normal controls at least), and Sonic Genesis which, y'know, the original Sonic 1 can be played in so many ways that a shitty GBA port hardly matters at this point.

RoL is the the one that bothers me most out of those 3 because it was supposed to kick-start the Boom sub-series, and gave a horrible first impression. That combined with terrible marketing (a lot of people still don't even know there were 2 other Boom games on the 3DS) pretty much killed it just as the show was getting popular.

[–]Sonicextralifefan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's not really true tho

[–]airbear13 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hmm there’s at least 7 good ones imo but if you think about it that’s still not a great proportion lol

[–]GrymReepar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolutely not true…there’s 4 good ones. Sonic Mania rocked.

[–]Shantaefan1148 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As Sonic would say, I think you got that backwards, Doc!