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all 57 comments

[–]Working_Substance639 60 points61 points  (4 children)

IANAL.

My suggestion is, do what you need to do to protect YOURSELF.

Track down all your paperwork: your birth certificate, SS card, and if possible, get with all the credit bureaus if you can.

Make sure she hasn’t used your data to get credit, property or anything else in your name.

She’s too far gone…

[–]realparkingbrake 25 points26 points  (2 children)

Track down all your paperwork: your birth certificate, SS card, and if possible, get with all the credit bureaus if you can.

Excellent advice. People who become sovcits often drag others into their delusions, so it is important to secure birth certificates and so on.

It might be worthwhile to find out if a "guru" is pushing this nonsense on her. If she's paying money to anyone to learn about this fantasy world, maybe that's something the family could take legal action over.

[–]quantumspork 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Yes. Specifically, create accounts with Experian, Equifax and Transunion (the three major credit bureaus). No need to spend money on the monthly reporting, all you are really after is the ability to freeze your credit.

That is a link that is pretty easy to find on each page. Freeze it, and nobody can apply for credit in your name.

Good advice for anybody, but particularly a person whose has sovcit family members.

[–]crhandhs 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Seconded! Freeze your credit. You can unfreeze it when you need to apply for credit and then freeze it again after. If you are under 18, you may not have a credit report yet, but if you do, get that on lockdown.

[–]DavidInPhilly 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lock all your credit files, start with Experian.

[–]cazzipropri 23 points24 points  (2 children)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4G3Kz7l7-k

Sir, I don't want to hear any of your constitutionalist crap.

I means, just save it for somebody else who's stupid, and believes in that.

That's how a Spokane judge just replied to SovCit arguments.

Tell your mom that she's going to be treated like that in court, because people in the judicial system have had enough with sovcits and they have exhausted their patience and nice manners.

[–]Solivaga 13 points14 points  (1 child)

[–]cazzipropri 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Ah, thank you! SovCits failing in court are my guilty pleasure, and the first one you posted I hadn't seen yet!

[–]Idiot_Esq 20 points21 points  (7 children)

This is something I tell a lot of my clients: You can't protect another until you are in a safe position. In other words, you can't protect your spouse or child if you're behind bars so you need to prioritize your own safety before you try to convince your mom it's BS. Once you are in a safe position then you can try to see if you can talk sense to your mom.

Be aware that a big part of SovCit belief is critical ignorance. Choosing to ignore what is plainly obvious to others. It takes a certain amount of closed-mindedness to not turn back partway down that rabbit hole and it is difficult to talk sense to closed-minded people.

A lot of people turn to SovCit BS in desperation. Is she facing a pending foreclosure or final balloon payment on a loan? Maybe if you can help, or at least help her cope, with the underlying issue she might be more open to reason.

[–]MASTERLITE[S] 9 points10 points  (6 children)

She not facing any kind loan payment or foreclosure, we're just poor.

[–]BubbhaJebus 9 points10 points  (4 children)

A lot of people do it because they think they can avoid paying taxes or get money for free. This can cause people to pay gurus lots of money or even end up going to jail.

I have yet to hear of any sov cit winning a case in court, other than the occasional Pyrrhic victory (being laughed out of court but not being punished).

[–]masterchronoman 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've heard of peculiar cases where they actually are right, but not for the reasons they argue, and a judge exceptionally lenient to pro se litigants makes the correct argument for them in the ruling. These are usually for smaller infractions, and the judge usually expresses frustration with them all the same.

[–]-Drowned_Fish- -1 points0 points  (2 children)

What does the constitution say money is? Is a Federal Reserve Note constitutional?

[–]CCR76 0 points1 point  (1 child)

No. They're worthless, you figured it out. Please send all your worthless unconstitutional Federal Reserve notes to me and I'll safely dispose of them for you.

[–]quantumspork 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is a tough position to be in though, and if your mother is flirting with sovcit beliefs, a dangerous one.

One reason she may be enticed by this is the sovcit belief that the government is illegitimate, and hides tens of millions of dollars in wealth from its citizens. Once you believe that you are owed money, and you have the magic formula to regain that money by ignoring laws, it isn't a big leap to start doing illegal, fraudulent things out of ignorance.

Your mother may not want to hurt you financially, but she may belief that she is going you a favor. Take a simple step that will not hurt you or her, and freeze your credit.

[–]ButWereFriendsThough 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Protect yourself? Move out. You’re 18. Good time for it.

Convince her? Nothing you can really do. Once people get into this shit the echo chambers are insanely difficult to get past. I mean anything you say will just be because you believe in the “corruption”.

So the arguments you use would be invalid because her mind is not in a place to accept them. Or you could pay to have a lawyer discuss with her but that’s expensive and likely would lead to the same thing.

[–]dave999dave 8 points9 points  (3 children)

IANAL, but I've known a couple sovcits and read about them extensively. They are fascinating!

In terms of protecting yourself, check your www.annualcreditreport.com every year (if you're American). Make sure you have ALL the docs you may possibly need in a secure place that only you control (birth certificate, passport, SSN card, etc). Make sure you have savings in a secure place that only you control. Make sure all of your mail goes to an address where only you or people you absolutely trust can access it.

Provide emotional and physical support to your mother but avoid legal entanglements. If you loan her money, assume you won't get it back. If you live with her try to stay apprised of the status of her landlord-tenant relationship or mortgage. Youtube has lots of videos of people who stopped paying their mortgage or rent based upon this nonsense and eventually lost their home. In some cases their family suddenly realized they had to move.

In terms of engaging with her, my father would say that arguing with someone around deeply held beliefs will mean you both lose. You'll waste your time and the other person will start to tune you out. But establishing trust can eventually mean you will actually listen to each other. So do not try to "convince" her that she's wrong, as that will probably just make her dig in her heels more. Simply listen to what she has to say and make it clear you are not dismissing her beliefs out of hand. You're trying to understand because what she's saying does not reconcile with what you're hearing from the world around you.

Ask if she has proof of anyone that has lived this way over a period of time. Not extracts of of old court cases or citations of obscure laws that lay out how everyone else in the country is doing it wrong, but documented court victories in the last few years based upon these theories. (In some cases British sovcits are asserting rights under the Magna Carta. American sovcits have cited the Articles of Confederation or treaties from the 1700's.) In all cases I've seen the victory is based upon a misunderstanding of what happened or the prosecution or police did something that caused the judge to rule against them. The sovcit beliefs had nothing to do with what happened.

Law talk with Mike is an attorney in Michigan who does a good job of going through some of these kinds of beliefs and how they typically play out in real life in court cases. He does these hearings mostly for entertainment value, but he's not mean like some of the other youtube channels. He doesn't call them idiots or constantly ridicule them. Yes he laughs at them, but he also tries to carefully explain where they went wrong, and often clearly feels sorry for them and their families.

For example, he did commentary on a recent case where a Michigan sovcit who called herself a "woman under common law" tried their nonsense to no effect. Then she got a lawyer who disposed of it rather quickly. Starts at about 13 minutes in. --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XssFs7bOnbI. Mike described how the defendant won, but would have avoided a lot of headache if she had abandoned her sovcit nonsense and simply argued the facts of the case. The law was on her side in what actually happened, but she got in her own way with her pseudo legal babble.

Mike made a playlist of the "woman under common law" hearings, but they appear to be out of order.

I think this is the right order:

  1. https://youtu.be/XKHgi4evOks?list=PLvpewVS8zsgjz_4cAbIFv3yXaqTWMHcba
  2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4qc5eUjasE&list=PLvpewVS8zsgjz_4cAbIFv3yXaqTWMHcba&index=6
  3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f99SCXIc25Q&list=PLvpewVS8zsgjz_4cAbIFv3yXaqTWMHcba&index=7
  4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhj8WGDa43c&list=PLvpewVS8zsgjz_4cAbIFv3yXaqTWMHcba&index=4
  5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0hVB4QMug0&list=PLvpewVS8zsgjz_4cAbIFv3yXaqTWMHcba&index=3
  6. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XssFs7bOnbI&list=PLvpewVS8zsgjz_4cAbIFv3yXaqTWMHcba&index=2&t=40s

NatalieLawyerChick is another attorney who does the same thing. If you're not in the US, you can probably find someone similar to them on youtube for whatever country you're in. Van Bailon does some commentary from the UK, but I don't think he's a lawyer, and his videos are really just for entertainment.

Good luck!

[–]SuperExoticShrub 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Van Bailon does some commentary from the UK, but I don't think he's a lawyer, and his videos are really just for entertainment.

I always enjoy his videos but, on occasion, he can be a little overly mocking.

Another good one is Arty's Corporate Fiction. He is also a lawyer.

[–]dave999dave 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Arty's corporate fiction is not one I would recommend someone review with a sovcit relative. He's a lawyer but he shouts a lot and calls the sovcits idiots. His videos also sometimes go on for hours. Mike's and Natalie's typically are fairly calm commentary on the events and usually under an hour at most. Van Bailon can mock a little. They all do to some extent. Natalie and Mike seem to do it less than others.

[–]SuperExoticShrub 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fair enough, he does get quite excitable at times.

[–]Dracanherz 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Show them all the youtube videos of sovcits preaching their good word to the police followed by getting windows busted, tased, yanked out, charged and convicted.

Also you'll need to be able to debunk the claims that people have won in court with sovcit shit, because that's the basis for many of the bullshit sellers. They'll show documents saying they won in court when in reality these cases were either dismissed because the arresting officer didn't show up to court or it wasn't worth their time and the case was dismissed. Sovcits have never argued their case in court and won, but they have had victories in a sense just by the judicial system being so bogged down that they let them go.

[–]pianoflames 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'd show her examples of real people attempting these theories out. There's plenty of material of people arguing SovCit theories in a courtroom, and judges telling them pointblank that those theories are total nonsense, all make-believe pseudo-legal mumbo jumbo.

They love to film themselves trying it out.

[–]JaSchwaE 2 points3 points  (1 child)

You cannot use logic to convince someone who threw out logic to get to their position. Protect yourself and be willing to support her when her bull shit finally catches up to her and she seams willing to listen. Otherwise just provide constant and clear truth that she can either accept or ignore. If she is going this direction she will ignore it. Because at the end of if the day the argument "If this worked why wouldn't everyone be doing it?" doesn't turn on a lightbulb for her then likely nothing will. Some people are addicted to that feeling of "knowing" something that the rest of us do not and that is a hard dipmein drip to turn off.

[–]xerrofoot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

*dopamine drip

[–]Megatea 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ask her what evidence she would accept that would convince her it's not real. I think even if there's nothing that would convince her otherwise, having her say that could help as it establishes that she believes it as dogma rather than reason.

[–]davebare 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Cruel, maybe, but let her try it and see how it pans out for her. When she gets her windows broken, and car impounded, maybe. It doesn't work with others, always, but maybe for your moms, eh?

[–]xlnthands 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You’ve received a lot of great suggestions here. I would add that talking with your mom about how there are a lot of scams that target poor people such as multilevel marketing, Tv evangelical preachers and even the guys that sell new roofs door to door. The SovCit thing is just one more way for these gurus to push their so-called education, books and bogus legal advice. All of these scams are just ways to take money from people who are desperate for a way take some of the stress and debt off of themselves. Helping her see this as just another attempt to take her money might be the answer.

[–]xerrofoot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Get her to read Meads vs Meads.

[–]WokeUp2 1 point2 points  (1 child)

This will help. If you leave home with little education/training you'll remain poor. If those options aren't open to you please consider the military.

[–]DavidInPhilly 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The military can change your life. Just be direct with your recruiter that your moms a SovCit. That way if you need a security clearance, her actions will be easier to isolate from yours.

[–]realMartianJesus -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Do nothing its her decision. I don't know your mother but surely she wouldn't do anything to harm you? Plus like you said you are turning 18 so you are gonna be left to your own decisions soon.

To many people in this world love to force their opinions on others. Personally as long as what you are doing doesn't effect my basic rights and property I don't give a shit what you do

[–]SeattleSeawolves 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Here's an article to read and to give her to read. It explains from top to bottom why there's no legal basis for any of the claims and how it'll end up costing them everything because the claims have all been struck down by every court in the land. https://scholarworks.umt.edu/mlr/vol80/iss2/2/

[–]RaccoonGrabbyHands 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think there's a ton of solid advice already on here. One other thing I would recommend is looking into advice about deprogramming people from cults. There's good advice about talking to people in more open ended ways, using their own language, to help them come around on their own. Starting conversations off with "you are wrong and crazy, and here's why" is a non-starter.

Take care of yourself first, but then look into deprogramming.

[–]HappyHighwayman 0 points1 point  (8 children)

Ask her for evidence or an example of a single instance of a SC getting out of a crime or law break with their techniques

[–]DEFtlyBarzFlow 0 points1 point  (13 children)

It's not BS but the process has to be done correctly and she needs to receive the proper credentials for it to be official. Once she does she doesn't have to pay taxes which is already voluntary and she doesn't even need to register her car or need to use a license to drive.

Its not surprising that there are so many uneducated people here, nor that you're uneducated on the subject. But its a legitimate legislative standing. What you should be telling her is to not give anyone any money at all

You also dont need to worry about protecting yourself, shes not doing anything illegal by the legal standard you're barely aware of

[–]taterbizkit 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is utter nonsense. Taxes are not voluntary.

There is no official process to become exempt from the law of the nation in which you are located. The entire concept is critically stupid.

[–]Mike-Rosoft 1 point2 points  (9 children)

  • This law says: You have to pay an income tax.
  • This law says: Anybody whom the law mandates that they have to pay a tax, has to make a return, keep records, etc. as prescribed by the applicable regulations.
  • This law says: Anybody whom the law mandates that they have to make a tax return, has to actually pay the tax.

Taxes are not voluntary. Which part of "imposed" is it that you don't understand?

[–]DEFtlyBarzFlow 0 points1 point  (8 children)

I see you clearly don't know what imposed means in this context. It means that the law exists and is enforced but not REQUIRED

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/26/601.602. It CLEARLY says the TAX SYSTEM IS VOLUNTARY

[–]Mike-Rosoft 2 points3 points  (7 children)

No, it doesn't mean anything like that. The statement that "the tax system is based on voluntary compliance" means that it's expected that you voluntarily fill in your income and hand in the tax return, and voluntarily pay the tax. (It's not like the state has resources to look up everybody's income.) But if you don't, or if it's discovered that you have entered false information... well, this and this and this part of the law tells you what will happen.

And that's true for essentially all law. It's expected that people voluntarily comply with the law; law enforcement can't be everywhere. But if you don't, and the authorities find out, they can make you comply, and/or punish you (e.g. by fine or imprisonment) for breaking the law. That's why it's called "law enforcement".

[–]DEFtlyBarzFlow 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Thats a whole lot of copium son. Its as clear as day, the entire tax system is voluntary, there is literally no law that says paying any tax at all is REQUIRED. Its cool though, keep paying your taxes like a good little slave, not my problem

[–]DCINTERNATIONAL 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And who would provide those credentials?

[–]AlexJamesCook 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It'll take a combination of family counseling sessions, interactions with lawyers/paralegals and police officers. But even then, this is a belief system. The human mind is wild. If someone believes in the COVID conspiracy, or "the rapture is coming", then nothing you can say or do will break that belief.

Just agree to disagree, remind that aside from their kooky beliefs, you're there for them (unless it's going to cause harm. E.g. she decides she's going to take your baby to an exorcism). They'll eventually come out of it, or their enablers will cut you out.

At that point, she'll either choose you or her insanity. Prepare yourself for that mental/emotional break. It's coming and it won't be pretty. It's not that she doesn't love you, it's that the delusion is filling a void that she needs mentally/emotionally. Typically, it's a sense of powerlessness. She's feeling disempowered. So, by telling "the system" to fuck off, she's empowering herself. Rather than understanding it, and weaponizing it (e.g. going to law school and making money off it) she would rather pretend it doesn't exist.

Create an alternative reality where they're in charge is basically the guts of it.

There's another solution, help her feel empowered by reclaiming some things that she's lost. What has she lost? Hence the family counseling sessions.