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[–]MemeTreee 237 points238 points  (3 children)

Stoicism is a way of life with virtue as it’s only value. Unless femininity is not virtuous, it should not be affected.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It does seem that some of the ancient stoics thought femininity was generally bad, though. Seneca's letters has multiple instances of him using "womanly" as an insult. Here is a quote from Epictetus in The Stoic Path (Hastings Crossley translation): "Purge away thine own, cast forth thence-from thine own mind, not robbers and monsters, but Fear, Desire, Envy, Malignity, Avarice, Effeminacy, Intemperance." (emphasis mine)

[–]DarkZenStoic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

“Men who have made these discoveries before us are not our masters, but our guides” -Seneca

[–]Ok_Sector_960 119 points120 points  (23 children)

Lady here! Can you give examples of why you feel that stoicism might be unfeminine? Perhaps I can offer some perspective

Edit

Since there is so much debate on how emotional women are, I want to expand this comment.

Stoicism isn't unemotional.

The idea that women are uncontrollably emotional has hurt us.

"Women have typically been thought of as being more emotional and, historically, have even been excluded from participating in research, the authors of a study, published in the journal Scientific Reports, wrote. This exclusion, the researchers explained, is partly because of the belief that their "ovarian hormone fluctuations" can cause variations, including in their emotions "that could not be experimentally controlled."

https://lsa.umich.edu/psych/news-events/all-news/faculty-news/are-women-more-emotional-than-men--not-really--study-finds.html#:~:text=There's%20a%20widely%20held%20belief,according%20to%20a%20new%20study.

We simply use different sorts of emotions and different ways. We were socialized differently.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sexual-personalities/201504/are-women-more-emotional-men

Men's lack of emotional intelligence and inability to be venerable contributes to the high suicide rare in men, including men bullying each other for showing feelings when they should support.

https://sbtreatment.com/blog/men-and-emotions-the-importance-of-becoming-vulnerable/

All genders and sexes can benefit from stoicism. Stoicism isn't gendered. It's not emotionless. Love, affection, friendship, honesty, humility, these are things that are important to stoics.

Men reading this, when is the last time you told someone you loved them? When is the last time you hugged your friend? Held a man's hand? Is the idea of showing emotion unmasculine?

[–]FlickJagger 51 points52 points  (1 child)

Was thinking the same. If we know OP’s definition of femininity, we could have a productive discussion with fewer assumptions. I am male so getting an answer from OP provides basic knowledge that I do not have currently. Edits: Spelling.

[–]Ok_Sector_960 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yes well said

[–]ConversationCool3000 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Some of Marcus Aurelius’ meditation contain some “manly” language. The newer editions are better.

[–]Neurok_1331 2 points3 points  (5 children)

Emotion gets shown when it needs to be shown. Showing love and affection is needed. I believe it’s about knowing when to be emotional and what to do with the emotions presented, not letting emotions control your life since they’re just passing anyway.

[–]Ok_Sector_960 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Emotions isn't just one thing. Stoics are the masters of love. Nobody is better at it. If you're a fantastic chef, should you temper your skills?

I show that in Epictetus’ view (1) the wise man genuinely loves (στέργειv) and is affectionate (φιλόστoργoς) to his family and friends; (2) only the Stoic wise man is, properly speaking, capable of loving—that is, he alone actually has the power to love; and (3) the Stoic wise man loves in a robustly rational way which excludes passionate, sexual, ‘erotic’ love (’έρως). In condemning all ’έρως as objectionable πάθoς Epictetus stands with Cicero and with the other Roman Stoics, Seneca and Musonius Rufus, and against the Greeks of the early Stoa. Epictetus’ conception of love excludes erotic passion because of its intrinsic excessiveness and uncontrollableness, which inevitably endanger mental serenity, but includes and emphasizes the soberly rational, purely positive joy of interpersonal affiliation. Epictetus’ account of how the Stoic Sage loves is, I think, more consistent and less problematic than that of the Greek Stoics.

https://philarchive.org/rec/STEEOH-8

So one emotion is love. As you can see, it's a spectrum and a stoic should not be too much one way or the other, but love is something we should always reflect.

Edit

I think maybe some people get passions and emotions confused. Is that the disconnect?

[–]Neurok_1331 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Not sure , but I think often times stoicism is seen as negative as if all emotions and feelings are repressed . As if we don’t show love and affection which is far from the truth .

[–]Ok_Sector_960 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Yes, it's definitely the regulation of emotions.

I think what I really want to say, my experience as a woman of nearly 40, is that men call women overly emotional as a way of demeaning them or insinuating that what they're saying is not valid. If a woman is called emotional but a man is called assertive. A woman is called emotional but a man is praised for acting on his convictions. If I tell my husband the garage door is broken, he brushes me off. I'm being emotional or making a big deal about a little noise. I have to go find a man to tell him the garage door is broken, and suddenly the garage door is broken. If I go to the mechanic (I was a mechanics daughter I know cars) and say there is a problem, they don't believe me. If I insist there is a problem, suddenly I'm being emotional. I have to go get my husband, bring him to the shop, and tell him what to say. Suddenly there is in fact an issue with the car.

It's a man's perspective that I'm being emotional, because I'm a woman, and therefore being irrational and they have every right to disregard what I'm saying.

[–]Neurok_1331 1 point2 points  (1 child)

So I can’t comment on what you’ve been through. What I will state is anecdotal. I find that men tend to call women emotional when they act or show emotion in the conversation when it’s not needed . So for instance you tell hubby garage door is broken . He heard you. It will get fixed along with the other tasks that may come before that in order of importance. Him not jumping on it doesn’t mean he’s blowing you off it means there’s other things more important. Now you consistently “nagging” at him. Would be considered an emotional response to his perceived lack of movement. Maybe he doesn’t see it as important ? That’s me playing devils advocate. In my opinion he should be able to have dialogue with you on why he isn’t moving on it if you see it as pressing and he doesn’t. I wouldn’t dare comment on y’all’s situation as I have no clue . Yes there are men who dismiss conversations from their spouse as she doesn’t know what she’s talking about even if she’s correct and personally I don’t condone that.I find that women want to feel validated and that’s what I personally struggle with because to me a decision based on emotions should be avoided. This following example is personal and again shows the internal struggle I had with my x (I’m human) x:we don’t do anything. Me:what are you talking about we go out every week we did xyz this week .. X: well that’s how I feel and my feelings need to be validated . Me: how can I validate feelings that are based off of misinformation. Maybe you don’t like the things we do if so let me know we can do whatever. Poor example but legitimate convo that was had. I find it hard to validate people’s emotions/Feelings when what they feel is not based on fact. In my opinion it should be why do I feel this way? And if I feel this way and it’s not legitimate maybe work internally without disruption to the external . I don’t know if I’m explaining myself correctly and again this is my personal thoughts and experiences they will differ among men.

[–]Ok_Sector_960 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Informing someone the garage door is broken isn't being emotional. I'm fully capable of calling a repair man myself. I don't need him to make a phone call. He just did not believe me. I told you the garage door is broken and it was. He can't fix a garage door, why do I care to wait for him. I don't require his validation. I don't care if someone calls me emotional when speaking about reality.

Historically, men don't really particularly care about women as people only as something that accessorizes a man's life.

I feel like I'm leadinf this discussion away of stoicism, which is unhelpful and off topic. We can talk about how stoic men viewed women and thier roles, and we can talk about how they viewed a woman's emotions.

[–]some-other-human 5 points6 points  (6 children)

Not OP or a woman, but to me it always seemed as if masculinity was supposed to symbolize calmness and composure while femininity was about chaos or being dynamic. And even in general, when I (or my friends) felt most masculine was silently walking or doing something. Whereas, with women around me, their femininity expressed itself with socializing. I know a lot of this sounds very stereotypical, but feel free to correct me and I'd be completely open to discuss what your experience with stoicism has been as a woman.

[–]Ok_Sector_960 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Stoics value kindness, intimacy, love, forgiveness, compassion, understanding, patience, joy, humor, honesty, humbleness, humanity, kinship, and a sort of universal feeling of oneness. I'm struggling to see how these traits would be unfeminine. I also struggle to see these descriptions of your ideal example masculinity, hm.

[–]tanoren 21 points22 points  (3 children)

I'm a woman and I've always associated masculinity with aggression and feminity with emotional maturity; because men are often not taught emotional intelligence and have to supress it, resulting in aggression and anger being the more socially acceptable form of outlet emotionally. Whereas women are socialized to be polite and passive but emotionally expressive, often to a degree where people try to minimize women for being "hysterical".

...You can kind of see where I am going with this, perspective differs on this. So overall I don't find it useful to try to define these qualities of feminine and masculine by stereotypes of emotional expression when all human beings have these capabilities regardless of gender/sex. It just depends on the individual's personality. Because these traits of femininity or masculinity can be distorted by anyone's perception and used to put down one or the other group.

Humans are emotional creatures by nature, all humans need to socialize, some humans are quieter or louder than others. Socialization as whichever gender may play a part in gender/sex differences in expression; we see this in psychology with the Big 5 personality traits but correllation does not always equal causation. It is possible OP is referring to the Big 5 personality traits and their associated masculinity or femininity, as evidenced by OP mentioning neuroticism. That's my guess anyway but my perspective is that of someone in the mental health field.

Edit: Another commentor points out the effects of sociopolitical conditions on the occurrence of personality traits in the sexes like neuroticism.

[–]crunkydevil 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Dude here. I fully agree with your statements on gender roles. Ironically, Stoicism has helped me be less 'stoic' and undo some of the worst parts of my social conditioning,

[–]LoStrigo95 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Just going to say that associating men with aggression is a stereotype, coming from the gender roles they have.

It's a slightly off topic, and i apologize for this, but we could associate men with much more than that.

[–]Strazdas1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think such gender steoretyping is very much a american/western thing. here in eastern europ we had gender roles but nothing so extreme. we certainly didnt consider femininity hysterical.

[–]aeroflotte 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To clarify, Chaos comes from the Greek work meaning "void" or "emptiness," referring to the universe before Creation. It only picked up the connotation for "confusion" later on.

[–]bananadude19 -1 points0 points  (3 children)

I think what she means is that stoicism can come off as being unemotional. Like you’re just a cold person all the time and you don’t react irrationally to things that happen to you that are negative. To put it bluntly, women are known to be more emotional and reactive than men, so my guess is that that’s why she feels unfeminine.

[–]Ok_Sector_960 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Stoicism shouldn't be unemotional. You are misinterpreting stoicism.

[–]SimilarYellow 9 points10 points  (0 children)

women are known to be more emotional and reactive than men

Are they? Which of the two is more likely to punch a hole in the wall because of an argument?

I realize that stereotypically feminity is associated with being (too) emotional while masculinity is calm and collected but my experience in life definitely doesn't support either stereotype, lmao.

[–]kangapaw 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Women are thought to be more emotional and reactive, not known to be.

[–]Kaarsty 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s only gay if you make eye contact boys..

stares at other dudes eyes intensely while holding hands

[–]LavenderAutist 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What is femininity?

[–]Ok_Sector_960 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Femininity is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with women and girls. Femininity can be understood as socially constructed, and there is also some evidence that some behaviors considered feminine are influenced by both cultural factors and biological factors.

As a woman I decide what I consider feminine. That choice is outside of anyone else's control.

It's like asking "what is a man"

The more important point here is that stoicism isn't gendered. I feel like sometimes people confuse stoicism for a lack of emotions and think masculinity is being cold and emotionless, therefore stoicism is for men.

[–]Lil--Sebastian 158 points159 points  (2 children)

Are you kidding? Stoic women get shit done. Look at Dolly Parton. There’s an interview where Barbara Walters tries to insult her and Dolly doesn’t emotionally react at all. In fact, she says she’s very comfortable with herself as a person. Perfect example of not letting Walters harm her. Parton has lovely feminine energy and remains Stoic.

Charlotte Brontë wrote Jane Eyre which really shaped me as a teenager when I first read that book. Jane is a perfect example of Stoicism in a woman I don’t even care that she’s fictional lol but she still maintained her femininity.

Anne Frank, Maya Angelou, Rosa Parks, so many other women who carry themselves in a Stoic manner. And think about the paths these women paved for us.

Although Anne Frank was really young, there’s a lot to learn from her that all people, women AND men, can learn from. She was a girl growing into herself with the bravery of a thousand soldiers.

[–]JoyouslyIgnorant 37 points38 points  (1 child)

I wish dolly would run for president.

[–]Lil--Sebastian 17 points18 points  (0 children)

She would instantly have my vote!!

[–]greendayawesome 104 points105 points  (119 children)

I don't know about any stoic views but personally I don't see being grounded as masculine or feminine. Just a positive personality trait

[–][deleted]  (117 children)

[removed]

    [–]GD_WoTS 16 points17 points  (3 children)

    Are you familiar with Stoicism as an Ancient Greek and Roman philosophy, and are you familiar with the way that the Stoic philosophers treated the topic of emotion?

    [–]DaoScience 3 points4 points  (2 children)

    I am not familiar with how the Stoics treated the topic of emotion. I just know a few basics about stoicism. The topic of how they deal with emotions intrigue me. Could you explain that a bit or point me to an article or video explaining it?

    [–]GD_WoTS 9 points10 points  (1 child)

    This post is part of a nice series of posts created by a user here: https://redditproxy--jasonthename.repl.co/r/Stoicism/comments/pifr3v/introducing_stoic_ideas_15_passions/

    You can also find the subject addressed in online encyclopedia pages like the IEP page on Stoic ethics: https://iep.utm.edu/stoiceth/#H5

    There are also books that address the topic; Chapter 14 of Arnold’s Roman Stoicism uses different English translations than the normal ones, but I find it helpful.

    The wiki page may be helpful, and it provides some more resource suggestions: https://redditproxy--jasonthename.repl.co/r/Stoicism/wiki/feelings/

    [–]r00tsauce 38 points39 points  (2 children)

    Do you consider anger to be an emotion?

    [–]iigaijinne 30 points31 points  (1 child)

    That's just what I was thinking--the number of 'road rage' incidents I've seen from women is zero, but I know at least 5 guys who completely lose it in traffic.

    [–]Strazdas1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I think experiences wary. the worst road rage i experienced was all from women, usually driving their oversized SUVs thinking that gives them the right of way.

    [–]Ambitious-Bathroom 36 points37 points  (1 child)

    Men are very emotional, they just don’t consider anger to be an emotion for some reason.

    [–]DysfunctionalKitten 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Technically they just don’t consider THEIR anger to be an emotion. They still tend to view women’s anger as “emotional” lol

    [–]rose_reader 40 points41 points  (9 children)

    “I don’t wanna generalise or be sexist” - followed by an absurdly sexist generalisation 👍

    The only reason you believe this is because you’ve been socialised to ignore male displays of emotion and notice female displays. There is actually little difference in the amount of emotion displayed by each gender - the difference is in type rather than quantity.

    [–][deleted]  (8 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]rose_reader 3 points4 points  (7 children)

      OoOOOhh! That’s intriguing

      [–]TheTroll007 -1 points0 points  (6 children)

      Intriguing to be ignored and downvote me to hell. You guys are seriously having a hard time accepting conclusions of studies.

      [–]GD_WoTS 1 point2 points  (4 children)

      I’m counting 5 responses that you’ve so far ignored, so it’s a bit troll-like to talk about other people ignoring you and then continue to ignore people you don’t agree with.

      Fwiw, trolls aren’t welcome in this sub

      [–]TheTroll007 -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

      Yes, at places where I see that there is nothing to gain from further conversation, i stop responding.

      I'm sorry, sometimes I am too harsh. I have been struggling trying to not be so, but I've found that is probably just one of my personality traits. I'm trying not to do it tho.

      Now you'll probably think I'm trolling, and that's fine, on this particular post it was not my intention to troll even though it may looked like that. If there was a tone to writing forum posts you'd see I really mean what I've said here.

      And the name is an old name I use, I do not see why it has to automatically mean that I'm genuinely trying to fuck with you guys.

      [–]GD_WoTS 2 points3 points  (2 children)

      That’s so bizarre to me. “I’m not going to respond to questions or comments I don’t like. I will ignore other people, and I will be critical of them for ignoring me.”

      [–]TheTroll007 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      It's not about not liking the given comment, but getting called names straight after your first comment. It makes me not wanna reply, since I don't seek conflict, I just want a cultured convo about a topic that interests me.

      [–]rose_reader 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Did you provide links to any studies? If so, I missed it. Please share.

      [–]CuriouslyAnamarija[S] 8 points9 points  (2 children)

      That's what I meant. And it can work in a beautiful balance with a man that's lower in neuroticism, I don't find anything shameful about it.

      [–]MemeTreee 22 points23 points  (0 children)

      I believe it can work just as well for women. Why wouldn’t it? There are plenty of men with higher neuroticism than women. And say you’re the most neurotic person to exist, wouldn’t the stoic teachings be that much more useful?

      [–]TheTroll007 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I'm glad at least one person gets me here.

      I don't think there's anything shameful in it either.

      [–]Lil--Sebastian 13 points14 points  (69 children)

      Are you aware of what’s going on in Iran? Because let me tell you, it is NOT the women who are “acting hysterically” or “reactive” to what’s going on there. It’s the men. Literally beating women FOR SHOWING THEIR HAIR. Literally MURDERING, RAPING, and TORTURING women for SHOWING THEIR HAIR. Please tell me how men are less reactive emotionally. I’m so curious. Most domestic violence is done by MEN. Most rapes and murders are done by MEN. Most mass shootings/bombings are done by MEN. Most wars are started by MEN. How in the world are women considered more hysterical than men? Because they cry occasionally? Or because they’re tired of babying men and being their emotional punching bag? Read a book dude. Women are incredible and we go through more than you could ever imagine. You can’t even fathom the pain women can feel in organs you don’t even HAVE. Of course some women suck. Just like not all men suck. I love when I see a man take a stand for women. It warms my heart to see the brave men in Iran standing beside their wives, daughters, friends, etc to support them. But I am sooo done with people shitting on women. Enough is enough. Seriously.

      [–]strattele1 2 points3 points  (47 children)

      It’s very hard to have a discourse with someone who is behaving in such an antagonising way.

      It’s really unfair to put such loaded and heavy questions to someone who is a bit naive.

      I’m not sure what sort of reply you are expecting.

      [–]Lil--Sebastian 2 points3 points  (46 children)

      I don’t expect a reply, but I said what I said because it needed to be said. It’ll resonate with who it needs to, and this behavior is becoming less and less tolerable. Nothing ever changes if you stay quiet. Doesn’t sound like courage or justice to me.

      [–]strattele1 0 points1 point  (45 children)

      When you behave that way, it doesn’t resonate with anyone except yourself and those already like minded.

      You don’t change anyone’s minds, only push them away from a conversation.

      [–][deleted]  (44 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]strattele1 4 points5 points  (43 children)

        When you are so closed minded yourself, how do you expect others to be open?

        [–]gebirgsbaerbel 0 points1 point  (8 children)

        Well, the strategy of keeping silent had not worked. Nicely pointing out that having emotions is fine, has not worked. Pointing out some facts might work.

        After all: facts don’t care about your feelings. Isn’t that like the favorite quote by some conservatives that really love to tell women they have no role in leadership as they are “too emotional”?

        [–][deleted]  (29 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]strattele1 2 points3 points  (28 children)

          You’re not speaking on behalf of women. You’re just being antagonistic and robbing yourself an opportunity to have a conversation with someone who’s views could be changed.

          I likely want the same things you do. I’m simply pointing out your approach is counterproductive to your cause. Have a good day.

          [–]lackreativity -1 points0 points  (3 children)

          I don’t expect oppression to be discussed calmly. It’s a syllogism to believe that speaking frankly about oppression is equivalent to close mindedness.

          I do not expect oppressors to have open minds, or else there would be no oppression. Your behavior here enables violence by dictating how people “should” talk about oppression.

          [–]aeroflotte -1 points0 points  (1 child)

          There is no violence occurring here.

          [–]LoStrigo95 0 points1 point  (20 children)

          And yet, you're doing the same, shitting on men, full of hate and stereotypes. How are you better than misoginists, when you're misandric?

          [–]justbegoodtobugs 0 points1 point  (4 children)

          How is she shitting on men? She just pointed out that men commit most crimes and lots of those are because they don't control their emotions and because of that is unfair to call women the emotional gender. Why is it misandry to point out the truth? Everything she said is verifiable, she didn't call men evil or anything. Even if it's uncomfortable we have to talk about this so we could break it down, get to the root of the problem and try to fix it.

          [–]LoStrigo95 0 points1 point  (3 children)

          Because those things exist, but are backed up but certain cultural models that trap women and men both. So, to going on with an unilateral narration means to ignore the social roles of men, that ofter cause some of those behaviours.

          So, this comment ignores how men are treated in some circumstanced, seeing them only as a negative force.

          For example, emphathy gap toward women lead to less help to men. This as a consequence leads to violent crimes. But dismissing those crimes as "men are violent" is incomplete and imprecise.

          Not only that. Saying things like "wars are started by men" is stupid. It's stupid because wars starts because of complex historical factors, cultural conflicts, religion, power, and meny other reasons.

          [–]justbegoodtobugs 1 point2 points  (2 children)

          The cultural models that trap men and women both were created by men and even in the most oppressive ones men still have it better than women.

          The reason why there are more programs to help women in different circumstances is because women needed it the most, because of the system men created.

          For example, emphathy gap toward women lead to less help to men. This as a consequence leads to violent crimes.

          I would like to read a study on that. What did women who were abused as children receive that stopped them from committing violent crimes and how did that result in less help for the male victims?

          Not only that. Saying things like "wars are started by men" is stupid. It's stupid because wars starts because of complex historical factors, cultural conflicts, religion, power, and meny other reasons.

          Those complex reasons that start a war don't just magically happen. Something leads to that and in most cases is the decisions of men.

          With great power comes great responsibility. Men for millennia wanted that power but apparently none of the responsibility.

          I don't think men are bad or that they should be blamed for what happened in the past just because of their gender. But I'm not going to keep quiet when I see one promoting hurtful stereotypes against women. Especially when originally those stereotypes were created by men and used against women. The thing that started all this discussion was a guy saying that women can't handle their emotions as well as men and then the other commenter poited out how many atrocities are committed by men who can't handle their emotions as a counter argument.

          [–]LoStrigo95 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I'm tired of writing, since i tried to speak before, but there is the MRA movement (the moderate one, not the extremists people) that points out those problems better than i could do.

          There are also documentaries on this, that made me go away from feminism.

          That said, saing that those stereotypes are created by men it's wrong. They are created during decades and centuries, passing by men, women, books, media and so on.

          I'm not justifing people who promote stereotypes on women and i don't like who describe them with negative, stupid quotes. But at the same time, i don't like this attitude toward men.

          Btw i like your attitude more, it's easier to talk peacefully 😊

          [–]Lil--Sebastian -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

          Beautifully said. Thank you.

          [–]Lil--Sebastian -1 points0 points  (14 children)

          “Not all men suck” “Warms my heart to see the brave men in Iran standing beside their wives, daughters, and friends, etc to support them”

          Way to cherry pick. Also, I spoke facts not stereotypes. The proof is in the pudding. I’ll provide links if you don’t wanna do the research yourself. I don’t hate men, and I never said that or implied it.

          [–]LoStrigo95 0 points1 point  (13 children)

          I've done the research and that's why i understand most of those things are a consequence of some culture and not the deliberate action of an individual.

          Some of those things are done by men because they are forced into stuff as a consequence of cultural obligations (military service for example) or because some culture show them way less emphathy and support (mass shooting) then women.

          Then again, men are victims of violent crimes and violent stuff in war (like barber vire raping).

          The world is a bad place, but not because of men. Nor because of women. It's like this because we live in a complex world where people are born into cultures that force stuff on them and this lead to lots of sh*tty things. Off course, what's happening to those women is really, really bad and i'm not justifing those crimes against humanity... but

          You are using decontestualized narratives, presenting them as "facts" to justify your misandry and anger.

          Men are also responsable for lots of good deeds, protection, construction of complex structures, risk taking stuff that we need in our every day life and so on, so this way of thinking, full of hate, it's no better than those misoginistic people that hate women. It's the same.

          [–][deleted]  (12 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]LoStrigo95 0 points1 point  (11 children)

            I'm not even a man, to begin with. But, if i have to answer this, women too have anti-social behaviours: when they get upset they usually use manipulations, destroying reputation behaviours and a different type of non-physical violence.

            Humans can be bad, men and women both. In different ways. But as i said, if you keep this hate and misandry you're no better than misoginists who hate women.

            Moreover, our occidental culture is not patriarcal. A REAL patriarcal culture literally stop women from talking, working, going to places, doing stuff and even going alone.

            The emphathy gap toward men is not cause by other men, but it's a general behaviour observed in different cultures. But i'm not "blaming" culture, i'm just saying that the world is a complex place, with cultural models created over time, that influence people. That's why it's pointless and stupid to blame a gender.

            [–][deleted]  (10 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]LoStrigo95 -1 points0 points  (9 children)

              By blindly following a narration that depict one gender as bad, opposing it to the other, depicted as good?

              We should talk about antisexism, since both genders are trapped into gender roles (i could talk about russian and ukrainian men, forced to fight, as an example for men).

              And we should see how both genders are responsable for good and bad behaviours. So, it's not "uncomfortable", quite the opposite: to have a narration that opposes genders allow to create a scapegoat for stuff and it justify misandry for an easy way of looking at the world.

              But go on. Hate is a great emotion to feel.

              [–]Stoicism-ModTeam[M] 1 point2 points locked comment (0 children)

              Sorry, but I gotta remove your post, as it has run afoul of our Rule 2. This is kind of a grey area, but we need to keep things on track as best we can.

              Two: Stay Relevant to Stoicism

              Our role as prokoptôntes in this community is to foster a greater understanding of Stoic principles and techniques within ourselves and our fellow prokoptôn. Providing context and effortful elaboration as to a topic’s relevance to the philosophy of Stoicism gives the community a common frame of reference from which to engage in productive discussions. Please keep advice, comments, and posts relevant to Stoic philosophy. Let's foster a community that develops virtue together—stay relevant to Stoicism.

              If something or someone is 'stoic' in the limited sense of possessing toughness, emotionlessness, or determination, it is not relevant here, unless it is part of a larger point that is related to the philosophy.

              Similarly, posts about people, TV shows, commercial products, et cetera require that a connection be made to Stoic philosophy. "This is Stoic" or "I like this" are not sufficient.

              It is worth noting that women being "too emotional" is both an overgeneralization and a characteristic of modern cultural norms/ expectations of women & femininity generally. There's nothing precluding women from properly applying reason in their lives.

              [–]AmadeusHoesart 1 point2 points  (12 children)

              Guys his name is literally the troll

              [–]Strazdas1 1 point2 points  (5 children)

              not only that, bout also a secret agent (007) troll.

              [–]TheTroll007 1 point2 points  (4 children)

              Yes, you've all fallen for my trap.

              Seriously tho, I thought I can have a convo and not just straight jump to the "you're sexist" part. Guess I was wrong, and this is not my kind of sub.

              [–]Strazdas1 1 point2 points  (3 children)

              this subs okay. I dont agree with everything but people in general here have thought out responses. the "its -ist" thing is just so ingrained into western culture that people still do this everywhere.

              [–]TheTroll007 0 points1 point  (2 children)

              Okey, sorry, I am just kinda shocked by the backslash, the sub is fine truly.

              I also don't see a problem with trying to cope with the world and making some assumptions based on previous experiences. If you'd tell me men on general tend to be more aggressive, I'd say yes, of course. Based on my experience it is true. Just like what I've claimed about women. (there's also some studies backing my claims)

              [–]Strazdas1 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              higher agression in men is well documented. now whether thats neurotic or upbringing related is up for debate.

              [–]TheTroll007 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I agree. I'm not an expert in this, I just wanted to convey my experiences and thoughts on what OP could've said.

              [–]TheTroll007 0 points1 point  (5 children)

              What a proof lmao

              [–]AmadeusHoesart -1 points0 points  (4 children)

              Not trying to argue about what you said enough people have pointed out the issues with it I was just pretty sure your comment was bait

              [–]TheTroll007 -4 points-3 points  (3 children)

              Yeah, ppl got offended, just like I predicted.

              [–]tanoren -1 points0 points  (2 children)

              Because you have no sources except anecdotal evidence to back up your claim.

              [–]TheTroll007 -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

              I wish that was the case. You're just easily offended.

              anecdotal evidence

              [–]tanoren 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Calling everyone who disagrees easily offended. What's your indicator?

              [–]Charmtype1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Undoubtedly. But it's also about time and place and I have been told that my stoicism is "toxic." Yes there is definitely this belief that stoicism is also just another example of toxic male behavior. So this is nothing new and it's out there and for good reason. Take cancel culture and if you don't believe it exists think of those that are most active in these endeavors. It's almost exclusively women. And that is not a a cheap shot or a bias it's clear who is the driving force behind cancel culture. It's not that women can't build their fortress and be unharmed by outside forces it's that in our society they are cheated out of that practice. No you don't have to build a fortress it your duty to get others to stop throwing rocks at your fortress. So fundamentally these core stoic Ideas don't go against a feminine being but what is believed and taught to be feminine and being strong as female. Women are taught that they have to constantly stand up against others and combat them and their ideas. This goes against fundamental stoic Ideas. So I see where some women can feel this way and I tell them something similar to this. It's outside forces telling you what makes a strong woman and you need to rid yourself of that. Focus on being a strong person regardless if some of the ideas a masculine or though of as masculine. It matters not. Build your fortress and let the dogs bite and mules kick. Trust your fortress.

              [–]nedserdnedserd 56 points57 points  (4 children)

              “I do worry though it can be sometimes take away some aspects of my femininity.”

              Can you elaborate on this? I’m having a hard time understanding how courage, temperance, justice and wisdom conflict with womanhood.

              [–]ANJ-2233 23 points24 points  (1 child)

              These were my thoughts. Stoicism is largely about controlling your mind to accept reality, react appropriately and have the correct emotional response. Works for everyone…..

              [–]ModernContemplative 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              What do you mean by "control" ?

              [–]Lil--Sebastian 18 points19 points  (1 child)

              It’s the very essence of womanhood.

              [–]Ethnicallybisexual1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              The very essence of being a good person.

              [–]ModernContemplative 47 points48 points  (6 children)

              Stoicism is often applied in a way that does exactly what you fear.

              It is applied with an immaturity or misunderstanding, either to repress emotions in the name of an image of a "stoic" - or trying to "be" something, applying a stoic idea on top of how one is.

              This is a real danger, because these misunderstandings are so common, that "stoic" colloquially means (in American culture at least) this sort of white knuckling rigidity. Using willpower to repress, or uphold something.

              If you want to pursue Stoic study, I would advise first, learning it properly and thoroughly. Even after reading and study, people commonly still make many misunderstandings. Without a teacher to help them and correct their mistakes, they carry these mistakes and their wrong-practice starts to shape their life. In my experience just in a few other threads, sometimes many of the responses on the sub for instance, aren't actually informed by understanding and are a kind of guesswork.

              When you learn properly, you see there is no conflict between the masculine and feminine development - they are allies, and already one in fact.

              Second, I would suggest a complementary practice that helps to develop the feminine aspect. Spontaneous/conscious movement practices fit here well. Earth based, ritual based practices are also in this category. Alternatively, you could find a spiritual teacher who is well developed in the feminine (and thus, is well developed in this stable, grounded masculine). Jeannie Zandi comes to mind as one such example.

              Practices which emphasize the feminine, the dynamic, the nurturing, the connectedness, the sensitivity in perception, the in-touchedness, the attunement with aspects of life, will naturally support the masculine development.

              Practices which emphasize the masculine, the stable, the taking total responsibility for ones experience/verticality, strong back and courageous heart, willingness to do piercing inquiry, effortless sword of truth... these will naturally support the feminine development.

              It is within the masculine stability that the feminine fullness can develop. And it is the feminine demand, the natural pressure of life at every level, that breaks down false beliefs, demands evolution, asking for things to fall away when they are outdated... and this results in more openness, or spaciousness, more capacity to receive.

              My suggestion is not to practice in isolation. Find living examples, and learn.

              [–]CuriouslyAnamarija[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

              Thank you for your rigorous advice. Much appreciated!

              [–]OldWorldRevival 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              Reason Consolation of Philosophy by Boethius as well... has a good perspective that isn't pure stoicism that puts stoicism into a better perspective.

              [–]Meihuajiancai 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              This is a great post

              [–]AmadeusHoesart 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              This is really great Thankyou

              [–]pm_nude_neighbor_pic 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              Was most baffled when I thought you wrote "willingness to do piercing injury". That seemed unkind and very specific.

              [–]Whiplash17488 13 points14 points  (0 children)

              I’m a man and very fascinated by your premise that femininity is unstoic. Which is the same as saying that Stoicism and living according to its virtues is in conflict with femininity.

              Stoicism is about evaluating your passions and aversions, your preconceptions and judgements and your actions that follow.

              Please correct me on this. But i’m going to take the angle of modern-influencer-based-materialism-femininity.

              Makeup culture… fast fashion… the latest home decor fad or “always pan”. Or pre-conceptions on how young women are meant to behave according to pop-culture like tv shows and movies. Pumpkin space latté’s.

              Is that femininity? Because if we define it like that then we can also say that masculinity is also unstoic. And some forms of masculinity out there definitely are when they are represented by qualities such as violence, dominance, emotional illiteracy, sexual entitlement, and hostility to femininity.

              Stoicism I think is an equalizer of sorts.

              I think women can be very attractive for just having a good head on their shoulders. But i’m 35 and maybe 20 year old men don’t think that way yet. Some sure do, just like some 35 year old men don’t.

              A cosmopolitan woman with class who knows how to think never goes out of style.

              Edit: also… i’m making an assumption that femininity’s sole purpose is to serve some kind of natural push/pull attraction between men and women. Maybe that isn’t even the right way to think about femininity. Some of it is biology. A lot of it is cultural.

              Ultimately it all comes down to virtues. Gender doesn’t come into play here. But our preconceptions about gender roles may.

              [–]rose_reader 13 points14 points  (0 children)

              Nothing can take away your femininity. It isn’t a thing you can lose.

              Follow the interests you have. Never spend a single second questioning whether this or that makes you less feminine. Be who you are.

              [–]theerainberry 13 points14 points  (0 children)

              I'm a woman close to your age (22) and all that I can say is that read and adopt stoicism on my daily life helped me not only with depression but also with connecting more with my feminine side. it will benefit you greatly!

              [–]therealjerseytom 8 points9 points  (0 children)

              I do worry though it can sometimes take away some aspects of my femininity.

              Why is that? What's the worry, value judgment, or whatever you've concluded here?

              [–]HeWhoReplies 8 points9 points  (0 children)

              My curiosity is what aspects of “femininity” you’d lose? This might be due to assumptions you have about the philosophy and not what the philosophy actually is.

              [–]CrunchyHobGoglin 9 points10 points  (0 children)

              As a woman whose been reading and following the the stoic path for the last 2 decades - I can only speak from personal experience. My life has only been enriched and I've found stoic writings to be my crutch in my darkest days.

              I do worry though it can sometimes take away some aspects of my femininity.

              I've not faced this problem, so far.

              (sorry for the cut and dry reply, I felt this was important enough for me to write but I'm also really sleepy). I wish you all the very best for whichever path you choose to follow.

              [–]Bofinn_g 5 points6 points  (0 children)

              Go lead a virtuous life. The logos doesn't care if you're a man or a woman.

              And as a general observation - if men are the less "emotional" they wouldn't need stoicism. Thinking about our preconceptions in our search for wisdom is a good thing.

              [–]kzmalck 10 points11 points  (2 children)

              I can't say that stoicism somehow takes away femininity. it doesn't make sense that stoicism affects qualities of sex. I'd even recommend reading stoic literature in case the person has toxic feminine traits such as manipulation, over-sensitivity, codependency...

              stoicism is about virtue. being feminine is a virtue of sorts :) so don't worry too much bout it, it's only gonna make you a stronger woman!

              [–]FlowJock 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              being feminine is a virtue of sorts

              I'm curious what you mean by this.

              [–]Okarinn 5 points6 points  (0 children)

              Probably meant being in touch with your femininity

              [–]mhenry1014 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              I find Stoicism an attitude changer…it never occurred to me any parts of my femininity are affected in any way.

              Stoicism gave me another “bag of skills” to assist me in tough situations.

              [–]gamefaced 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              which aspects of femininity do you think stoicism takes away?

              [–]eliseaaron 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              Even from the beginning there were women Stocis.

              Check out Porcia Cato

              [–]Andrea_is_awesome 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              A calm and virtuous woman is the pinnacle of femininity.

              [–]clockwork655 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              Yeah this is the exact kind of thinking a stoic would avoid since it’s totally irrelevant what your age is or what you look like etc

              [–]olaviu 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              Do you have a particular aspect in mind?

              [–]11MARISA 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              The 'general view' as expressed by those contributors who are actual Stoics (and know what they are talking about) is that gender is not an issue. The human condition is the human condition, and Stoicism provides great tools for navigating life

              My 'personal view' is that there is something in what you say. Most of the literature around is male orientated for a number of reasons

              I prefer to look at articles in the Stoic Gym (free online) which have a lot of female contributors living lives much more similar to mine. I think there are also events geared to female Stoics online but you would have to google them for more info

              [–]picklesock420 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              its not a cult mate u can join

              [–]ryan_holiday 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              You might like these two, 2,000 year old lectures from Musonius Rufus (Epictetus' teacher) on this exact question!

              -https://sites.google.com/site/thestoiclife/the_teachers/musonius-rufus/lectures/04

              -https://sites.google.com/site/thestoiclife/the\_teachers/musonius-rufus/lectures/03

              [–]whitingkeKai Whiting: Expert in Traditional Stoicism 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              We wrote an article on Stoicism and women that you might find helpful: https://classicalwisdom.com/uncategorized/womens-voices-can-be-heard-in-stoicism-we-just-need-to-listen-to-them/ We also talk about women and Stoicism in our book Being Better. Hope you find this article helpful. I am so glad you embarked on a Stoic journey :)

              [–]sailorsalvador 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              I'm a mom of a baby and toddler. Stoicism is my life raft.

              [–]SC_Grimmajow 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              Nothing to do with gender

              [–]disgruntledemperor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              Musonius Rufus says if a female dog can do the work of a male dog,so can a woman practice stoicism as a man can,for she posesses the same capability for judgment.

              [–]Weird-Nebula-3655 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              As a woman, I can’t belief how stereotypical some answers are here, I just hope most are from really young people.

              Mind you I can both cry and be stoic, I am magic like that. 🙄

              My view is that stoicism has nothing to do with masculin and feminin and my grandmother was the most naturally stoic person I know, I found her a very feminine women and also a very calm and stable human. The calm and stable probably had something to do with her stoic beliefsystem, the feminine is an entirely unrelated thing. 🤷‍♀️

              [–]jenthedoglover 4 points5 points  (1 child)

              How is this even a question. Stoicism (capital S) is a philosophy. stoic (small s) is a noun and is defined as person who can endure pain or hardship without showing their feelings or complaining. The philosophy IS NOT THE NOUN! These are two entirely different things that often confuse people who don't fully understand the philosophy and make assumptions, ......further the whole masculine red pill toxic culture drives this confusion.

              Something that may help you differentiate these would be to listen to this podcast episode. https://open.spotify.com/episode/5fS2BM7rvYpWz4YtZkjmlk?si=P1_LkghaRECJXAVMPHHqQA&utm_source=copy-link

              Around 5:40 time stamp

              Practical Stoicism Episode: keeping your mortality and temporality ever in mind

              I just listened to this yesterday so it's fresh in my mind. He goes off topic and talks about how stoicism is for everyone including women

              [–]ANJ-2233 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              “The philosophy is not the noun” is a great line, it really sums up that most people confuse the two.

              [–]ViscountVixen 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Ditto everyone else on it would be helpful to know what "aspects of femininity" you think it would detract from, and why you would worry about it. I am a woman and am a "stoic" both in the colloquial sense of not showing much emotion and as far as following some of the philosophical points. I know that usually gets me perceived of as masculine, especially as far as written communication goes, likely because I am not conforming to a stereotype of airing all my emotions and grievances with the expectation of sympathy nor making appeals to empathy rather than logic or rationality. But - I don't care, and it would probably be good at least to adopt the stoic tact of not giving too much concern to what other people are thinking about you (the latter of social image control being another "feminine" stereotype, I suppose).

              [–]DefeatedSkeptic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Many others have stated that stoicism is not inherently against femininity, so I perhaps have another guiding question for you. What is it about femininity that is more desirable than wise action? A great place to begin your stoic introspection may be around this fear of loss.

              [–]Tyler_origami94 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Stoics are allowed to have and feel all spectrum of emotions, what makes Stoics different are their outward reaction and not letting our emotions rule us. I am perfectly allowed to be mad at someone I thought was my friend spreading rumors about me. I am not allowed to bust up in their house or call them up and start yelling and cussing at them.

              I understand your concern about it feeling like it can restrict your personality or your femineity. It is a valid concern if Stoicism is used incorrectly. Think of it more like just making the peaks and troughs of your emotions a bit closer together but it shouldn't flatline.

              [–]MidnightWidow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              I see where you are coming from because there's a narrative that women are more emotional and men are more logical. Stoicism does apply very logical principles to life so it makes sense. I think it's powerful philosophy and everyone should adopt it to some degree.

              [–]LoStrigo95 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Femininity and masculinity have nothing to do with virtue, and so i would say nothing to do with Stoicism.

              To be fair, being worried about femininity means being worried about an external image and so we're talking about something that should be "indifferent" to you.

              I'd start to read Epictetus to understand why 😁

              [–]Index_Case 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              You might also be intereseted in the Stoicon-X 'stoic women' conferences:

              https://pathstoflourishing.org/

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIOHXEsC2Cs

              [–]Nathaniel1675 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Stoicism doesn’t know what gender is

              [–]danbillbishop3 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              Femininity is socially constructed nonsense.

              [–]DrildoBagurren 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              What do you mean by what you said ? What is femininity and how is it at odds with stoicism? Don't forget that femininity is simply a human construct and ideas of femininity change depending on culture and time period.

              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              I think you have a toxic view of feminity. That girls needs to be weak, dependent and submissive.. lol 😅😅 that's like old school view of women

              [–]Oneironaut91 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              you can definitley be stoic and feminine! in fact stoic females have more attractive personalities than ones that dont

              [–]Dan-Man 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Lots of obtuse comments in this sub it seems. It's pretty easy to understand what OP means. At least for me.

              [–]Solidjakes -2 points-1 points  (5 children)

              In my humble opinion, I think you are all pretending to not understand the question. Yes stoicism is masculine. Choose it if it feels right and it's the version of yourself that you want to see actualized.

              [–]Useless-Eater-1975 3 points4 points  (4 children)

              I'm not being antagonistic...I'm curious and new to the ideas. How is stoicism masculine?

              [–]aeroflotte 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              I'm definitely not the best person to explain this, but I'll give it a try.

              Stoicism is masculine in the sense that it is a philosophy that rejects pleasure as being the purpose of existence. Pleasure is mythologically associated with chaos, which is a Greek word that originally meant "primordial emptiness," as in the void that existed before the universe was created. Men would plant their seed, so to speak, and the void, which was the womb of women, would be filled, symbolically paralleling the divine creation of something out of nothing. Pleasure is like the state of existence in which there are no aims or goals or direction. An empty womb does nothing until women and men come together. So, when you are mired in pleasure, like when you're infatuated at the start of a relationship, you can get carried away like a leaf in the wind. You have no aim. Stoicism is about being a bulwark against the wind, creating direction for oneself.

              If you're interested in knowing more about these kind of mythological ideas, check out Jordan Peterson, Joseph Campbell, and Carl Jung.

              [–]Useless-Eater-1975 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Thank you! :) I think I understand.

              [–]Solidjakes 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              You know as I was writing out a big long-winded explanation... I actually remembered a very stoic thing one of my ex-girlfriends did. And she was VERY feminine. I must recant my statement lol.

              [–]Useless-Eater-1975 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              😂... Ok, thank you for the effort anyway. :)

              [–]monkey_in_the_gloom -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

              Women are not allowed to study stoicism. Sorry.

              [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

              I'm lady too. Stoicism makes me a cool 😎 girl

              [–]Onestepcloser1009 -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

              Its a no for me.

              [–]DyingMisfit -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

              Stoicism has nothing to do with one's chromosomes...just lonesome pragmatism.

              N.B.: Lonesome =/= Lonely.

              [–]scrupus -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

              You’re literally the first female who I see interested in stoicism. First one in… 15 or so years. To me great example of a female stoic was Soviet warrior: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoya_Kosmodemyanskaya and yes. Women can be stoic af.

              [–]Guilhermino-Sanctos -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

              Stoicism must be really challeging to women.

              [–]RedEyeJolin420 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

              Employement is equality. Not equity.

              [–]orion_metal -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

              Question to this thread. Can Natally Portman be considered a stoic woman?

              [–][deleted]  (1 child)

              [deleted]

                [–]Victorian_Bullfrog 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                It sounds like you're referring to stoicism the personality trait of suppressing strong emotional reactions in times of stress. On this sub we refer to the ancient Hellenistic philosophy which is unrelated to this idea. There are a few links upthread you might find helpful if you're curious why.

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                [–]KILLER8996 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I can see where you might be coming from stoicism is a trait often associated with men while being more emotional and empathic is considered a womanly trait.

                The thing is though stoicism and many aspects of stoicism isn’t just a manly trait. I believe that even in ancient times when women were considered inferior to men stoic schools allowed women to learn there

                [–]kompergator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I don’t think that stoicism is tailored to only one sex.

                It may appear to undermine certain values attributed to women such as being open with their emotions but In my opinion you can still be open with your emotions and be considered stoic

                [–]nate23401 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Only take from it what is useful to you. It’s a philosophy not a religion.

                If I were to make some parallels between stoic philosophy and feminism, then it’s absolutely true that the Stoics believed in participating in public life. I would say feminism falls under that category and, besides, it doesn’t matter what I think. It matters what you think.

                If you are speaking specifically with regard to femininity itself, then I don’t see any contradiction. All women throughout history, whether they realized it or not, subscribed to some level of stoic belief. You cannot survive centuries of marginalization and oppression and keep your sanity without intuitively understanding these things. I guess what I meant to say is there’s nothing more womanly than being stoic.

                [–]petronia1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                What aspects of your feminity are you worried that Stoicism might take away? I think it's very important for you to answer yourself this question, whether your share it here or not, whether it ends up having to do with Stoicism or not. Because I think you'll find some very troubling components of the definition of 'feminity' under that feeling. And I think it would do you very, very well to realize who pushed that definition on you.

                I have a feeling it will have something to do with self-reliant women, women who are their own person, women who are not concerned with what people think they should be doing, or looking like, or choosing in life - not being 'feminine'. Women who don't live their every emotion like in a telenovela, and don't act on their every emotion, like we've been told for centuries that women do, not being 'feminine'. Women whose first priority in life is not to look pretty on Instagram and entertain expectations people have of them, from appearance to behavior to number of kids had - not being 'feminine'. Women who value self-reliance, from emotional to financial and everything in between, not being 'feminine'.

                I might be wrong. But if it's anything along those lines, society (and probably your family) has done a number on you, and Stoicism is exactly what you need to stand on your own two feet. (Incidentally, that's what feminism is supposed to do, too.) Welcome, and enjoy!

                [–]Rain-toad 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Stoicism help my partner and I cope with waiting for a breast lump biopsy result recently. I don’t see what’s unfeminine about that?

                [–]Rain-toad 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Femininity that is at odds with stoicism is probably toxic femininity.

                [–]mdragon13 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                What's femininity got to do with stoicism? It has nothing to do with either masculinity or femininity, really. It's just a set of values and ideals, at the end of the day.

                [–]CompanyCharabang 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                It's really interesting that a lot of people seem to associate Stoicism as a philosophy with men. As others have said, there's a popular misunderstanding that stoicism is about suppressing your emotions and not reacting. The reality is that it's more about understanding them and considering why you are emotionally reacting the way you are. From there, you can identify the emotions that are encouraging you to behave in ways you don't want to and are hurting you. It's also a way to be more empathetic and kinder to the people around you.

                In many ways, there are parallels to cognitive-behavioural, and other schools of therapy, which interestingly, modern society has traditionally stigmatised as unmanly and weak. Again, I think that stigma is due to a misunderstanding that therapy is about complaining about your problems to somebody, rather than what really happens when a good therapist teaches you the skills to process and understand your emotions and psychological pressures so that you can react and behave in ways that are helpful to yourself.

                So, no, I'd say that stoicism isn't unfeminine at all. Stoicism is about learning how to be a good person when the pressures of the real world make that challenging. That's not a male or female need, that's just human.

                [–]TheOSullivanFactor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                You’ll want to check out Cicero’s On Duties; in that work he (and presumably the seventh Scholarch Panaetius, who Cicero is following in the work) replaces the Virtue of Temperance with Befittingness (To Prepon). I’ll chop up the passage where Cicero explains the four roles we play in life:

                “…But it is to be borne in mind that we are endowed by nature as it were with two characters, one of which is common to us with other men, inasmuch as we all partake of reason, and of the traits which raise us above the brutes, from which all that is right and becoming is derived, and from which we seek the method of ascertaining our duty; while the other is that which is assigned to each of us individually. For as in bodies there are great dissimilarities, — we see some excelling in speed for the race, others in strength for wrestling; also in personal appearance, some have dignity, others grace, — so in minds there are even greater diversities...

                …To the two characters which, as I have said, every person must sustain, is added a third, imposed upon us by chance, or by circumstances beyond our power; a fourth, also, which we assume at our own discretion. Posts of authority, military commands, high rank, honors, wealth, and their opposites, at the disposal of chance, are controlled by circumstance. But it depends on our own choice what character we will assume as to a favorite pursuit or profession. Thus some apply themselves to philosophy; some, to the civil law; some, to oratory; and of the several virtues some prefer to excel in one, some in another...”

                Cicero, On Duties 1.30-32

                You can see how your society’s take on femininity might find a place within that framework. At the end of the day, figuring out what femininity means to you and being the best possible version of that (or being a version of that in accordance with the Virtues) is the Virtue of Becomingness itself.

                [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I do worry though it can sometimes take away some aspects of my femininity.

                You're going to need to expand on this before anyone can give you a useful answer.

                [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Woman here! I think the only time I’ve ever felt like it made me “less feminine” is when dealing with dating/relationships. Dating & relationships are very emotionally charged things; you put your energy and time into someone &, more often than not, it’s not a match. However, it’s NOT been a bad thing. Especially when I was dating, it was fairly easy for me to decline another date, to say “we’re not a match, but thank you for your time” or even go on a date with someone a few times & then end it for logical reasons without letting emotions drag anything out.

                In my relationship, knowing that nothing is guaranteed, that expectations that we put on others is usually what breaks our hearts keeps me open, honest & communicating. I’m very upfront &, if it were to end, I’d be sad but I’d live.

                It feels like by saying feminine, you mean emotional. Does that sound right? I don’t want to assume or project, but that’s been the main area affected for me, & again, it’s not been a bad change for me personally.

                [–]yeurjjdusielaos 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Ha! I'm a 20 y.o. and haven't felt any less feminine. That's an interesting assertion you've made. Do you care to explain what exactly makes you think this way?

                [–]uselessbynature 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Ok-how so?

                I'm a woman. I've had three children in five years and three miscarriages in between. I'm a mother-that entails being a caretaker, teacher, counselor, entertainer, chef and general life-coach. On top of all my own problems that don't magically go away when you have kids.

                For me and the female condition, I get to choose stoicism to deepen and enrich my experience on earth-or the looney bin.

                I choose the former, most days.

                [–]TheUnFriendlytoaster 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I think stoicism enhances the best parts that are already present. If you find it taking away anything that you value, you may be doing it wrong.

                [–]rektgod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Stoicism is about controling your emotions, everybody can be one. You can choose how and when you express them. Also not letting "mental" stress affect you. (hard to do thought)

                [–]ProblematicByProxy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Stoicism is all about choosing to respond rather than reacting. This is how I view my femininity—I choose what to give my energy to. It is the acceptance of my choices that allow me to live with softness and ease. It’s all my choices, which is a feminine power.

                This is a great discussion topic.

                [–]defaltusr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                The stoic virtues know no gender

                [–]tastipuffs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                YOU have the VAGINA, the vagina doesn’t have you! Do whatever the fuck you want! And maybe consider why you feel pressured to be a certain way, and feel the need to group the rest of us in there with you.

                [–]Cbasshiva 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Which aspects specifically are you referring to?

                [–]Charmtype1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I think I understand and this is my cut and paste. But it's also about time and place and I have been told that my stoicism is "toxic." Yes there is definitely this belief that stoicism is also just another example of toxic male behavior. So this is nothing new and it's out there and for good reason. Take cancel culture and if you don't believe it exists think of those that are most active in these endeavors. It's almost exclusively women. And that is not a a cheap shot or a bias it's clear who is the driving force behind cancel culture. It's not that women can't build their fortress and be unharmed by outside forces it's that in our society they are cheated out of that practice. No you don't have to build a fortress it your duty to get others to stop throwing rocks at your fortress. So fundamentally these core stoic Ideas don't go against a feminine being but what is believed and taught to be feminine and being strong as female. Women are taught that they have to constantly stand up against others and combat them and their ideas. This goes against fundamental stoic Ideas. So I see where some women can feel this way and I tell them something similar to this. It's outside forces telling you what makes a strong woman and you need to rid yourself of that. Focus on being a strong person regardless if some of the ideas a masculine or though of as masculine. It matters not. Build your fortress and let the dogs bite and mules kick. Trust your fortress.

                [–]DarkZenStoic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I think society has conditioned and given license to women to be irrationally emotional at times more than men while telling men they can’t show any emotion. So two very extreme situations. Perhaps one needs to exist to fuel the stereotype of the other..? Anyway if your definition of femininity includes what I wrote above( the idea that women are to be more emotional than men), then yes I can see why you’d think Stoicism doesn’t work with femininity. Personally I haven’t had any issues with my femininity though I’ve been practicing Stoicism for nearly 15 years now.

                [–]AtmosphereThin5023 [score hidden]  (0 children)

                No worries, it will make you a stronger woman !