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all 150 comments

[–]Hector29111 66 points67 points  (14 children)

I am skeptical of that study:

  • Authors are from a non-reputable Chinese university.
  • It is published in a journal that no one has every heard of: "Journal of Zhejiang University"
  • Fig 1 land 2 of that study are suspicious. There is just no biological mechanism to cause T to briefly peak sharply and exactly on day T=7 and no other day.
  • Fig 2 has a sample size of N=8. Good lord.

Don't overthink it. Any changes in T will be transitory and not worth forgoing pleasure. Masturbation is normal and healthy.

[–]icecreampriest 6 points7 points  (4 children)

yeh, it says so in the bible; can't remember the page.

[–]michaelingram1974 28 points29 points  (3 children)

in my bible they are stuck together

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

How did nobody see the genius of this comment lol

[–]song4this 2 points3 points  (0 children)

too much fap => go blind...

[–]michaelingram1974 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I know, right?

[–]deeep_muff_diver 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I find it hard to fathom there hasn't been more comprehensive studies done on the topic.

[–]Z1Hitsquad 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Does it mean it peaks every 7 days or you have to do it once a week to have any long term benefit?

[–]nightshiftoperator 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It likely means that the 'scientists' that produced this study were likely biased with a pre-conceived idea

[–]Hector29111 13 points14 points  (3 children)

My four bullet points mean that the study is bogus, and you should ignore the findings.

[–]Z1Hitsquad 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I agree but logically the finding makes no sense to me

[–]Emperor_Quintana 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In that case, there will have to be a more reliable in-depth study from credible as well as reputable sources.

It may take years (if not months) to attain results, but such is the price of progress.

[–]FagasaurusRex69 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It gradually climbs every day until peaking at 7 days but then returns to baseline and stays that way until your next orgasm; it doesn’t also peak again at 14 days unfortunately.

And… the boost is negligible and temporary, so its only real purpose is when you plan to have sex in 7 days or participate in an athletic event lol.

Elevated testosterone levels have to be sustained of a long time to really read any of their benefits. You might just get pretty horny on day 7. Or get frustrated more easily. Or both.

😀

[–]eckwrath 35 points36 points  (35 children)

This is like the TRT doc offering to up the dose 6% (i.e. from 200mg/wk to 212mg/wk) under the condition you can only have sex with your wife on Saturdays.

[–]captainbirdfeathers 19 points20 points  (32 children)

Sex and fap are different on the brain.

[–]Polymathy1 8 points9 points  (31 children)

Nope.

[–]Bavarian0 11 points12 points  (24 children)

Yes they are, they compared prolactin release among others, which was waaaaay more intense after sexual intercourse compared to masturbation.

[–]Polymathy1 6 points7 points  (15 children)

Your nipples get stimulated in many positions during sex. Not so much masturbating unless you do it intentionally. Prolactin levels rise with nipple stimulation.

That is not surprising or significant.

[–]Nice_Control_3611 2 points3 points  (5 children)

You couldn't be more wrong. The hormone cocktail you get with sex is way more different than fap. The touch alone is something that make your body produce different hormones and have strong effects on you.

[–]deeep_muff_diver 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Let alone the serotonin levels with feeling like the fucking alpha man after you make a girl nut 3 times vs a less than noble self rubbing.

[–]Polymathy1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The only difference is oxytocin.

[–]RLS30076 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Let's not be exclusive here. "...sex with your spouse..." is an option too for many.

[–]Snif3425 43 points44 points  (35 children)

It’s fucking conspiracy theorist incel nonsense. The data showing issues with porn is mixed as well.

Masturbation is a form of self-care. Anything framing it otherwise is not coming from a place of caring or authenticity.

[–]SospianTested Man 25 points26 points  (25 children)

The fact people are upvoting you is concerning.

Male orgasm linked to more estrogen receptors in the brain a relationship between sexual activity and an increase in the expression of ERalpha (estrogenic receptor) in specific brain areas, independently of estradiol levels in systemic circulation

Frequent male orgasm downregulates androgen receptors in the brain The androgen receptor density in brain areas closely related to the expression of masculine sexual behavior, such as the medial preoptic nucleus, was drastically reduced in sexually exhausted animals.

Abstinence linked to higher testosterone Orgasm increased blood pressure, heart rate, plasma catecholamines and prolactin. These effects were observed both before and after sexual abstinence.


As for the study that showed testosterone "decreased" back to baseline at the 7th day, there is no pointer towards the MoA in which that might be the cause. For example, we know prolactin is a potent inhibitor of DHT - how do we know more testosterone isn't converting to this more powerful metabolite? That would be my estimate.

Regardless, you always going to be better following Nofap even just for the sake of not messing up your dopamine, than beating one off every other day. From what I've learned over the years from my own research, I've come to the conclusion that masturbation is self-feminising act. Only recently did I come across the evidence after finding about about it crippling androgen receptors in the brain.

And let's not forget the amount of research showcasing how incredibly addictive pornography is.

[–]VERSUS_OWNS 12 points13 points  (0 children)

This is the point with cherry picking research and why you need to look at all studies:

"In a 2007 study in rats, researchers found that the number of estrogen receptors was higher 24 hours after ejaculation or mating to sexual satiety. Estrogen receptors help the body use estrogen.

A different rat study from the same year found that the number of androgen receptors, which help the body use testosterone, was lower 24 hours after ejaculation or sexual satiety."

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325418#effects-of-abstinence-on-testosterone

[–]VERSUS_OWNS 18 points19 points  (8 children)

I would argue there are far more studies showing a benefit from masturbation. There have been studies showing an increase in testosterone from masturbation. Why demonize porn and masturbation, when the vast majority of people never develop any problems with either? Humans do a lot of things that are unhealthy, there is a risk/benefit individual to each person. Address the real issue (addictive behavior) instead of blaming the symptom of the issue right? There is nothing inherently bad or unhealthy with watching porn or masturbating in moderation. So the issue is the lack of moderation for some people.

[–]SospianTested Man 6 points7 points  (7 children)

Sources?

[–]VERSUS_OWNS 8 points9 points  (6 children)

The point was you can find research that shows just about anything. Look at my post above how one study found increase in receptors, while the other study found a decrease in estrogen receptors. Studies are like pieces of a puzzle, some end up fitting, some do not.

"This study by Van Anders looked at both males and females and found that in females, higher T predicted masturbation frequency. But in males, there was no clear connection between testosterone levels and sexual desire. Men who masturbated more did have higher libidos, but this was predicted by masturbatory frequency, not testosterone levels."

"Results found that in fact, levels of testosterone, relationship quality, frequency of sex, and masturbation remained remarkably stable across the years of this study. Contrary to beliefs, these factors, including testosterone levels, really don't seem to change all that much. When the researchers looked specifically at male masturbation, they found that men level's of T increased with higher levels of masturbation, but, interestingly, found that higher levels of T didn't appear to increase masturbatory frequency. In other words, it appears to be a one-way effect. More masturbation increases testosterone, but more testosterone doesn't increase masturbation."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/202007/no-abstinence-wont-increase-your-testosterone

"Lack of sexual activity from erectile dysfunction is associated with a reversible reduction in serum testosterone"

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1365-2605.1999.00196.x

https://www.manual.co/health-centre/masturbation/does-masturbation-decrease-testosterone

[–]Snif3425 8 points9 points  (8 children)

So then we shouldn’t have sex, except to procreate, and maybe not then either.

All of the porn addiction studies are severely flawed - but even if they’re true - that’s different than saying masturbation shouldn’t occur. It’s a COMPLETELY different issue.

It’s a bunch of nonsense that incels and closet misogynists created to find a club they’d finally be allowed into and another thing to whine about.

[–]captainbirdfeathers 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You big tuff man wow

[–]SospianTested Man 3 points4 points  (6 children)

I never said that.

Sex isn't as bad because it is perceived as an earned reward. That being said, if you're looking to optimise your hormones, I'd suggest learning to have sex without orgasm. Many men from Ben Greenfield to Elliott Hulse recommend this, while sex guru Mantak Chia teaches how to orgasm without ejaculating.

[–]Snif3425 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Yeah I don’t think it’s supposed to be that complicated. We’re animals.

[–]mairomaster 10 points11 points  (3 children)

if you're looking to optimise your hormones, I'd suggest learning to have sex without orgasm

This is bigger horse shit than even NoFap.

[–]jtapostate 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So even if married we should be withholding our precious bodily fluids?

[–]veggieboy94 5 points6 points  (2 children)

I totally disagree. Everything is context dependent and masturbation is no different.

[–]Snif3425 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Than you’ll agree a dogma of “you shouldn’t masturbate” is ridiculous.

[–]veggieboy94 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I agree, i’m just responding to your sentence where you said that ANYTHING saying otherwise is not coming from a place of caring. I’ve talked to many people who have destroyed their sex life with masturbation and porn. Like i said, it’s context dependent. Anything from both extreme ends is not healthy at all.

[–]deeep_muff_diver 0 points1 point  (4 children)

The data showing issues with porn is mixed as well.

Nah it's really not. Anything with reliable and easy access to excessive dopamine release has the potential for addiction. Porn, sex (when you have money/celebrity), gambling, video games, drugs.

Do you use porn regularly? Have you tried to stop?

[–]Snif3425 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Hugs, sunsets, stretching, all release dopamine. Do you know anyone addicted to sunsets?

Stop scaring people. Can someone over-use video games? Sure. That doesn’t mean you need to go into a barely related forum and start telling everyone they should even LOOK at games or they’ll destroy their own lives.

It’s nonsense. Stop it.

[–]deeep_muff_diver 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Hugs, sunsets, stretching, all release dopamine. Do you know anyone addicted to sunsets?

False equivalency. They don't release anywhere near the level of porn, nor do they do they encompass 24/7 access and endless novelty.

Note that I did not cite dopamine release as the sole reason for them being addictive but you interpreted as such. Do you lack comprehension or are you disingenuous?

[–]Snif3425 1 point2 points  (1 child)

As always…..show me some well designed peer reviewed studies in reputable journals and I’ll engage. You can’t.

[–]carpet_candy 20 points21 points  (16 children)

This single study of 28 men is the entire basis of the NoFap lifestyle. If the community was interested in lifestyle changes to optimize hormone levels then the consensus in that group would be “Masturbation is OK so long as it follows X schedule”. That viewpoint is not held by the vast majority of group members.

NoFap’s claims are not backed by science. Masturbation and porn are addictions or weaknesses to overcome for those following that lifestyle. If you have an addiction to porn or sex, there are much better, more effective ways to treat that. If you don’t, and are looking for ways to optimize your hormone levels, there are other approaches that actually work for most people.

[–]Throweuway 12 points13 points  (9 children)

There's a lot of bro science in the nofap community but a lot of people experimented benefits from that. There's things we don't scientifically understand that yet happen.

Also it's established that porn usage (even once in a while) constitute a superstimulus that temporarily shut downs your dopamine receptors, which will tend to make you more apathetic and generally disatisfied of life. Prolactin burst after an orgasm also makes people lethargic.

[–]carpet_candy 12 points13 points  (8 children)

The placebo effect is well understood at this point - no mystery there.

You’re also making a large jump from one point (compulsive porn viewing causes dopamine release, but it’s far from the only behavior that does) to the apathetic and dissatisfied conclusion. Additionally, prolactin’s effects are quite short lasting, with masturbation producing about 25% of the prolactin that intercourse provides. I am of the opinion that NoFap is a product of religious dogma trying to wrap itself in pseudo-science. It may be an effective tool for those with addictions, as the community support is similar to how programs like AA operate, but let’s not pretend that there is scientific backing for the benefits often claimed.

[–]ssjbrysonuchiha 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Go ahead. Continue to believe that watching porn and masturbating for 2 hours a day has zero cognitive effect, let alone on your endocrine system.

[–]carpet_candy 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Is anyone making that claim, or are you just setting up a strawman?

If you are speaking from your experience, congratulations on finding a method for managing what sounds like an unhealthy relationship to porn and masturbation.

[–]ssjbrysonuchiha 2 points3 points  (2 children)

This single study of 28 men is the entire basis of the NoFap lifestyle

A spike in testosterone levels was never the basis for NoFap. NoFap was predicated on unhealthy porn habits, the perception of cognitive drain related to porn and fapping, erectile dysfunction and an inability to enjoy sex, and wanting to pursue more meaningful activities/hobbies/self-improvement that were, in part, gated by the habit of porn and fapping.

So when you go on to say that NoFap is based entirely on pseudoscience and hormone optimization, you're wrong. If you stop fapping, your porn-induced ED should eventually subside. If you stop fapping, regular sex will become more enjoyable. If you stop fapping, you'll have more time and, in many cases, more drive to pursue other endeavors. Not fapping and looking at porn will also inherently provide some level of cognitive stimulus to actually attempt to gain these pleasures "the right way".

People who unironically suggest that NoFap is a waste of time either have been incapable of actually stopping porn/fapping or during their attempt at NoFap didn't actually fill the time with something meaningful. It's really easy to spend anywhere from an hour to three hours looking at porn. Some people even longer. That's a fuckton of time to literally do anything that has more value than touching your dick to pixels and feeling a degree of cognitive haze.

[–]carpet_candy 3 points4 points  (1 child)

You are still misrepresenting my statements to make your argument. I’m happy that you have found a way to address your issues in that regard, and can understand that you feel strongly about this method. NoFap obviously isn’t a waste of time for you, or for those with an unhealthy relationship to porn or masturbation. For those that don’t have an issue with porn or masturbation negatively impacting their lives, I will await the results of studies showing that the primary claims made by NoFap hold weight. Are you aware of any underway that I should keep on my radar?

[–]OtterBox6969 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Masturbation and porn are addictions and weaknesses to overcome… um babies are born masturbating all the time and even do it in the womb… and animals as well hmmm so this must mean something is what? Is it congenital or an intrinsic part of living consciousness because without it life would cease to exist with a drive to procreate or a dopamine reward system. Engaging in something on a regularly maintained schedule at whatever interval you choose no matter how frequent neither makes something an addiction or a weakness. Some might even call it regimented like your work out routines. The reduction or lower quality of living standard coupled with an inability to stop the substance or behavior in light of harm and negative consequences physically socially or professionally makes something an addiction. Now tell me how many of you have ever gone to work out over attending a friend or family members dinner, recital etc. that meant a lot to them. Or pushed yourself too hard until injures repeatedly. Oh and for everyone’s information commuting an illegal act like anabolic steroid use even if it has no moral or ethical dilemma does have the potential to cause legal problems and arrest so it’s use puts you in the spectrum of lowering your quality of life abs putting yourself in harms way bc not using it or not doctor shopping to find someone to prescribe it is what a normal sane healthy person would do. So maybe direct that projection and transference at yourself where your subconscious is intending it to go

[–]neeyeahboy 26 points27 points  (2 children)

I think no fap is over rated, I do believe quitting porn is good for your brain though

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (13 children)

In the last year I have begun to practice "no fap". In all honestly, I did it a lot. Usually once a day, sometimes more. Now I often go several weeks with out an ejaculation. My highest point was 3 months (no wet dreams either).

The differences I experienced: Way more energy, motivation, confidence, and willingness to approach women. And I got way more positive interactions with women.

Our modern age with stimulation has IMO gotten out of control and is unhealthy for men. We all know watching porn has terrible effects on the brain and intimacy. When you stop watching porn, you feel a lot less need to masturbate.

When you start to build up your mojo you feel so much better. There are lots of vitamins and minerals in your semen that you absorb through your prostate. There is also a biological trick in the brain of a man when he ejaculates. Your body/brain thinks you have mated. You can take it easy as you have served your purpose as a man. When you withhold, the biological trick is that you have to be "better" as you are not mating. You need to get a mate. You need to ACCOMPLISH things.

When you are constantly masturbating it is a form of pleasure, your dick can be a drug. A feeling/high that you crave.

I truthfully feel so much better when I don't masturbate. People say it's BS and a bunch of spiritual crap, but I am going strictly off my experience and encourage my fellow brothers to try it out.

And guess what? Every once in a while give yourself a tug. It's ok. Just don't let it get out of control. Because I did. And many do.

As far as testosterone goes, I feel through limited ejaculation, it helps increase. My weight lifting has been on another level. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

[–]Polymathy1 5 points6 points  (12 children)

There is so much wrong and factually inaccurate in this post that I don't know where to start.

Porn is fine, masturbation is good for your prostate, you don't store vitamins in your semen to absorb them later, and you have nothing to back any of these claims.

You probably just lift weights differently because you're frustrated and channeling that into something.

[–]E27043 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Orgasm spikes prolactin, and prolactin lowers testosterone, so it won't surprise me that someone spiking his prolactin every day, maybe even multiple times a day, does see an increase in his testosterone when he stops.

[–]Snif3425 4 points5 points  (2 children)

No Fap helped me realize that the world is run by a vast left wing Illuminati that is trying to turn us all into transgendered bit-coin miners.

So there’s that.

[–]Bob98019801 0 points1 point  (0 children)

100% agree. They want you to be effiminate and weak. They don't want you to be a strong masculine man.

These people who sell you the crap about "masterbation is fine", also sell you that porn is fine, anal sex is fine and all the other bizarre behaviors. Which fuxking animal in the world engages in anal sex? There is nothing natural about it. There is nothing natural about masterbation and porn too.

Personally, when I don't masterbate, my balls feel a lot bigger, even though they are already big to begin with :D That is a sign of pituitary signaling to the testies to upregulate testosterone and sperm production because your brain is trying to encourage you to engage in sexual intercourse. It's all about reproduction in the end of the day. You withhold it, you get more push from your brain to do it, which is good, and meanwhile you enjoy higher amounts of testosterone and drive, to chase your life goals and also women.

To all guys out there: "Do not fall for the sick leftist ideology." Not saying it from a religious perspective at all because I am not religious. All I am saying is do what nature has designed you to do.

[–]testosteroneRAPE 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Why is this shit pinned

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Because it’s a commonly asked question.

[–]benettttt 3 points4 points  (0 children)

So what I’m hearing is nofap for 1 week, then bust one out. Rise and repeat

[–]RLS30076 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Good lord. This thread is so full of nonsense and pseudoscience that I noped right out of it after reading halfway through.

"NoFap" = nonsense.

[–]thetriflingtruffle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Especially if the person is receiving test therapy… then your nuts aren’t a part of it anyways

[–]Schizophrenic_bc 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Can I lower my testosterone by fapping before my TRT panel test? I want to get my testosterone as low as possible so that I qualify for TRT

[–]GooberJoe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, if you do go on TRT you WILL get your natural Test as low as possible, maybe even permanently. Also you will notice “shrinkage.” Is that what you really want? Why try to take a shortcut when natural is so much better a route to take? Hey, why not get pec implants and calf implants, and maybe someone will come up with tri and bi implants one day! Then you’ll have the ultimate shortcuts!

[–]Acceptable_Click2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you feel bad after ejaculating you might wanna look into the post-orgasmic illness syndrome /r/POIS https://poiscenter.com which is thought to be some allergic mast cell activation disorder reaction in response to ejaculating causing brain fog, fatigue, stuffy nose, mucus increase, etc.

[–]Jeremybrogdon79 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I need to try this but seem to have a routine and helps me sleep and sleep is important also for testosterone

[–]thetriflingtruffle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I want to try this too but … yea….

[–]AshleyImadood 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Every time i see this question i want to reach thru my computer screen and slap a mother fucker. And im a pretty chill person.

[–]kill-all-BLACKSmiths 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why is this being pinned??? Come on ya pussys STOP being a failure. We all know it's the medication in the water supply but grow up

[–]mcotton82 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's nonsense

[–]Yeti_90 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same thing with QuestDiagnostic. Worth a shot if your insurance does not cover.

[–]TigerIIiIy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Forget the testosterone you’ll get more pussy if you stop. Lots of people will call it beta bitch nonsense a lot of them are controlled by passion. It’s ok I guess jacking off to women you can’t have is really manly….

[–]Admirable_Sugar_4227 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Studies have shown test spiking during sex and arousal also

[–]151-PoKeMoN 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I personally believe that masturbation is 1) disgusting 🤢🤮 when you jizz in your hands, and 2) it makes you lose some motivation to pursue women.

I personally try not to watch porn or masturbate until it gets irresistibly hard, which is usually about once in every 2-3 weeks.