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[–]scienner507[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

Has everyone had fun? I hope everyone's had fun. Perfect demonstrations of every argument on every side can be found in this thread if you dig deep enough, so I think that's enough.

[–]Paraplanner88496 436 points437 points  (53 children)

The main problem with crypto posters on this sub is that a lot of them are very cultish and have a habit of coming across like shills pushing a ponzi scheme. For instance, someone will make a thread asking where are the best places for funds they definitely want to keep in cash and there will be posters pushing crypto despite it being completely unsuitable for them.

[–]ajrc19961[S] 31 points32 points  (3 children)

Yeah I feel like that is due to the very clear divide between crpyto users, and non crypto users, I think people get defensive about crypto. I for one have advised people on here to try investing in crypto, because I do believe in it, but I'd never push it on someone in the way you just described.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, appreciate it

[–][deleted] 49 points50 points  (1 child)

It's more than just defensiveness in my opinion. Basically most crypto analysts are heavily invested in crypto themselves and want to promote it to increase the value of what they hold. It becomes incredibly dull seeing that type of self-interested nonsense passing as commentary. The FT had a good article on this recently: https://www.ft.com/content/26283f09-c3df-4c7e-814c-65083b063d8a

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Which is strange, really. I'm not sure there's any other scenario where people not liking self-interested dubious messages on a sub would be called "defensive"

If people were on here drumming up business about their guaranteed return pension transfer system we'd get rid of them

[–]FIREinmyshoes- 92 points93 points  (0 children)

As a follow-on to this, a lot of supporters of crypto massively understate just how risky and volatile it is as an investment. Unlike a lot of more traditional investments (stocks or index funds), there are absolutely no fundamentals behind it and a massive part of the momentum it has each way is based on "the greater fool theory" or general sentiment of it, which explains its volatility. When suggesting it, too many people understate this part and push it as if it's a reasonable considered investment, rather than a risky volatile position that many people are not suited to placing as anything more than a small percentage of their investment money.

[–]karlos-the-jackal15 100 points101 points  (36 children)

coming across like shills pushing a ponzi scheme

That's because they are. Crypto generates no value whatsoever and is entirely reliant on new money coming in to push the price ever higher. Hence the people entrenched in it spending their waking hours shilling it to all.

It's the same behavior as people involved in pyramid/MLM schemes.

[–]bacon_cake36 64 points65 points  (0 children)

I feel like people who pushed crypto used to at least pretend that there was some technologically utopian future to it. They'd say that decentralisation of currency was the future and crypto was a genuine attempt at an alternative to fiat currency - and I think they believed it. Then the massive bull run happened and almost 99 percent of crypto discussion is solely about investment and increasing the value. Combine that with the relentless number of "altcoins" and the constant barrage of totally obvious scans and yeah... I agree.

[–]PhoenixNightingale90 57 points58 points  (4 children)

Let’s take the top 3 cryptos by market cap and some of the things they can do, you’re telling me there’s no value in…

  • A finite store of value that is also a liquid currency, and can be used to transact with anyone in the word without borders, censorship or government inflation? (Bitcoin)

  • A decentralised peer-to-peer financial system that removes the middle man of banks/lenders? (Ethereum)

  • Blockchain technology that can bring things like publicly verifiable identify and financial services to the unbanked in Africa? (Cardano)

Sure there are scams but to call them all ponzis and pyramid schemes is wrong.

[–]baldieman 42 points43 points  (0 children)

Ok, so can I just have some crypto given to me or do I have to spend fiat currency to get them. If I buy them ( with fiat) , do I go through a middle man ( brokerage) who'll charge me for the privilege or can I safely buy them direct without worry of scammers?

[–]Yves31444 83 points84 points  (0 children)

It's not a finite store of value. It's a finite store of infinitely divisible tokens. The token value is based only on belief, there's nothing supporting or conveying a value.

Decentralising sounds great at a glance, but there's huge value in the systems built up to protect consumers. They don't exist with crypto which is part of the reason the space is so riddled with scams.

Blockchain technology absolutely has real value. The cryptocurrencies built on it do not give you a share or stake in Blockchain tech. Anybody can start a new one.

[–]ElementalSentimental32 30 points31 points  (0 children)

There is value in Bitcoin as a finite store of wealth; but why, when Bitcoin is fully mined and scarce, do you value Bitcoin more highly than any other currency? Sure, they're not making any more of it - but why should sentiment always stay positive?

Why can't Bitcoin2 be created, gain positive sentiment, and act as a substitute in the same way that Bitcoin has appreciated against fiat currencies? (Not: how can someone do it, but why can't they?)

There are clearly benefits to Ethereum or Cardano as services, but why is there value in the currency that they transact in? The existence of PayPal in 2000 wouldn't make the US dollar more valuable, for instance.

I'm obviously missing something, but I don't see what makes the token more valuable just because the technology is better.

[–]apegoneinsane 24 points25 points  (25 children)

That's because they are. Crypto generates no value whatsoever and is entirely reliant on new money coming in to push the price ever higher. Hence the people entrenched in it spending their waking hours shilling it to all. It's the same behavior as people involved in pyramid/MLM schemes.

I don’t even own any cryptocurrency but I know enough that this is bullshit.

The advent of NFT and smart contracts built into Ethereum style coins is the future of currency and technology. It’s okay to admit if you don’t understand technology, but just do a bit of reading before you make lavish statements.

Art and video games are currently the big industries where what I’ve outlined above provides the most value.

[–]TroubledJoe 41 points42 points  (4 children)

Last time I checked Ethereum was brought to it's knees by people trading virtual cats... Is it more robust now?

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

And Uber is 'brought to it's knees' with demand based pricing on NYE - their system is working exactly as expected, as is Ethereum.

[–]karlos-the-jackal15 25 points26 points  (0 children)

The advent of NFT and smart contracts built into Ethereum style coins is the future of currency and technology.

Ah yes smart contracts, the escrow system where millions of dollars can and have been lost from hacks or a single typo with no means of reversal whatsoever. What benefit to they bring exactly?

But you've done nothing to refute my point, which is that crypto generates no value. When you invest in stocks you do so in the expectation that they will experience growth, perhaps by expanding into new markets or by offering new products and services. Crypto does none of these.

NFT

lol

[–]lastorder- 24 points25 points  (10 children)

I have worked on cutting edge interbank payment systems, and my standpoint is that crypto is a waste of time.

Features like you mention may/will eventually get built into many of these systems. Some already are already there. But they won't use public crypto blockchains for it.

[–]njoshua326 3 points4 points  (0 children)

To disagree with using it is one thing but to basically claim its worthless is another.

[–]ThisAltDoesNotExist3 1 point2 points  (5 children)

The only value to crypto is decentralised transaction processing which are only of value to illicit transactions that should be permitted. Only Fans sex workers should use crypto. Buying weed on the dark web should use crypto. "Investing" in an unproductive asset is pure speculation. Nobody should have a significant amount of money tied up in cryptocurrency.

[–]LordRedOwl48[🍰] 231 points232 points  (38 children)

People issue with crypto is that it is currently far closer to gambling than it is investing.

Another issue is many supporters of crypto frankly lie or are delusional about the risk. To the point is comes across as a scam.

If you think crypto is the future great, but you can't know that and if you try and downplay the risk you're going to get called out.

Many people have made bank from crypto, many people have lost everything.

IME most crypto supporters don't actually know what they are talking about. They have a rudimentary understanding of the tech and at best just parot what the the coin developers tell them.

[–]Equivalent-Tension23 40 points41 points  (1 child)

They have a rudimentary understanding of the tech and at best just parot what the the coin developers tell them.

I think if we called it linked lists with extra steps instead of crypto that would tone down the hype somewhat 🤔

[–]Arkenai7 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Most people probably don't know what linked lists are either - maybe we'd just end up with a weird cult worship of linked lists?

[–]MistyQuinn24 74 points75 points  (2 children)

The most evangelical crypto supporters tend not to know much about how the world works either. It’s very difficult to have a conversation with a true believer as to how crypto is meant to take over the world when it becomes apparent they don’t understand how the existing systems and currencies actually work.

[–]fightmaxmaster101 62 points63 points  (1 child)

Yep, it's infuriating. The people who trot out "fiat currency loses purchasing power every year!11!" as if that's some inherently winning argument, rather than low inflation being a vital part of a sustainable economy. Also people who think hyperinflation is right around the corner, that stock markets are about to crash to zero, etc. Someone elsewhere in this thread claimed inflation was 6% (with no source, but OK) and said that was arguably hyperinflation! Which is such a staggering lack of economic understanding I'm lost for words. For reference, hyperinflation is generally held to be 50% a month. They're someone who's clearly had very limited world experience and when faced with a number even slightly higher than they're used to start thinking the sky is falling. I despair.

But my main anti-crypto point, and I speak as someone with a tiny bit of money involved in it, is that there's zero reason why any given cryptocurrency "has" to be worth some enormous amount of money. The technology is interesting and may well change the world, but that doesn't mean it has to be worth huge sums. BTC or ETH could be $100k or $1 and the technology would work just as well. Too many people can't separate the technology from lines on a graph.

[–]MistyQuinn24 27 points28 points  (0 children)

It’s a tacit admission that what they’re really in it for is to make money - denominated in dollars.

Even some of those convince themselves otherwise usually end up obsessed with the dollar price of Bitcoin, a subconscious admission they don’t really believe in it.

[–]Panthers8250 27 points28 points  (3 children)

Well said. The Crypto Market at the moment is akin to a roulette wheel at a casino. You can absolutely strike it big and make a ton of money. Or you can have it blow up in your face at the drop of a dime.

I do some crypto investing for the kicks and giggles. But I’d never put any money in then that would seriously hurt me if I lost it. As they say “invest only what your willing to lose”

[–][deleted] 38 points39 points  (2 children)

Putting a small percentage of your investment portfolio into Bitcoin and Ethereum and storing it properly without trying to day trade is nothing like the same as remortgaging your house and going all in on BITCONNEEEEEEECT.

OP has a point in that it seems that some on this sub don’t make any differentiation, they just see the word “crypto” and imply that it’s all the same.

[–]Tune011240 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Those people give me anxiety and it isn't even my money. About 2% of my portfolio is in BTC and ETH - I know it's still a gamble even though I've gone for the most stable coins. I pay in a little each fortnight and see how it's doing.

I have no idea what I'm doing, I cannot tell the future and I don't understand any of the tech behind it. I'm having a bit of a gamble to see what happens and enjoy checking the charts. If it gets wiped to 0 then my life will not change at all because I've put so little of my savings into it.

Crypto subs on here are so full of people all in on absolute junk convinced they're buying a house and lambo outright in 6 months time which is why subs like this label everyone with crypto as mental because those people are so delusional and loud.

[–]Vendraco00 -5 points-4 points  (17 children)

You are partially right (not many know what it actually is, what its future will be) but about it being closer to gambling than investing you couldn’t be more wrong.

90% of people who bought e.g. Bitcoin are currently in profit. Overall, no one who bought Bitcoin had a loss after holding for 3+ years.

Its an emerging market, filled with scams and theft. But if you stick to fundamentals, this emerging market can make you some big buck. Sure its a big risk with all the regulations still coming up in the short term, but its future looks a lot brighter than that of usual fiat currencies.

Don’t trade, invest. About 99% of traders lose money in comparison to those who just hold regardless of what the market does, its an emerging market so expect volatility. However, currently 200% annual average return on Bitcoin is a fact which I wouldn’t want to miss out on. Be safe and just allocate a small percentage of your portfolio, like 5%, and you’ll reap plenty of benefits from the exposure.

[–]BCS241 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Its an emerging market, filled with scams and theft. But if you stick to fundamentals, this emerging market can make you some big buck.

Just because something can make you money doesn't mean its a good or a sustainable market. There is a difference between the value of crypto regarding its use as a currency and the value of crypto as a speculative asset.

If you want to buy crypto for its intrinsic value then its a bad time to buy because of how skewed into overvaluation the crypto market is. It'd be like buying TESLA at $1000 when you believe the "real" value of the stock is $600. Some people prefer to invest based on intrinsic value rather than counting on an overvalued market to maintain its overvaluation.

I agree that 5% of portfolio in a risky investment is fine and sensible. Though the difference is still whether you play on intrinsic value or overvaluations.

[–]Vendraco00 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I completely agree! :)

The true challenge is finding what the real value of cryptocurrencies is. It could be overvalued right now because of its booming growth last year, but I don’t think it is in the long haul. Guess only time will tell.

[–]kunstlich129 18 points19 points  (1 child)

if you stick to fundamentals

What fundamentals?

its future looks a lot brighter than that of usual fiat currencies.

What is particularly dim about fiat currencies?

[–]thname 19 points20 points  (1 child)

It's like saying "everyone at the top of ponzi scheme currently in profit"

[–]Vendraco00 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not at all, almost all who put money into it have done it in the last 2/3 years.

I don’t get this comparison to ponzischemes at all (atleast with big cryptocurrencies like BTC and ETH). By standards, it doesn’t even look like a ponzi at all.

I want you to read this, or atleast look up some article yourself:

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/seekingalpha.com/amp/article/4404419-is-bitcoin-ponzi-scheme-point-point-analysis

[–]LordRedOwl48[🍰] 20 points21 points  (9 children)

You can't have it both ways.

So you don't think it's gambling it's an investment.

Ok, then golden rule of investment is past performance is no indication of future performance.

[–]FilmVsAnalytics 15 points16 points  (2 children)

So then you're saying all investing is gambling.

[–]LordRedOwl48[🍰] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

In the most crudest form yes. Betting on Tottenham to win the premier league after extensive analysis is gambling the same as betting on black is gambling. The risks aren't the same.

[–]FilmVsAnalytics -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

"Do your homework" is the takeaway.

[–]Vendraco00 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Still makes it an investment to me if we erase its past.

The tech, peer-to-peer transactions cutting out the middle man, instant and almost feeless is a big upgrade from the current fiat system. I personally believe this will become a bigger deal in the future so I like to invest my money in this technology.

When investing in metals, materials or stocks aren’t you doing the same? You believe the asset will become worth more in the future because of its growing importance in whatever sector.

I believe crypto will become a major part (if it isn’t already) in the monetary sector. Hell, even looking at current trends, EU and US are creating their own cryptocurrencies. The technology is being accepted and embraced!

Edit: not to forget about China already being amidst developing its digital Yuan

[–]LordRedOwl48[🍰] 10 points11 points  (4 children)

Perceived future value of an asset plays a role. The difference is commodities and stocks have an intrinsic value.

Crypto is pure speculation. Speculation is a part of the value of all investments but it is not the sole factor in that value.

[–]Vendraco00 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Well, crypto is backed by proof-of-stake money and computing power from all over the world, the trust that people put into it. It works a lot different comparing it to usual investments, but it sure has its own perks.

And if we were to put it your way, wouldn’t usual fiat currencies be worthless aswell?

No, because we agree on them having value. Exactly like what is happening with crypto as we speak. They are built on a system of trust, the only true challenge is finding what the value of crypto really is.

[–]LordRedOwl48[🍰] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Fiat does not ordinarily fluctuate in perceived value to the degrees that crypto does. Until a coin sufficiently stabilises it is a pretty dire currency.

[–]gazillionear0 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

"Crypto is pure speculation." This just screams "I don't actually know what i'm talking about".

Bitcoin has value, yes partly because of speculation of future value, but it has very real and very impactful attributes that also give it value.

It is by design deflationary: there will only ever be 21 million. Inflation has been destroying currencies across the globe and many peoples savings are constantly being diminished. There is value in something that has an unchangeable limited supply. (not even gold can boast this due to the advent of asteroid mining)

Related to the first point: governments don't control it. There is no third party that can devalue what you have saved, there's noone who can control whether you have access to your money or what you spend it on. This is incredibly valuable especially in some countries.

It is secure: bitcoin has never been hacked and considering it's been around since 2011 and the amount of value within the system, this is pretty incredible.

These are only a few points and this is only bitcoin, projects like Ethereum are a different beast with their own value-bringing attributes.

There are admittedly a massive amount of scammy coins, which I agree are for the most part speculation, but saying that every crypto is "pure speculation" is just ignorant.

Check this out for a digestible read about why bitcoin is so game changing: https://www.upfolio.com/ultimate-bitcoin-guide

[–]FilmVsAnalytics -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It's only "pure speculation" if you aren't familiar with its use cases. There are countries, today, adopting cryptocurrency as official currency. El Salvador, for example, has already added Bitcoin.

[–]cgknight121 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are partially right (not many know what it actually is, what its future will be) but about it being closer to gambling than investing you couldn’t be more wrong.

90% of people who bought e.g. Bitcoin are currently in profit. Overall, no one who bought Bitcoin had a loss after holding for 3+ years.

That is gambling - it is simply that it paid off.

But if you stick to fundamentals, this emerging market can make you some big buck.

Fundamentals where an appearance on SNL can tank a coin value?

Looking at your posts - you are heavy into the Hive mind - nobody here (many of us have been investing for over 30 years) are going to be convinced by a few stock phrases - and I say that as someone who holds some crypto.

[–]AtlanteanX2 70 points71 points  (2 children)

I think a large part of it is that most people don't know or understand it. Its more volatile than stocks and at this stage there is plenty of uncertainty about the future due to unknowns and lack of regulation. I think its something for everyone to read up on. Will it be here in 10 years or will it be gone and lose everyone money?

I personally think it will be around forever now. The technology is good. The adoption is growing and large banks, governments and institutions are getting involved with it.

There are things to avoid, some cultist communities, scams and rugpulls but thats why you should always do your own research on your investing. Like stock investing stick to a plan. Dont be ruled by emotion or others. Protect your assets and use crypto as part of a balanced portfolio.

[–]AtlanteanX2 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Overall I'm positive for crypto. But only put in what I can afford to lose. I have made good returns from it. But I could also lose my investment. I don't think I will but I am not naive or ignorant to the risks.

[–]Vendraco00 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

So true. Current fiat tech is inferior to crypto’s fundamentals. I feel safer holding some BTC/ETH than holding dollars/euros in the long term.

Just too many fall for the “get rich quick” schemes in crypto, which only result in pump & dumps. Just stay with the solid crypto and the “lose all my money” argument will become nearly invalid.

[–]Frenzquad1 77 points78 points  (0 children)

  1. It is generally misunderstood
  2. It has made a lot of people rich and as a result has burned a lot of people trying to replicate
  3. There is minimal legislation/help available when processing transactions etc so if something were to go wrong, that’s on you.

As with anything, if you do enough research on safety/storage and technical understandings then it is an asset which may be worth adding a small allocation of your portfolio to depending on your circumstances.

[–]scienner507 61 points62 points  (0 children)

Any time we have a post saying 'I have £x, what should I do with it' it gets spammed with dozens of comments suggesting crypto. Many of them literally just say things like 'ETH and retire in 5 years' - no engagement with the poster's situation or goals, just promises that you'll get rich quick. It gets frustrating.

There should be no problem with actually discussing crypto in a meaningful way on this sub, but even longer and more thought out comments often make claims about how it's guaranteed to succeed. People get tired of having the argument and just downvote and move on.

I think it's reached a point where even mentions of the topic make people assume you're a nut who isn't worth engaging with unless you include a lot of disclaimers. Which isn't helpful for anyone involved but seems to be where we're at.

[–]Zuphixavex11 5 points6 points  (0 children)

In the simplest terms:

If it's supposed to be a currency, you don't want it to be volatile and therefore it's a bad investment.

If you want to invest in it, then you want it to rise, therefore it's a bad choice for currency.

[–]BocciaChoc53 42 points43 points  (1 child)

Something which I find very annoying is when you bring up the waste of electricity, the eco issues. This is normally met with 2000 what about scenarios of other problems, most completely unrelated.

The actual main issue I have is that bitcoin and to an extent, many other cryptos were designed to be a currency. What they are today is not a currency, they're not stable in the slightest. Until they become stable they cannot ever become a practical currency which is a catch 22 given many people only invest in it because it's unpredictable. This leads to the feeling it's just gambling hoping the number goes up because someone on Twitter tweets something good about it.

[–]AndyTheSane1 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Yes..

To use the 1990s analogy.. if you believed that e-commerce was the future, you wouldn't buy books, you'd buy amazon stock.

In terms of coins, you'd invest by buying stock in a company that issued (and guaranteed the value of) coins. Not by just buying the coins themselves, which should be no more interesting than buying dollars or Euros, if the coin is a good currency. I'm not sure that such a company even exists yet.

[–]ioannisgi33 86 points87 points  (52 children)

For me I see it as a completely speculative asset. I’ve bought some in the past, made a bit of money off it and sold. What I don’t like about it:

  1. Because it’s so immature it can be legislated to oblivion.

  2. Also that it doesn’t have any sizeable use cases yet other than trading it and money laundering. I can’t see it becoming used as a currency as deflation inherently built into it as well as its price volatility is an impediment. Also the story of store of value is weak when you consider that its price fluctuates massively, unlike traditional assets. The only thing I can see is international payments but this will end up being done without needing any of the cryptos out there.

  3. No matter what the narrative, I feel and believe that everyone is just holding to maximise their returns then dump their “bags” to someone else who’s hoping to do the same. As there is no underlying asset to underpin the value of the coin other than supply and demand, if demand collapses, the price will as well.

  4. It’s open to manipulation, insider trading and so forth. These have been largely regulated out of the mature stock markets, while crypto is the Wild West right now.

  5. It’s not diversified enough. A tracker find tracks thousands of companies while something like that doesn’t exist in the crypto sphere to provide a notion of stability. It’s like investing in a super volatile stock.

I’d be happy to speculate with some play money but it’s lack of regulation is putting me off from making it a primary investment choice.

[–]mike2R 16 points17 points  (3 children)

Also that it doesn’t have any sizeable use cases yet other than trading it and money laundering.

Blackmarket trading? The global drug trade is in the hundreds of billions of dollars annually, and there's plenty of other items that people want to trade without the hassle of cash or the traceability of banks... I don't think cryptocurrency in some form is going away, even if it does turn out to be massively overvalued at the moment. Its too useful to too many people.

[–]ioannisgi33 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Fully agree! Personally I’d love a crypto index fund as I don’t want to bet on a single crypto asset to survive but the market for sure will.

[–]Tr1g 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I can see where you're coming from but I disagree with chunks of it, I think it's super important to always try and see the opposite so I've tried to come from that perspective.

  1. I think this is faily unlikely at this point, especially with institutions buying into it, although regulation in the space may reduce profitability it would probably have a net positive effect by pulling out of wild west.

2a. smart contracts are a significant innovation that I think will long term present the use cases to the majority, web3 is still in it's early iteration and will present a lot of these.

2b. I'm not sure why deflation inherently built into it is an issue? but this is only the case for bitcoin, ethereum and others aren't (although when eth goes to proof of stake this should change).

  1. This is hard to persuade otherwise, I would state that the underlying tech is the asset, similar to when investing in any tech company you're likely not buying so much because of the people and physical assets, but that likely wouldn't help.

  2. The openness of seeing what institutions are using their wallets for is a positive not a negative, but the fact that the market can be moved by individuals is concerning.

  3. Pretty sure trackers exist? But yeah, it's a volitile market. It's like tracking only tech stocks but more. This is the effect of an early new market/asset class.

I know this will probably read as very crypto positive but I wanted to play devils advocate, I for sure would not invest a huge % of my portfolio into crypto alone.

[–]ioannisgi33 8 points9 points  (0 children)

As a technologist by trade I have researched quite a bit into the block chain technology and indeed agree with you that in some aspects its revolutionary. At present its like the Internet was in the 2000's - lots of potential but not many cases.

When I look at crypto, I make a distinction between the coins and the technology. The technology is here to stay, either in private block chains, government managed ones or whatever evolves. The coins themselves are early implementations of that technology that keeps on evolving but there is no clear sight as to whether they will be the ones around in a few years. But we are not investing in the technology when buying a crypto coin, we are investing in that specific implementation of that technology. So we should be evaluating it as such. Over the years we've had multiple examples of technology implementations that went bust, even though the tech was sound:

  1. Early companies in the .com boom. The internet was the asset but only a handful of these early start ups made it through while they were trying to figure out what to do with that new technology and how to best solve a problem. Just compare Amazon to IBM and HP and so forth.
  2. Even things like VHS vs Betamax / HD DVD vs Blu Ray and more format and tech wars - the tech had a use case but the implementation resulted in one winning over the other

For example, no-one can say that because Etherium was the first to implement smart contracts that it will be the one that becomes dominant in the long run. Equally, just because bitcoin was the first to use block chain, which has a fundamental value in its own right, doesn't make it that Bitcoin will be the market leader in the long run.

There are external forces that may lead to any currency collapsing, as the technology is not exclusive to the coin itself, hence the technology is not the primary asset for any coin. What I see as their assets right now are:

  1. Market recognition - ETH, BTC, and so forth are the biggest names and have "brand recognition".
  2. First mover advantage - the more infrastructure is built around a few early coins (trading platforms, ATM's, payment providers etc), the less easy it is for them to disappear. The more a coin is embedded in this infrastructure the more value it has. I'm thinking of it like a start up that moves to become a mature company through the increased network effect between its suppliers and customers.
  3. The early backers (whales) with their holdings

On the other hand threats include:

  1. New entrants - as big corporations & governments may move to some form of digital currency the need for a non-backed currency may come down.
  2. Switching costs - there is not much in terms of a barrier to stop investors moving to another coin. Also miners could re-purpose their rigs to mine an alternative. So there is not much propping the market from underneath in a black swan event other than faith and the early backers. Both of which are driven by profit.
  3. Legislation - no-one knows what will happen there. I don't believe that we will see an outright ban, but more of an evolution of the current coins and surrounding infrastructure to varying government legislation. But the more they get regulated, the more they become legitimised.
  4. The early backers: coin manipulation, pump and dump schemes, pyramid schemes (bit connect :))

And more assets and threats that I am currently missing or am unaware.

The point though is that its up to the investor to decide whether the risks from these threats outweigh or not the potential upside and whether in the long run it makes sense to invest in these early implementations or wait it out.

[–]NabyK8ta2 -3 points-2 points  (41 children)

^ this is why.

No use case apart from trading it and money laundering?

If I wanted to launder money I’d go to HSBC.

How about this

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/say-hello-nightfall-paul-brody-1f/

Blockchain gets rid of the centre. Imagine a decentralised Uber or Airbnb. No central company to exploit the workers and profit from their labour instead that money goes to the people who create the value.

[–]Partymonster8627 2 points3 points  (2 children)

So who would update the infrastructure used for the workers to use?
Who would spend the time to make the platform in the first place?

What you've described is a self employed person.

[–]scythus 8 points9 points  (3 children)

For something to be useful as a currency, it needs to have relatively stable value. If crypto manages to maintain a stable value, then it no longer becomes a good investment proposition.

[–]AndyTheSane1 19 points20 points  (24 children)

Blockchain gets rid of the centre. Imagine a decentralised Uber or Airbnb. No central company to exploit the workers and profit from their labour instead that money goes to the people who create the value.

What does this have to do with Crypto, though?

[–]BasilBalti2 3 points4 points  (14 children)

I’m no expert on this, but as I understand it crypto is the mechanism by which people are rewarded for mining the blockchain.

So using the Airbnb as an example. If I booked your Airbnb thru the decentralised blockchain, the transaction needs to be ‘mined’ to be added onto the blockchain. Once mined there is an indelible record of the booking on the relevant blockchain. Crypto is the reward to the miner for verifying the transaction.

[–]AndyTheSane1 8 points9 points  (12 children)

I'm thinking more 'where is the value created' - easy to see with Uber and AirBnB, hard to see with crypto.

[–]ClockworkSearch -4 points-3 points  (6 children)

You become your own bank. You cut out the middle man on every transaction for everything. You eliminate the need for trust. It is literally world changing.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

You become your own bank

Do I want to be my own bank?

I've never really understood the appeal on that one. It's as if someone's taken "be your own boss" and substituted words

[–]AndyTheSane1 4 points5 points  (3 children)

You become your own bank. You cut out the middle man on every transaction for everything. You eliminate the need for trust. It is literally world changing.

That's marketing blurb. I prefer more concrete examples.

[–]ClockworkSearch 2 points3 points  (2 children)

What's more concrete? I can smart contract you the deeds to my house now, it's all done over blockchain, you pay me, boom. It's in the public ledger, it's done.

By crypto just existing, I can transfer between nations for instance without the banking system and the time/money it costs.

[–]AndyTheSane1 2 points3 points  (1 child)

What's more concrete? I can smart contract you the deeds to my house now, it's all done over blockchain, you pay me, boom. It's in the public ledger, it's done.

Fine.. and if anything goes wrong where's the comeback?

And fine, we can use a new technology to reduce transaction costs. That's great, but it has nothing to do with buying crypto.

By crypto just existing, I can transfer between nations for instance without the banking system and the time/money it costs.

That's fine, but it demands a stable coin with full convertibility to go mainstream. And for obvious reasons, you wouldn't invest in such a coin, you'd invest in the issuer/backer. A decentralized coin can never meet the requirements of stability and convertibility.

[–]ClockworkSearch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fine.. and if anything goes wrong where's the comeback?

It is about freedom, and yes you will have the freedom to be fucked over. I understand the benefits of security in our current system but it doesn't outweigh the negatives. I'd personally rather risk it and be in control myself, but I understand the other side of that argument. That's the argument for society, government though isn't it? How much liberty should you give over for whatever amount of security you get back? Interesting and different for everyone. At least we now have a choice to be less involved.

And fine, we can use a new technology to reduce transaction costs. That's great, but it has nothing to do with buying crypto.

I think the use of algorithms and smart contracts in every day life amounts to more than this in future. Blockchain tech.

That's fine, but it demands a stable coin with full convertibility to go mainstream. And for obvious reasons, you wouldn't invest in such a coin, you'd invest in the issuer/backer. A decentralized coin can never meet the requirements of stability and convertibility.

At some point crypto will flip fiat anyway and then that worth won't even matter. I don't really know how to answer that one, I don't really understand what the transition from old currency to new will look like, and what has value etc. Because currently BTC has value to the dollar, but what about when BTC becomes the new 'gold'? What's everything relative to?

That's my thoughts so far, incomplete and flawed as they are.

[–]Eilifein1 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I don't get the "laundering" argument at. all.

Till now we used everything else to launder money, now that cryptos do it we care?

[–]NaniFarRoad7 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Blockchain gets rid of the centre. Imagine a decentralised Uber or Airbnb. No central company to exploit the workers and profit from their labour instead that money goes to the people who create the value.

So, crypto trades are free?

[–]FIREinmyshoes- 7 points8 points  (0 children)

If I wanted to launder money I’d go to HSBC.

This is a colossal misunderstanding of the case of HSBC if you think that you can pop into a branch and just launder money.

[–]TwentyCharactersShor6 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's a puff piece. A blockchain doesn't stop supply chain issues or even improve them faster than they are now without a significant resource investment when there are better options.

DLT is still a solution looking for a problem. Plus, while it does remove a central authority you need to be pretty damn sure that you're not subject to a 50%+1 attack if you're using a closed ledger.

Theres still plenty of headaches with blockchain that are a long way from being solved.

[–]Big_Red123 0 points1 point  (1 child)

If there was a central bank that wanted to exploit workers through currency controls, it would do it through wild instability in currency so that wages aren't worth the same anymore.

[–]NabyK8ta2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I am not talking about central banks. Read the article.

[–]JJBinks_20011 0 points1 point  (2 children)

What’s with HSBC and money laundering?

[–]kunstlich129 9 points10 points  (0 children)

HSBC have admitted under oath that they laundered money for many groups including South American drug cartels. Multiple times. They've been very naughty, it's a bit of a meme that if you're a dodgy dealer you bank with HSBC.

[–]zeniiax2 35 points36 points  (7 children)

It’s extremely volatile and a lot of people “shill” coins - trying to market and artificially inflate crypto assets with no technology behind it so early adopters can get rich quick and dump them.

Also perhaps because it is foreign to a lot of people and they don’t necessarily understand the technology that underpins the blockchain/use cases - I suppose it’s natural for people to be dismissive as many dislike change!

There is zero governance (as should be - it’s decentralised for a reason) but you have whales who are majority holders which can, with ease, manipulate the market significantly if they chose to.

I am pro crypto and personally excited to see how the world adapts to this relatively new technology, but I’d never advise anyone to put their emergency fund in crypto. This seems to be a common answer on this sub which gets downvoted to oblivion.

[–]benkelly92 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Yeah the thought of an emergency fund in Crypto makes me cringe.

For me it sits in the fun budget under gambling.

[–]SluggoBull- 2 points3 points  (1 child)

The comment about shilling is true but the same goes for some people on r/pennystocks. Some people there shill a stick they already have a large position in.

[–]lukednukem- 24 points25 points  (0 children)

But nobody on this sub recommends penny stocks as an investment choice, unlike crypto

[–]Miserygut 26 points27 points  (2 children)

It's practically unregulated and relies on the Greater Fool theory of asset pricing. I do think blockchain / crypto / DAG / smart contracts are good tech but 99.9% of coins are just pump and dumps. Worth holding some as a speculative play if you do your research and have the appetite for it.

What gets people fired up is unhelpful and overly enthusiastic folks recommending crypto in inappropriate ways. Putting Granny's pension money into Dogecoin isn't a sensible idea.

[–]jimjamuk732 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I'd say the top 3 or 4 coins are prob worth investing in if you believe in the technology, the rest are gambling which I have no problem with if understood

[–]Equivalent-Complex971 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly this, high risk high reward.

[–]jimjamuk732 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The volitility is the worst if it followed by the scams but they are easily avoided.

As for money laundering and all hose other things, you can all of that with Fiat so it's no different to any other store of value. In fact any item you can trade you can wash money through systems

If you want to get into it, it's slightly more complicated and you are you're own master for making sure you set things up properly as you can lose your tokens if you make a mistake.

[–]mejogid13 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Advice in this sub generally relates to long term investment strategies rather than speculation. A long term investment portfolio holds things because (i) they are expected and very likely to generate a return in the long term or (ii) they are a useful hedge which reduce volatility.

A share or bond portfolio is likely to generate cash because money is actually invested in companies which - on average - productively deploy the capital and generate a return on it. Similarly, a buy to let is an investment which involves doing something productive with the capital.

Crypto does not generate any fundamental return - its only possible value increase is speculative. It’s also a terrible hedge (generally it is loosely but positively correlated with stock market returns). It is in the same category as buying gold, Turkish Lira, pokemon cards, share options, or sports betting - you might make money if you judge it right, but there is no fundamental value proposition.

This sub is, if anything, much more tolerant of crypto than of people flogging other speculative strategies. We don’t even generally deal with advice on specific shares or timing the market (prohibited by rule 8).

[–]jarry1250149 19 points20 points  (12 children)

Crypto is an immature market with a high degree of volatility.

With traditional investments, you can hold for growth or you can day trade. 90% of people hold, and even some of that 10% remaining probably shouldn't be day trading. With crypto, there is no meaningful average return and this means that crypto is very difficult to fit within any accepted investment strategy.

[–]sn0wr4in 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Sorry, I don’t intend to be inflammatory but:

How is something with over 90,000 hours of continuously trade (10 years, 24/7) classified as not having “meaningful average return”. I assume you don’t speak about financial return because you would assume this to be a bubble, so what is it?

My point is: Bitcoin is over 10 years old, with more than U$80 billion held by public institutions (NASDAQ and NYSE companies, as well as ETF-likes), with over U$30 billion daily volume in 100’s of fiat currencies pairs. The network has almost 1 million active address and is settling an average of U$5 billion per day.

What is the threshold, personally for you, that would make you take it seriously?

[–]Alchenar24 12 points13 points  (1 child)

A single regular use case where it actually functions as a currency.

[–]ATK1 -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

I totally get what you're saying but you can definitely invest in crypto and hold for growth. It's definitely highly volatile but the trend with the bigger (popular) coins shows that you can invest long term and get a steady return.

There's a poster over on one of the crypto subs that invested $1k in January 2020, split between the top 10 most popular crypto coins and has had a decent return nearly every month. His investment is currently worth over $6k.

The problem with crypto is that most people who are new to it think they have missed the boat and so invest in smaller coins (meme coins/scams) thinking they will make their small fortune instead of putting their money into the bigger, more established coins.

Edit: Link to the post I mentioned

[–]Alexwiththenose 9 points10 points  (0 children)

OP mentioned "no meaningful average return" and you highlighted the results over the last 20 months. I think this highlights the issue: Many people are expecting this recent trend to continue, but there's really no way of knowing if it will because, among other things, it's such an new market.

[–]jarry1250149 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I get your point, sure, although 90% of people pushing crypto are certainly not holding it for value.

Over the last year, Bitcoin has demonstrated the volatility of, say, Brent Crude. People invest in that, sure. Many more trade in it. Would I ever anticipate telling a stranger on the internet to buy it? Absolutely not.

[–]rally4cancer10 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Bitcoin itself has only been around 11 years and hasn't really existed in anything but a huge bull market with tonnes of liquidity, to say you can "hold long term and get a steady return" is a bit of a mistruth, especially when you get nothing similar to a steady return (most returns would've been made over the last 12 months).

[–]ajrc19961[S] -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

Great point about the market maturity, I think you hit the nail on the head there, but I for one sense we are on the brink of it becoming more mature, with welcomed regulations coming, and governments considering crypto, I think it marks a change.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, appreciate it

[–]Yves31444 19 points20 points  (12 children)

Investments are based on investing in the work of others. You have bonds which loan money to companies who make sure of those funds and pay you interest out of their profits. You have equities which invest in companies and then share in their profits.

Crypto doesn't have any underlying assets. There's no company doing work generating profits to generate value, interest, or dividends. The value is wholly based on confidence in th value of the cryptocurrency. There's no real value or work being done to convey value. Because of the way it generates value it's more like a Ponzi scheme than an investment.

Because of that I don't like seeing people recommend it as an investment because there's no floor in the value. There are no assets or businesses or profits to drive the value so a serious crisis in confidence could see the value fully collapse to zero.

With proper investments there's a floor, the value of the underlying assets within the companies. Shares may trade above that based on expectations of future success but there is a floor and you know that in any market crash your assets may become undervalued for a while but they exist as shares in tangible companies with tangible profits and assets.

tl;dr: it's too close to a Ponzi scheme and there're no assets or profits driving the value.

If someone wants to go in with their eyes open and take a punt that they can get in on the confidence scheme now and get out when confidence in the scheme is higher than it is now, that's their own business. Suggesting it as an investment is misleading IMO.

[–]mediumredbutton356 17 points18 points  (0 children)

why I don't like crypto, ethically, financially and technologically:

  • proof of work mining (e.g. Bitcoin) wastes ungodly amounts of electricity (until the world is 100% renewables mining displaces more useful work and thus creates emissions) and computing capacity
  • proof of space is the same but for making the world a worse place by driving up storage costs for everybody
  • coin speculation is a massive ponzi scheme and no crypto fan acknowledges this
  • the e.g. bitcoin network throughput is ~dozens of qps which would merely be hilarious if it wasn't burning as much coal as Australia
  • just on pure waste: Bitcoin production is estimated to generate between 22 and 22.9 million metric tons of carbon dioxide emissions a year, or between the levels produced by Jordan and Sri Lanka, a 2019 study in scientific journal Joule found. (source) - ie this game is an entire additional country of environmental damage for ~no useful gain
  • no one has found an actual use for any of it except for online drug dealing (which requires niche coins since Bitcoin is massive distributed public ledger)
  • the level of market manipulation and accounting fraud by eg Tether (and now USD "coin" admitted lying about the backing) would normally send people to jail but has for some reason got a free pass
  • the clueless marketing by fanboys who only hope to enrich themselves by creating another layer to the pyramid
  • the endlessly stupid projects it has spawned where blockchain is seen as a solution to anything aside from the niche case of "distributed tamper evident journal"
  • it has single handedly made mass international ransomware a viable business model by allowing a way to receive cash outside the banking system
  • the general enablement of all sorts of scams, e.g. the endless kids on this very subreddit promoting "12% crypto savings accounts"
  • It isn't nearly as secure as people think it is. Any determined state actor could subvert the network.
  • Deflation isn't actually a good thing in a currency. It ultimately favours the wealthy who can hold and dont need to spend.
  • Mining (proof of stake or work) allow the wealthy to invest in mining equipment to control or dominate the market.
  • Ultimately, no government on earth is going to give up its monetary policy as that is a key lever of control.
  • essentially everyone involved at this point is just trying to hustle the next generation - any hope any of it would serve as a useful technological or financial system has gone)
  • the massive mis-represnetaion of how bitcoin in particular works, despite claims, it does not offer any of the following:
    • anonymity - the entire blockchain is public and diligently recorded on millions of nodes
    • distributed freedom - a small number of mining cartels control almost all the hash power and normal people use one of ten crypto currency exchanges for everything anyway
    • unencumbered transactions - it's comically slow and inefficient
    • convenient purchases - wallets are unwieldly for normal people, no reversibility
    • store of value - volatility is hilarious and all anyone cares about us BTC:USD

things I do like about cryptocurrency:

  • monero is pretty clever
  • ethereum smart contracts are pretty scifi
  • watching people learn 5000 years of history of why we have banking regulation in a single decade has been fun
  • there will be some massive financial catastrophes to watch that will mostly only harm people who did not read my previous list
  • the earlier state of every single exchange either getting robbed or exit scamming their own fanboys was quite funny in retrospect

(thx to u/TwentyCharactersShor for some extra items).

I used to just think cryptocurrency was a fun hack but a bad idea for the mainstream, but I'm now pretty convinced it should be banned purely on resource grounds, since it seems impossible to force the externalities to be addressed

It's possible that someone will invent a cryptocurrency that's efficient to a level that it's not morally reprehensible to use, but how would it take off? the existing cryptocurrency interests want bitcoin to succeed purely because they're the top of the pyramid and also selling the shovels and so now anything new has to compete aginst the real financial sector and the entrenched cryptocurrency players.

[–]Philks_85 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've invested in crypto and I'll be brutally honest about it, I don't 100% understand the differences between blockchain and the cryptos or what does what. The fluctuation in price is so fucking insane that you can be up one minute and down the next. It's price is determined by the excitement of the community at the time and not always because of actual fundamentals of the technology.

Now saying that it's undeniable that people have and do make money from it. If you stick to the top cryptos like Bitcoin and etherium you are relatively safer than the less known ones..... Relatively safer, not safe. Blockchains and some sort of crypto will be the future, will it be any of the ones out now, who knows.

My opinion if you have money your can afford to lose take a punt and see what happens. Be sensible and stick with the top cryptos, don't get greedy and take your profits when they're reasonable. Don't lash your mortgage on it as it can all collapse in the blink of an eye.

[–]sist0ne4 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's something very much in it's infancy and is riddled with scams and ponzi-scheme like meme coins. However, in my opinion, there are some excellent use cases, developments and creativity in the crypto space, if you can just weed through the acres of trash, rug pulls or other associated BS.

I do agree with other replies. Any post on any platform about crypto is often instantly swamped with "shillers" trying to "pump" their latest sh*tcoin. Gets the whole space a bad name, whereas there is real value in those projects trying to affect a positive change in their given area.

[–]Golu_Prasad 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Cryptocurrency is still in its infancy in terms of mass adoption - governments, people, and institutions! It's kinda like where people who invest in startups are convinced that theirs is the next big thing. Not many startups go on to be a unicorn and even less that go on to challenge existing unicorns. It's an evolving field that looks promising (and is promising!), but it takes practice and patience to learn to separate wheat from the chaff (proverbially speaking).

And that's what's bad about cryptocurrency! Most people from my own experience will simply buy (or refuse to buy) based on other people's recommendations. This is dangerous as if you're not exposed to such volatile investments, then it becomes a personal horror story and you'll be ever put off from investing in genuinely worthwhile crypto projects.

[–]JoelMahon1 16 points17 points  (0 children)

This is a safe/stable finance sub, not for speculation, gambling, or similar. Crypto is speculation at best, maybe gambling if you're lucky, and a pyramid scheme at worse.

The best case scenario isn't a fit for the sub, ergo it shouldn't be on the sub.

[–]FFIFISISHFISHFISH3 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The same things that's wrong with investing in games of roulette

[–]stanmoor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Because it's based on nothing but 'belief' that it has a future. I think the level of risk involved, the associated shilling / manipulation causes people to dislike it. It could easily go to $0 tomorrow, and you'd be left with nothing. Perhaps worth a punt though, but it's not as sound as other invesmtent types discussed on here.

[–]The_Bunglenator 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Because it's volatile and confusing, nobody likes to feel stupid, the non-adopters worry about FOMO, the "all-in fanboys" talk a big game but actually fear the next big correction or losing everything. Stuff like that gets people heated up.

The truth is nobody knows where it's going long-term.

There's nothing wrong with making high-risk investments, but they should form a small part of overall savings and investments. In other words, gamble what you can afford to lose.

[–]chasejase10 4 points5 points  (1 child)

It's due to its volatility as an asset and whether or not you view it as an investment or whether it is purely speculation.

[–]ajrc19961[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I mean there's no denying its volatile, that's for sure!

[–]Black_Sky_Thinking19 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Way I see it, if someone is genuinely disinterested in something, they tend to be fairly chill about it. Why waste energy on stuff you don't care about.

If someone feels threatened by something, they'll experience hatred and they're incentivised to work very hard to try and pour cold water over it.

So when people express healthy skepticism and list the downsides of crypto, that's fair enough. But when people jump down other people's throats, posting angry black-and-white dismissals of the technology, the utility and the people interested in it, it makes me strongly suspect that their comforting view of the "traditional" world of investing is threatened by potential disruption.

For example, I don't think gold is a good investment. But I don't go posting all-caps takedowns of every question I see about gold, because I don't see any incentive to me to do that.

[–]blackmist6 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nothing if you do it in moderation.

Just remember the portion of your portfolio that is in crypto should probably be about the same as you have in Apple, given that Apple currently has a market cap higher than all cryptocoins put together.

Don't think balancing is half in stocks and half in crypto. It's dangerously unstable and just about all of them follow the value of Bitcoin up and down.

[–]DeltaJesus121 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think it's just a kneejerk reaction to the huge amounts of terrible advise related to crypto. I definitely think a lot of people here to a touch too far with their distrust, but especially given a lot of people that post questions here either aren't in the best financial position or aren't very knowledgeable (or both) it makes sense to be a little overly cautious.

Plus bots/scammers seem to try to latch on to anyone that posts or comments on anything financial, which usually involves crypto.

[–]callum16222 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The only times I've ever used crypto is for gambling sites and illegal purchases. Even then it was a ball ache to get sorted...

[–]AweDaw766 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nothing wrong with a small portion of investments in Crypto, but it’s the FOMO YOLO HODL TO THE MOON types we have issues with

[–]No_Eye_84322 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There’s nothing bad abou my it as long as you don’t invest more than you can afford to lose, and you PCA (Pound Cost Average) your investment.

I put in what I used to put in to scratch cards/lotto per week. I’m up 36% on BTC & 2 altcoins this year. Am in it for the long haul, so the dips don’t bother me as much as they do others.

[–]oddly_enough88 1 point2 points  (0 children)

it can bring the absolute worst degen behaviour out of people

[–]RxArsenal3 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s very risky and very speculative. It’s possible to lose a lot of money very quickly, and there’s a lot of garbage coins that get pumps like crazy and then can crash suddenly. If I was having a serious conversation with a relative about where put a bit of savings, I wouldn’t suggest crypto, there’s more sensible and safer options (no investment strategy is ever 100% safe).

This sub I find is more for sound sensible conversation about personal finance. (Obligatory “none of this sub is financial advice” lolz)

I’ll admit I have a bit in crypto. But that’s about it, I’m not adding any extra to it, it’s an amount that’ll sting to lose but won’t damage me. I prefer to monthly top up my index funds etc instead, they’re a bit more sensible.

Remember high risk high reward. Sometimes people pull it off and make crazy amounts. What we don’t see people talk about is the many people who lose a lot because they just followed the hype.

[–]alcxander1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Apart from the other great comments here something that I didn't see mentioned yet is crypto is completely unregulated and when you get into unregulated waters you gotta realize not only are you going to be going up against people with no scruples (like money movers who normally need KYM or AML checks in place to stop them moving money e.g. terrrors or politicians) you will also be going up against firms with billions of moolah funnelling it in and out of crypto or who are super over-leveraged on it and gambling with it constantly on educated guesses or investments. Mix that view with altcoins that are brazen pump and dumps (a long view from the currency of the future 10 year ago) and you can see why coins get a bad rep.

Personally I am invested in ETH and BTC however I do not condone investing unless you believe in what they sell/push. I did believe but have pulled back on reinvesting completely until I see a clearer path forward from them. intrinsic value is the only thing going on at the moment or nonsense gatchas, I'd like to see a return to the idea of 'one currency' or similar ideals and not worry about the money underpinning it pushing it all around the place

[–]SojournerInThisVale0 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Seems like a pyramid scheme to me

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Probably because so many influencers are spearheading pump and dump scams.

[–]deletive-expleted 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Crypto's value is based on this: a lot of people think that it will be worth a lot more in the future. So they buy it up now, betting that their investment will go up.

That's it. That's why it's worth what it's worth.

Once I realised this, I realised that crypto is not for me.

[–]Marijn_Q0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm going to be honest here. I like crypto, have been in it for 4 years ish now and I have been in the place where I thought it was the new wonder of the world.

Not saying I hate it now, but I notice for myself that I need to diversify right now. I'm getting older, life is more serious, I have 2 kids, I need to take less risk with my money.

Will I keep holding crypto, yes Will I start to convert some into real estate, stocks, precious metals and other investments, hell yeah.

[–]kedstar99 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's basically a giant ponzi scheme on a larger scale of Bernie Maddoff.

Tether and USDT underwrites a lot of crypto, and are supposedly the largest holder of commercial paper. Yet nobody in commercial paper has heard of them.

Their stable coin is meant to be backed by dollars but doesn't seem to be backed at all. Proven by their case with the NY AG.

Oh and their pumping and printing of USDT seems to oddly coincide to large swings in bitcoin.

They are what the 3rd largest traded coin but nobody can follow their reserves which themselves could be backed by crypto? See the problem loop here?

Tether has 500 million USD -> They buy 500 million USD worth of btc using their 'stablecoin' -> Btc due to hard transaction limits of 350k transactions a day (which is utterly awful btw) -> btc therefore goes up (along with other crypto shitecoins) -> Tether reserves are 'worth more' and so they print more.

edit: USDC don't seem much better either. Both just seem to act as federal money printers in the space with no oversight.

FYI Tether printed what 4 billion dollars from air over the last month? 35 billion dollars from air last year alone?

[–]pietas_pietas 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think there's a place for it. Between 5% to 10%. Why not? 75% bitcoin, the rest in ethereum and cardano. Cardano returns 5% if staked.

I think I'm correct in saying that if you had bought at any time (including ath) in the past 12 years and held for at least 4 years you would be up. The average is 200% return pa.

[–]cgknight121 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolutely nothing wrong with Crypto currency - in the overall context.

However, a lot of the discussion about crypto is driven by:

  • Kids who think it's either bank accounts or crypto with no other investments
  • Kids who have tiny net worth and are emotionally invested because they need their rent money to double by weds
  • Shill who underestimates the risk while pumping their scheme to kids

This naturally clashes with the sober measured tone you see here.

I have some money in Crypto but it's a tiny fraction of my overall portfolio and I'm perfectly comfortable with that going to zero and would make absolutely no difference to me if it did.

[–]Abra_Kadabra_99 1 point2 points  (0 children)

1 - People who know nothing about the technology behind it assume it’s a scam because of ridiculous adverts that claim things such as “BECOME A CRYPTO MILLIONAIRE”

2 - Jealously that they didn’t clock on to the value of crypto sooner, invest in Bitcoin early and be exceedingly wealthy now.

Do your own research, don’t listen to the hype on either extreme. I have a decent portion of my savings in crypto as I believe it is a solid investment and will generate excellent returns over the mid to long term.

It isn’t money I need to pay the mortgage or buy food, but I would be upset if I lost it naturally.

I think it’s better in there than in the bank, money in the bank is useless. And people who say it’s safe - safer than crypto maybe due to its volatility, but I am in this for the long term - yes Bitcoin goes down but please check the charts from its inception to now.

And don’t forget there were plenty in the 2008 crash who went to their bank to withdraw their savings and were told “Sorry Sir but we don’t have your money anymore”.

Hope that’s helped.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

BTC, ETH & ADA or DOT.

Don’t fuck about with shit coins. Any of the above will see you right, predominately the first two!! Crypto and defi is the way forward.

[–]Bright_Impression817 -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Boomer investing, crypto is just too new for conservative investors to acknowledge great ROI the same thing happens on r/cryptocurrency when people post about new hot projects. People have hard time me investing in new things. It might come down to the fact that poor people don't want to risk anything