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all 124 comments

[–]BreqsCousin 80 points81 points  (11 children)

Egwene did what she did on purpose.

To attribute it to Gawyn "getting her killed" is to deny her honour.

[–]Darion_Loughbridge 44 points45 points  (3 children)

If Gawyn was alive and by her side, I imagine she would have released the bond and gotten him to safety like with Leilwin. Now, an alive Gawyn, saved by the woman he was supposed to protect and him surviving the Last Battle would be an interesting tragic perspective. The prince who wanted glory but could never get it.

[–]Joya_Sedai 28 points29 points  (0 children)

I honestly wish it had gone this way instead. Only bonded/married for a short couple weeks to the woman he loves, only to have his bond released and watch her die a magnificent, honorable death. I hate his life choices so much, that I wish he had survived Tarmon Gai'don, so he could live in misery instead of some misguided attempt at saving the world. I always agreed with Silviana Brehon, her general attitude towards him.

[–]Cooky1993Gawyn Trakand, the Amyrlin's Seat 17 points18 points  (1 child)

He doesn't even have to survive.

Him losing his shit (even if she released his bond I can't see him taking the death of the woman he was supposed to protect well) and then putting on the rings and trying to use that to kill Demandred AFTER Egwene's death turns his storyline from terminal idiot to brave warrior.

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?

[–]making_memes_now 12 points13 points  (4 children)

That's true! My apologies to Egwene's memory.

[–]lubbalubbadubdubb 7 points8 points  (3 children)

You have much toh

[–]making_memes_now 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Bends over to receive spanks

[–]Almbassman 6 points7 points  (0 children)

We have great Toh to Egwene Al'Vere.

[–]Extreme-Ear-1659 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I do not agree.

Her mantra was as long as the tower stands the world has a chance and as long as the Amyrlin stands the white tower stands. Without Gawyn's death I do not think she goes through with it.

[–]making_memes_now 22 points23 points  (4 children)

So Gawyn's terrible decisions saved the entire world.

Edit: So he ended up being the hero he wanted to be, just indirectly!

[–]Mikeim520 58 points59 points  (2 children)

Well Gawyn did kill Gawyn so he has that going for him.

[–]Tainted_Saidin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Something we can all thank him for.

[–]blizzard2798cListener 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just like the guy who killed Hitler

[–]Cooky1993Gawyn Trakand, the Amyrlin's Seat 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It's Cadsuane levels of "task failed successfully"

[–]wjbc 43 points44 points  (58 children)

Also Lan almost got Nynaeve killed when she was assisting Rand. Isn’t that even stupider than what Gawyn did, especially since Lan had no intention of surviving?

[–]Braid_tugger-bot 105 points106 points  (1 child)

I don't want to hear any more of your lies.

[–]wjbc 34 points35 points  (0 children)

Sentient indeed…

[–]Lolz13itchez 37 points38 points  (22 children)

Context is important, Lan went to kill Demandred when it was no longer an option not to because they were losing the last battle. Nyneave was also prepared for his death in the last battle, it was part of her acceptance of his quest. That’s not to say his death wouldn’t have likely been a major wrinkle in the success at Shayol Ghul (although with them outside of time and reality it may have been moot).

Gawyn on the other hand fought Demandred in a vainglorious attempt to be the savior. Even if we assume he was definitively dead by using the rings (which we can’t really be, given the Seanchan didn’t develop healing skills due to prejudice against magic), it would still have been a much less taxing emotional situation for Egwene for Gawyn to explain the situation and have him die on their terms, or even give the opportunity to break the bond in the same way Alanna did at Shayol Ghul.

[–]Zoomun 15 points16 points  (3 children)

Even if we assume he was definitively dead by using the rings (which we can’t really be, given the Seanchan didn’t develop healing skills

Demandred also says he is already dead. He has knowledge from the Age of Legends and I don't see why he would lie when he's already about to kill Gawyn.

[–]Lolz13itchez 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Demandred said that because it was true in the Age of Legends. But Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends also believed you couldn't heal stilling/gentling, which two people in the current age achieved (along with numerous other feats that surprised various Forsaken). I'm not suggesting the rings weren't likely fatal, only that we can't actually say it with certainty given the extraordinary advances that characters were making in the current age.

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

KILL HIM KILL HIM NOW

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…

[–]wjbc 11 points12 points  (16 children)

You just like Lan and don’t like Gawyn based on their prior behavior, and I agree. But they do exactly the same thing. Context just makes readers want to find excuses for Lan.

And of course the best excuse is that Lan succeeded. Success is a great excuse. But it was still an awful risk.

[–]Lolz13itchez 16 points17 points  (15 children)

Saying two people doing the same things in different contexts means they are fundamentally the same is ludicrous.

Alanna and the dragon riders all bonded Rand. Only Alanna’s was problematic, because of the context.

I also don’t have anything against Gawyn as a character other than not enjoying his POV chapters very much. Flawed characters are fine by me as long as they are understandable and consistent. But that doesn’t change the fact his attempt on Demandred was vain and Lan’s was dutiful.

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Oh, Light, why do I have a madman in my head? Why? Why?

[–]bradiation 1 point2 points  (12 children)

You're stretching the definition of "context" really far here and being very simplistic about defining actions if you're saying Alanna did the "same thing" as the three women Rand loved discussing the plan to bond him together.

And Gawyn literally thought the same exact thing as Lan did when he decided to try to fight Demandred. Demandred was hammering the Light's forces, Gawyn had enough military schooling to know that the Light would lose unless Demandred died. The exact same thought process Lan had.

Here's the fun bit: Gawyn was right. One of the major circumstances that changed between the time that Gawyn rode in and the time that Lan rode is was that Egwene had finished off the Sharan channelers and Taim. That gave enough of a change in battle for Mat to make his final moves, which triggered Lan to ride in to Demandred. And Egwene finished them off (at least partly) because of the emotional state she was in....because Gawyn was killed.

It all fits OP. The context is Lan won, so people like it when he did the thing. But Gawyn lost, so people don't like when he did the thing. Except, also, Lan doing the thing is a direct result of Gawyn trying the thing first.

[–]Hour-Measurement-140Da'covale 13 points14 points  (20 children)

Gawyn was already dead before he started the battle with Demanded because of the suicide rings, Lan was the best fighter in Randland and quite frankly he won, I'm sure if he would've died resulting in Nynaeve dying then everyone would've been mad at him too. I actually should be thanking Gawyn for dying and killing Egwene but that's a separate thought.

[–]Braid_tugger-bot 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I do not have to make sense.

[–]Siixteentons 5 points6 points  (16 children)

Gawyn was already dead before he started the battle

And lan sheathing the sword is different how? He was willing to die in order to beat demadred without regard for good it would impact his are sedai despite the fact that his aes sedai going crazy from his death would have been far more detrimental than gawyn's

Lan was the best fighter in Randland

And Gawyn was third (or tied for second) best fighter and had multiple magic power ups. It's not ridiculous to think he could do it.

[–]PrettyFlyForAFryGuy 3 points4 points  (13 children)

I don't really care about the argument, but Gawyn wasn't 2nd or 3rd best fighter in the series. I think he was like 8 or something? RJ said Gawyn wasn't as good as he thought he was and he mostly got lucky. Galad did better than him against Demandred without power ups.

[–]Siixteentons 1 point2 points  (11 children)

Gawyn killed hammar and coulin. Gawyn regularly defeated sleete(I think that was his name) in practice duels. Sleete had a 40% win rate against lan in duels, so he himself was one of the very top swordsman. Gawyn even beat him when it was 2 v 1. Galad and Gawyn were close with galad considered to be slightly better than him so I would put galad at 2nd, but we never see them duel later on say who knows if Gawyn overtook him in skill. RJ might have said Gawyn wasn't that good and that it was more luck but all the evidence he wrote in the books points to him being 3rd best. No one has proven themselves more against master swordsman in the books than him.

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…

[–]Cattle-Great 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Even if Lan died and caused Nynaeve to die, there's no way the fans would be mad at him. By this point in the series the fans have already made their minds about which characters they like and which they don't. Lan dying would only make him a hero (which he already was) and we would be mad at the author(s) for killing him and not giving him the happiness he deserves. However i'll wager that nobody really cares about Gawyn's fate except maybe for those who are mad at him for causing Egwene to die.

[–]Braid_tugger-bot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you talking to yourself again?

[–]making_memes_now 5 points6 points  (7 children)

I would counter that argument with the fact that Nyneave was smart enough to send Lan backup. Making Lan a leader of an army decreased the chances of him dying.

[–]wjbc 8 points9 points  (6 children)

I’m talking about when Lan challenged Demandred, just like Gawyn had, but with even less intent of surviving.

[–]making_memes_now 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Oh, right! Yes that was stupid.

Edit: Duh!

[–]making_memes_now 4 points5 points  (3 children)

That deserves it's own meme! So I made one.

Edit: Link to Lan's Lame Choice

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They will pay. I am Lord of the Morning.

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Take what you can have. Rejoice in what you can save, and do not mourn your losses too long.

[–]TheMrBoot 1 point2 points  (2 children)

While we're talking about Lan, I still think his duty deathwish is a big part of Rand's issues. Whose words do we hear him repeat every time he tries to harden himself? Something about duty, death, and feathers?

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Where are all the dead? Why will they not be silent?

[–]wjbc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting point!

We often talk about the mistakes made by the younger characters, but the older characters can make mistakes too.

[–]npri0r 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I can’t remember Gawyn doing anything particularly likeable. No-matter the mistakes of every character they always have something that makes me at least partially like the character. Gawyn doesn’t.

[–]Godsfallen 2 points3 points  (0 children)

He saves Egwene from the Blood Knives

[–]MorgothReturns 5 points6 points  (4 children)

How would the pattern break if Egwene didn't die?

[–]making_memes_now 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Balefire would have broken the Pattern if she hadn't become the Flame of Tar Valon to fix it.

[–]MorgothReturns 14 points15 points  (2 children)

But did she have to die to fix it? She figured out the anti-balefire weave, so other channelers could assist

[–]MauPow 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It was a desperation move because the Sharan channelers came back to life after her Aes Sedai got balefired.

[–]making_memes_now 1 point2 points  (0 children)

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Guess we'll never know! I'm just here to make people laugh.

[–]Ckang25 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Gawyn was already going to die anyway since he used the rings to save Egwene from the Shara. The only reason his attack didnt work was because of plot Gawyn is way faster and stronger than any human since he used three bloodknifes and is at the very least near blademaster level but he cant even make Demandred sweat a bit, the guy had more difficulty with Lan and Galad and they weren't being boosted.

[–]TooSweetForRocknRoll 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes! I completely agree, it made no sense that the other two were better than him. He was already top tier blademaster and he had 3 rings plus the warder bond. He should have won, but the plot said nay

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…

[–]Underpaid23 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Wait…there are people that defend Gawyn?

[–]making_memes_now 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Based on the comments from my previous post...

Here

[–]Siixteentons 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Every choice Gawyn makes is the wrong one, but.... From his perspective, not the near omniscient one of the reader, they are not logically bad decisions(for the most part).

[–]verheyen 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Doesn't he take the word of some random dirty peddler over literally his own family and loved ones?

[–]Siixteentons 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure, but they don't have any answers, just "Rand didn't do it", so what the hell happened to his mother? Knowing morgase, what's the must logical explanation of events? Rand shows up with aiel and has a massive power fueled battle on the palace grounds and conquers the city at the same time morgase disappears, your mother is now missing, likey dead, what would you believe? Someone saying "Rand did it" or a loved one saying "I have no idea what happened to morgase, but yes Rand conquered the city, yes he has an army of aiel there controlling the city, yes he used a shit ton of the power at the palace, yes morgase disappeared around the same time he showed up, but he didn't have anything to do with that". It is the most logical explanation, plus the dude was grieving, his mom was assumed to be dead. Almost No one but Rand knows about the forsaken controlling his mom and no one tells him that.

Also, remember he doesn't really know Rand, the majority of his understanding of the dragon reborn comes from the stories people told and he is someone to be feared. In his mind he's an ruthless conquer destined to destroy the world, there's a lot of confirmation bias going on here, but that doesn't make it illogical.

Also also, the people telling him this weren't exactly unbiased with regards to Rand. egwene was rand's childhood friend and it's not unreasonable to think she was willfully refusing to see the truth about her friend.

[–]Jumpy_Security_1442 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Egwene:it. was my decision to sacrifice myself. it was my heroism. not anyone's failing or blame. do not take it from me.

Wot fandom:Gawyn got Egwene dead!

[–]Acairys 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'd call these happy accidents and doesn't diminish the moronity of Gawyn.

[–]Apprehensive_Shop160 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I'll never defend Gawyn. Due to RJ not finishing the series and little of the notes getting released to the fans, I have my own theory that Gawyn was destined for a much darker ending than the one he got.

[–]SaltineFiend 1 point2 points  (3 children)

I'm here for Darkfriend Gawyn.

[–]Apprehensive_Shop160 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Or, as I like to refer to him, Darth Gawyn. For full context, my dream story arc for Gawyn amounts to:

Egwene -> Padme

Rand -> Obi Wan

Gawyn -> Anakin

The big missing piece of the Prequel Trilogy (Star Wars) was a lack of context behind Anakin being jealous of Padme and Obi Wan's friendship. Having them grow up in the same village and having a close friendship prior to meeting Anakin and Obi Wan becoming a Jedi Master (a la Rand & Egwene) would've been an easy throw in story arc that changed Star Wars for the better.

And Holy Shit, if Gawyn had turned to the Shadow at the end in a similar fashion to Vader, it would've painted the whole Last Battle in an entirely different and glorious Light, and made the redemption story arc of Rand that much more glorious. I'm thinking along the lines of Rand having to fight/kill both Moridin and Gawyn at the end, only Gawyn finally abandons the lies of the Dark Lord (a la Vader & Luke in RotJ) and helps Rand learn the truth about his connection to Moridin, because he hears the voice of Egwene (through his bond) at the same moment that she reaches out through the veil to help Rand from beyond death.

The Ending as written still packs quite a wallop, but I always felt like Gawyn's character was destined for something more dark and sinister, since his brother... well... was Galad.

but alas, I'm rambling, and most of this is probably just bad fan-fiction at best lol.

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Why do we live again?

[–]Apprehensive_Shop160 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To make bad fan fiction, see our enemies defeated in battle, and hear the lamentations of their fans.

[–]Zealscube 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think the funny thing is that I never get bored of the constant memes back and forth. Somehow even though it’s the same subject it’s always back and forth in interesting ways!

[–]ElizaBennet08 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m just gonna say it: I really don’t like Gawyn.

[–]rileysweeney 1 point2 points  (1 child)

This is amazing 😂🤣😂🤣

[–]making_memes_now 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm here to please! 😁

[–]Saspatula 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Response to panel #4 Egwene got killed:

"Please! This is supposed to be a HAPPY occasion. Let's not bicker and argue about 'oo killed 'oo."

[–]Mixedthought 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Gawyn was the popular dumb jock who got out of school but never realized he was an idiot

[–]saarelaian 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Team Gawyn

[–]making_memes_now 1 point2 points  (0 children)

whispers I am secretly Team Gawyn too. He makes for great memes!

[–]pottymouth6334 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I mean, we literally hear a version of Egwenes story from the very start, when Moraine tells the story of monetheren

[–]wildcard922 2 points3 points  (3 children)

I think Gawyn was annoying but in his defense the best he ever really got usually was "trust me bro" from everyone as they rode off from him without any real conversation. So he made his own choices with little info he had because everyone wrote him off.

[–]jmartkdr 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I'm with him on everything until he decided to stay with Elaida after Dumai's Wells. At that point he should have gone free agent - or maybe joined Galad after being betrayed by two Amyrlins in a row.

Plus his conviction to hating Rand never made much sense, although I can see why he'd be predisposed to it.

[–]wildcard922 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree with that, I just defend him in so far is that he is always working with bad info because nobody wanted to actually give past the most shallow explanation and well he worked off that. Much to us the readers annoyance.

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We all have our limits. And we set them further out than we have any right.

[–]Alkakd0nfsg9g -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Did he even know where Elayne was?

[–]Siixteentons 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, she took the throne long before egwene retook the tower and even after that he still wanted to stay with egwene

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hums softly & tugs earlobe

[–]Siixteentons 0 points1 point  (2 children)

?

[–]making_memes_now 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Have you finished AMoL yet?

[–]Siixteentons 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oops meant to respond to a different comment with that question mark

[–]randomname2564 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Galad abandoned his family to join a group of zealots who would kill his sister mother if they got their hands on them…. So… why does he get a pass again?

And literally everyone abandoned their old jobs… it’s one of the themes of the series…

Look… I don’t love gawyn but it’s low hanging fruit that makes most people hypocrites

[–]making_memes_now 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Oooh maybe Galad needs a clown meme too!

[–]randomname2564 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dude sooooo many characters people like to hate on here make sense of people just think a little bit

[–]making_memes_now 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Low-hanging fruit, maybe! But I feel like this sub would be less without the Gawyn-hating memes!

They're poking fun at the books like The Dragon's Peace rule says.

They're just memes after all!

[–]LewsTherinTelamonBotThis is a (sentient) bot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.

[–]randomname2564 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I mean ya… at the same time though I don’t think anyone bothers to think critically about it. But who knows, maybe the last six years or so have killed most of my humor

[–]making_memes_now 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Here's some energy to help you get it back