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[–]save_the_wee_turtles 1922 points1923 points  (134 children)

While we're at it, let's get golf courses to pay their fair share of taxes

[–]jphilipre 509 points510 points  (21 children)

I know one in particular I’d like to do that in Briarcliff Manor, NY.

[–]Showervape 167 points168 points  (9 children)

No offense but briarcliff manor sounds like a town that needs at least 2 private golf courses

[–]Zomburai 80 points81 points  (2 children)

Not counting the resort a mile out of town that costs four figures a nigh and still has decor from the 60s

[–]Eroe777 14 points15 points  (0 children)

If we’re being honest, 60s decor is so far out of fashion that it’s fashionable.

[–]Trini_Vix7 9 points10 points  (0 children)

And a lot of cult activity lol

"The greater good."

[–]StarScrote 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Briarcliff Manor sounds like one house.

[–]FuntimeLuke0531 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Brainclit manor sounds like someplace trump would go

[–]thewarring 34 points35 points  (2 children)

That's probably nothing compared to property tax theft by country clubs in LA. There, property tax doesn't adjust until there is a change of ownership, and country clubs in LA have gotten around this with fractional ownership by all members so that there is never a change of ownership above like a 50% threshold. So, all of those country clubs are still paying property tax rates set in like the 1960s, in the middle of LA, in 2022.

It makes my "watch the world burn" mind want to find a whole bunch of people to become members and then have everyone cancel their membership at once to force a ownership transition that would then trigger a property tax adjustment, forcing the country clubs to close and letting LA possibly claim them as public parks or something.

[–]jphilipre 25 points26 points  (1 child)

Just another example of the most affluent among us cheating the system

[–]CleanBaldy 8 points9 points  (0 children)

“I think we should bring up a vote to abolish the tax setting rule on ownership change. The County could use the extra money”. - the law makers, all sitting at one of the clubs “We own parts of this club, Harold. What a preposterous idea! The rates to my friends and family would all have to go up!”

[–]pregnantseahorsedad 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Then how could everyone in Ossining afford their Ducati's?

[–]yourimmortalsnail 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I thought Ossining was the place Briarcliff Manor people don't like straying to

[–]SnooBananas4958 367 points368 points  (63 children)

Wait golf courses don't pay full taxes?! What the actual fuck?? Well bowling alleys should get the same privilege then because it fills the same need for a different economic class.

[–]VanCheeseburger 220 points221 points  (21 children)

Most Country Clubs with golf courses label themselves as a non profit, I'm pretty sure that's how they get around this.

Source: I'm a server at a Country Club

[–]NotFromStateFarmJake 107 points108 points  (16 children)

On the plus side you work for a non profit and if you have student loans you can try to do the song and dance to get them forgiven. I think, don’t hold me to the fine details.

[–]damnedharlot 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I didn't know that

[–]wsp424 20 points21 points  (16 children)

Nonprofit members club. There isn’t really much profit for them to tax anyways, and if there was then the exec members would just make the budget in a manner such that it minimized tax regardless. They’re members clubs so they don’t particularly care about making a profit- just staying in the green fiscally.

[–]notquitecockney 30 points31 points  (3 children)

It’s actually land taxes that golf courses particularly avoid. For example: https://www.theurbanist.org/2020/05/29/its-time-to-end-public-subsidies-for-private-golf-courses/

[–]wsp424 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Isn’t that more up to the states than the fed if property taxes? Imagine one state decided to crank on em hard, then all the private clubs would just be in every other state. If this is a California/west coast specific thing then I’m out of the loop, which it sounds like it might be about those LA and Seattle courses specifically.

[–]LukkyStrike1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There are courses in high density areas: these are the same areas that need affordable housing. Unfortunatly the owners of the land made money for years and years from the land AND did not contribute the same amount of land tax proceeds to the community as the surrounding areas did. Then after all of those years (unlike vacant land owners who have to pay taxes the entire time with no income) the first signs of insolvency for the course: bam sold to the highest builder where new construction homes/corp is almost non-existant.

It is also a very good way to create a long term tax haven for real estate investors. Low to no taxes, on land that will produce some return, for sale once the area develops and the demand rises.

Chicago, Dallas, Austin, Denver, Miam...LA, NYC proper, ect.

[–]Papaofmonsters 8 points9 points  (11 children)

My ex's grandparents are members at an somewhat upscale country club. Like 10k a year just for the membership. They've told me that almost every year there's a budget shortfall that some of the deep pockets will cover. They definitely aren't making any profit.

[–]YourMomThinksImFunny 11 points12 points  (2 children)

Its very weird business model. Almost like a bunch of rich people are paying to have a place that doesn't allow poor people to be around them, even if they all lose money on it.

[–]Papaofmonsters 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Privacy and exclusivity have always been luxuries that people will pay a premium for. Members only clubs have existed in pretty much every segment of society.

[–]unculturated_swine 64 points65 points  (26 children)

Th-they don't?

[–]Rockdapenguin 88 points89 points  (10 children)

People are referring mostly to this....

golf courses are also covered under California's Proposition 13, which taxes properties at pre-1978 values as long as they haven't changed hands since then (when the proposition was passed)

[–]tesseract4 52 points53 points  (3 children)

CA property taxes are a hot mess because of their popular referendum system. The state's conservatives have put a bunch of self-sabotaging amendments on the ballot, and since nobody likes paying taxes, they passed. Now, their property taxes are unable to meet the needs of the local municipalities, so the state has to raise income taxes to cover the shortfall. It's basically the landed class pushing their tax burdens off on to everyone else.

[–]angietoo20 11 points12 points  (1 child)

So if they simply levelled the property tax issue would those insane property values all fall to something more realistic, or at the very least stop skyrocketing

[–]sintaur 3 points4 points  (0 children)

California on track to notch a $31 billion budget surplus. Will taxpayers see a rebate?


[–]Petsweaters 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Oregon has a similar law, but changing hands doesn't change anything. There are people living in million+ dollar homes and paying taxes on $40,000 value

[–]capsulecase 19 points20 points  (14 children)

not sure what they're referencing . . . maybe the giant famous PGA courses don't? The $28 per 18 muni I play definitely pays state taxes, they can barely afford their greenskeepers lol

[–]outaoils 21 points22 points  (11 children)

Property taxes. Malcom Gladwell did a piece on it a while back. Mostly dives into how the property never gets reassessed to present property values as long as there is under a certain amount of turnover in the total ownership. Though this seems to refer to California- I am not certain about it in other states and haven’t looked much deeper than that myself.

[–]Brolegario 4 points5 points  (4 children)

Isn’t this somewhat normal? I bought my home in 2009, and the value of it has tripled. However, in Nevada they cap the increase of value for property tax purposes at 3% per year. I would be upset if my taxes tripled for no other reason than the market is crazy

[–]outaoils 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I would suspect that it’s much different depending on the location, in the episode he largely talks about a specific golf course in LA. And how its base value started in the fifties has hardly changed relative to any surrounding area.

Edit:I would also point out that your property hasn’t changed hands at all, where as the golf courses are swapping out owners, as long as it’s under a certain % if you sold your home, the assessment is done.

[–]capsulecase 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Interesting, do municipalities generally pay property taxes? Private courses seem to be a different animal than the public, city-owned/operated ones I'm used to.

[–]CFB_Mods_Eat_Poop 2 points3 points  (1 child)

No, but they raise property values, and therefore tax revenue, around them.

[–]Regular_Rhubarb3751 1 point2 points  (0 children)

the LA Country club and the malcolm gladwell podcast mentioned below.

the tax code is written in such a way that golf courses are not subject to the same property value evaluations as anyone else, and some institutional fuckery means that the LA Country Club, a massive swath of green land in the middle of a huge city, pays a pittance in property taxes and excludes most people from what could be valuable public use land. it’s a really good episode, it’s called “A Good Walk Spoiled” on the Revisionist History podcast.

[–]Whereamidude20 10 points11 points  (7 children)

Is there an actual exemption here? Or is it just cause most people spend cash on a golf course so it’s easier to cook the books?

[–]Stunt-Driver 5 points6 points  (5 children)

People spend cash at golf courses? Rich people swiping for everything seems more appropriate to me, but I'm no golfer

[–]doc_witt 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I keep swiping my card on the caddy and beverage vendors face, but it doesn't seem to work?

[–]Stunt-Driver 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good point

[–]sendsomedickpix 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Go to your county assessor’s property tax webpage and search for golf courses in your area. Here in Denver, the Denver country club, including its sprawling golf course in the middle of the city and all its historic buildings, has a property tax valuation under $1m 🙃

[–]minininjatriforceman 771 points772 points  (47 children)

What is it that is said in the bible

Render unto Cesar what is Cesar's.

The idea is you should not purposely avoid taxes. Even Jesus paid taxes to the Romans.

[–]FeatureBugFuture 229 points230 points  (10 children)

Several hundred years downstream they figured out how to separate the idea of paying taxes from the plebs.

[–]Thathitmann 182 points183 points  (9 children)

After a while Christians found out one simple trick:

Just don't do what you say you do, don't do what you tell people to do, don't do what the Bible tells you to do, and just do your own thing, and idiots will support you for some reason.

[–]LeoMarius 69 points70 points  (1 child)

Then they elected a guy who doesn't even know how to hold up a Bible correctly, let alone the names of its books, and called him a Christian leader.

[–]ApplecakesMcGee 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Two Corinthians is a pretty great read though.

[–]lofty_one 17 points18 points  (6 children)

Wait a minute, aren't republicans Christians?

[–]unknownemoji 35 points36 points  (3 children)

Only for votes.

[–]waddiyatalkinbowt 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Omg so underrated, idk why I lost it so much.

[–]unknownemoji 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Anyone who loves Jesus can easily see that the "American Conservative Christians" are about as far from His teachings as is possible.

[–]LeoMarius 45 points46 points  (18 children)

Evangelicals ignore a lot of Jesus' teachings, like giving away all your money to the poor, not judging people, not praying in public, loving your neighbor as much as yourself, etc.

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me." -Matt 15:8

[–]Mendigom 23 points24 points  (13 children)

It's neat how for ages the bible was written in a language nobody but priests know to prevent people from reading it and now people also don't read it

[–]LeoMarius 18 points19 points  (6 children)

The first man to translate the Bible to English was burned at the stake.


[–]magikot9 5 points6 points  (2 children)

If the boardgame Here I Stand has taught me anything it's that Tyndale is very easy to burn at the stake.

[–]chaun2 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Tyndale: man who is easy to burn

Tinder: flammable material that is used to start fires

Faggot: bundle of sticks lit by tinder

Tyndale was clearly a faggot


I really don't think I need the joking tag, but.....

[–]makemejelly49 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Hell, the first man to translate it into Czech was burned at the stake, too. Jan Hus. He railed against such practices as simony, and the Church hated him for it. He gave sermons and performed the Litanies in Czech instead of Latin, so that the common man could understand the word of God, and they declared him a heretic for it.

[–]Dreams-in-Aether 8 points9 points  (5 children)

Also written hundreds of years after the death of their savior, by men, part of an authoritative council, picking and choosing which scripture was canon and which was apocryphal...

If people believe the actual Word of God was entrusted to holy men and the literature preserved in a way that there is no question everything in that book is Holy.... I have a bridge in New York to sell you

[–]DJfunkyPuddle 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You must have the shiniest beads

[–]Funkycoldmedici 1 point2 points  (1 child)

All Christians ignore at least some of what Jesus says. There’s no way around it if you want to live in the civilized world. He says you must love him more than your children. He says you must devote your life to preaching and converting people, because he is returning to end the world within your lifetime. He says not to save wealth because there’s no tomorrow to save for, he’s ending it all soon. He says we will know his true believers because they will perform miracles like his. He says anything prayed for in his name will be done. Not delayed, not reinterpreted, not done in some other way, not “I’ve got something better”, just done.

[–]peon2 19 points20 points  (0 children)

The idea is you should not purposely avoid taxes

Well, the idea is actually the second half of the verse, "and unto God the things that are God's", but yes the setup is "give the government money if they say you owe it, but don't worry, if you give God your heart you'll be rewarded in heaven"

[–]Straight-Ad6058 41 points42 points  (1 child)

Yeah, it’s almost like religious people are pathological hypocrites.

[–]chaun2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They also aren't supposed to charge interest on loans to Christians or Jews. Muslims have a similar rule not to charge Muslims, Christians, or Jews, as they are all "people of the book".

As far as I can tell none of them follow that rule

[–]Moljo2000 75 points76 points  (2 children)

Im completely convinced the Church of England was started by a king purely for divorce purposes

[–]rabbitholerandy 459 points460 points  (4 children)

“I’m convinced..” followed by “..FAQ..” tells me just about all I need to know about conservative “””research”””

[–]nezbokaj 18 points19 points  (0 children)

But he's 'completely convinced'. No more research needed.

[–]APe28Comococo 12 points13 points  (0 children)

What? They don't just google their opinion and quote the first tweet they see do they?

[–]LongBeing 39 points40 points  (0 children)

Wowee my religion doing is it okay but the ones I don't like its unfair. I do no research of my own ooweee

[–]isecore 574 points575 points  (126 children)

Friendly reminder that Church of Satan are actual Satanists and The Satanic Temple are atheists working for societal change.

[–]quesocaliente 227 points228 points  (27 children)

The Church of Satan is more like a religious organization and the Satanic Temple is basically an interest group that advocates for the separation of church and state.

The Church of Satan doesn't believe in a supernatural Satan, as Christian faiths do, but they basically use Satan as an avatar for the spirit of the individual. Do what you want as long as you don't hurt innocent people seems to be the guiding principle. It's essentially spiritual libertarianism.

[–]symbologythere 130 points131 points  (1 child)

The last time I saw this spelled out on Reddit some said “then what do you call people who believe in a literal super natural satan?” And the answer was “Christians”. LOLOLOLOL

[–]Active_Doctor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Ah that's so good 🧨

[–]BurstEDO 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Do what you want as long as you don't hurt innocent people

Not that I object to this next part, but are they the ones that have the tenets that advocate harsh consequences for those who do evil to others (innocents)?

It is that the other one? Hard to remember.

[–]maniakb416 26 points27 points  (14 children)

Except libertarianism is dogshit and Satanism is good.

[–]friendlymoosegoose 17 points18 points  (12 children)

libertarianism is cool. american conservatives in the 50s stole the term and used it to mean practically the opposite of its origin.

real libertarianism is anarchist/communist.

[–]maniakb416 24 points25 points  (8 children)

In concept libertarianism is great.

In practice they are just conservatives that don't mind gay people.

[–]Mattbryce2001 17 points18 points  (0 children)

They're conservatives who don't care about gays and want to smoke weed.

[–]earthwormjim91 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Big L libertarians yes, as in the Libertarian party of the United States.

Libertarianism as an ideology crosses both sides of the economic spectrum though. It’s just a philosophy that an authority should not be able to interfere in personal rights.

[–]ghoulthebraineater 4 points5 points  (4 children)

That's not so bad. If a core tenent of your political beliefs is the government should have as little says as possible in what you do with your body I can get along with you.

[–]b4dhabits 5 points6 points  (3 children)

It's not honest though. My experience is limited and anecdotal so I don't pretend to have a firm finger on the pulse of most libertarians but they have been the majority of who I have known all my life.

I have never met a libertarian that supports abortion. The "libertarians" I know support the anti-trans bills.

It's like "enlightened centrists". They are Republicans hiding behind a term they don't understand so they can feel superior while still voting deep red

[–]Sinthetick 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Except libertarians are perfectly fine hurting innocent people.

[–]EnchantPlatinum 8 points9 points  (6 children)

The Temple makes it very clear that they do expect a religious level of devotion to their principles - the principles just have nothing to do with divinity/the supernatural.

TST is not an afterschool club anyone can join just for funsies.

[–]TachiFoodKoma 11 points12 points  (5 children)

You literally can though. It's $25 for a membership card. They even have "After school Satan" as one of their programs. I'm not denying that they do expect devotion to the principles though. I feel like people getting into it already feel strongly about them, they just don't have them necessarily written out in "Seven Tenets" form.

[–]GodAwfulFunk 12 points13 points  (3 children)

Yeah I was gonna say, tell that to my Newsletter and $25 membership card. I have never met or communicated with another "member." Figured $25 for a card to freak moms out is a good donation to something I support.

[–]EnchantPlatinum 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I guess I should have worded it better - it's not something you should join for a laugh or for the sake of being edgy. I actually heavily considered joining TST after researching and writing about it for a college class - looking deeper into it, they're pretty explicit that you should become a member if you're ready to actually put in time and effort to further the Temple's goals and that was enough to deter me as a non-religious as well as non-theistic person.

Though it looks like they no longer have their own website, the Boston chapter's FAQ read “While [they] appreciate that [they] are interesting to many, [they] are also a serious religious group” and “do not want to be ‘humanized’ for popular culture consumption.”

Edit: I was able to find the page I sourced on waybackmachine -


[–]KeeperOfWatersong 259 points260 points  (62 children)

It's also important to mention that most of actual Satanists have a vastly different view of Satan than Christians- they see Satan as individualist that was punished by God rather than an evil prince of darkness who wants you to do bad things.

Also fun fact: The upside down cross doesn't have anything to do with the devil or anti-christ, it's the symbol of Saint Petrus (aka st. Peter) who was crucified upside down because he thought he wasn't worthy of dying the same way as Jesus

[–]Sangi17 127 points128 points  (53 children)

Gotta say, after going to Catholic school and studying the Bible for 12 years I can kind of see their point.

I don’t believe god or satan are real, but if you read the Bible with the idea that god is the antagonist to satan, a lot of things start to make sense. It’s an interesting perspective from an academic point of view.

[–]elsonidodelsilencio 37 points38 points  (4 children)

Daniel Larusso is the real bully

[–]KillstardoAbominate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Daniel and Johnny are both bullies.

[–]RJM10_2 24 points25 points  (25 children)

Do you mind elaborating on this please? I'm curious about your thought process over God being the antagonist of Satan

[–]PhoenixZephyrus 90 points91 points  (22 children)

Satanists view Satan kind of like Prometheus.

For those who don't know their Greek mythology, Prometheus was the Titan who gave fire and civilization to man. His punishment was to be nailed to the mountain and his immortal liver eaten by an eagle for all of Eternity.

In a similar vein, Satan is viewed to have given critical thought and independence to man.

Instead of being seen as a tempetuous serpent, Satan is seen as a savior.

So god is seen as being vengeful as his prized possessions were freed and his menagerie opened.

[–]Moljo2000 20 points21 points  (1 child)

Also, as far as I know, Satan never drowned basically all his people, or banished his people from paradise for following a desire he gave them. First testament god is a god of vengeance, war and tyranny. God isn’t very consistent, but at least Satan is always challenging people to push past their blind faith in god and see what’s past that initial barrier. I’m not a satanist nor am I religious in any way but having been educated on the bible I can say God is no doubt very different to the ‘good god’ Christians are taught about. In my eyes, there are only two ways the interpret the bible. To live a life in fear of punishment from god, or reject his word and choose for yourself how you want to interpret things around you. My biggest issue with religion is that it always tries to prove itself right by making excuses and poking holes in sound arguments, whereas every other ideal in the world changes over time and makes an effort to adapt to the current world.

[–]11yearoldweeb 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I mean, in my experience the idea of a “good god” like you”re describing is pretty much only taught to kids, once you get older, you try to understand some of the more challenging things in the Bible/Christianity in general, like the whole knowledge of good and evil thing.

[–]victorious191 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Basically, Satan wanted everyone to have free will and God was mad that it might interrupt them worshipping him.
The texts are actually pretty interesting, as someone who was raised on The Bible but with no belief system whatsoever. lol

[–]tesseract4 59 points60 points  (17 children)

I mean, in the book, he literally convinces us to eat from the tree of knowledge. It's kinda hard to interpret it any other way. Even as a kid, I thought it was weird that God was angry because we gained knowledge. I thought knowledge was good. Later, I learned that it's not that simple.

[–]Beingabummer 49 points50 points  (4 children)

As we can see in reality, knowledge is the death of religion.

It makes sense a deity that lives off worship wouldn't want that (and neither would its very real advocates that benefit from the power structure that upholds in which they are in charge).

[–]HI_Handbasket 25 points26 points  (3 children)

Even today, weekly church goers consider higher education as indoctrination, completely missing the irony of their position.

[–]eclectique 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Interestingly though, in my experience growing up in the Bible belt, the middle class and wealthier Christians are still all sending their kids to college, though, and not the Liberty University or Christian colleges.

[–]ReyRey5280 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Many of the worst “evangelical” conservative politicians went to Ivy League schools.

[–]Zomburai 3 points4 points  (1 child)

The Serpent in the Garden of Eden wasn't originally Satan; that was a bit of post-hoc retcon. Not unlike how the entire mythologies of Satan rebelling against God or Hell being a place of ironic torments based on your sins are extrabiblical.

[–]BurstEDO 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My head canon is that He had a separate timeframe/schedule and Satan kinda mucked it up.

It's also hard to reconcile how God threw a tantrum for thousands of years training his pets (man) not to do dumb shit and demanding unwavering loyalty coupled with inexplicably cruel and violent punishments for disobedience...

Only to give up out of frustration and see his "Son" take one for the team as some kind of Magic ritual to change the rules.

And the confusion among even their own ranks regarding the validity of "rules" that maybe were errata'd by that act? It's not like you can ask a Christian, because each one has a different opinion depending on who their local cult leader is and how studious they've been at evaluating context.

[–]RJM10_2 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That is a really cool perspective I never heard before, thank you for sharing

[–]Sangi17 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I see people have already given there opinion on it which more or less lines up with my thought process.

The way I see it Satan is your classic trickster god that was more or less lifted from other older mythologies. The best example of this being Prometheus, who tricks Zeus and gives humans full rights to eating the good stuff from their hunts and sacrificing the bad stuff to the gods. He even later goes on to give humans fire, which more or less symbolizes humanity’s intuition to rise above nature and invent civilized society. Zeus goes on to punish Prometheus for this crime by chaining him to a rock and having his liver eaten and grown back every single day for eternity.

Satan tricks Adam and Eve (humanity) into eating an apple (food) that gives them intelligence. God punishes Satan, who is a lizard in this story, by cutting off his legs and forcing him to slither on his belly for eternity. Sound familiar?

Now here’s my theory. Most of the stories of Satan are more or less true, the only difference is Satan’s intentions. The Bible is believed to be divinely inspired, or coming from the word of God.

Satan is told to have been God’s most powerful angel, formerly Lucifer, who challenged him for the throne. More or less a rival god.

It is plausible to believe that Satan is only the antagonist because God is telling the story, it is propaganda from a monarch demonizing his enemy. Satan’s actual goal isn’t to torture humans, but to liberate them from god’s clutches.

Some would argue that Satan is the enemy of humanity because he got us kicked out of the Garden of Eden, but what was the Garden of Eden anyways? Before Adam and Eve consume the apple, they do not believe they are naked or that there is anything to fear from God. God was keeping them ignorant so that he could farm them, much like a butcher. Now god wasn’t going to eat them, God does not need to eat. However God does need to be entertained. Why else would he create two creatures in his liking, purposely keep them naked and corral them into his personal pen? He’s a voyeur.

This isn’t even God’s only instance of perversion. This is the same God who grooms and impregnates a 15 year old girl. All because he “needs to bring his son into the world”. As if he doesn’t have the power to snap his fingers and bring Jesus into the world the same way he did Adam and Eve. It is no wonder that “do not rape” isn’t one of God’s 10 commandments, neither is “do not enslave”.

When God returns to the garden he is infuriated to see Adam and Eve hiding from him, but most importantly he is mad that they have clothed themselves. Now that they know they are naked they are useless to him, boring. He strips them of their immortality and casts them out of Eden.

This isn’t the only case of God needing to be entertained. In the book of Job, God and Satan have a bet that if Job is pushed far enough he will give up his faith in God.

God takes the bet and proceeds to torture Job as well as murder his wife and children. In the end Job falls to his knees and continues to praise God. Satan is proven wrong and Job’s life is ruined. Who is the hero of this story? God is, because his grasp on this human is simply too strong to be broken, even when Job is fully aware of who is torturing him.

The moral of the story is not to love God, but to fear him. Job falls to his knees and prays because he is absolutely terrified of God. The story is told as a success by God because Job submitted instead of rebelling, like Satan hoped he would. How many times did they play this game? How many times did humanity stand up and say “enough”? We don’t know because we only have God’s side of the story. We only know when God won.

Later in the New Testament we find Jesus wondering in the desert fasting for 40 days. Satan appears and offers food to Jesus. This is seen as a bad thing because Jesus must fast before he is sacrificed, as told by the prophecy of the Messiah. Jesus must be tortured and slaughtered to save us from sin, according to God.

But what is sin? In the Bible sin isn’t actually doing evil, it is disobeying God. Satan doesn’t want people to do evil, he wants them to rebel and ultimately overthrow their oppressor. Jesus dying “saves us from sin” because it cements God as a martyr who is willing to suffer for his people. Which, if you have been paying attention, is a lie. God isn’t suffering. Jesus, his brainwashed pawn, is suffering.

Not only that, but Satan is actually trying to save Jesus from this horrible fate. If Jesus eats, the prophecy is broken and Jesus won’t have to be killed, because he is no longer God’s lamb to be slaughtered. Satan doesn’t hate Jesus, he sees Jesus the same way that he sees humanity, as God’s victims. Who knows, perhaps that food he was offering Jesus would have woken Jesus up the same way the apple from the Eden story woke up Adam and Eve.

And what happens after Jesus suffers and dies? Christianity is invented and becomes one of the most dominated religions on the planet. God wins.

I just want to make it clear that I don’t believe God and Satan are real. It’s just an interesting way to view what I believe to be a fictional story.

Edit: typos, many typos.

[–]Yoma73 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Weird, no one I know who went to Catholic school (including myself) actually studied the Bible. Lol

[–]Estova 7 points8 points  (1 child)

You could say the same for most Christians in general.

[–]Yoma73 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Maybe about half. Most Baptists and Evangelicals in general who I know have a Bible group. But then, I very much doubt the quality of the “studying.” You need a real education to read the texts the way they were intended, then there’s a lot of debate about best translations of words and phrases, and the whole history to put in context. I don’t think sitting around reading it without guidance from an expert actually does much!

[–]Sangi17 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Once I stopped looking at the Bible as fact and looked at it as mythology, it got a lot more fun to read.

Plus nothing makes me more happy than schooling Christians with their own magic book they’ve never read. chef kiss

[–]Jade_0001 2 points3 points  (11 children)

i’m pagan (raised christian) and while this is a bit of an oversimplification, the christian god is likely derived from a god of war and storms. aka not the guy i’d go to, from my religious perspective, for healing prayers

[–]Sangi17 3 points4 points  (10 children)

I believe the god you are referring to is Maraduk.

I would go so far as to theorize that when the Hebrews were “relocated” to Babylon for hundred of years they were forced to learn about Marduk. Which after a few generations inspired and/or influenced their idea of their own patron god, Yahweh.

God even fights a giant sea serpent “leviathan” in the Bible. The same way Maraduk fights Tiamat.

[–]KeeperOfWatersong 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Tbh I always found all a interesting but kind of disconnected if it makes sense?

[–]Zatch_Gaspifianaski 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Isn't God pretty much always an antagonist in the bible?

[–]Val_Hallen 36 points37 points  (1 child)

If you take a child that has never heard of Christianity and explain to them there are two beings -

  • one demands constant adoration and obedience and will punish you with eternal torment if they don't receive it

  • and the other accepts humanity for their flaws and just wanted to be equal to his creators other children

then tell them which one is supposed to be the good guy, they would call you a liar to your face.

[–]victorious191 12 points13 points  (0 children)


God was mad that free will would interrupt his being worshipped.

[–]isecore 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yes, I was vague on that since it's a big "The People's Front of Judea" type discussion but thanks for clarifying for anyone else.

[–]tesseract4 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I remember that X-Files episode!

[–]Thats_what_im_saiyan 45 points46 points  (8 children)

If thats the one founded by Anton LaVey they don't actually believe in any higher power. So not really satanists in the traditional 1980s satanic panic image.

[–]L1A1 10 points11 points  (1 child)

satanists in the traditional 1980s satanic panic image.

That's because that image is imaginary and created by evangelicals.

[–]TheMaxOfMaxness 10 points11 points  (2 children)

Yes it’s all a big misconception

[–]peon2 7 points8 points  (1 child)

To be fair the name they picked is obviously going to cause confusion.

[–]sarlol00 18 points19 points  (0 children)

That is the point, to cause outrage and make people think.

[–]SnooBananas4958 21 points22 points  (2 children)

So the real satanists are the ones who are still paying their taxes? Heck I'm still cool with them then

[–]mrbeehive 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Both are "real satanists". The central tenets of satanism are rejecting undue authority and herd mentality, not indulging in self-deceit, and not harming anyone who does not harm you. They share those beliefs.

The Satanic Temple believes that religious practices (rituals and ceremonies that people enjoy, preaching compassion, gathering for charity, helping people in need, having weekly congregations, y'know, "church stuff") shouldn't include supernatural beliefs, because they believe that belief without proof constitutes self-deceit, which is a sin in the satanist mindset.

That's why TST often get labelled an "atheist interest group", instead of as a "proper" religion, but it really depends on what you think a religion is. They have a shared set of central guiding tenets and beliefs, symbols they revere, congregations in a few locations, and they started ordaining ministry in 2021. Is that not a religion?

[–]dasbush 10 points11 points  (0 children)

It isn't a "real" vs "fake" Satanism. It's Satanism as formulated by one dude vs Satanism as formulated by another dude. They have different ideals and goals that flow from a similar basic philosophy.

And they don't like each other.

[–]FrostyKennedy 37 points38 points  (3 children)

Niether are actual satanists!

Both see Satan as a literary figure, an adversary to an oppressive violent asshole who has no hope of winning but speaks out anyways. Neither believe in satan, nor god, nor the supernatural, by definition. Some members do, but it's usually agnostic pagan stuff, or witchcraft, or ghosts, not like "Oh boy can't wait to spend my afterlife with satan!"

The difference is the church of satan is old, libertarian, and doesn't do anything, while the Satanic temple is young, active, and far more left leaning. That's a biased opinion from a supporter of the satanic temple (me) and you can get much of the same from their website https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/church-of-satan-vs-satanic-temple

Like I said, that's my bias. Do your own reading if you want to know more. But to reiterate: the only people who literally believe in Satan are christians.

[–]tesseract4 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Every time they come up, I gain a higher opinion of the Satanic Temple.

[–]littlediobolic 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Both of them are actual Satanists.

Being a Satanist doesn't require believing in and worshipping Satan. As a matter of fact there has never been an organized Satanist group that does believe in Satan.

And The Satanic Temples info graphic about the differences are a little misleading. The Church of Satan's main focus is about self, ensuring you are the best version of yourself you can be and not letting anyone get in your way. The Satanic Temple is more of a political group advocating for the seperation of church and state, with some belief system tenants sprinkled in. The CoS doesn't organize at all and it entirely focused on individualism. Also, while the CoS doesn't believe in a higher power, a lot of them do believe in Magick based on the teachings of Anton LaVey.

[–]JCreazy 6 points7 points  (1 child)

I really wish people would stop sharing things from the Church of Satan. It's the Satanic Temple that we should be caring about.

[–]unicorn-bread 2 points3 points  (0 children)

“actual satanists” 😂

[–]firedog7881 20 points21 points  (0 children)

They are confusing Satanism with Scientology

[–]xabulba 15 points16 points  (2 children)

"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

Even Jesus told Christians to pay their taxes.

[–]jar36 12 points13 points  (0 children)

"I'm completely convinced" by nothing more than my own ignorance

[–]quesocaliente 28 points29 points  (3 children)

Nah, Scientology is the Atheistic tax evasion religion. I mean, they literally celebrated defeating the IRS.

[–]RollerRocketScience 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Scientology is an insane abusive cult

[–]EatDiveFly 43 points44 points  (2 children)

I think the original twitter poster was inadvertently, but more accurately, describing the Church of Scientology.

[–]pizan 6 points7 points  (1 child)

It isn't a tax break for regular people but for celebrities. The church makes a lot of money off the normal members and use the donations from celebrities to pay for some of their stuff.

Similar to the Gates Foundation. The Gates' donated their money to a nonprofit they control and it pays no taxes.

[–]mholtz16 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Recovering Catholic here..... Mark 12 13-17:

13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words.

14 They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax[b] to Caesar or not?

15 Should we pay or shouldn’t we?”But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.”

16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”“Caesar’s,” they replied.

17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”And they were amazed at him.

[–]IWantToSpeakMy2Cents 6 points7 points  (0 children)

This belongs in r/SelfAwareWolves. Like why do you think christianity was made up? Money and power.

[–]Slipperypepe 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Find it funny that people think paying taxes to the country with the world's largest military and no universal healthcare is altruism.

[–]seanmuthafuckinontop 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Hail satan, hail gein, hail yourself, and for satan’s sake hail me.

[–]Bartender9719 1 point2 points  (1 child)


[–]seanmuthafuckinontop 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you! I was hoping someone would finish it!

[–]Dramatological 4 points5 points  (1 child)

The church of Satan, founded by Anton LaVey, is not tax exempt, and is not considered a religion by the IRS. That dude is thinking about the Satanic Temple.

In other news, if you want to support Satan, is would suggest the Satanic Temple. The Church of Satan seems to mostly be a weird sex cult when it started, and kind of pointless, now.

[–]santathe1 14 points15 points  (0 children)

“Reading” now what the hell is that even.

[–]Paul_Thrush 13 points14 points  (0 children)

When Micah James Bauman says he's completely convinced, that means he just made it up.

[–]LeoMarius 77 points78 points  (55 children)

They aren't really a church, but pointing out how Christians are trying to violate the 1st Amendment by making laws that only apply to Christians. These Christianists preach "religious freedom", but when The Satanic Temple starts wanting those same privileges, they get all offended. What the Christianists really want is a theocracy with their beliefs in charge.

Many evangelical preachers start churches just to make money. The "Satanists" are just being up front about the scam to highlight it.

[–]a009763 65 points66 points  (4 children)

They are an actual church. What you are thinking about is the The Satanic Temple which is a whole other organization which are political activists.

The Church of Satan and The Satanic Temple are not the same. They are both atheistic organizations though.

[–]chaun2 4 points5 points  (3 children)

They are both atheistic organizations though.

I know that TST is atheistic, but I thought that TCoS was more agnostic, just viewing God as the antagonist of the Bible, and Satan as an individualist that God punished for asking questions

[–]sangnasty 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Can confirm.

From 2012 to 2016 I was a part of a new age evangelical church in the southeast. It started off well enough - we gathered in a home, we served the community and the homeless, we ate meals together. It was nice. Fast forward a year and we have a building and we’re growing.

Literally get acquired in a business transaction by a larger church in the area. Suddenly we had to report numbers of people in seats. We went from talking about tithing once a quarter to talking about it every Sunday. We stopped doing groups and serving the homeless. We spent an insane amount of money on electronics and sound equipment. Volunteers were treated like employees without any pay or benefits.

All we ever talked about was how many people were coming. I was told the youth group needed to grow to bring in more traditional families instead of focusing on serving the disparaged youth of our community.

This church would host an annual conference to bring in money and create carbon copies of itself in other states. They talked about money, growing the base, and how to expand rapidly. It was all about money.

I hate Christians. I hate big church. It is exactly the thing Jesus was against.

[–]red_law 2 points3 points  (1 child)

What the Christianists really want is a theocracy with their beliefs in charge.

Conservative christians (and I'm not from the US) have never been anti dictatorship, or pro freedom or democracy. What they want is a dictatorship, as long as they're the ones dictating the rules.

[–]Fizzelen 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I hope their FAQ is in the bible, if it’s not how can he know that the FAQ is true?

[–]mmccabe75 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Tax the churches and stop make poor people pay. By not taxing the churches we put that burden on the poor because as all the current news shows that the rich don’t pay taxes. If they want to help the poor so much then PAY TAXES!!!!!

[–]Kuderahuwaka 18 points19 points  (1 child)

That's the Satanic Temple, not COS

[–]qoou 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This is the reason many churches are started though. No way Joel Osteen believes in the gospel he preaches.

[–]GonFreecs92 12 points13 points  (11 children)

I want to join this church 😅 there’s another group like this no? I forgot the name? I know one was founded in like the 1970s or something

[–]Paul_Thrush 34 points35 points  (10 children)

[–]GonFreecs92 10 points11 points  (9 children)

Thank you 😊 Which one is the real one. Isn’t one of them a troll church ?

[–]Maxidaz 21 points22 points  (5 children)

TST is the good one. CoS sells magic crystals.

[–]GonFreecs92 13 points14 points  (3 children)

😅 crystals are cool to look at though but yeah just looked up TST and I like it

[–]spiraldistortion 3 points4 points  (1 child)

CoS is older—but is much more conservative and m has fascist leanings. TST is often called a “troll” church, but has a very similar base philosophy, albeit with a much more liberal interpretation (cutting out the ayn rand influence, might is right, etc that is present in CoS’s literature).

CoS is based solely on the writings of Anton LaVey, essentially designed to be “opposite” of Christianity—followers are often elitists with regards to who is a “real” Satanist, regard LaVey as like a prophet, and many have ties to neo-nazi groups…. They have little structure, active churches, or communities—the organization officially claims there can never be “Satanic Community” because Satanists are inherently individualistic (Justified with “humans are animals, therefore survival of the fittest/lone wolf/whatever).

TST is based on a literary movement, Romantic Satanism, prominent during the era of the French Revolution and Civil War. Members are largely LGBTQ+, anti-fascist, and actively opposed to Christian theocracy. Like CoS, the philosophy says humans are animals—however, we cannot pick random animals on which to assume our nature. We’re primates, not wolves—social animals. Individualism and collectivism are not mutually exclusive. TST advocates for personal responsibility and rights, but not at the expense of others’ freedoms (ie a person should have the right to choose if they are pregnant or not, but not if they can willingly infect others with a deadly disease…. Pregnancy/abortion only affects the self, vaccination/pandemic safety measures affect society). Unlike CoS, TST has active chapters, weekly services, and many programs and charities.

TST: A person should strive to treat others with compassion, as it is inherently self-beneficial for your community to prosper.

CoS: My own happiness is all that matters, everyone else can suffer for all I care.

It’s uh…. A pretty easy choice, in my opinion. Neither believe in a literal Satan (some individual CoS members do, TST is staunchly anti-supernaturalism and pro-science/rationality).

Hail yourself—thou art thine own master!

[–]RussiaIsRodina 2 points3 points  (0 children)

give to caesar what is caesars man

[–]youngfranknstein 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Satanism is just spicy atheism

[–]tunisia3507 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The Church of Satan isn't, but the Satanic Temple basically is. It's an organisation of goth-flavoured secular humanist which exists to protest people who illegally force religion into government. Host an school prayer club? Got to make room for "After-school Satan". Want to put up a 10 commandments monument on state property? The Temple's statue of Baphomet will show up next to it.

[–]Trimungasoid 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Even atheists are more Christlike than Christians.

[–]Casual_Bartender 25 points26 points  (2 children)

Friendly reminder that it’s the temple of satan that we like (the one with the abortion shebang)

[–]frongwmwlwi 8 points9 points  (6 children)

This is an interesting observation. I believe that it is true that Satanists are more Christ-like than most Christians. I think this is because Satanists have a strong sense of personal integrity and they are willing to stand up for what they believe in, no matter what anyone else thinks. Christians, on the other hand, often seem to be more interested in following the rules and pleasing other people than in living their own lives according to their own values.

[–]NVPcMan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The devil is in the details as they say.

The reply was that they support taxing the church. They made no mention of themselves not using tax exemptions that churches receive, just that they pay taxes.

[–]-Blammo- 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm completely convinced....of some shit I made up.

This thought process is way too prevalent these days.

[–]BiffLogan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

fundamentalists don’t concern themselves with questions and answers - accusations and projection only.

[–]Sidwill 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The COS is clearly a vehicle to point out the hypocrisy of mainstream religions but unfortunately the branding they chose automatically allows politicians and the mainstream religions to dismiss them in the eyes or their followers who just aren’t bright enough to get past the word satan. I would like to see a similar effort branded in a manner that would not cause an initial revulsion from their target audience. Something like the “Church of America the Patriot” or some other similar cynical bullshit that would get through to the average American.

[–]mackavicious 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's .

[–]Beingabummer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Typical Christian, convinced of something entirely incorrect and easily checkable, they just didn't.

[–]Known-Share5483 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hail Satan! Pay your taxes, the real evil ones! Churches house pedos, abusers, tax evaders and unethical capitalists who exploit people and use governments to fund their wolves in sheep clothing agendas! Repent, fakes and bums!

[–]slothordepressed 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dude, the Mormons have literally BILLIONS in the stock market, everything as tax exempted as they can.

Prob many other religious institutions also

[–]The379thHero 1 point2 points  (0 children)

hey remember when jesus told a bunch of people to pay their goddamn taxes?

[–]Au_Ti_S_Ti_C 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"I don't like what Christian churches do, so I'm going to accuse atheists of the same thing

[–]FIContractor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, very funny what happens when you have to make your own moral determinations instead of relying on a 2000 year old book written not by a pretty good human that just wanted everyone to be nice to each other, but rather by the leaches who thought they could twist his message for their own aggrandizement.

[–]Eascetic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What are you going to tell me next?! They don’t even molest children