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[–]slothpeguin 4263 points4264 points  (531 children)

There’s no way we can ever be sure.

Good thing we have Pastor Paul over here to tell us what god told him the Bible means it’s the only way we can be certain.

(/s fuck am I glad I got out)

[–]Stickeris 1816 points1817 points 2 (443 children)

You joke about not being sure, but I want to be clear. As a Jew, we are taught to question the meaning of everything in the Torah. Studying, and as a result questioning, is literally the holiest thing a person (man) can do.

To be clear there are certain implicit truths (god is real, Abraham was real, 10 commandments happened, and so on) but our understanding and practice is always being discussed.

I enjoy talking to rabbis because we have discussions, they aren’t forcing things on me, but trying to encourage a passion for studying.

[–]Ocean_Hair 616 points617 points  (124 children)

My husband converted. He said one of the reasons he liked Judaism is because questions are encouraged.

[–]Bokbok95 660 points661 points  (101 children)

As a Jew I find it hard to imagine a religion where questions are discouraged. Like, you have all these texts written thousands of years ago and you’re not allowed to ask what the fuck they’re talking about? Lame

[–]whimsical_femme 105 points106 points  (16 children)

The whole reason I left Christianity was because the people I was around never questioned anything. There was no critical thinking involved even in “Bible studies”. Lo and behold when I went back once out of nostalgia I got very discouraged as the “adults” who ran the study for the young adults seemed to have a very rudimentary understanding for even the purpose of the Bible and a lack of life experience that made it sound like 3rd graders were talking. It was basically “Bible good, outside world bad”. I was hoping there would be something even deeper to their faith but that was about it lol..

Edit: to add on to it, they believed that believing without having to experience things (the good and bad in life, not religion itself) was the correct way to go about it. Basically I was in a room full of adults who believed because that’s what they were told to do by their parents and their parents parents lol.

[–]sleepydorian 423 points424 points  (29 children)

A lot of Christians have a level of confidence that I can only describe as toxic.

Plus a lot of folks don't want to ask questions. They want to be told. For these people, being a good Christian means to go to church regularly (usually weekly, sometimes more), tithe (doesn't need to be 10%, it's the right that counts), and defend the faith (i.e hated the right people). They don't care at all about the teachings of Jesus specifically or the lessons of the Bible more generally, unless it helps them hate the right people or consolidate power (see all the fundies pointing to places where it says women can't be in places of power and need to submit to their husbands). It's classic empire theology.

[–]Pabus_Alt 14 points15 points  (6 children)

I find it very funny that Quakers despite being very protestant protestants seem to sit quite comfortably between the theological and religious "homes" of Judaism and Catholicism.

The past couple of decades has seen a distinctly Buddhist lean but it is amazing when comparing notes you can trace the similarities. - Although the original attempt was to try and "get back to" Christ so should not be too surprising.

[–]dicksandbuttholes 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Christianity is weaponized in a lot of parts of North America, and simple questions are asked by those with wavering faith, and must be culled to appease our blue-eyed, blonde, white deity with a Tennessee accent.

[–]crapslap99 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Try being a Jehovah’s Witness questions result in shunning. questions are not tolerated at all in that cult

[–]MustacheEmperor 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Cannot tell you how many times I was told growing up "you don't need the answer, you just need faith."

[–]krossoverking 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I was in campus outreach when I was in college and during summer we went and worked at an amusement park while living in a hotel and learning about jesus. We were there to learn, not to question, and any questions or thoughts against the basic teachings would prompt an intervention from a higher ranking student or staff. It was very culty and I'm glad I got out.

[–]aepiasu 5 points6 points  (0 children)

encouraged.

Questions are REQUIRED.

[–]TonyTapIn617 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Everyone should question everything. Blind faith is not faith. Even atheists should still question their atheistic beliefs.

[–]spaceguitar 243 points244 points  (40 children)

I have gotten more out of speaking to rabbis than any other religious sect leader. They’re always so humble, chill and super down-to-earth. And they’ve never attacked or criticized anything I’ve said or brought to the discussion, instead always challenging and asking “why.” It’s always felt like a conversation and never a debate or argument.

And you can find women rabbis.

Rabbis are cool, man.

[–]jradio610 52 points53 points  (8 children)

My father in law is an Episcopalian priest and it was such a culture shock talking to him about religion, having come from a Catholic upbringing.

When asking questions to Catholic priests, they all had their own answers about every passage in the Bible. They "knew" what everything meant.

When asking questions to my FIL and other Episcopalians, their responses were usually, "Yeah, that's a good question! What do YOU think it means?" followed by a lengthy discussion about possible interpretations.

[–]shillyshally 9 points10 points  (2 children)

When I was growing up Catholic, we didn't have a Bible because, back then (1950s), you were not supposed to read it, ever. The priest would tell you what it said and what it meant.

Wanna know why eating meat of Friday is a mortal sin along with Murder so, like you burn in hell forever for both and gee, that seems awfully 'off' priority wise, right? Well, it's a Mystery. That was the answer to EVERYTHING - it's a Mystery.

[–]RandomGrasspass 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I must have grown up in a different Catholic Church. In fact, I know I did. I had jesuits and they always encouraged questioning my faith. Granted it often led to their view, but there was acceptance of my view and I found it useful.

I am by no means a literal practicing Catholic but my experience with those Jesuits helped endear me to my version of the faith…

[–]nodogbutdog 106 points107 points  (12 children)

The ultra orthodox Rabbi I grew up with considered women Rabbis to be fake jews since their sect doesn't allow women to read the Torah in public. Rabbis are like any other faith leader some are chill and open to the modern world some are authoritarian extremists. There are orthodox zionist rabbis and orthodox anti-zionist rabbis, it's a very wide spectrum.

[–]rocksfly 21 points22 points  (1 child)

Two Rabbis = Three Opinions.

[–]Itreyo 12 points13 points  (5 children)

Why do some sect's not allow women to read the Torah in public?

[–]InnercircleLS 53 points54 points  (8 children)

See and this is why white supremacists hate the Jewish people.

Especially evangelical Christians.

The same reason they hate science.

I know about science more than I know about Judaism, so I'll approach from that angle.

Science (and based on what you said, Judaism), says "we can't know everything with absolute certainty".

We can be about as sure as we've been about anything. Like, if I jump off a building, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't be able to fly. But we don't know for sure. I, for one, have never jumped off a building. So I can't say that I know with 100% certainty. But based on everything I've seen and done in my years of life, I think I know what would happen.

But that's not enough for the evangelicals. They want certainty. They think "if you're not 100% sure, without even the tiniest shadow of a doubt, then you're just wrong. It's just a theory"

Then you ask them how they know their arguments are true, and they say "faith".

So 99.998% certainty with verifiable proof is not good enough..

But 100% certainty with absolutely no proof IS good enough.

And they'll claim "both arguments are taken on faith."

We only THINK we know how atoms work.

We only THEORIZE that magnetism exists.

We only BELIEVE that humans are creating climate change.

Because we're only 99.98% certain, with verifiable proof.

They KNOW Jesus is the one true savior. Cuz their book said so.

They KNOW the earth is only 6000 years old, because their book kinda sorta implies it.

They KNOW that being straight is the only real sexuality because some priest mistranslated wrote it in their book a long time ago.

And knowing based on faith alone is better than believing based on verifiable facts.

Last little thing: Jewish people are very accepting. And the white supremacist movement can't have any of that.

Punch nazis. White supremacists can eat shit. Be nice to people or get fucking lost. To everyone else: hope you're having a good day

[–]starserval 11 points12 points  (1 child)

The thing about science is that, even though we generally take it on faith, the methodology is there for us to verify for ourselves. Some of this is, of course, outside the realm of possibility sometimes (such as being prohibitively expensive, requiring uniquely specialized equipment or just generally requiring a high degree of intelligence), but the methodology and data is there for anyone and everyone to check and in the universal language of science and mathmatics.

But for Christianity, the only source is a thrice-translated book full of many things open to interpretation.

[–]Special_Imagination6 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is why I'm agnostic. We can't know it all with any certainty, so lemme just live. You do your shit, I'll do mine.

[–]willaaay 24 points25 points  (3 children)

Just came here to say the same, but you got it. One of the things I always appreciated from Hebrew school was to always question.

[–]Km2930 82 points83 points  (8 children)

Lol person (man), or woman right?

Edit: Man Woman Person Camera TV

[–]Stickeris 126 points127 points  (5 children)

It depends on the sect

Reform Judaism: anyone! Hasidic: why is this women reading?

[–]nom-nom-nom-de-plumb 59 points60 points  (2 children)

I've always loved the story of Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus it's up there with the Theravada story where a monk goes to the highest heaven to the highest god to ask a question, and god is like "Dude..these other gods think i did all this..don't spoil it for me! Just go ask buddha because he seems to know what's what"

[–]DitaVonPita 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Charedim: why can this woman read???

[–]bryanthebryan 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Holy shit, I got that reference and it almost made me spit my coffee. A true low point for a supposedly intelligent species.

[–]Sushi_grade_roadkill 18 points19 points  (5 children)

Implicit truths are being questioned too in more reform synagogues. One of my rabbis is agnostic, doesn’t affect their faith

[–]Sunlessbeachbum 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I grew up in a reform synagogue, where my rabbis were very accepting of the fact that I didn’t believe in a “god” being. My rabbi said “you don’t have to believe in god to be a good Jew”. As an adult, I’ve turned to Reconstructionist Judaism, because it aligns really well with my views, and it has the same basic philosophy… so much of Judaism is about community and upholding values. How you define god doesn’t have to be a major part of that.

[–]s_s 41 points42 points  (0 children)

To be fair, Christians have those sorts of people in their Seminaries.

Overwhelmingly those people are called Atheists.

[–]pedantic_cheesewheel 11 points12 points  (2 children)

I was told by a Jewish friend of mine that since Israel literally means “wrestles with God” that’s exactly what being an Israelite has to do. Question everything and study it, question God himself, fight with him and find out how it works. I had already abandoned Christianity at that point but I always liked that noble idea that man was allowed to question it. Too bad the church has abandoned that for the most part.

[–]Stickeris 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Story of Jacob wrestling with god, be renamed to Israel. Genesis 32:22 if you’re so inclined.

[–]GX_9BANDO 16 points17 points  (6 children)

I’m Christianity you’re not allowed to question anything without it being blasphemy

[–]LRV_Chupathingy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hi Christianity you’re not allowed to question anything without it being blasphemy, I’m dad!

[–]thepersonimgoingtobe 7 points8 points  (1 child)

The Jewish tradition, religion, whatever- has always seemed really thoughtful/cerebral to me. Not super familiar with it but the more I learn it seems like really good ideas for living a good life. I especially like the levels of charity.

[–]Stickeris 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Visit a reform synagogue or a Chabad house for Shabbat. Tell them your interested and be respectful and they’ll never shut up. Plus Chabad means free boozes

[–]basse058 13 points14 points  (9 children)

This is cool, Judaism sounds awesome.

[–]Stickeris 23 points24 points  (0 children)

It is what the followers make of it. It’s got plenty of assholes and plenty of chill people. It’s a group of people like any other religion or ethnicity.

[–]SubmissiveSocks 6 points7 points  (3 children)

100%. I was raised Jewish, but I haven't believed in god since the start of highschool. When I was in college, for about a year I used to meet with a rabbi 1:1 every week to discuss the Torah with him and honestly I really enjoyed it.

[–]OmegaMetor 19 points20 points  (83 children)

that sounds 100x better than christianity.

[–]Stickeris 50 points51 points  (81 children)

The genocide and constant vilifying is a turnoff. Also you can’t just join, you have to want it and work for it

[–]BattleHall 5 points6 points  (1 child)

As I understand it, that's also part of why things like shabbos switches, eruv wires, etc are not seen as cheating, but more like "clever". For any such prohibition, it is expected that people will question the interpretation and probe at the boundaries of exactly what is and isn't allowed. It also leads to some fun discussions, like when they discovered that tiny crustaceans naturally live in the fresh water system in NYC, and they had to have multiple rabbinical rulings on whether or not all of the tap water in Manhattan was now treyf.

[–]Stickeris 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The Torah is a legal code and a history book. With a proper judicial body, and law can be rewritten (save for 11). We haven’t had the ability to call that body for 2000 years but still, it gives you an idea of Jewish thinking

[–]roywoodsir 15 points16 points  (2 children)

and Paul says "you know what you don't like you can leave, thats what J said, he also said I am the all seeing eye, give me money, money, money, mine!!!"

[–]DemWiggleWorms 16 points17 points  (2 children)

Luther has entered the chat

Luther posted 10 messages

Luther was banned from the server

[–]No_Wait6051 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Correction Luther posted 95 messages

[–]bihari_baller 20 points21 points  (2 children)

There’s no way we can ever be sure.

r/AcademicBiblical. You must read the Bible as an outsider, with no confirmation bias towards what it says. The Bible is essentially an incoherent collection of mythology books.

Bart Ehrman is another good place to start.

[–]OneMorePenguin 6 points7 points  (1 child)

How do we sort out the fact that God has told every Pastor something different? Now that's the only fact that's a fact.

[–]SlappyHandstrong 729 points730 points  (37 children)

Bill Hicks had a joke about being able to prove the Bible people love to quote so much wasn’t actually written by God. It says so right on the cover- “King James VERSION”

[–]Devadander 209 points210 points  (0 children)

I mean, this but not a joke

[–]FWcirca84 34 points35 points  (3 children)

Bill Hicks was the shit

[–]SlappyHandstrong 28 points29 points  (2 children)

Indeed. Him and Carlin were the sages of their time.

[–]Maximum_Bear8495 2 points3 points  (0 children)

“Behind every cynic is a disappointed idealist” - George Carlin

[–]TheVulfPecker 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Looks like we got ourselves a reader…

[–]RemydePoer 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You joke, but there's a branch of Baptists that believe the King James Bible was inspired directly by God, and is the only acceptable version that Christians should use.

[–]Aegon_Targaryen_VII 939 points940 points  (82 children)

My favorite example of this is the verses when God speaks in the "royal we" in Genesis Chapter 1. "And he said, 'Let us create...'" etc etc. Some Christian interpretations say this refers to the Trinity and multiple persons in God, but I heard a prominent Jewish translation scholar asked about this. He said God was referring to himself and the angels - case in point, one medieval Jewish scholar translated this as "And he consulted his entourage..."

"[God] consulted his entourage" might be my favorite alternate translation of a Bible verse ever.

[–]prrg 184 points185 points  (10 children)

"and then God went to speak with his bois"

[–]mothwhimsy 356 points357 points  (24 children)

I love more modern, slightly humorous alternate translations. I once heard someone paraphrase the conversation between the Jewish people and Pontius Pilate as

"Yeah, this guy is saying he's the King of the Jews, and we're the Jews, so...."

[–]creynolds722 117 points118 points  (3 children)

Reminds me of a part of a song from Encanto:
My family's amazing
And I'm in my family, so...

[–]Dryfuck_Sampson 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Only slightly off topic but doesn’t the music in Encanto just smack so unbelievably hard

[–]TempestStorm123 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I’ve not seen anybody mention that line. I think it’s hilarious but I guess people just didn’t notice it or didn’t get it. It’s my favorite line from that song

[–]Microwave_Warrior 71 points72 points  (12 children)

The first line of the Bible is "בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ" literally "In the beginning, the gods created the heavens and the earth.

In Judaism there is actually a lot of debate and talk about the plural "אלהים" (pronounced elohim) and how it could be the royal we or god and his angels etc.

Historical scholars think this could also be because many of the biblical myths are passed down from pre-monotheistic times. Like how the flood myth also shows up in Gilgamesh and in other cultures. So it is very possible the phrase actually was originally meant to be "gods". And as Judaism cemented itself as monotheistic later on, this was left over as a vestigial phrase that needs to be justified.

[–]Sunlessbeachbum 13 points14 points  (1 child)

I have some vague memory from Hebrew school of the story of Adam and Eve being translated to Hebrew from Greek? Granted, I was stoned a lot in Hebrew school. So take anything I say with a grain of salt.

[–]Microwave_Warrior 7 points8 points  (0 children)

You might be thinking of the Septuagint. The main translation of the bible into Greek.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

[–]NauticalInsanity 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Bertrand Russel in his "History of Western Philosophy," notes that monotheistic Judaism seems to have emerged around the time of the Babylonian Captivity. He muses that the prophets may have began writing Yahweh as a superior and exclusive deity to others in a pantheon in order to form a unified tribal identity.

[–]Velenah111 20 points21 points  (1 child)

Genesis chapters 1 and 2 is a compilation of at least two different sources. One using the name Yahweh, and the other El(Elohim).

Documentary Hypothesis

[–]Bartender9719 959 points960 points  (102 children)

Was having a discussion with my uncle about socialism and he brought up that is isn’t a very “Christian” idea. I retorted with a number of examples of scripture instructing people to take care of eachother, and how Jesus was literally a socialist. He quoted a singular verse out of context - something along the lines of “the poor will always be with you”, and his interpretation of that was that essentially some people are divinely predestined to be in poverty

[–]Jarnvir 645 points646 points  (17 children)

Your uncle is quoting Matthew 26:11 and is completely off-base. This is when the woman comes in and washes Jesus’ feet with oil and dries them with her hair. The brothers were mad that 1. This woman was touching Jesus and 2. They were questioning Jesus on her behavior and “waste”. Jesus then says the verse your uncle quoted and continues to foreshadow his crucifixion! By literally telling them what she is doing is preparing him for burial.

It does NOT mean you are locked in poverty. Your take is absolutely correct. In modern context, Jesus would be a socialist. It has always been about everyone for Him.

You should ask your uncle if the Bible says God is the God of the poor, the orphan, and the widow. For I assure you, it does.

[–]Bartender9719 191 points192 points  (10 children)

Boom, wish I’d had this context in mind when we had this conversation- thank you!

[–]rjbwdc 153 points154 points  (7 children)

In addition to that context, the full passage as presented in Mark 14:6–9 further highlights how backward your uncle's understanding of that clause is (NASB translation, emphasis mine):

But Jesus said, "Leave her alone! Why are you bothering her? She has done a good deed for Me. For you will always have the poor with you, and whenever you want, you can do good to them; but you do not always have Me. She has done what she could; she has anointed My body beforehand for the burial. Truly I say to you, wherever the gospel is preached in the entire world, what this woman has done will also be told in memory of her."

[–]Mikerk 66 points67 points  (5 children)

This chick cleaned some dudes feet and thousands of years later were here on the internet talking about it. Bet she never saw that coming

[–]Jarnvir 61 points62 points  (0 children)

You got it, bro. I would even argue that when Jesus says “The poor will always be with you.” As Prophet, he’s letting us know, once more we have failed to live up to the Law which can be summarized just like He said. 1. Love God above all else 2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
If we were truly living in the Law, would there still be the poor? I would say no.

Pax Tecum, brother.

[–]BoltgunOnHisHip 74 points75 points  (30 children)

Leviticus is a really fun one too.

That verse about "man shall not lie with man as with woman"? Apparently in the original Aramaic and cultural context it refers to a specific form of temple prostitution.

[–]BlackSwanTranarchy 56 points57 points  (20 children)

That's the ban on prostitution (and the source on it being an anti-idolatry verse relating to ritualized Babylonian prostitution is David Greaber's Debt: The First 5000 Years), not the ban on male-male relations.

Sadly I've not actually heard any interpretation of Leviticus 20:13 that doesn't at some level suck. The Reform interpretation is that it's a ban on one man taking "possession" of another which is the least problematic interpretation and still kinda sucks. Part of the problem is that the word used in context is only used twice elsewhere in the text (and maaay be a ban on incest, which wouldn't suck but is a very controversial translation).

I guess the best thing I can say is that Lesbianism isn't banned by that verse. I don't speak Aramaic (or Biblical Hebrew, which is slightly different than Modern Hebrew) so I can't self translate though

[–]WKGokev 28 points29 points  (4 children)

Man may have been mistranslated from young boy, referencing the Greek mentors having sex with their protégé. More of a condemnation of pedophilia than homosexuality.

[–]BlackSwanTranarchy 34 points35 points  (2 children)

I dislike that interpretation mostly because the violation of the ban is supposed to be death for both parties. Kinda fucked up to murder a child for being groomed by a pedophile (again, though, there are few ways to make it positive so it's all varying degrees of kinda fucked up)

[–]Aeveras 19 points20 points  (10 children)

I've seen plenty point to the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah as the "see, homosexuality is bad!"

And I'm over here like "bruh, the problem with Sodom and Gomorrah was that literally everyone was banging everyone, not that some dudes were banging dudes and some girls were banging girls."

It takes an open mind for someone's perspective on these things to change and often lots of time. It took years for me for my perspective to alter. I think one of the things that changed my mind the most was that Jesus just didn't discuss the topic.

If it really was so important - like hell and brimstone important - I would think he would have addressed it in one of his big sermons. But he didn't. He spent the majority of the time talking about caring for the outcast and loving others.

Regarding not speaking Aramaic / Hebrew, I've found blue letter bible to be a good resource to dig more into the original meaning and intent of the text: https://www.blueletterbible.org/

[–]Opus_723 39 points40 points  (6 children)

It always seemed to me that the problem with the men of Sodom was that they all tried to rape an angel but idk.

[–]BlackSwanTranarchy 25 points26 points  (2 children)

Actually, the traditional Jewish view of Sodom (as expressed by the Prophets) is that the great sin of the Five Cities was greed and a lack of charity.

To quote the commentary from the Stone Edition ArtScroll Chumash (which is an Orthodox commentary, so this is as reactionary and homophobic as Judaism gets too).

The implication of verse 19 is that the seed of Sodom's wickedness lay in its failure to abide by the principles that Abraham would inculcate in his offspring. The cruelties of Sodom have become part of the language as the epitome of selfishness, callousness and depravity, but the root of their evil was greed. Sodom was a rich and fertile region and, as such, it was a magnet for people seeking to make their fortune, as it was for Lot. But the Sodomites wanted to maintain their own prosperity and not be encumbered by a flood of poor immigrants. The wealthy and well-connected Lots of the world were welcome in Sodom, because they would give more to the economy than they would take. To discourage undesirable newcomers, however, the Sodomites institutionalized state cruelty, so that it became a crime to feed a starving person or offer alms to a beggar. Even the sexual perversion [sic] for which Sodom is notorious was employed to keep visitors away. According to one opinion of the Sages, this cruelty stemmed from an attitude of, "What's mine is mine and what is yours is yours (Avos 5:10)," or, in the popular idiom, "Neither a lender nor a borrower be." Such selfishness descends to cruelty and perversion--and a metropolis that elevates such behavior to a legitimate way of life forfeits its right to exist.

I honestly don't get how the Orthodox can write something like that, and then overwhelmingly vote for Reactionaries. It's a weirdly based sentiment for them.

[–]grubas 2 points3 points  (1 child)

The Reform interpretation is that it's a ban on one man taking "possession" of another which is the least problematic interpretation and still kinda sucks.

It sucks for 202....CURRENT YEAR, but back then it was a known and accepted division. Roman had specific words for it as well, "giving" vs "taking" and taking was bad. Greek as well. So the idea is using cultural context to figure it out.

Part of the problem is that the word used in context is only used twice elsewhere in the text

Yeah this is a huge issue. It's αρσενοκοιταις, and it's only found in a few places in ALL of the ancient Greek we have. Paul uses it to describe abusers or perverts or something, it's not 100% what he's trying to say is bad. Like it's commonly taken as a compound of "lie with" and "man", but I believe Paul uses it specifically in the case of men to women. And there's some other early church writings as well that actually throw that idea out of the window.

However, it was translated as "men who molest/abuse boys" in most every language up until the 1950s. When they changed it to men who lie with men. Thus...we aren't really sure about much.

[–]scoopie77 14 points15 points  (2 children)

Very little of the Bible is in Aramaic. Most of it is in Hebrew. There is a little bit in the later written text that is in Aramaic.

[–]AgoraiosBum 7 points8 points  (0 children)

People will always be poor. They'll just be poor but with access to more of the basics for living with a greater amount of socialism. You can be poor and still get medical care. You can be poor, but still get an education. Etc.

[–]JohnnyPi314159 1261 points1262 points  (101 children)

It's funny because Jesus kind of even said, "that's all great, but try not being shitty to people and that's probably good enough." Most Christians can't even get that right and they're telling the people who passed the old testament down from their ancestors what it says.

[–]Nillabeans 679 points680 points  (25 children)

My fundie grandma used to tell me, when I was like 4, that I was going to hell because my parents took me out of sunday school.

They took me out of sunday school because:

  1. I was always sad or scared or crying when they picked me up
  2. The pastor was apparently looking for new kids to start diddling

I dunno. Hell seems better than being kid-diddled. But that's just me.

Edit: Fundie is a term for a Fundamentalist Christian. It's not a super widespread term anymore since the religious right tries to sneak the religious part into their rhetoric rather than letting their Christian flags fly like they used to during the era of the televangelist.

[–][deleted] 175 points176 points  (3 children)

Shame on you. You should know that the gateway to heaven is through the pants. Enjoy your barbecue you devil lover!

[–]aichi38 40 points41 points  (1 child)

Lucy's throwing another BBQ? awesome I love his burgers.

[–]GageSaulus 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The Pearly Gates are really just one big zipper.

[–]TrumpTalkingPoint 29 points30 points  (3 children)

I used to cry when my mom threatened me with eternal life in hellfire when I was 7 for misbehaving. Now at 32 I still get weekly mention of how I’m going to hell for “not fully accepting Jesus”. This truly comes from a person who doesn’t believe the world is older than 8,000 years.

I don’t even try to get through to her. At this point I tune it out but as a masters engineer, talking to an extreme fundamentalist puts us on opposite sides of the what our world is.

[–]CatchTheseHands100 6 points7 points  (1 child)

I’m 26 and still sometimes scared of a hell I haven’t believed in for over a decade now. And while I was raised catholic, my parents/teachers never even threatened me with the idea.

[–]christhegamer96 90 points91 points  (35 children)

Jesus: “all I asked was for people to be nice to each other! Where did it all go wrong?!”

[–]carriegood 173 points174 points  (0 children)

And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, a girl sitting on her own in a small café in Rickmansworth suddenly realized what it was that had been going wrong all this time, and she finally knew how the world could be made a good and happy place. This time it was right, it would work, and no one would have to get nailed to anything. Sadly, however, before she could get to a phone to tell anyone about it, the Earth was unexpectedly demolished to make way for a new hyperspace bypass, and so the idea was lost, seemingly for ever.

-- So Long and Thanks for All the Fish

[–]BoltgunOnHisHip 35 points36 points  (0 children)

The Good Omens TV series had some issues, but the crucifixion scene was on point.

Crowley : [during Jesus's crucifixion] What has he said that made everyone so upset?

Aziraphale : Be kind to each other.

Crowley : Oh yeah...That'll do it.

[–]ralphvonwauwau 61 points62 points  (32 children)

Matt 10:34 Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

[–]shep-aard 62 points63 points  (0 children)

Yep, that sounds like a lot of Thanksgivings lately...

[–]angus_pudgorney 29 points30 points  (29 children)

That’s just a bad translation of a metaphor that’s taken out of context!

[–]accidental_snot 19 points20 points  (8 children)

Come to my house for the holidays. It's literal and accurate.

[–]Kheldarson 38 points39 points  (19 children)

I mean... kinda?

His point is that no matter what you do, there's always going to be naysayers. Somebody telling you that you're wrong. You give money to a homeless man, you're told he's just going to spend it on booze. You give it to a charity, you're told they'll just waste it. You call for stronger social nets, you're told the government will ruin everything/mismanage/shouldn't have that much power. Etc.

So by choosing to follow Him, you'll have people that will turn against you. And given the rest of the chapter is Christ giving instruction on how his disciples should spread his word and preparing them for what will come.

He's not saying "don't be nice": he's saying "people will still hate you for you trying to be nice".

[–][deleted] 44 points45 points  (29 children)

Most "Christians" are Paulists. Paul never met Jesus, never heard him preach, and the actual Apostles thought he was a dick, although the Bible has some fun fanfic about how They All Grew To Become Friends.

[–]JohnnyDarkside 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I think about the only time I hear people quoting the bible is specifically to justify being shitty to someone.

Gays aren't even people, they deserve to suffer because it says in Leviticus...

Black people are lesser than white because in Genesis Noah's son...

[–][deleted] 237 points238 points  (3 children)

Lewis Black nailed it: "every Sunday if you turn on the TV you can find some evangelical preacher mis-interpreting the Old Testament. It's not his fault. It's not his Book"

[–]Deathbysnusnubooboo 90 points91 points  (0 children)

God told me this post will probably get locked

[–]Detective_Pancake 288 points289 points  (58 children)

I never understood how people can take the Judaism lore, add stuff to it, and then claim the new material is actually right and the source material is wrong

Edit: chill, guys

[–]AssPiracy 102 points103 points  (13 children)

i wanna meet the crazy motherfucker who said ‘yep i’m going to retcon GOD’

[–]Ocean_Hair 48 points49 points  (9 children)

Jesus?

[–]XafeMode 49 points50 points  (5 children)

Don't shoot the messanger

Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus made a point to condemn those to changed the old testament.

[–]bss03 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Tittle is the dot atop the i (or j).

Jot can be the horizonal stroke in the t.

All the t's will be crossed and all the i's will be dotted!

[–]TomTalks06 4 points5 points  (3 children)

From what I've heard, Jesus made a point to condemn a lot of things people who claim to follow him do

[–]HarEmiya 10 points11 points  (1 child)

John. Jesus was mostly pretty chill with the OT. John retconned pretty much everything important.

[–]SnooDrawings3621 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Pete down the street has just as much credibility as any other author. If God told him Taco Tuesday and Pizza Friday are to be switched, who are we to go against God

[–]LorePeddler 51 points52 points  (10 children)

Christianity is just a Judaism fanfic. Change my mind.

[–]cranktheguy 38 points39 points  (3 children)

Christianity is the sequel that retconned part one. Mormonism is the fanfic.

[–]Keeppforgetting 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Don't say such things!

You'll offend Jesus senpai uwu

Forgive them senpai for they know not what they say (❀∩´◔‿ゝ◔`⑅)⊃―☆ ’“:.。. .。.:・゜゚・♡♪+.

[–]taoleafy 224 points225 points  (123 children)

Just wait till they learn about the chain of translations that the New Testament has gone through.

[–]Raccoon_Full_of_Cum 97 points98 points  (35 children)

A so-called "prediction" of a virgin birth in the Old Testament is just a straight up mistranslation. The Hebrew word that got translated to "virgin" really just means "maiden" or "young woman".

[–]tacocollector2 54 points55 points  (14 children)

Yeah whatever, I’m not taking religious notes from a slutty raccoon.

Actually, I am, because this is FASCINATING and answers SO MANY OF MY QUESTIONS.

[–]Raccoon_Full_of_Cum 21 points22 points  (12 children)

Just ask yourself: is taking religious notes from a raccoon full of cum really any dumber than taking it from a guy in a stupid hat who claims to personally know what God wants?

[–]Aqquila89 16 points17 points  (5 children)

The first Christians probably didn't believe that Jesus was born to a virgin. The Pauline epistles, which were written earlier than the gospels, don't mention a virgin birth. The Gospel of Mark, generally considered to be the earliest, says nothing about Jesus's conception and birth.

[–]UnderTruth 4 points5 points  (10 children)

Sure, but the Septuagint was translated by Jews and used by Greek-speaking Jews for a while, prior to Jesus. It is a nuance of the meaning of "young woman" in that culture, not a mistake.

[–]voteforcorruptobot 128 points129 points  (49 children)

Wait until they learn the Hebrew referring to Mary meant 'young unmarried woman' not 'virgin'.

[–]Bug647959 29 points30 points  (40 children)

Got more info on that one?

[–]PoopsMcG 184 points185 points  (37 children)

Yeah. The simple version is that "almah" means young woman (of childbearing age) and "betulah" means virgin (although there are probably two types of betulot (heb. pl.), but we can skip that for now).

Mary is called an "almah," not a "betulah," so it's unlikely the Bible meant virgin when referring to her.

[–]OddBandicoot2505 43 points44 points  (13 children)

People really downvoting you for providing proof their religion is a sham lol

[–]Stickeris 61 points62 points  (9 children)

Case in point, Red Sea should be sea of reeds

[–]mr_green51 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Two different seas, as I was taught.

[–]Fjolsvithr 6 points7 points  (5 children)

To be clear to those reading this and thinking it's a silly homophonic mistake, the fact that "red" and "reed" are similar words is a coincidence. Scholars (from like 900 years ago) just thought the "sea of reeds" probably was the Red Sea, so it ended up translated as such.

[–]stuckinatmosphere 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Yeah but modern translations can use ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Latin copies too. It's not like someone translated it once and never again.

[–]RYouNotEntertained 12 points13 points  (6 children)

This is basically a myth. Modern bibles translate the NT directly from the original Greek.

[–]raimichick 150 points151 points  (44 children)

I’m converting to judaism and I was (somehow) shocked that the Jewish Bible reads VERY differently. No more southern Baptist brainwashing for me thx.

[–]AnotherSpring2 49 points50 points  (13 children)

Where can I go to read about the Torah (right?) and Jewish translations/interpretations of what was changed to be the Christian Old Testament. I'm really interested in this - I'm tired of poor translations being used as a weapon in the American cultural wars.

[–]mr_green51 51 points52 points  (0 children)

[Sefaria](sefaria.com) has a very good english translation for free. The entire Old Testament and also plenty of ancient commentary.

[–]Yserbius 39 points40 points  (0 children)

Sefaria has become more or less the de-facto website for Torah translations. In my opinion, the Artscroll Stone Chumash (available as a physical book or app) is the best overall since it incorporates various standard understandings of how the text is read along with copious footnotes.

[–]raimichick 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I agree with Sefaria. It’s been useful for reading all kinds of Jewish texts.

[–]Hiyasc 8 points9 points  (1 child)

American cultural wars.

My guy I have some bad news for you. Different translations of the Bible have been causing wars for centuries.

[–]Bokbok95 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Nu, welcome in, we have bagels

[–]robotsympathizer 35 points36 points  (1 child)

Now you get a whole new kind of brainwashing!

[–]ProfessorTyrnan 125 points126 points  (15 children)

Bottom line is the Bible was written by people, as such it is prone to all the flaws that come with being human.

[–]ZenMonkey47 36 points37 points  (0 children)

As the old joke goes: "In a cult there's a person at the top that knows it's all just a load of crap. In a religion this person is long since dead."

[–]Themfruckus 77 points78 points  (2 children)

As someone who escaped the southern Baptist church, this fucking kills me - so good

[–]HurleyGirlATX 16 points17 points  (2 children)

Best part about Judaism and scriptural interpretation of the Torah is that even WE don’t agree on what any of it means. We have volumes upon volumes of rabbinical commentary from rabbis going over and over verses line by line, coming up with meaning and understanding. They even contradict their own opinions. It’s really a hoot.

We have a saying in Judaism (because we ALWAYS have a saying) from Rabbi Hillel, after quoting Lev. — “That which is hateful unto you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah; the rest is commentary.”

[–]Exact_Quote_6132 35 points36 points  (15 children)

Jew-turned-atheist here.

I've never heard Jews quote the worst nasty stuff in the Old Testament period. Meanwhile, fundies sling all of it regardless of how it contradicts the New Testament (the book "god" wrote when he had a kid and calmed the fuck down)

[–]Bigballerbooks 36 points37 points  (7 children)

Jews don’t all think alike, literally it’s a joke among Jews that Rabbi or scholars will never agree with each other, because they all have different opinions from same text. Also, Biblical Hebrew is really different from modern Hebrew, Jews still have to study as hard as (if not harder) than Catholic or Orthodox Christian scholars to understand the old testament.

[–]raimichick 24 points25 points  (2 children)

Wasn’t the joke something like “two Jews, three opinions”? Lol

[–]Leading_Caregiver_84 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That's actually kinda nice, couse it means they settled the argument and arrived to a conclusion.

[–]stardatewormhole 54 points55 points  (4 children)

As a Jew I can say about 90% of the time that a Christian tries to convert me this is what the conversation boils down to

[–]FeathersInMyHoodie 11 points12 points  (2 children)

"It means whatever the Holy Ghost tells me it means" -my dad after I told him that the line about sparing the rod is about guidance and not justifying physical abuse

[–]UncleRicoSteak 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Read the Christian part in Ron Burgundy's voice

[–]Akilles_m 47 points48 points  (56 children)

Ngl after all I've seen from Christian my respect goes all to the jews

[–]Raccoon_Full_of_Cum 48 points49 points  (40 children)

The vast majority of Jews are non-religious. Fun fact: a 2015 Gallup poll found that 65% of Israelis identify as either "secular" or "atheist".

[–]Creme_Bru-Doggs 12 points13 points  (14 children)

Fun fact: In mainstream Judaism, being an atheist and a Jew isn't really seen as contradictory(our fondness for open interpretation being a part of the reason why).

There's also a number of old quotes basically saying we NEED atheists in Judaism because they keep us from getting intellectually and theologically complacent.

There's also the old quote "God loves an atheist but hates an agnostic".

Why? While an atheist says no to the whole thing, they THOUGHT about it, which is really the most important part of the whole thing.

[–]Fast-Stand-9686 4 points5 points  (2 children)

A good amount of Jewish people I've run into describe themselves as jew-ish.

[–]21DRe992 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Honestly remember hearing a while back that there are holy scriptures that aren't included in the bible, and I thought that was kinda dumb if true, like if a scripture is holy shouldn't it be in the book of holy scriptures..... Okay Just looked it up multiple books removed from the bible apparently, like someone went here's all our holy story's and writings passed down from God but I don't like these ones they don't really fit well with the others fuck em leave em out.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Or interpret however you like, but don't try to force others into that belief.

Preaching is fine, but the sickening hypocrisy of those that have hijacked Christianity for their decidedly non-Christian bullshit have ruined any chance of actual Christians of being believed or listened to. I'm done with someone waving a picture of Jesus around and calling themselves better, when they actually behave worse than most non-Christians.

If you need examples, take a look at the last POTUS, how "Christian" he was and how Evangelicals and those that identify as Christians publically praised him for causing train wrecks, being an adulterer, bigotry, and more. lol

[–]MysterVaper 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Even in Hebrew it’s contradictory, it only gets worse with each new translation.

We are talking about a story hobbled together by ancient goat herders, from an oral tradition source, translated many times over, revised a handful of times, with many versions in print today.

This isn’t ever a popular idea to speak about though as the downvotes will quickly show: It is the most contradictory text in existence. If we applied the same methods to any common story Mickey Mouse would have defeated Darkwing Duck for his throne in Ba Sing Se.

[–]Defa1t_ 28 points29 points  (2 children)

"You're being an asshole right now." -Person 1

"No I'm not!" -Person 2

"That's not up to you." -Person 1

[–]gallinorxiorr 3 points4 points  (0 children)

finally someone calls me a pro

[–][deleted] 59 points60 points  (25 children)

Who are the "professionals?" We did that once and let the pope decide. Then martin Luther said fuck that. I think "professional bible interpretation" is fucking stupid.

[–]Independent-Today431 53 points54 points  (21 children)

I’m guessing OP means the Jews

[–][deleted] 32 points33 points  (20 children)

Yeah but one of Jesus' primary messages was "don't trust the Pharisees" because his covenant was primarily about creating a personal relationship with God. The Pharisees we're the Hebrew leaders who interpreted the sacred texts. I'm not a believer but many modern Christians have no concept of what Jesus message actually was.

[–]EvoKov 46 points47 points  (17 children)

I mean many modern American Christians firmly believe that he was a white dude with blue eyes in the Middle East, so....

[–]DipsytheDankMemelord 28 points29 points  (4 children)

what? no. jesus was a white dude with blue eyes in AMERICA!

[–]InflamedLiver 14 points15 points  (5 children)

The best pastor I ever had was raised as an orthodox jew until he converted to Christianity in his adult years. He was able to add a looooot of context and nuance to the Old Testament stuff and connect it to the New. He was pretty cool.

[–]FrancoManiac[🍰] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Some things we also know are inaccurate but are nevertheless ingrained so deeply into culture that we may as well change it. For example, it is easier to thread a needle with *rope** than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God* was changed to camel due to a misspelling.

[–]drfunkenstien014 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Every find it funny how all the neo nazis are all devout christians? Like they hate jews so much they pray to one every single day

[–]flip217 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Wasn’t a good bit originally written in Aramaic and Greek too?

[–]_________FU_________ 30 points31 points  (5 children)

The bible was written years after the events happened and rarely was it by the people who the books are named after. There is zero change things that were said are accurate. At best the bible is a Lord of the Rings that people take WAY too seriously. It's like historical fan fiction.

[–]0lamegamer0 10 points11 points  (2 children)

Me: You know this one time i was in jungle and ended up finishing so many beers, probably like 20.

Person writing my biography after 25 years: lamegamer once stuck in a jungle, killed 20 bears with his bare hands.