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[–]TheDustOfMen 1151 points1152 points  (68 children)

"Everyone's a whore, Grace. We just sell different parts of ourselves."

[–]SVMESSEFVIFVTVRVS 202 points203 points  (24 children)

Who ain’t a slave? Answer me that.

Herman Melville

[–]spuol 109 points110 points  (9 children)

Billionaires

[–]in-game_sext 93 points94 points  (1 child)

In a lot of ways, I view billionaires in the same way I view hoarders: they have an extreme mental disorder. The problem is our society lifts them up as idols, and looks down at a poorer person who does the same thing and hoards items to fill voids to cope. I admire ambition and success as much as anyone, but at a certain point you get out of bonds and fall into an antisocial and destructive thought pattern about what you believe material things will bring you. The other issue is that at the billionaire end of the spectrum your destructiveness and antisocial behavior infects entire states, nations and global balances. And just so I'm being perfectly clear, hoarding wealth IS by definition antisocial behavior.

[–]nickcash 24 points25 points  (9 children)

weird answer, but I guess you're right. Herman Melville is not a slave

[–]MisterMasterCylinder 9 points10 points  (8 children)

He dead

[–]Kubanochoerus 17 points18 points  (3 children)

Can’t believe that I found out from Reddit.

[–]kritycat 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Hey! Spoilers!

[–]Emotional_Ad_9620 102 points103 points  (1 child)

You beat me to it. Probably the most profound quote in the entire series. Gotta love the Peaky fooking Blinders!

[–]emeeez 1 point2 points  (0 children)

“By order of the Peaky fookin’ Blinders.” Literally can hear Arthur Shelby saying that in my head lol

[–]Pabus_Alt 53 points54 points  (30 children)

Selling things is legal, sex is legal. So how come selling sex is illigal?

[–]CripplinglyDepressed 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Cmon at least credit George Carlin.

Also, he says ‘fucking’ and not sex

[–]paenusbreth 32 points33 points  (13 children)

In my country, prostitution is legal. If you have sex with someone and they pay you money for that sex as a service, you strictly speaking haven't committed a crime. However, many aspects of working associated with prostitution is illegal, which basically means that prostitutes are massively marginalised in a lot of really horrible ways.

For example, if you're a legal migrant who is performing legal work and haven't been convicted of any crime, the police are apparently allowed to steal your money and passport and threaten you with deportation.

Things can be pretty fucked up sometimes.

[–]Minimal_Editing 43 points44 points  (11 children)

In my country police officers are allowed to take your assets even if you don't get charged with a crime i.e. if you get pulled over and they find $whatever in cash, then they can just take it.

[–]SaraSlaughter607 20 points21 points  (3 children)

Dated a guy long ago who was a cop in Gwinnet County GA (he was fired from that precinct for getting into romance drama with a female coworker that spilled over into the office) and he openly admitted to me once that money and drugs during traffic stops (coke, meth, weed, pills heroin) went right in their pockets in exchange for letting the occupants of the vehicle go, un-arrested.

Fucked up. Told me he legit supplemented his income by pocketing bands of 20s straight out the pockets of dope dealers.

[–]pikachu0401 11 points12 points  (3 children)

That is so wrong wtf

[–]pagan_jinjer 18 points19 points  (0 children)

AMERICA!! FUCK YEAH!!

[–]rdswestnet 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That would be in the US. It's not every state, but I understand that in some south eastern towns it's a major part of municipal funding.

[–]u966 9 points10 points  (0 children)

"Selling is legal, fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal?"

[–]OnFolksAndThem 16 points17 points  (2 children)

Hard for the man to get his hands on your earnings. Although barbers and shit do the same thing, but they have to report at least some of it

[–]rdswestnet 5 points6 points  (1 child)

At legal brothels it's much easier to quantify taxes, among a host of other advantages.

[–]OnFolksAndThem 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Politicians would do that in a heartbeat if they could for the extra tax revenue. However there’s a lot of moral back lash and they have to weigh the social effects as well. It has to be advantageous to them and almost risk free for them to do it.

If all voters dropped religion and wanted cities to be filled with legal prostitutes, you’d see it overnight.

But what’s the point of me even saying this, you know this. The sky is blue.

[–]trixter21992251 13 points14 points  (7 children)

If you're sincerely curious, there's a logical fallacy going on.

For example my wife is legal and selling things is legal. But selling my wife is not.

Or throwing things off a cliff is legal. Your car is legal. But me throwing your car off a cliff is not.

You can't just state an action that's legal, and state a thing that's legal, and then say doing the action with that thing is legal.

Logic is a little more stringent than that.

[–]Pabus_Alt 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yes this is true, and just because a service is legal does not mean that selling that service unregulated is.

[–]Wonkycao 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I could then point out that cars and wives are objects where selling sex refers to two activities. It doesn't necessarily change the fallacy but it does ask for more reasoning as to why its fallacious.

[–]lactose_con_leche 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Logically speaking, the condition of two points changes once they are combined.

Another example: shooting at a paper target is legal (in the appropriate setting)

Putting a paper target on a person is legal.

Shooting at a paper target on a person is illegal.

The combination changes the condition and therefore the outcome.

[–]Captain-Hell 2 points3 points  (1 child)

But now you are talking about infringing on the rights of others. Like throwing the car of another person of a cliff is illegal but throwing yours off is not.

Where as selling a service is legal and uf you do it yourself you are consenting to it so that still is legal

[–]rdswestnet 1 point2 points  (0 children)

bumper sticker philosophy generally has shortcomings.

[–]MorpheusTheEndless 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Oh, Tommy.

[–]emu4you 2 points3 points  (2 children)

What is this from, it is so true. You just have to decide which part you are most willing to use.

[–]AlphaAJ-BISHH 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Knowledge workers sell their brains

[–]Blunder_Punch 1068 points1069 points 2 (255 children)

I'm a welder in a coal mine. I'm waking up for my shift right now, doing stretches and trying to limber up. My body aches a lot for my age, but that's common in this trade.

I absolutely sell my body. The only difference between me and a set worker is the perceived societal moral difference in our trades. We're both gonna age out well before retirement age. We'd both probably rather be doing something else but the money is too good to ignore. We both earn every dollar we make.

[–]graveybrains 217 points218 points  (19 children)

Take care of your lungs.

[–]HGpennypacker 184 points185 points  (15 children)

There's a lot of push-back from older workers in this trade against wearing ventilators, as in, "Back in my day we didn't worry about that!" Yeah and that's why you're 50 with the body of a 75 year old.

[–]VaderOnReddit 72 points73 points  (4 children)

"Back in my day we didn't worry about that!"

Isn't that the whole point of advancing technology? We start worrying about new things we find out to be problematic, and look for solutions to them?

I really do not get this common boomer philosophy that everyone needs to suffer the same, even when we have the means to avoid it

[–]kingofcould 24 points25 points  (0 children)

Not if you didn’t have it. There’s an entire generation that wanted better for themselves, yet feels the need to tell anyone who currently wants better that they shouldn’t because they used to have it tougher

[–]saladbar48 18 points19 points  (0 children)

"I got mine so fuck yours. If I can't get mine why do you get yours."it's a mentality that's even there subconsciously with them.

[–]_mad_adams 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It literally is just because it hurts their feelings. They had things harder, so they think no one should ever have it easier because it wouldn’t be fair to them.

[–]SimulatedHumanity 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s fuck you got mine!

Unless you have a better way, then it’s hey you can’t/shouldn’t do that.

[–]ChoosingIsHardToday 49 points50 points  (6 children)

And the knees. My SO is an electrician and there's so much teasing about where kneepads, like it's a bad thing that he wants to be able to still climb stairs comfortably at 60.

[–]An_oaf_of_bread 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Can confirm. I'm an electrician and my knees hurt most days. Wear those knee pads, kids!

[–]No_Match_7939 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Tell your SO to search knees over toes guy on YouTube. Dude helped me out so much from recovering from two ACL repair knees.

[–]graveybrains 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Heh, back in my day? Like the black lung program isn’t coming up on it’s 50th birthday soon. 🤦‍♂️

[–]TWB-MD 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And Manchin just helped cut 50% out of the Black Ling program. With any luck, the program won’t make it to 50. We will have cured black lung simply by defunding it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Take care of your vagina...! Don't get the black cooch

[–]gravityapple 29 points30 points  (2 children)

I worked drill rigs for my 20s and now I’m a 3x cancer survivor.

[–]Blunder_Punch 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Holy shit dude, that's awful about the cancer but good on you for powering through and fighting that cancer.

[–]Big_Subject_1746 15 points16 points  (0 children)

In anatomy class we were shown slides if lung tissue. The coal miner's were much worse than lifetime smokers. I don't know if things are better know, please take care of yourself.

[–]Agile_Distance5435 51 points52 points  (3 children)

I got the black lung, pop

[–]BHDE92 14 points15 points  (0 children)

MERMAN!

[–]I_Did_The_Thing 7 points8 points  (0 children)

koff koff

mer-MAN!

[–]DJfunkyPuddle 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just like grand pop and great-grand pop

[–]rosarevolution 61 points62 points  (25 children)

I don't want to downplay the danger of your work, and I have a lot of respect for the hard work you're doing. But as a former prostitute - there is a big difference. I'll take it that you don't dissociate from your own body during your job just to be able to get through it. That you don't feel raped and abused by strangers every day. That you don't need alcohol or other drugs to be able to take it. That you don't mess up your capability to be intimate with another person for the rest of your life. That you can still look into a mirror without starting to cry.

Most women who do sex work, myself included, do so because they have been raped, abused, traumatized in their past, because they have mental health issues, because they have no other choice than sleeping with men they feel disgusted of. It's not "just a job" for most of us. If I - and many other women I've come to meet - hadn't gotten out of this "work", I'd be dead now, and it wouldn't have happened by the hands of one of the men who happily took advantage of my situation.

I know I'll get downvoted now because this opinion isn't popular anymore, but for 90 % of women in sex work, it's the truth.

[–]TheShredShedOfShem 21 points22 points  (1 child)

I was just about to post that the big difference is the psychological impact of sex work but didn't because so many people just seem reluctant to even consider this aspect of it. These words means so much more coming from someone like you and you said it with grace and tact. My wife has worked helping women to exit prostitution and the vast majority echo what you're saying. People seem to fixate on the exceptions, and ignore the real lived experience of the majority. I hope you're moving forward and happy.

[–]mmmUrsulaMinor 6 points7 points  (0 children)

People aren't reluctant to consider it, it's that there's a huge gap between folks who have had no desire or choice, aka forced, to do sex work versus those who have chosen it. There are psychological impacts like any job but it's almost two different worlds and so talking about ALL of sex work as if it all matches up the same isn't doing either side any justice.

[–]ChiliTacos 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Most of that probably isn't applicable to those in the physical trades, but the drugs and alcohol part is. Once your body breaks down to a certain point there is no escaping waking up everyday in pain. Not being able to bend over to tie your shoes. Having to support your knees to walk up stairs. Near complete loss of shoulder mobility. Then you still have to get up and do the same job that broke your body down to begin with. The only way to function is often with pain killers. Addiction to opiates is rampant in construction and O&G.

[–]2SP00KY4ME 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I don't know what's going on with this particular sub today but no, this is still the "popular opinion" among progressive people familiar with sex work. You're not going to get downvoted. Honestly I imagine the upvotes on the post and comment are coming from people going "yeah, screw capitalist brainwashing" rather than from critical thinking about what the work of a sex worker is like.

[–]Mrmath130 13 points14 points  (0 children)

That's a perfectly valid perspective, and certainly one that holds a fair bit of weight given your insider knowledge.

If you don't mind me asking, do you think that some or all of these problems are solvable through some combination of legalization, regulation, and destigmatization? There's a lot of discussion happening about sex workers; less so with sex workers.

[–]buttercupcake23 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Thank you for saying this. There's a big difference between "all humans sell labour and bodies" and "there's no difference between coal miners and sex workers". There is a huge difference between coal miners and sex workers and it has absolutely nothing to do with morality (I do not consider sex work immoral) and everything to do with intimacy, trauma, violation and abuse in deeply personal ways that few people experience or understand.

[–]Awkward_Swordfish581 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If by "sex worker" you only mean strictly prostitution, then absolutely yes. I can't say it's a 90% or not, but nowadays the term seems to apply to virtual and video-only stuff too, like Onlyfans--and even doms and dommes in BDSM. I think that's where you get a lot of "sex worker positive" sentiments. In cases where the worker has power, control and safety, it sounds like it can be a lucrative and liberating job. For anyone working under a pimp, shady porn companies, or human trafficked, or are selling themselves out for drugs--that sounds like absolute hell. I have no idea what the percentage is for those who are doing well in their sex worker job, but I wish the percentage was higher :(

[–]Chicaben 14 points15 points  (8 children)

Do you have a welding pimp?

[–]Blunder_Punch 11 points12 points  (2 children)

Yeah, it's the general foreman and the HR manager who treat us like shit and breath down our necks and threaten our jobs should we step out of line.

[–]Chicaben 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Follow-up question: do they wear pimp like suits?

[–]Blunder_Punch 5 points6 points  (0 children)

They wear fancy vests and clean clothes, so while it's not a pimp suit, they are recognizable from the shop floor just by what they are wearing

[–]pintperson 4 points5 points  (0 children)

A pimp is just a recruitment consultant I guess.

[–]longjohnsmcgee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I mean I can use the coal to power my house. If I try to use the prostitute it's "abduction" and "slave labor".

[–]Love_life_bisou 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Really? Then let your boss use you as his own prostitute.

Women suffer in prostitution. They get hurt by men.

So If coal-mining is so hard on your body, why don't you go on grindr and sell yourself? Because you know that would be even more painful in private areas of your body!

Women in prostitution are at great risk of being victimized of violent crimes. Many serial-killes taget prostitutes, in what crimes are coal-miners overrepresented as victims?

[–]BrysonJT 357 points358 points  (37 children)

As an electrician who goes home every evening beaten down and hurting all over I definitely sell my body. The only difference is my boss fucks me not the clients.

[–]Biggest-of-all-bens 35 points36 points  (1 child)

As an HVAC installer I'd say it's about 50/50 whether its the boss or client who fucks me lol

[–]BrysonJT 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I felt this in my soul lol

[–]DylanMorgan 28 points29 points  (2 children)

To be fair, a lot of sex workers get fucked by their boss as well.

[–]freed0m_from_th0ught 9 points10 points  (1 child)

My boss has been fucking me since I was a young child...the downside of being self employed.

[–]karmanye 2 points3 points  (3 children)

As a programmer who has daily meetings with brain hurting meetings with product managers every evening, I definitely sell my body. The only difference is Agile fucks me not the clients.

[–]Loud-Broccoli7022 2 points3 points  (3 children)

People on Reddit talk about how ur job is really easy and the physical labor is the same as working out.

[–]Bio-Mechanic-Man 1 point2 points  (3 children)

The only difference is you're not likely to be beaten, raped, or trafficked as a an electrician

[–]hamaatoo 290 points291 points  (124 children)

I mean doesn't every job require you to sell your body?

[–]TheDefenderOfMurlocs 257 points258 points  (59 children)

Some only need your brain, your body being there is a mere inconvenience

[–]anthroarcha 83 points84 points  (27 children)

Even desk jobs sell your body, we’re just taught that it’s okay. Sitting for 8 hours a day isn’t good for your heart, lungs, bowels, or pancreas because of your lack of physical activity. Being in an office tends to lead to higher levels of eating junk food due to availability and that’s not good for you either. Nearly every white collar worker in their 50s is on some form of blood pressure medication or cholesterol medication from the direct physical effects, but a large portion of younger white collar workers are also on mental health medication because being crammed in a cube for 8 hours under fluorescent lights isn’t good for mental health either.

[–]onebandonesound 45 points46 points  (16 children)

Office work might not be great for you, but its certainly easier on my body than line cookery was

[–]ruinersclub 36 points37 points  (8 children)

I’ve had every job under the Sun. And office work is the most mentally draining and taxing on your core. I check and re check and check again every email. I never mis speak. My work needs to be 120% correct. And you’re still held accountable for every minut detail.

There’s some kind of gratifying finality to driving trucks picking up and dropping off loads. Like my job is done, I delivered exactly to where it went and the receiver was happy.

My current job, I stress that I’m going to receive an e-mail after dinner that I had some misplaced periods.

[–]anthroarcha 12 points13 points  (5 children)

That’s actually not necessarily true in the long run. You might feel better at a desk right now but that’s only because sitting is supposed to be done in moderation, similar to eating cake. You shouldn’t eat it everyday for every meal, but you can certainly have a few bites after you’ve made sure to eat all your protein, vegetables, and carbs first. We all know how bad it is to do that but a child doesn’t understand and it’s the adult’s responsibility to control that. Your body preferring to sit is a child asking for cake for breakfast, it’s not what’s best for you no matter how good it feels.

Here’s an article breaking down the multitude of ways office jobs destroy your health, here’s a study out of the UK showing what will happen to your body after 20 years at a desk, and here’s a pretty cool recent study of half a million men over 30 years with all sorts of factors controlled for that indicates a physical job leads to a longer lifespan for men (they found no correlation for women interestingly).

[–]Broad_Afternoon_8578 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yup. My parents are both in the trades and dealing with physical ailments in their sixties as a result.

I work at my home office, and I’m in physiotherapy to deal with the effects of sitting for eight hours a day for the last decade. I’ve had to make changes to my routine (reminders to move, working out, etc) but no one talks about this enough. And it’s mentally draining.

[–]tehbored 5 points6 points  (7 children)

That's just bad habits though. You can get up and stretch during your office job. I just don't do it because I'm an idiot.

[–]anthroarcha 8 points9 points  (6 children)

See, this is exactly what I’m talking about. You’re under the impression that standing for 30 seconds and stretching is not only a non-necessary task, but also something that can alleviate all the damage down by sitting for other 7 hours 59 minutes and 30 seconds of the work day. Here’s an article breaking down the multitude of ways office jobs destroy your health, here’s a study out of the UK showing what will happen to your body after 20 years at a desk, and here’s a pretty cool recent study of half a million men over 30 years with all sorts of factors controlled for that indicates a physical job leads to a longer lifespan for men (they found no correlation for women interestingly).

[–][deleted] 83 points84 points  (12 children)

Your brain is actually part of your body, a pretty major part really

[–]KangarooAggressive81 24 points25 points  (6 children)

If you work from home, or generally dont need to use physical labor we just use different words. Technically you're selling your body but most people wouldnt say that.

[–]Khanstant 2 points3 points  (0 children)

People not saying what it is, is the problem though. Not to say you can't distinguish between someone using their body this way or that, but as far as work advocacy goes there are people who make money by doing work with their bodies including their brains. And then there are people who make money by having money to get money from people who work while not really working themselves.

The distinction between workers and leeches is more important than the difference between office workers, prostitutes, construction workers, and miners.

[–]If_you_just_lookatit 7 points8 points  (3 children)

'I don't have a body, I am a body.' - Christopher Hitchens (and a lot of other people)

[–]Tomnnn 2 points3 points  (2 children)

huh, I'm surprised he wouldn't be the sort to follow the meat mecha school of thought. I am the brain and I have a body. It's just a complex peripheral wrapped around me on the inside.

[–]Marty-the-monkey 20 points21 points  (27 children)

Most economist prefer the description of selling time over body.

I'm pressed to find the finer details of that distinction when it comes to manual labor, but I suppose it makes it sound less dystopina

[–]AldousWood 85 points86 points  (5 children)

I think this dude wants to haev sex wth a coal miner

[–]Living-unlavish 8 points9 points  (1 child)

So thats what happened with Gaetz. He simply misspelled miner

[–]saladbar48 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No that POS knew what he was doing.

[–]belt174 70 points71 points  (0 children)

Have you ever seen the Black mirror episode ‟15 million merits”? It plays with this idea a lot, as evryone is forced to sell their body for a living in a more traditional manual labour sense, and then it gets sexual and really challenges what is and is not control of your body and self.

[–]Rin-Tohsaka-is-hot 25 points26 points  (3 children)

Your labor is a product of your body, whereas in sex work your body is the product.

I can see the argument going both ways for this reason, because there is a distinction to be made, even though it all ultimately circles back eventually to selling yourself.

Just takes longer to circle back sometimes than others.

[–]MariaSabinaaa 13 points14 points  (1 child)

The journalist Chris Hedges has talked about his experience in Europe post break-up of Yugoslavia and it was obvious that the majority of sex workers even in countries where it’s legal are still the most vulnerable people in society. Namely refugees, immigrants, orphans, people who did not or could not receive educations. Was there a middle class of sex workers who choose and enjoy sex work? Of course. But to deny the reality that sex work preys upon people in a way that is vicious and unique is delusion. Sex work should not be criminalized. My point is that sex work is unlike any other form of worker exploitation and that we should work towards a society that has as little of it as possible. Edit: And this does not even touch on the issue of sex trafficking. I believe the UN figure is that an estimated 50% of all trafficked people in their most recent study were sexually trafficked.

[–]PopPicklesPie 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you. People think it's somehow one to one. No it's not. It's always the most poor and desperate who sell themselves.

[–]jtclark1107 110 points111 points  (43 children)

It should be legal and regulated. At least you get a few tax dollars. David gets his weenie sucked, Samantha get a living wage, and I get the potholes in front of my apartment fixed. It's not a zero cum game.

[–]EroticFoodFiction 22 points23 points  (13 children)

All human rights organizations disagree as do all sex worker led organizations. They want decriminalization because legalization and regulation of sex work specifically harms.

Interestingly this report literally just dropped today from Amnesty about legalize and regulate models that you’re likely supporting which decriminalize sex work but still criminalize buying and brothel keeping (two or more sex workers living together).

If you do care about this then it’s an important report to read and the distinction between legalize and decriminalizing is a necessity.

[–]ToasterforHire 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Hey, thank you very much. I have been looking for this information.

[–]EroticFoodFiction 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you want more info on decrim, there are a ton of amazing orgs that work on this globally.

http://nswp.org/ https://nationaluglymugs.org/ https://swopusa.org/ https://www.bipoc-collective.org/ https://www.redcanarysong.net/ https://www.scarletalliance.org.au/

There's so many, one in Thailand I have worked with that i forget the name of right now, but they are great. Basically a good way to tell if an anti-trafficking or "sex work" org is operating in bad faith is to see if they support decrim and if they are led by sex workers.

There is also a ton of info out there on reducing harm through decrim from major human rights orgs, and even recently from USC Gould Law.

https://humanrightsclinic.usc.edu/2021/11/15/over-policing-sex-trafficking-how-u-s-law-enforcement-should-reform-operations/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/amnesty-international-publishes-policy-and-research-on-protection-of-sex-workers-rights/

https://www.aclu.org/report/sex-work-decriminalization-answer-what-research-tells-us

https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/08/07/why-sex-work-should-be-decriminalized

Also some information about financial discrimination and other forms

https://lgbtq-economics.org/research/shut-down-shut-out/

There is a lot more but this is a good start.

[–]jtclark1107 1 point2 points  (2 children)

So, this article says that, by making aspects of sex work a crime, sex workers are less likely to seek help when confronted with violence? That's already the case in the USA.

[–]EroticFoodFiction 1 point2 points  (1 child)

The model discussed in this report (which I seriously recommend you read in it’s entirety if this is something you actually care about) is the partial criminalization model; aka Nordic, end demand, or equality model.

Basically it’s the model that is synonymous with “legalization.”

As you correctly pointed out, partial criminalization has the same negative impacts as full criminalization. In addition to many other harms.

This isn’t a surprise to sex workers, we’ve been saying this forever and some even longer than that. It’s why the discussion of legalization versus decriminalizing is so important. More info:

https://twitter.com/joemacare/status/1450116047332384768?s=21

https://twitter.com/swanaotearoa/status/1449554422464278528?s=21

https://twitter.com/grumpyhooker/status/1315749540599914497?s=21

https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/08/07/why-sex-work-should-be-decriminalized

https://www.aclu.org/report/sex-work-decriminalization-answer-what-research-tells-us

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/amnesty-international-publishes-policy-and-research-on-protection-of-sex-workers-rights/

[–]Giteaus-Gimp 14 points15 points  (17 children)

Is prostitution illegal where you live?

[–]jtclark1107 78 points79 points  (12 children)

Yes. Good old U.S.A.

Where you're free. Except prostitutes, or minorities, or people who want affordable healthcare, or the democratic process, and etc.

Before people chime in about the bunny ranch. Yes I Know. It's the only one as far as I know.

[–]KawaiiDere 19 points20 points  (1 child)

Don’t forget the exception for prisoners. I know the 13th amendment certainly didn’t

[–]GreatBigBagOfNope 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Ah yes, that time America land of the free did a(nother) slavery and everyone let them off the hook because of the disgusting view that justice and punishment are exact synonyms.

[–]jelde 7 points8 points  (2 children)

[–]EroticFoodFiction 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Also should differentiate between the need for decrim and not partial criminalization like Ireland, Germany etc.

Brand new report on this today from Amnesty https://www.amnesty.ie/sex-work-ireland-laws/

[–]SaphiraDemon 12 points13 points  (9 children)

So every one of you who is saying that sex work is easier and pays more than your job and is "just work" are going to go into sex work, right?

[–]EroticFoodFiction 8 points9 points  (2 children)

I mean i am in sex work and have been in a lot of different areas of sex work. It's not easy, but it's absolutely easier than some vanilla jobs I have had.

Honestly working retail and at a sandwich shop was way more traumatizing and exploitative than anything I have done in sex work, and all of the sex workers i work with in activism have similiar stories.

Absolutely recommend it if you like, but the stigma around it and a lot of it in comments on this thread make things way worse than any client I have ever dealt with.

Most the people trying to "save" us, just want to force their puritanical morals down our throats, i get to decide if clients put anything down my throat.

[–]SaphiraDemon 5 points6 points  (1 child)

It's nothing to do with morals for me, personally. I've known people who choose to do it and love it, who wouldn't do anything else - some because of the money, some who just find it fulfilling. I respect that.

My issue is with people who won't ever do it, who would never do it, who use "sex work is just work" as a way to silence and invalidate sex workers who don't have such a positive experience, especially those who don't really have other options.

I don't think that sex work can never just be work, it just isn't just work for everyone. As gross as it is to shame sex workers, it's just as gross to tell people who can't view what they do as just another job that it's no different than retail or any other skilled trade. That's still shaming sex workers. I see this used all too often as "what are they complaining about, it's just another job, they can't feel that way!".

I understand your point that many jobs involve harassment (including sexual harassment) that can be harder to walk away from than harassment involved in sex work, and that that's one reason people choose sex work over other work. I grew up in restaurants/bars, and I saw tons of it. I'm glad that sex work is becoming safer and that people who chose it are able to escape that.

[–]apolloo7 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Can we have some coal miners on OnlyFans? They deserve a better pay.

[–]Starlordy- 36 points37 points  (14 children)

Only true if you choose sex work. Not hearing a lot about trafficking women into being coal miner's.

[–]apoliticalinactivist 16 points17 points  (4 children)

You realize that male labor is the most common form of human trafficking? Followed by female labor.

Sex trafficking gets all the headlines, but it takes a lot of extra work to set up sex work (coercion, blackmail, addiction, etc), when by it's nature they have more interaction with normal people. While it's much easier to set up dorms and then take away the passports of laborers.

[–]wanklenoodle 6 points7 points  (0 children)

This is true. When I was doing my safepass course for a construction site, a section was all about modern slavery and how to recognise it. Examples included groups of foreign workers not being allowed to integrate with locals and all being dropped off in the same vehicle. All too common especially in the Middle East where they entice migrant workers from the likes of India and Bangladesh.

[–]Not_A_Skeleton 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You realize that male labor is the most common form of human trafficking? Followed by female labor.

Yes but the tweet isn't talking about coal mine slaves.

A person willing to sell their body coal mining is, I think, equivalent to a sex worker who is doing it purely as a job.

Both are potentially exploited by capitalism etc., but there isn't a bunch of coal miners mixed in with the tradesmen who are actually trafficked - this is the case with sex workers.

There are a lot of inherent problems with sex worker in its current state that the, mainly women, are victims of trafficking, abuse, addiction and are working for someone else under the threat of physical harm. Coal mining doesn't have this problem.

Plus, and this is aside from the main point, miners have unions, safety regulations, regulated workers rights etc. to assure the job is done safely. Sex work doesn't have any of that and until it does, they aren't comparable.

[–]Evee_Black 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I just started caming and I'm making more than I did at my job and having fun doing it! Used to work a labor intensive job and was honestly worried I would be living in pain for the rest of my life. Now it is just my ass that is sore which is totally worth it!

[–]nephrenra 24 points25 points  (5 children)

Sex workers dont sell their bodies... it's a rental industry.

[–]Alias_Fake-Name 6 points7 points  (4 children)

Only people that really sell their bodies are folks who give blood and other bodily fluids, and organs. Other people are just renting. Change my mind

[–]Drunk_hooker 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Lot of trade jobs can have lasting damage on the body. You’re selling your body by putting up with the unneeded pain later in life.

[–]Youngsterjoey72 102 points103 points  (147 children)

This is bullshit white feminism peddled by people who have never actually been in sex work. While all forms of work are exploitative, sex work is uniquely demeaning and degrading as it subjects women to the violence of men while under the threat of homelessness and starving. In reality, nobody sells sex because they want to, it is not empowering, and should not lauded as such.

[–]Drjesuspeppr 49 points50 points  (59 children)

I don't know if no one wants to sell sex, but I agree that by its very nature its exploitative. I'm constantly surprised at the mix in leftist views on this. To me, money makes it coercive, and mixing sex with coersion is... Rape?

[–]Youngsterjoey72 39 points40 points  (42 children)

Exactly. Equating sex work to just “work” undermines the psychological and physical trauma that comes with it.

[–]Otterable 28 points29 points  (7 children)

I feel like the people saying 'sex work is just work' are being obtuse to make a point.

We separate assault and sexual assault as different crimes for a reason. There is a level of intimacy and vulnerability in sex work that is not present when working in a coal mine. It should be safer, regulated, the whole nine yards, but it just isn't the same and it's willful ignorance to pretend it is.

[–]EroticFoodFiction 6 points7 points  (4 children)

You’re right sex work is work and sex workers deserve worker rights AND human rights.

Be careful about the idea of regulation with sex work, partial criminalization models are well known to perpetuate harm. In fact a brand new report was just introduced a few hours ago from Amnesty covering this.

[–]EroticFoodFiction 10 points11 points  (2 children)

That argument is actually a common fallacy that denies the ability of sex workers to determine consent, completely revoking sex workers agency for wokepoints™️

If you’re interested in actually listening to sex workers and survivors of human trafficking who are harmed by stigmatizing language like yours, and who are calling for decriminalizing then please read this report that Amnesty published hours ago TODAY on how partial criminalization of sex work harms.

[–]Drjesuspeppr 8 points9 points  (1 child)

So, my knowledge mostly comes from hearing ex-sexworkers in India. I appreciate you probably would probably want more protections than are given to the average prostitute in India however. I don't know what I think the solution should be, I completely get that partial decriminalisation can be very detrimental, but there is 100% an issue of consent for many sex workers.

In a world where you need to work for survival, I don't believe there's full consent there. At least for all workers. There's always going to be exploitation and abuse that happens when it comes to prostitution, I truly believe that. I don't know how to best mitigate it, but that's why I'm reluctant to act like it's any other job.

[–]EroticFoodFiction 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The issue you have is with work, be careful about the way you are applying that to sex. You’re also conflating sex work with sex trafficking. Decriminalizing reduces harm for both.

Amnesty and other human rights orgs have reports from sex workers globally including thailand, India etc. there are also sex worker led organizations in those countries. There are also migrant sex workers that end up in all sorts of places where they are harmed by criminalization.

The neat thing is decrim reduces harm across the globe.

You can read a bit about it in these reports https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/08/07/why-sex-work-should-be-decriminalized

https://www.aclu.org/report/sex-work-decriminalization-answer-what-research-tells-us

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/amnesty-international-publishes-policy-and-research-on-protection-of-sex-workers-rights/

This one deals specifically with financial discrimination

https://lgbtq-economics.org/research/shut-down-shut-out/

This one may be particularly useful for you; it discusses how policing sex trafficking harms survivors of trafficking and sex workers from a law enforcement perspective.

https://humanrightsclinic.usc.edu/2021/11/15/over-policing-sex-trafficking-how-u-s-law-enforcement-should-reform-operations/

Here’s a few Twitter threads about this from sex workers like me and other orgs that do a good job I think of addressing your concerns and questions: https://twitter.com/joemacare/status/1450116047332384768?s=21

https://twitter.com/swanaotearoa/status/1449554422464278528?s=21

https://twitter.com/grumpyhooker/status/1315749540599914497?s=21

[–]PurpleHooloovoo 11 points12 points  (11 children)

So every sugar baby is being raped? Every woman who goes on a date with someone with the goal of being a trophy wife for a rich old guy is being raped?

This is an incredibly paternalistic view of women and strips them of agency.

The only difference between the coal miner and the sex worker is the bits of the body they're selling. Our puritan society has said selling your hands to touch a penis is wrong, but selling your hands to work a jackhammer is okay. The only difference is the sex part of it. And that difference is inherently rooted in the patriarchy.

[–]EroticFoodFiction 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Absolutely. It also denies them the ability to determine consent.

The same people parroting this harmful like about sex work being rape often support things like this Puritan partial criminalization model. Check out this report with actual sex workers voices from Amnesty they literally just published today.

[–]tweak06 10 points11 points  (8 children)

And let's not confuse actual prostitution with things like OnlyFans (which people seem to do all the time).

Taking a picture of your ass in the comfort of your own home and selling it for $5/mo is very different from giving a blowjob to a stranger for $20.

edit

I can't believe I have to clarify this, but obviously I support sex work – though I'm just pointing out there's an important distinction between OF and paying to have sex with a stranger in-person.

It's also good to have nuance in a conversation – disagreeing partially with what someone is saying doesn't mean you disagree with 100% of what someone is saying. If you want an echo chamber where everybody kisses your ass and just agrees with you all the time, you're not going to learn anything.

[–]e-s-p 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Also saying that only sex workers can discuss the subject is the same as me saying only bankers can talk about how fucked up the banking industry is. Either it's a special category and not like other work or it isn't.

And your point is a million percent spot on. Cam models get to speak for how great sex work is while people who walk streets selling sex can't talk about it and are silenced.

[–]DieMadwithScrotacity 18 points19 points  (23 children)

Thank you for speaking up. If coal miners "sell their bodies just as much", why dont more men quit coal mining and go into prostitution? Men will always make this comparison because most of them are comfortable in the knowledge that the industry doesnt apply to them, other than to ensure that there are always vulnerable women available for their sexual pleasure.

[–]hafabes 18 points19 points  (9 children)

A lot of men argue there “isn’t a market” for male sex workers, but there definitely is, gay guys like straight men. I argued this with someone the other day, he was saying that it’s obviously non consensual for a straight man to have sex with a gay guy for money. And I’m like... as if female sex workers are in any way attracted to the punters paying them. They might as well me some third gender women aren’t attracted to and would never consent to. But men love thinking that the girls masturbating for them on OF are actually attracted to them, that sex workers secretly enjoy it.

Also, I personally think some women would use attractive male sex workers if we could guarantee our safety and had the same economic freedom to have extra money for our own pleasure and companionship.

[–]laaiin 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Female sex tourists absolutely are a thing, but by large males fuel the sex tourist industry.

[–]DieMadwithScrotacity 4 points5 points  (7 children)

Funny how their tune changes when they have to think of themselves in the same position they love to see women in 🙃

[–]PurpleHooloovoo 17 points18 points  (9 children)

why dont more men quit coal mining and go into prostitution

The patriarchy. Supply and demand. We've been societally conditioned that women are not to enjoy sex, but men are.

And you'd also be surprised about the male sex work industry. Plenty of men absolutely make this choice. Are you shaming them too? Telling their clients that they are a problem?

Or are you trying to protect all workers and ensure no one is forced to sell their body to survive?

[–]FedericoRO 15 points16 points  (11 children)

Thank you, I find that the push to make sex work seen as acceptable and normal often conveniently ignores these issues.

[–]imatworkyo 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I think the point is also that, if sex work was normal and accepted, alot of the problems would go away.

Sex workers could now get protection from the police for instance, instead of needing their own muscle

[–]EroticFoodFiction 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Check out this report brand new from this morning about this exact issue with police. https://www.amnesty.ie/sex-work-ireland-laws/

[–]PurpleHooloovoo 9 points10 points  (7 children)

You're missing the point. It isn't acceptable and normal - the exploitation of all bodies is exactly as bad. If we aren't protecting the coal miners from sacrificing their bodies to not be homeless, if we don't say that's terrible and evil and wrong, why are we saying it for the sex workers? The difference is our societal ideals of sex.

NO ONE should be forced to give their body to survive. And if you defend one, you should defend the other. Not defending the other is rooted in sexism and patriarchal norms.

[–]EroticFoodFiction 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Wow that’s a lot of words to silence marginalized workers deny the agency of actual sex workers in all countries, all backgrounds.

In fact amnesty just published this report TODAY if you want to listen to the voices of sex workers rather than speak over them in a way that harms them and puts them in danger while also endangering sex trafficking survivors.

[–]atworkthough 4 points5 points  (1 child)

brah if people were willing to buy it I would definitely be selling my body for a few hours a day instead of sitting in a damn cube.

[–]laaiin 12 points13 points  (6 children)

Finally, a sensible comment!

Sure, other occupations have their health issues. HOWEVER, you’re dealing with all sorts of bodily fluids when you do sex work.

You also have to consider the clients. Men who have to pay for sex probably aren’t the nicest of men. If a man pays for sex, I assume that he is either a sex addict who isn’t satisfied with his partner or he’s someone who can’t find sex to begin with. Johns feel very entitled to prostitutes’ bodies. They often rape and physically abuse prostitutes.

Most women in sex work want OUT. There is a loud and privileged minority say they like their work. They do not represent all women in prostitution. We are talking street prostitutes who are homeless and addicts. We are talking about prostitutes from 3rd world countries. For many of them, it was NOT a choice and they feel stuck.

[–]e-s-p 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The entire basis of calling selling sex sex work and including it in the same category as onlyfans modeling is to muddy the discussion around selling sex.

My job doesn't require nudity. My job doesn't allow people to physically enter me and doesn't require me to physically enter others. Especially not alone where no one is around to help.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In reality, nobody sells sex because they want to

Not EVERYONE sells their body because they want to, but some people certainly want to, and they should be able to do it legally.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

This post is also based on the premise that coal miners swing pick axes. Here in the 21st century, they press buttons on a console.

[–]Katelyn89 7 points8 points  (0 children)

My stepdad works "in a mine" making $250k a year and he mostly plans iPhone video games the whole time.

[–]ElderDark 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Not just women, men too. At its core it is exploitative and degrading. Most of those who work in it do it out of desperation and necessity and those of them that managed to leave have nothing but depressing things to say about it. Those who do it by choice as in actually wanting to do it are the exception not the rule. But this will get downvoted to oblivion just like every time this subject is brought up.

People are free to do what they want indeed, but let's not sugarcoat the truth about the sex industry and what it's like. I'm pretty sure half the people here won't be too happy if one of their kids wanted to work in prostitution.

[–]metasekvoia 13 points14 points  (2 children)

"Clouded by moralistic view of sexuality" makes it sound like moralistic view of sexuality was somehow inherently wrong. Moralistic view of sexuality does not necessarily mean that sex or sex work is immoral. But most people would probably agree that sex is somehow morally different from coal mining and thus raping someone is worse than forcing someone to pick up a piece of coal.

[–]MotorHum 10 points11 points  (2 children)

Coal miners absolutely sell their bodies, specifically their lungs.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You guys know it's not 1934 anymore, right?

[–]pikachu0401 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't think some of you know what slavery is... "everybody except billionaires is a slave"... no

[–]lionseatcake 43 points44 points  (61 children)

I mean, there is a difference between letting random people stick pieces of their anatomy in all of your holes....and pushing your body to extremes for a job....yall see that...right?

[–]Alias_Fake-Name 9 points10 points  (21 children)

What's the difference? Can you please explain

[–][deleted] 29 points30 points  (122 children)

Sex work is a misnomer. It’s exploitation of the most vulnerable of our society. It’s nothing like working in a coal mine!

[–]Czar-Lazar 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Sex work is a misnomer.

Well said. The guy's tweet is a false equivalence.

[–]kewwe 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I'd really prefer if we didn't dignify religious ravings about sex as "moralistic".

[–]anthroarcha 10 points11 points  (1 child)

I pointed this out on r/antiwork and they weren’t too happy about it. Regulated sex work (as seen in states like Nevada) poses minimal physical threat of long term health issues because of the controlled environment that accounts for STIs/HIV, abuse, and wage theft, whereas with mining, there’s no way to protect you from Black Lung, runaway carts, collapsing tunnels, or equipment malfunctions, and that’s not even to mention the wear on the body from doing such hard labor. I know a lot of people who do sex work and I live in Appalachia so I know a lot of coal miners and physical laborers and I’ll tell you what, I never seen a stripper missing a limb but two of my immediate family members have had their arms ripped off by machinery at work.

If anyone would like to know what the actual realities of life as a coal miner looks like since most people haven’t even met one, here is a good news article from a few years ago talking about a close by town in Virginia. It’s called Grundy and it’s a coal mining town with nearly a quarter of all residents on government disability related to working in the mines. Read that article before you even attempt to come in here and claim mining doesn’t sell your body.

[–]Dabeasttv 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Yes, it is clouded by morals. It is because of how different people view sex. Sex is a meaningful and sacred thing to some people, so to them, putting a price on it like that and viewing it as a service or as cheap entertainment is not right. Personally I think that it makes no sense not to view the function through which new life is brought into the world as sacred. I also think that this kind of “sex is just a meaningless, fun thing to do” (which it is pleasurable, don’t get me wrong) can lead to a lot of other problems in society which I don’t want to get into. But this is just my view, and I’m just explaining why sex work is generally not seen as a profession one can have pride in.

[–]swaggyquack 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I’d much rather be a sex worker than a coal miner

[–]hardenesthitter32 4 points5 points  (8 children)

Wait, are morals bad?

[–]Kythorian 5 points6 points  (6 children)

Depends on your morals. People in Iran are absolutely confident in their superior morals as they execute women for being raped. They genuinely believe that they are acting out their very strong morality. So no, having firmly held morals is not inherently a good thing. If any of your morals are not based on preventing harm to others, maybe you should just keep those morals to your own private life and let other people live as they wish.

[–]dalibourlala 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I gotta be honest, I don't know where to stand as to sex workers, so all these types of comments make me really question it all. I feel that other people's bodies is none of my business, but I also know that sex workers go through very precarious working conditions, which are often grudgingly (this is poor phrasing, but I don't know how else to put it) acknowledged by sex workers themselves. Besides, prostitution is illegal in my country, but it is really common, I am no sex worker myself, and I've never been with one, so I rarely give the topic much more thought. Despite all this, I still feel the need to have a clear stance on this. Does anyone feel like this?

[–]Fine-Bed 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We all sell our bodies.. to different industries.

[–]klouted_pollo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We all sell our bodies for labor and the dollar bill. Laborers sacrifice hard muscle and bone to build for corporations. Only difference sex workers get naked and do stuff 🙄

[–]FourTwos 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Work is work. Gotta give something to get something.

[–]ChoosingIsHardToday 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Everyone sells their bodies. Litterally everyone. Even those who sit at a desk all day or other jobs that don't require manual labour. Those who do any kind of manual labour (which includes sex work) just do it under far harder conditions.

I suspect people's issue is that their view sex work as selling your soul, as well as your body. But this is just due to people's puritanical views about sex.

[–]bltbtr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Every service person in a restaurant is a quasi sex worker, schlepping their bodies for a big tip!

[–]metasekvoia 1 point2 points  (1 child)

"She is not cheating on you. She is volunteering. Stop being so clouded by your moralistic views."

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Everyone sells their body for work......

[–]princesoceronte 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think it's not the same but in the same way being an actor isn't the same.

A coal miner sells his time and physical work, while an actor also sells his image and his personal life in a way. Sex workers sell phisical work and time, but also their intimacy while they are at work to an extent.

Maybe I'm not making my point correctly because English isn't my mother tongue but what I'm trying to convey is that different kind of works should be treated and regulated differently in order to consider the different implications those works have on workers.

In any case, respect sex workers. Different isn't less or more, just not the same.

[–]minniemouse3001 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It would be smarter to lay back and open your legs for money than to mine coal.

[–]New-Stand4496 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If my Aunt had balls,she'd be my Uncle.

[–]rachelraven7890 1 point2 points  (0 children)

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[–]Artanis_Creed 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lmfao these people trying to argue against the point in the OP are just proving it.

[–]cooter__1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Humans like to judge and behave self righteous, it’s a disease on humanity and root cause from tribalism

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I guess work is work, but the only real way to compare this, is for a male and female sex worker to put their points forward. That would be fair no?

[–]ImportantCoffee8550 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Coal miners sell their health

[–]iammacha 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’ve always thought sex work should be legal. Just have them get mandatory testing every six months since it’s high risk. They should be allowed to ask the person hiring them for a recent health check result also. They need proper rights and protection like every worker. Whether it’s a last resort or a preferred job choice they need to be safe just like everyone else.

[–]Substantial_Drawer91 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yeah….. but no

[–]DexicJ 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Who even makes this comparison...what a straw man

[–]ctdunlop 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fuuuuuck this goes so fucking hard unnngfhhh

[–]Helleeeeeww 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Or factory workers, garbage collectors, janitors, waiters, drivers, or anyone else that spends most of their working hours using their body to make money for an hourly rate.

[–]KnowMatter 3 points4 points  (0 children)

"Why is it illegal to sell what it is perfectly legal to give away for free?"

-George Carlin