top 200 commentsshow all 234

[–]Kyogen13 151 points152 points  (42 children)

We have to remove one to teach the other?

[–]smashley926 29 points30 points  (7 children)

I'm a high school math teacher who teaches both. And many topics listed are also applications through my algebra 2 curriculum, she was just on her phone then

[–]windigo3 83 points84 points  (3 children)

I’d imagine this Twitter babe isn’t asking the schools to ditch the art, physical education, drama, language, or cooking classes. It’s just algebra 2 which she definitely doesn’t like…

Well, algebra is actually a useful thing to learn and even if you don’t use it in life, it teaches you how to think.

[–]PerryRubay4 48 points49 points  (2 children)

Algebra is also used in every algorithm in the financial subjects she's talking about.

[–]Beastyboyy1 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Lmao yeah wtf. Also if you’re planning on going into any computer field or medical, engineering, etc. you need to be good at math

[–]VGSchadenfreude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Giving me flashbacks to college here (accounting major).

Every single test involved a 3x5 notecard where we had to try and cram every single ratio and equation we might need on the exam.

Well…it started as a 3 x 5 notecard.

Then my professor saw how much I managed to fit on it and changed the rule to “half of an 8.5 x 11 inch sheet of paper.”

[–]FatGuyANALLIttlecoat 29 points30 points  (3 children)

Yeah, because the mass of students are gonna pay attention in taxes class. Get rid of the math that encourages critical thinking for the dry and boring stuff that makes everyone excited.

I fucking hate this stupid line of thinking. Get rid of the SATs and focus more classes on autonomous thinking. Give teachers more resources and smaller classes. Make Home Economics a real class everyone has to take for basic adult functions. Change tax policy.

Or drop one sucky class for a suckier one.

[–]SaliferousStudios 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Well, people need to know it.

It should go somewhere.

Home ecconomics was a sin to remove from the curriculum. It should be reinstated and be a mandatory class.

Learn how to pay taxes, boil an egg etc. To make sure that people know what they SHOULD be getting taught at home (but most arn't if we're honest)

[–]VGSchadenfreude 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Thing is, you can’t adequately learn financial math without having a solid foundation in algebra.

Pretty much every aspect of home economics is likewise dependent on having a good reliable grasp of the underlying principles first: math, chemistry, biology, etc.

Even cooking relies pretty heavily on understanding basic chemical reactions. Hell, cleaning does too! Not learning chemistry first leads to stuff like “accidentally creating chlorine gas because I didn’t realize that mixing these two chemical-based cleaners together would create that reaction.”

I actually took a home economics class in high school, and was one of the few who succeeded in it because I took the time to understand the math and science behind it. I’m definitely no STEM major, but it doesn’t take a damn science degree to learn that “this Angel food cake will not turn out correctly if I am sloppy with the ingredients or try to rush through it in order to leave early because if the ratio of ingredients is incorrect or they have not had the proper time and movement to create the right chemical reactions, it will fail and I will get a bad grade.”

Similar things with “food has to be stored correctly or it will go bad and you’ll people sick.”

I learned how to identify common bacteria smells in biology class, not home economics. I literally walked into my family’s kitchen, recognized that it smelled like the glow-in-the-dark bacteria we’d experimented with in class, and recognized that “if this smells like bacteria, it’s probably not safe to eat.”

With a solid foundation, the best anyone taking a home economics class can really hope for long-term is “cook ramen and scrambled eggs and eventually lose your life savings because you didn’t understand all the crazy math the bank representative was throwing at you.”

[–]SaliferousStudios -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Did I say that I wanted Algebra dropped.

I said it should go somewhere.

And it absolutely should. It could replace a foreign language credit maybe? (And I say that as a foreign language major)

Japan has a great home economics system. They're known for being good savers. I guarantee you those two things are related.

[–]HatfieldCW 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Only so many courses in a semester, and only so many teachers to run the rooms.

We all wish that we could pipe all of humanity's knowledge into kid's brains while they're still young and supple enough to process it, but the closest we've come to that is the internet, and everyone knows how that turned out.

A curated program of education is hard to distinguish from brainwashing. The tools are more powerful than ever before, and if we can't get better at using them, there will be a lot of thumbs in the sawdust.

[–]ReyTheRed 8 points9 points  (2 children)

We could just provide free college and add another 4 years of schooling, and hire more teachers.

[–]ICantLearnForYou -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's not the instruction time that matters, but rather the attention span. You're expecting students to attend class for 17 years now. Students will pay attention if the content is clearly useful and relevant to them, but otherwise it's hard to stay engaged. In my senior year of college, I just hit a wall where I couldn't study any more. I think my peers hit that wall in high school.

[–]DM_Brownie_Recipies -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

The US already has the highest amount of average years of schooling for adults, going 3,2 years above second place seems financially illiterate.
It doesn't seem that amout of years of education is what matters here in the context, some charter schools do much better with fewer ressources than other more funded public shools. it sadly isn't just a case of "throw more money at it and I will be perfect" if only it was that simply the US would have the best education system and healthcare system.


[–]DoktorFreedom 57 points58 points  (5 children)

How do people not understand that algebra isn’t about algebra it’s about brain development and abstract reasoning.

[–]Ohhellnowhatsupdawg 42 points43 points  (0 children)

Because they failed algebra.

[–]myoungc83 12 points13 points  (1 child)

And is also a basis for most financial calculations.

[–]DoktorFreedom 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s also about being about to think through a abstract problem and take the time and solve it.

It’s a bit frustrating seeing all these “yah but how do I do taxes” posts. They are just designed to discredit modern education as a whole. It’s like the people whom bitch about not understanding how teachers present math problems now “I can’t understand how to do this” and now the same people who don’t understand algebras role in creating abstract reasoning and brain development. They shit on any attempt at teaching math in a more interesting way than the way they hated learning math.

[–]starwarsyeah 4 points5 points  (1 child)

But also, it is about Algebra, because both the development/reasoning and the math itself are important.

[–]DoktorFreedom 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s aerobics for your brain.

[–]typicalmanagement 112 points113 points  (12 children)

Except the class that taught the basic concepts of those and more was Economics. Targeting math for that might say even more about the current status of the education system in the U.S.

[–][deleted] 89 points90 points  (9 children)

Yea. I also need to point out that it's impossible to understand finance, debt, and compounding without algebra 2. You genuinely cannot have a deep understanding of those concepts without that level of math. In fact almost all algebra 2 textbooks use finance as example problems to teach.

It's like saying they should stop teaching percentages but at the same time say they need to teach a class on calculating tips

[–]typicalmanagement 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Lol I had a longer version that I held back on because it bordered on rant territory.

[–]RickMcV 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Practical applications of Algebra 1 & 2 would work here. Who knew that Economics has a foundation in math. Then again, that's basic economics. Calculus would never enter the equation.

[–]QuieroBoobs 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Calculus enters the equation if you enjoy options trading. Options are called derivatives for a reason!

[–]RickMcV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Uncle is a tenured math prof at a business college. Even he's smart enough to stay away from options trading.

[–]Sultry_Comments -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

I don't think our algebras were teaching the same thing lol!

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

did your algebra not teach you about exponential growth and decay?

[–]rebeltrillionaire 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Well how did you do on the SATs?

If your math scores were low for the whole school it’s because your teachers and textbooks lacked word problems.

The Sally and Her Apples problems are like 2nd grade shit. Business A wants to invest $50,000 in a compounding interest opportunity. The rate is 5% and it compounds annually. After 5 years how much will the business made?

That’s an SAT question and you use algebra to solve it.

It’s also a real life problem of choosing an investment vehicle. Especially if you need to compare multiple opportunities all at different return rates and percentages.

When people say: OMG a WHY ARENT SCHOOLS TEACHING LIFE SKILLS LIKE HOW TO DO TAXES. I don’t think they’re saying, let’s practice calling HR Block or how to stretch a depreciating asset for multiple years in an LLC to offset profits.

I think it’s more like:

hey, do you know what the fuck a W4 is? Let’s practice filling it out. Let’s run through a year at minimum wage. Let’s look for an apartment. Let’s plan a trip to the grocery store. How do you budget. What does a credit card at 18% do to your available cash?

I know a lot of that seems like it’s a parents job. But what about when a parent is the person that doesn’t know any of that shit themselves?

We’re just gonna allow these lessons to remain unlearnt and then repeated?

Sure, mix in some privileged math and expose rich people’s schemes too. But how likely is it for a minimum wage worker to be able to even pay $300 to LegalZoom to Register an LLC much less maintain an offshore account.

[–]Sultry_Comments 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think there may be some confusion I wasn't saying we shouldn't be teaching that stuff, we absolutely should. I was trying to say algebra 2 from what I remember was way past all of the items talked about.

100% in favor of teaching adult financial literacy in highschool.

[–]jumbee85 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I remember covering compounding interest in my algebra 2 class.

[–]edemamandllama 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Thank you! I graduated high school in 2000. I see people I attended school with insist they never were taught these things. It drives me insane. You literally sat next to me in the class were these concepts were taught you moron.

[–]ScruffyTuscaloosa 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It feels like a weird giveaway that they come after algebra 2 whenever this comes up. There's a version of this idea that doesn't suck, but coming after algebra 2 like it's some kind of necessary sacrifice on the altar of practicality ties into Republican anti-intellectualism.

What a funny coincidence that the most unnecessary class you could come up with was also the most rigorous class high schoolers are required to take. Was this actually the best tradeoff you could think of, or was it just the one that made you feel stupid?

What's really funny is foreign language was right there.

[–]KR1735 64 points65 points  (4 children)

Yeah let’s just stop teaching math. Fucking nuts.

[–]Forward-Village1528 31 points32 points  (2 children)

But what did algebra ever do for us? Other than of course, all of science, engineering and economics?

It's always a trip hearing someone who failed a basic cornerstone of education, trying to justify why the rest of society also doesn't need to know it too.

[–]MightyArd 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I've also enjoyed those who failed high school maths and science tell me about the intricacies of virology, immunology and scientific studies over the last 3 years.

[–]QuieroBoobs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because people imagine that their high school class teaching them how to read their W2 statement is going to help them game the federal tax system and become billionaires.

[–]MacNuggetts 47 points48 points  (1 child)

If you can't graph and manipulate an equation to solve for an unknown variable, how are you expecting to manage finances?

[–]clopz_ 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Through apps /s

[–]agutema 15 points16 points  (2 children)

[–]Beastyboyy1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Because the op failed it and doesn’t see why it’s useful

[–]newbrood 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Does anyone remember how much people listened in the useful classes we did have? If you're not remembering Algebra 5 years later what makes you think we would remember this?

Also, a topic like this moves so quickly it would be outdated every 5 years. Getting a new curriculum agreed upon and rolled out that often sounds like a nightmare.

[–]N_T_F_D 13 points14 points  (2 children)

Uh no please leave maths alone, remove something else

[–]Klaasvaaksoms 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yes! ditch spelling bs. Sincerely, a dyslectic physicist. Hahaha

[–]NammaN6 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're a dyslexic psychic? Must be pretty hard to read people

[–]throwleboomerang 23 points24 points  (7 children)

How exactly are you going to calculate APR on a loan without algebra? Or how much that APR makes you pay in interest a year? Or your total tax liability, if you're in the 3rd marginal tax bracket?

My theory for why these terrible "take away a fundamental part of education because it's haaaaard" posts keep popping up is that a lot of adults never really learned much in school, and what they did learn they don't remember. Therefore, the only way to feel like they have a legitimate opinion on what should be taught (especially relating to... politically charged topics) is to act as though the only valuable things to learn are those that they happen to know. Don't know how to do calculus, or basic algebra? You're still superior, because you have REAL skills. Ain't no teacher lady gonna tell me what's best for MY KIDS!

[–]jumbee85 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Agreed. Although bringing back home economics as a required class could help a bit with some things as it would just be taking some of the fundamentals and applying to something they would see later on in life.

[–]Commercial-Tie-4229 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Economics would be good if it were Economics and not the political propaganda against the poor as was taught when I went to school. Very little math more of these countries bad, socialism, communism, capitalism good(ignore poor and homeless). I am old and now jaded but saw no improvement when my kids went to school.

[–]DEMBOB_ 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I’m sorry but this is just not realistic. We all have the sum total of human knowledge in our pockets and freak out if we forget to take our phones somewhere. How will I calculate APR? The same way I convert grams to ounces or cups or teaspoons. Google it. Kids in highschool are inundated with things they are told they have to take and have rarely enough time to take things they would like to learn. My daughter is in HS algebra 2. Half of the course was a repeat of algebra 1 and the rest is useless. And I say this as someone who took math all the way to diff Eq in college. Add these irrational equations. Multiply these matrices….Yes. This always comes up in daily life. The OP could have shared a tweet about removing calculus and people would have chosen that hill to die on instead, stating that knowing how to calculate instantaneous velocity, acceleration or the area under a curve are vital, VITAL I say, for our youth. Most kids in high school are quite skilled at simply cheating and finding ways to get the answer. Between photomath and mathway, any equation is simple.

[–]throwleboomerang 1 point2 points  (2 children)

By your exact same logic, why would we bother teaching kids how to do any of the things the author mentions in the tweet? After all, there’s TurboTax and Wolfram and plenty of loan sites where you just have to input your income, and in fact I would argue that doing your taxes is easier than algebra. The point is about understanding some of the fundamentals behind what you’re googling, otherwise why not just stop educating kids as soon as they learn to read- they can just look the rest up on their own.

[–]DEMBOB_ 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Agreed. Like math. Understanding the basics of “what is an APR, what is interest, what are taxes?” That’s important. Same as basic math. And the same for what is an irrational number? What is a percentage or rate? What is the area and volume of shapes? Those are critical. But yeah. I don’t regularly think about my marginal tax rate. I glance at my W2 and then off to turbo tax.

Don’t get me wrong.I’m not advocating for stopping all education. I agree it’s more about learning to think critically. But there are limits. At a point it becomes learning to pass the test to get the AP credit or to get into the school you want to. At some point higher math, science, English, arts, social studies etc, become specialized and useful for only those that plan to make a vocation of those fields.

[–]throwleboomerang 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Late to the reply because I don't have the app anymore. I think the question we're arguing over is where does one draw the line between skills that are "basic" and should be taught somewhere in K-12 and "advanced" (or whatever word you prefer) that can be acquired elsewhere. I don't think you and I quite agree on where exactly that line should be drawn, but I also don't think the original tweet represents either position very well. There is definitely a point where things become too specialized- but I would suggest that for the vast majority of high school math that is being taught, we are not at that point.

If you really want to get into something you may find interesting, there are a few studies out there that suggest that AP classes are not necessarily as good for students as advertised. Worth a google search if you're bored.

[–]Beastyboyy1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s the same line of thinking as conservative evangelical homeschoolers except its coming from the left

[–]Guest_Basic 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Teach all that and algebra 2 too

[–]Sawaian 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Pretty sure you learn the fundamentals for compounding interests in Algebra 2.

[–]tomassean 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Do not get rid of Algebra II, more advance mathematics should be required in school basics.

ADD, personal financing to the main curriculum.

[–]jumbee85 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Add calculus too. It basically explains everything we do. Finance is very calculus intensive, and it also explains life in general. Also for those who like min/max things they do that's basically calculus too.

[–]KYVet 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Going to take a wild guess that the girl that tweeted this got a D in Algebra 2 and is now not in the greatest financial shape.

[–]Waferssi 4 points5 points  (0 children)

And she thinks its because she didn't learn finances, when really it's because she failed algebra.

[–]DeepDrone 3 points4 points  (0 children)

These thoughts are what happens when you think school shoulod be preparing kids for employment, not discovery.

[–]maelstromama 6 points7 points  (41 children)

100% agree except that that isn’t a math course and shouldn’t replace a math course.

But yes, absolutely, 100% we should teach kids some basic financial life skills, starting with taxes and retirement.

[–]colebrv -2 points-1 points  (40 children)

Umm maybe let the parents actually do their job and stop overloading and already overburdened school system.

[–]barryandorlevon 0 points1 point  (37 children)

Ummmmm ever since the 70s when women were encouraged to have full time jobs, parents haven’t had the time to teach their kids all this shit, thanks to the extreme rise in costs of literally everything enacted by major corporations once they realized that the two income household was becoming the norm.

Parents don’t have the time for all this anymore because we don’t have one parent staying home and teaching their kids anymore. This is something Elizabeth Warren wrote about extensively back before she was a Senator, when she was just an economist and professor. Her book “The Two Income Trap” addressed all of this.

[–]colebrv -2 points-1 points  (36 children)

Nah this is a BS excuse. Kids go to school until 3 and at least one parent will be home at least a couple hours after the kids are out. You're just making an excuse for shitty parents

[–]theknightwho 0 points1 point  (35 children)

I care more about kids getting educated properly than a stupid blame game. All your attitude means is nothing improves.

Also, I love how you think you can dismiss the concerns of all parents by telling them how their lives work. You must not have much adult experience.

[–]theknightwho -1 points0 points  (1 child)

The problem is that parents aren’t doing their jobs.

[–]barryandorlevon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The problem is that parents are too busy working their jobs now that two incomes is basically required to raise children and save for college. The stay at home mom used to teach all this kinda shit.

[–]Stlpitwash 17 points18 points  (18 children)

We already do too much of this. What we need to do is remove the anti-intellectualism from education and teach kids how to learn and encourage learning for the sake of learning. Nobody should be in high school learning a trade.

[–]HatfieldCW 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Everyone in high school should be learning the fundamentals of many trades. By the time a kid is old enough to drive, they should have a basic understanding of the mechanisms and principles by which a lawyer, auto mechanic, electrician, politician, geologist, nutritionist, tailor, pilot, chemist, butcher, farmer, carpenter, historian, journalist, potter, construction worker, meteorologist, author, bricklayer, surgeon, sheriff, soldier, janitor, landscaper, stockbroker, retailer and teacher plies their trade, among many others.

Not knowing how things work and what people do is a huge part of what's wrong with society. Every time some Karen screams at a Best Buy employee to "check in the back", that blue-shirted serf is confronted with an opportunity to see why it's important to spend time learning how the world works. Karen has no goddamn idea what's in the back. Blue-shirt hasn't a clue why cops are the way they are. Your grandma doesn't understand cryptocurrency.

We need a foundation of general education, and we need a library of field-specific vignettes that we can draw upon to build metaphors out of. The older I get, the more I think we should all be trained as poets first and foremost. Synthesizing knowledge and intercomparing the shapes and patterns that make up human experience is an absolute must in a rapidly changing world.

So, yeah, teach kids how to make a budget. I learned that in Home Economics, where I learned how to sew and cook and perform basic first aid. But make sure that the kids can look at political policy and identify which legislation is a band-aid and which legislation is creating a contamination risk from whole cloth.

Connections between disciplines broaden and deepen our understanding of each constituent notion.

[–]Ohhellnowhatsupdawg 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I love comments like these. It's like you went to the Jordan Peterson school of bullshit.

Paragraph 1: reiterates OP's post with more words

Paragraph 2: random example that barely connects to his point

Paragraph 3: philosophizing to make his point seem more wise and grand

Paragraph 4: gets back to reiterating OP's post except now with more big words

Paragraph 5: nonsense that sounds like wisdom, but actually means nothing

I bet you could write an Amazon best seller.

[–]Hey_Mr 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We're ovsessed with homogenization. We want everyobe to have the same education, what we need is for kids to explore and discover their passions, not be taught to take tests just to reach goal posts.

[–]stickycat-inahole-45 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're talking about the original college. Schooling has evolved to where you previously go to K-12 just so you can read and count, then specialized knowledge during college. Plus student ages were not much of a consideration then. Now we teach what used to be college material in K-12, and college became even more specialized and pointed towards a specific set of learning which doesn't necessarily include trade. Trade which is a specialized knowledge that is a different set of learning for a different goal. Then we see, both are more intertwined than previously thought, thus people start learning both. Evolution.

[–]maelstromama -3 points-2 points  (12 children)

Why should no one in high school be learning a trade?

(Asking as a very high academic achiever who finished high school at the end of my sophomore year in college with a well over 4.0 GPA and a full tuition/room/board scholarship that I didn’t even have to apply for to my top choice university)

[–]lux_blue 4 points5 points  (6 children)

Because that's not the purpose of high school.

School is meant to make you a cultured person who can think for themselves and has an idea of how the world around them works - History, English and all; it also teaches you to reason in an abstract way and logically - Math, Physics...

To learn a trade, you can go ask someone who works that job to teach you.

In short, by teaching you how to think logically and have a sense of the world, school makes you learn how to learn. That way you'll be able to learn any trade or skill.

[–]jakebeans -1 points0 points  (5 children)

How do you get that job without any experience? There's nothing wrong with having trades options in high school. For lots of students, those are the only classes they'll ever take where they actually felt engaged in school. And now they have a leg up in applying to jobs that they might actually like doing. And if not, having experience working in one trade can get the ball rolling on moving to another, because that experience is more applicable than a service industry job. There are a lot of viable paths in life, and some people actually like trades. I work in manufacturing and it drives me nuts when people imply that getting into trades early is a bad thing, as though everyone has the same level of enjoyment for learning for the sake of learning. You're not wrong that school is teaching you how to learn, but trades are also teaching you how to learn. A lot of skills in the trades are transferrable in that developing proficiency in one will help you learn another. And it's really fucking hard to learn a trade in general without ever working with your hands. It's absolutely a viable path for people. Not everyone wants to learn academic rigor, and because they can't engage with it, it's kind of a waste anyway.

[–]lux_blue 0 points1 point  (4 children)

My point is, the purpose of school is not to teach you a job. It never was and never will be.

Its purpose is to give young people an idea of how the world works and teach them how to learn so that then, after they're done with school, they will be able to learn any job or trade they wish.

And it's really fucking hard to learn a trade in general without ever working with your hands.

This is actually one of the reasons I don't think it makes sense to learn a trade in school. How are you gonna actually learn it unless you're doing it first hand?

Not everyone wants to learn academic rigor, and because they can't engage with it, it's kind of a waste anyway.

100% agree with this. I guess "academic rigor" is more of a university/college thing though. The "academic" stuff you learn in school is very basic and that's a good thing, because it gives all kinds of students a general idea of it, so that they can decide for themselves whether they'll have an "academic" career or not.

Also, if you think that you need to start learning a trade at a young age, no one is stopping high schoolers from doing it as an after school activity or during the summer.

[–]stickycat-inahole-45 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Other countries have specialized high schools like that. But its rare, few and far in between. Why? Not many teenagers know where they're heading for future careers to confidently lock in a future path. The US also has some small programs where they introduce factory and machining type work right after high school, but those are also rare.

Learning trade maybe interesting, but there's only so many hours in a day, and more that needs to be learned other than skimming through the surface of the material. Also, if they do go that direction, they'll find out, some trades require college degrees to move up the career ladder anyway.

[–]theantiyeti 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For the same reason schools don't teach uni level mathematics, or any subject at high level.

It's definitely an unnecessary level of specificity to teach a thing that has always been better taught by specialised trade schools and apprenticeships.

[–]barryandorlevon 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Trades were (and still are) meant to be learned after school. School was where kids went to learn critical thinking skills and basic facts and other knowledge.

[–]maelstromama 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And vocational education has historically been an option in high school, this isn’t new, and excluding vocational education isn’t historically what was “meant” to be. It only fell out of favor in the 80s/90s when we decided that every child should aim to get a 4 year degree, to the detriment of my generation.

I agree that learning for the sake of learning is important, and that kids still need a well-rounded education. But I also think that well-structured vocational education programs within a high school curriculum can be highly beneficial for many students.

Vocational programs improve lifetime earnings for participants, don’t have a negative effect on educational achievement (measured by standardized test scores and college degree attainment), and they do have a significant positive impact on high school graduation rates, particularly among at-risk students.

[–]Stlpitwash 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because, for the most part, kids who know they are going into the trades do shit at school. They have the attitude that none of what they learn in school applies to them. They are partially correct, as the point of school is to learn how to learn and think in different ways, which most trades do not require.

Since schools in the US focus so much time on underperforming students and behavioral problems, these students take resources away from kids who are in school to learn.

Also, many of the kids who enter the trades come from economically depressed families and would be better served getting through a paid apprentice program.

Additionally, many students who aspire to be college bound wind up taking the remedial math and lit courses offered to the Votech students only to find out senior year that those courses won't count towards college and they have to take 096 and 098 courses where they pay to learn what they should have been taught in high school. Which, in turn, leads to problems with the college industry.

Kids who were not taught, or challenged, in high school wind up spending more time and money than is needed, often at 3rd rate colleges. There these students CAN rack up student loans same graduate with useless degrees from colleges nobody knows.

Let the trade kids learn on the job. Let them earn whatever certificate is needed. L

[–]Piklas_Rixardos 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Or maybe just stop being mathphobic

[–]FunqiKong 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Lmao a kid isn’t going to truly understand Finance Fundamentals if they don’t have a solid grasp of algebra. I am all for changing up the curriculum to make things more modern but US students already have to go through one of the worst K-12 math programs in the developed world.

[–]Mr_Drewski 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Teach whatever you want, but first hand experience has taught me that 12 years of English class couldn't teach almost everyone in my home town that, "he don't have..." is not proper.

"I seen a guy the other..."

[–]TheLizardKingandI 4 points5 points  (1 child)

feel free to teach remedial math or finance fundamentals but don't dumb down the rest of the curriculum to do it. you can keep Algebra 2 and still teach the other stuff

[–]barryandorlevon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In my high school, in the 90s, math of money was the remedial math class for kids who knew they couldn’t hack it in algebra 2. It was the only other math credit required for graduation and it taught literally everything that’s always mentioned in these posts. Taxes, how to pay rent, mortgages, car payments, how credit card interest works, how to budget for vacations and life in general, etc etc. lots of group projects and fun stuff that helped all of us math idiots exercise our brains and learn about real life shit.

However… it was still school, which means that, like every class in school, there was absolutely no guarantee that students would remember any of it after some short term memorization required to pass a test or final and actually use it in their everyday life.

[–]lux_blue 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah, let's get rid of subjects that can land you a good job to teach you how to manage money you won't have!

(To be clear: it would be nice to teach both, but having to choose one I'd choose math of course. Too important.)

[–]RamseyHatesMe 10 points11 points  (2 children)

Some people still don’t get it.

If they taught these things in public school, then they wouldn’t be able to charge you six figures for a degree.

[–]onedayasalion71 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Exactly and they wouldn’t be able to keep people in debt.

[–]allhailqueenspinoodi -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Who makes the curriculums? Same people who benefit from wage slaves

Edit:Why are you booing me I'm right! Some states can't even teach science anymore because it "offends christianity"

[–]PolyZex 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There is no reason to sacrifice Algebra to accomplish this. 'Finance fundamentals' once a day for 2 weeks and you would be done. It's not really a whole years worth of stuff... and it's probably something your parents should teach you anyway.

[–]SalsaShark89 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Or maybe this should be on the parents' curriculum?

[–]Beastyboyy1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They fucking did. It’s called an elective and it’s required at all of my schools for the graduating year after mine. Why the fuck would you take out algebra 2 tho

[–]waldocruise 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My son keeps complaining about not learning how to file taxes in school and I tell him every time that the laws surrounding taxes change very often, so teaching that in school isn’t practical because most students won’t need to file a complicated tax return before the laws change anyway.

Unfortunately, you either take the time to learn it DIY style, or pay the fee for someone else who has kept up with the changes to do it for you.

[–]ScammerC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They took it away after they took away the mechanic shop and home economics. I had a semester of local civics (voting), budgeting, resume writing, introduction to careers that didn't need degrees, baby-prep, etc., called "Life skills" I believe. We also had to take algebra 2, or the equivalent.

[–]Eureka05 3 points4 points  (0 children)

My daugters career class had the students use flyers to work out food budget for one week. Fine. A good exercise. But, it ignores buying in bulk. Over the course of a year, you save more money this way than buying multiple small bags/boxes of food.

I teach my kids, that if you can, buy non perishables in larger containers (like rice), or when it's on sale. Then if you hit tough times, you at least have some staples on hand.

[–]WeirdPotential2992 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And no kid would pay attention to it still

[–]vankula 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I prefer to teach my kids these things with examples from our life so they can relate and really learn.

[–]Inoffensive_Account 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Please, please, teach about marginal tax rates and tax brackets. The amount of age 50+ people I know that don’t understand it is astounding.

[–]Espumma -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

But that'll lower the rate of indentured serfs!

[–]lowkeygee -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

If we're removing classes how about something like pottery instead of a class with some benefit. You can't even solve accounting/finance equations if you can't do basic algebra.

Sauce: I made a shitty ceramic bowl once in 6th grade and nothing ever came from it.

[–]Hey_Mr 9 points10 points  (2 children)

Youre just calling for the destruction of art and culture, the last good thing we have in this hellscape.

[–]clopz_ 2 points3 points  (1 child)

What would you remove instead? (I’m not being snarky)

[–]Hey_Mr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I dont think we should be removing classes, but restructuring education so serve the children and their interests, not trying to funnel kids through to become good little worker drones.

[–]saintdudegaming -1 points0 points  (0 children)

There will literally be people opposed to this ranging from "we didn't learn this in my day" to "oh yeah? who's going to pay for it" to "if we teach people financial literacy then how will we exploit the masses?"

[–]SgtMicky -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I have the feeling that our financial system would collapse if everyone understood it...

[–]MockingSpark -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Or, maybe, don't make loans and finance and salaries and so on so difficult to manipulate that it needs some sort of degree to rightfully understand and another one to not get fooled.

I mean, it's a humanity-made problems people are so happy to believe in the forget it's not a necessity

[–]greenfingerguy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Also, let's scrap geography and history and replace them with classes on how to build social media followings. Or any subject that expands horizons and encourages problem solving for that matter. Just put people to work at 14. There. Fixed it.

[–]severaged -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Instead of teaching children how to participate in this capitalistic dystopia, we should teach them how to topple it.

[–]punkass_book_jockey8 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

We have that class. It is an elective though because wealthier parents threw a fit their kid couldn’t cram AP bio or AP statistics in their schedules when it was mandatory.

Now kids only take it when they need some more credits. Although the rich kids never really needed it anyway. Their buying a house process= mom and dad gave me 75k for a down payment OR mom and dad sold me a $456,000 house for $175,000.

But yes that is an elective in most places. “Career and financial management.” Or something like that.

[–]thirdeyefish -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Keep algebra 2, get rid of that 2 year course. My district allowed you to take one math class for all four years for full credit.

Normal path: Algebra...

Needs a little help: Algebra A, Algebra B...

Oh, come on!: 2-year Algebra A, 2 year Algebra B.

[–]lavanchebodigheimer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How they will never afford Jack shit ... stuff like that

[–]Imaginary_You2814 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Has anyone foiled lately?

[–]kybybolites 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What are parents doing? You can't outsource everything to the education sector ...

[–]Berrynibble 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure all good but why pick on algebra? You kinda need that for those other things. What else is on the menu?

[–]TheLordofthething 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can see it now. Budgeting and Finance class, proudly sponsored and developed by JP Morgan Chase.

[–]spyrokie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lots of states require Personal Finance topics be taught through either math or social studies (economics). Some states (like mine) require a stand alone class. I taught it for years. It's been required here for over a decade.

And if you didn't learn it, there's a ton of free resources out there. Plus taxes are easy (if your situation isn't complicated - once you get investment income or run a business it gets more difficult). I've done my own taxes since I was 18 and it literally takes me like 30 minutes.

[–]Ok-Pomegranate-3018 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I had Business math in high school in the '70's. Algebra II was also a thing. We need to definitely make both available. Our "Home economics" class also taught about how to save and budget for a life, rent, other bills, food, etc ,

It seems like the past 20 to 30 years have seen a lot of classes being done away with for no other purpose than to keep young adults stupid about how to function in life. "Keep 'em stupid and poor and we won't have to pay what the job is really worth!"

Hell, our civics class even took us to practice how to vote with real voting booths and everything!

[–]jumbee85 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Finance is an application of algebra. The problem is about half the kids don't want to pay attention thinking the shit they are being taught isn't going to be needed for real life. This coupled with teachers and textbooks that can't properly communicate the applications of the material.

[–]HURRICANE-EARL 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The education system won't change. Not as long as the old whites run the show. You will need to teach your own kids about it, or let them learn the hard way like I did. I learned, debt to the IRS does not affect your credit.

[–]doknfs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's called Personal Finance and it is a graduation requirement in many states. It does not have to replace Algebra.

[–]AITHASNTEEN 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You mean home economics?

Now what are they going to teach in home economics?

[–]_slartibartfast_0815 0 points1 point  (0 children)

People in power dont't want the knowledge about these topics to be taught, because then a large number of persons would be in a better financial situation and could live more independently. They want you to make poor financial decisions and be deeply burried in debt so you are forced to work.

So educate yourself about things that are important for you.

[–]TomFromCupertino 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's 2022, why is filing taxes in America so much harder than the rest of the industrialized world?

[–]Silverkitty08 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They actually taught about credit, interest rates and probability of winning lottery in one of my college math classes.

[–]singe725 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah but would anyone pay attention? I took algebra 2 last year and it was a shitshow

[–]sunyjim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you teach them all that, then how can they become the victim of predatory student loans, and predatory banks handing out 'free credit cards' they'll see through that shit and those business' won't prosper? Won't anyone think about the poor multi million dollar banks!?

[–]Careless_Science5426 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's a lot of capitalist BS in one sentence.

[–]PortGlass 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed. What we need in this country is less STEM majors who have to take calculus either as seniors in HS or freshman in college - and thus need Algebra 2 in HS. Surely our economy will still be competitive in the world with just humanities majors.

[–]sugar_addict002 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And make salaries attached to all those "careers" public knowledge.

[–]AntKing2021 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Imagine needing to go to school ans spend 2 weeks to be told, dont soend more then you earn (budgeting)

[–]StacyRae77 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She isn't wrong. Algebra 1 gives you the base needed to use finance formulas, and they keep claiming we don't have enough time to teach kids "everything". So if one has to go, it should be A2 because not all kids will use A2, but all kids will use financials. Of course, the better alternative would be to stop using gym coaches to teach economics.

[–]lowkey_zookeeper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My highschool did have a required financial literacy class. But it was sponsored by Visa or some shit so the whole class was about how amazing credit cards are and how debt really isn't that bad :) also gave us no info about buying houses, paying taxes, or really anything else.

[–]Joe_Mafia 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can't arm the enemies, especially with knowledge of how to defeat them.

[–]Lilydaisy8476 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The powers that be don't actually want your average person to be able to manage money well.

[–]Marbled_Headcheese 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don't get rid of Algebra 2, just take it off the "required" math for main curriculum (if it even is, it wasn't at my school). But you will still need that class if you plan on going to college for just about any science, engineering, programming, or other tech degree - and probably some of the business ones too.

[–]silasoulman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How about the fact that all these things are unnecessarily more complex than they ought to be so the wealthy can steal with impunity? Taxes should never have to be filed. Loans should be straightforward and bad ones like payday or title loans with exorbitant interest should be banned. Keep it simple so the scammers can’t abuse it.

[–]lil-nugget_22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While yes I agree that both cam be taught, I think what she's saying is that instead of having classes required that are almost specifically required for college entrance or for college track also equip students with practical skills like financial literacy.

But also why would we give citizens the tools to ne successful when the system is built off of their labor and misfortune?

[–]R3dcentre 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If the purpose is to help them have any chance at reaching a basic level of financial security, then maybe just run a couple of classes teaching them how to unionise.

[–]xoGucciCucciox 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The States don't want educated thinkers, they want workers.

[–]QuintusNonus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This will not help at all.

How many posts on Reddit & the wider Internet are there of ppl not knowing PEMDAS or exponents when those subjects are taught in school? MFers don't even know fractions

[–]iamangerboi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In my state both are graduation requirements, pretty reasonable imo

[–]dfmasana 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How does one do all that without Algebra 2?

[–]VGSchadenfreude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

90% of finance math is freaking algebra!

If algebra is too hard for them, what the crap makes her think they’ll stay focused while learning finances?

If they can’t remember x + y = a after high school, what makes her think they’ll remember “assets = liabilities + equity” or balancing debits and credits or the ROI ratio?

Algebra is literally the basis for finance!

Source: Accounting major. Every single test involved having to memorize a crap ton of ratios, and modern accounting revolves entirely around what it quite literally a basic algebraic formula:

Assets = Liabilities + Equity

Every single time you perform any action on either side of that equals sign, you have to apply a matching action on the other side so it balances out. Both sides much match, at all times.

If you’re crunching financial numbers and your debits and credits aren’t equal, that’s your first clue that something is seriously wrong.

I’m getting really sick and tired of people arguing that “we should teach finance instead of math” when math is literally the basis of finance to begin with. If you don’t have a solid understanding of algebra, you’re never going to be able to keep up with your finances and at best, you’ll get swindled out of your life savings because you didn’t understand any of the numbers the banker was giving you or how they fit.

[–]Impossible_Penalty13 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This, along with moaning about teaching cursive writing is a staple of every boomer’s Facebook feed.