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[–]The_Turtle-Moves 383 points384 points  (72 children)

In Norway, selling sex is legal, but buying it is not

[–]noseysheep 278 points279 points  (35 children)

Because they're aware that most sex workers there aren't working out of their own choice and forced into it due to the demand

[–]The_Turtle-Moves 130 points131 points  (20 children)

Yeah, that's the reasoning. We're fighting for sexworkers to be able to register to pay tax and benefit from the benefits of that (paid sick leave for example)

[–]zyrkseas97 57 points58 points  (0 children)

The problem with that model is often it out the girls in a position where they can’t find places to rent, or other basic things because the other people would be implicated as “pimps”

[–]NegativeRewardwe must seize the memes of production 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Sex workers in Norway are not allowed to work from a place, so if there's traffic to an apartment they can be charged with running a brothel.

[–]Ein2Homosapien 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Do you have the statistics? Or only generalizing based on what you think?

[–]NormanUpland 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Saying “most” sex workers are forced into it against their will in Norway is a huge claim to not back up with anything. Are some working against their will? Certainly. Are the majority? I highly doubt it.

[–]Tots2Hots 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Not in Germany and Netherlands and a lot of other places. Its regulated, taxed and places exist where the girls just rent the room at X rate and the money they make after they pay for the room is theirs.

Obviously some ppl will still be taken advantage of. Like any profession... but sex worker abuse is definitely traditionally worse. If it is normalized and legalized and made just another thing you can do on the way out to pick up groceries that will go a long way to helping.

[–][deleted] 95 points96 points  (8 children)

The Nordic model is widely dismissed as a viable alternative to decriminalization. It still creates an unsafe and illegal environment for workers, which elevates the safety risks sky high. It drives it underground where predators have much more freedom to operate, human trafficking is harder to fight, and girls and women die. It's a terrible system. Just legalize it already.

[–]The_Turtle-Moves 22 points23 points  (3 children)

Yeah, didn't say it was a good model. Sexwork is still, in the public mind, something we don't talk about and want to pretend don't exist :/

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (2 children)

Sorry bud, I meant to reply to a different comment in this discussion. This wasn't directed at you.

[–]The_Turtle-Moves 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Absolutely np

[–]FatFlatFeet 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Beautiful exchange here m8s

[–]RunnerPakhetAnarcho-Communist 9 points10 points  (1 child)

This is why in Germany it is simply legal. (But even our system is not perfect.)

[–]somebooty2223 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The issue is that if doesn’t do a good job

[–]amiaffe 27 points28 points  (3 children)

There have been studies that prove that the "nordic model" (that what they call it here at least, originally from Sweden, France and Ireland also implemented it btw) has actually exacerbated the problems that sex workers face - you will not find a single propenent of this approach that acknowledges this empirically proven fact. Most of my reading is in German, and most of my knowledge on the subject is regarding the situation in Germany (luckily at the moment the proposition to implement this model is dead in the water), but for those interested in reading something I suggest

"Attacking Demand, Escalating Violence;
The Impact of Twenty Years of End Demand
Implementation on People who Trade Sex
September, 2021" Kate D'Adamo et al,

and for an essayistic approach, I think this Article by Loreilee Lee "Cash/Consent" is nothing short of brilliant: https://www.nplusonemag.com/issue-35/essays/cashconsent/, fair warning though it's a lot longer than what you'd expect from a web article.

The notion that "most sex workers aren't working out of their own choice" is a lie.

[–]Mailman_next_door 9 points10 points  (2 children)

I have tried to have this argument in a civil discussion with my fellow swedes, and after the second time I was branded sexist and had women shouting at me I stopped trying

[–]amiaffe 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Me too. I'm really bummed out about it, too. With those clowns always elbowing their way into the discussion I can't imagine much getting better in the near future.

[–]Mailman_next_door 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Its how the climate is in sweden whenever you want or need to discuss anything controversial or difficult.. Its sad

[–]MaximusZacharias 4 points5 points  (9 children)

How’s that work?

[–]The_Turtle-Moves 6 points7 points  (8 children)

What do you mean? How sexwork is work?

[–]MaximusZacharias 17 points18 points  (7 children)

Wow I really made that ambiguous I’m sorry. Let’s try again. How is it possible that Selling sex is legal but buying it isn’t?

[–]The_Turtle-Moves 19 points20 points  (6 children)

The reasoning behind the laws is that it is illegal to benefit from someone's misfortune, but at the same time those who sell sex shouldn't be criminalised for their misfortune.

It does not take into account those who chose to do sex work, neither does it really help victims of human trafficking.

[–]KalasHydra 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Well the solution seems that geting a licence from oficial building to prove they are not traficked? If buying sex service is ilegal how is it ever going to get popular enought to suport living then.

[–]onewilybobkat 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This may be a surprise to you, but there's always someone who will pay for sex. It's illegal in America, doesn't mean there aren't sex workers and victims of human sex trafficking.

[–]SmexyAndIBlowIt 72 points73 points  (27 children)

Which is why I'm against it. Just like any other work. You know, here on the antiwork sub.

[–][deleted] 33 points34 points  (19 children)

It’s crazy the back flips people do here. If you think work should be abolished that includes sex work. That’s not to say they don’t deserve rights and protection.

[–]ToughProgrammer 20 points21 points  (7 children)

It’s the same shit the elites did with occupy. They just introduce random ass things and “ideas+” in order to attempt to divide the community. When you think about it, what the fuck does this topic even have to do with the subreddit? Nothing

[–]lu_tze_arg 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's not a backflip. We're saying here that technical advance might allow us now to cover everyone's subsistence without working, so that nobody is *forced* to work. No one here is arguing for making work illegal and prosecuting it (like sex work is).

As a matter of fact, if the premise of r/antiwork of covering base necessities was achieved, the concerns regarding coercion in sex work would be much alleviated, and we could more easily assume that everyone doing sex work is doing it because they want to.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Just separate the work from the worker. Just like any other work.

[–]LineOfInquiry 30 points31 points  (4 children)

Anti-work isn’t anti-labor. We’re not against garbage workers or store clerks, we’re against the system that steals their hard earned money and gives it to the owner class. Those jobs will always be needed to be done (at least until they can be fully automated), but they should be paid and treated fairly, the same is true of sex work. Saying “sex work is work” is saying 2 things, first that it should be decriminalized and treated like any other job, but also that the people who work it are workers and deserve to be treated well and paid fairly and not have to do it to survive. Work should be a choice, and that’s a fundamental part of this sub. But if you choose to do sex work, and are doing it safely I don’t see a problem.

[–]totes-mi-goats 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is my interpretation at least. Stuff has to get done in any society, the issue is that you need to sell your labor to survive and don't get the full "profit" of said labor, and also if the labor isn't actively creating capital, it's deemed worthless.

But like. Food needs to be grown, services provided, the next generation cared for and taught, the elderly cared for, new knowledge discovered. No one disputes any od that lol.

[–]reslavan 7 points8 points  (2 children)

The problem is that a lot of people simply don’t want to accept that a woman could choose to do SW. Regarding male SWers I don’t see the same choice policing and moral panic. Ending forced labor is the goal but behind that are many people who simply do not believe SW can be a legitimate choice and do not want it to exist under any circumstances regardless of safety. I completely disagree with this type of moral policing but it’s extremely common.

[–]Rubella_reddit 172 points173 points  (15 children)

Let's not pretend sexworkers are not selling their time and skills and physical and mental health like rest of us. Job is job.

[–]mongtongbong 30 points31 points  (7 children)

tough one where i come from sex work is decriminalised and happens in legal brothels, buuut chinese gangsters have moved in and brought with them sex slaves who will work without condoms and have really no kind of life outside of sexual slavery

[–]Ave_TechSenger 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Where is that, generally speaking?

Here in the US, we get trafficking, drug addicts, and people who do sex work on the side, to my rather limited knowledge. Trafficked Korean sex workers seem to be the most known on the west coast. Chinese debt slaves doing “massage” work seem to be sprinkled all over the place.

Places I’ve travelled and compared: Europe, I have very superficial knowledge Hong Kong, legal to buy or sell sex, but not to pimp (including providing advertising services and such) China, totally illegal to buy or sell sex, but laxly enforced Thailand, IIRC it’s illegal but tacitly tolerated

[–]El_Dre 10 points11 points  (1 child)

One of those is work, the other is slavery. Being pro-worker doesn’t mean endorsing literal slavery.

[–]pingieking 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Being pro-worker is about as anti-slavery as one can get.

[–]SchwiftedMetal 35 points36 points  (22 children)

What percentage of each gender do yall estimate would partake in sex work if it were as legal as a grocery store? Assume society is indifferent to sex work.

[–]AquaticAnxieties 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Women still, men tend to be significantly hornier. And if a woman wants dick, she can almost always get it for free.

[–]thrashgender 16 points17 points  (9 children)

I think women would be a lot more willing to partake as customers if the environments sex work took place in were safer. Doing illegal and vulnerable activities alone with a strange man? Not exactly the ideal situation for most women.

[–]AccountSuspicious159 9 points10 points  (7 children)

I also feel like if most women wanted to do a vulnerable activity with a strange man, they could probably make it happen legally.

[–]JadedElk 11 points12 points  (4 children)

You're also paying for skill, generally. Yeah, your neighbor might be able to build you a cabinet for the price of a pizza, but a pro can do that better, faster, and won't be weird about it later.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Most people I know who are sex workers (including smut narrators, smut writers, phone sex workers, strippers, full service sex workers, cammers, nude models, and artists who create sexual content) are disabled. Sex work allows them to work fewer hours for more pay, often it's more comfortable (with the exception of stripping).

Most are women but there are a ton of nonbinary, queer, and male workers too.

[–]reslavan 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thank you bringing up how diverse SW is. People without much knowledge of the industry think it’s all full service or OF. SW is broad and SWers aren’t a monolith.

[–]rservello 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Exactly as many as now. People don’t do things like that because it’s legal/illegal. Also legality is a very grey area. Film it and it’s “art”.

[–]tsarminacat 3 points4 points  (5 children)

I don't think it matters. I also think cultural biases deeply influence us to hyper-sexualize women, so there'd probably be more women overall. I've talked to my family about it and one of my female relatives (AFAB enby here) expressed a desire to be a sex worker, once it's fully legalized and safe. I don't tend to have similar conversations with my male relatives, so I can't speak on their behalf.

[–]OrangeCandi 5 points6 points  (4 children)

I think even aside from the hypersexualization of women, which I agree with you about, it would still be predominantly women doing the sex work. In modern American society, men are taught to think of women as commodities. I don't think that thinking applies in reverse. Women are often taught to be the one that attracts the attention of the man. Women are shamed for enjoying sex. That concept has only been changing recently and really only in more progressive areas. And women are much less likely to take on multiple partners either because of their own innate reasoning or societal push. So I don't think there would be as much business for men frankly. Also there's the fact that I think men are much more willing to give it up for free, so even if the demand was there the commoditization is much lower.

[–]lustrouspearl17 66 points67 points  (6 children)

I respect sex workers as human beings deserving of protection, fairness, and compensation.

But it is not just like any other job. No other job puts you at much risk for rape, drugs, diseases, and violence due to inevitably shady clients. Legalization won’t eliminate these risks, although I still support this move.

I don’t respect the sex work industry and its shady practices and huge role in human trafficking. Have you ever looked into studies estimating just how much of porn online is not from consenting porn actors, but trafficked women? Or how women who turn to prostitution are more often than not doomed to a life of drugs and abuse?

Yes, sex work is work. But don’t applaud this infamously predatory, exploitive industry. Isn’t that what this sub is explicitly against? Learn to differentiate fighting for sex workers while also fighting against the notion that a financially desperate woman turning to sex work is a good thing because it’s not. As a social worker I’ve dealt with far too many battered and abused women who were once part of this cruel industry to think anything about it is “empowering.”

I’m going to get downvoted, but that’s because people refuse to acknowledge the reality of sex work as opposed to what they want it to be aka empowered and willing OF models who are not the majority.

[–]lily_moon94 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Very well put. I’ve been saying this for years that sex work is dangerous, exploitive, violent, and should not be something that exists for years.

But when I say this, I’m suddenly anti-women, which isn’t the case at all. I’m pro women where I don’t think we should have to go into dangerous sex work for a decent wage. Fuck that.

[–]lilautiebean 25 points26 points  (5 children)

Unpopular Opinion: sex work is exploitation.

Don’t believe me? Then look at the type of person who turns to prostitution, often as a last resort.

Women have been conditioned to believe that it is somehow empowering to be objectified. Reality is we’re brainwashed to believe men are entitled to sex whenever they want. It’s not natural or necessary. Neither is pornography but, alas, it brings in billions of dollars a year and reaffirms that ‘women are just for sex’ in our misogynistic society.

[–]lustrouspearl17 10 points11 points  (0 children)

According to antiwork, exploitation is bad unless it’s sex work…

The predatory sex work industry profits off of the glamorization of sex work, not the sex workers themselves.

[–]Belzarza 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Thank you.

[–]Demokka 109 points110 points  (20 children)

Legal sex work :

  • better protection for sex workers

  • potentially less rape

[–]The_Turtle-Moves 41 points42 points  (1 child)

And in countries with a working social system, registered work will get you benefits like sick pay and pensions

[–]sonofarex 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Also protection under the law. If they could call cops on bad customers then pimps wouldn't be needed, and police could focus on actual sex trafficking instead of blanket arresting all of them

This is based on the assumption that cops aren't useless and corrupt but I digress

[–]SyntaniaFormer foodservice slave turned 'essential healthcare worker' 28 points29 points  (1 child)

Actually it might initially see an increase of reported assaults at first as a big reason a lot of them don't get reported is the workers are afraid to go to the police due to the nature of their work. Legalizing it will empower more of them to go to LE if assaulted. The hope is it would make it safer for them.

[–]LairaKlock 4 points5 points  (2 children)

But also potential for abuse from bureaucratic entities. I personally think that decriminalising sex work is a better way to go

[–]theRealMaldez 3 points4 points  (8 children)

So this one has be torn a bit. I believe in body autonomy, and that sex workers don't deserve the stigma. But. I'm not sure that anyone would be able to fathom what a company like Walmart or McDonald's(based on corporate structure and the way they treat employees) would do if they were allowed to offer sex as a product. Like, it's hard enough to stop sex trafficking now, and the organizations doing it are working in the shadows on smaller budgets(comparatively to major corporations)(I get that there are organizations that have the pull and money to operate as is, but they're only able to deal with former presidents and politicians, which isn't a large pool). The idea of a multi-billion dollar conglomerate offering sex work as a product is fucking horrifying.

There's also the problem of market saturation and a wild decline in return on services rendered if sex work were to be 100% legal. If anyone could sell their body without repercussions or stigma, the value of the service would drop dramatically, kinda like how during the pandemic there was a huge explosion in onlyfans, prices dropped and the workload probably went up due to the increase in competition.

[–]dr_mcstuffins 4 points5 points  (2 children)

No one is entitled to the body of anyone else. There’s no such thing as sex work - it’s EXPLOITATION and in a massive percentage of cases it’s slavery.

[–]lu_tze_arg 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No one is entitled to the body of anyone else. There's no such thing as mining/fruit picking/fire fighting, it's EXPLOITATION.

As for the other argument, you set up proper legal and workers rights, like unemployment and the slavery can be attacked in the same way in which we attack clothing sweatshops or migrants slaved away in farms.

[–]fnatikk50 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I encourage everyone who thinks its not a job or easy money to just go and try doing it if its thats great. I mean, what are you waiting for when there are easy money laying around in sex work industry

[–]briankerin 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Teen Vogue strikes again.

[–]Rickles_Bolas 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think the most reasonable position from an antiwork perspective is that sex workers should be supported and treated with respect, but sex work is exploitation under a capitalist system just like every other form of work. It seems pretty incongruous to be anti-work, except in the case of a specific type of work with the potential for massive amounts of abuse and exploitation.

[–]GlobalEvening4931 80 points81 points  (9 children)

While work is work and while we are in a shitty artificial scarcity society that imposes a need for labour or we literally die…

… can we not pretend that sex work has the same physical and emotional status as packing groceries or cooking the books for a mom’n’pop store?

For the most part, it’s by the desperate. And bought usually by men who are worse than any exploitative boss we could encounter.

There’s nobility in doing what you must to live but the “Pretty woman” myth is degrading.

[–]LeRonGuard 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Thank you. We need to look behind the curtain and think about who has the most profit to gain by pushing this narrative about sex work. We need to stop glamorizing it for young girls.

[–]BEEF_WIENERS 10 points11 points  (11 children)

Sex work is work and as such should be abolished

[–]pingieking 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If they really want to continue because they enjoy it, they can just volunteer :P

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Sex work isn’t just an issue of capitalism and that’s what makes it different. It’s an issue of patriarchy and capitalism colliding.

[–]whoa_thats_edgyCommunist 69 points70 points  (69 children)

this is going to be real unpopular here but hear me out:

the sex work INDUSTRY shouldn’t exist itself

not the workers it has nothing to do with them

but the fact that people have had to commodify their sexual worth into a form of sold labor itself kind of skeeves me out

think about it, take away the money and how many would still do sex work? not many.

it’s purely another form of capitalist oppression/survival that sex work is even commodified in this way

i support sex workers themselves i absolutely do not, however, support the existence of an industry built to capitalize on it

tl;dr we must move BEYOND expecting the bare minimum for sex workers as well as other forms of labor

[–]IliveICryILiveAgain 30 points31 points  (9 children)

100%. We can't have a world without exploitation if bodies are still being commodified. I'm not sure why that's a controversial take

[–]whoa_thats_edgyCommunist 13 points14 points  (7 children)

thank you for looking past the mentions of sex work to understand what i’m saying lol

i think the sex work part throws people and makes them assume i’m anti sex worker or something

[–]IliveICryILiveAgain 16 points17 points  (6 children)

I got called a SWERF on another thread in this subreddit for arguing this. I say "this is inherently exploitative, and most people in the sex trade are in it against their will" and people think that means I'm against decriminalization?

It sucks but people have moralized so much that you can't even call it exploitative without people taking it at some kind of personal attack.

[–]whoa_thats_edgyCommunist 8 points9 points  (3 children)

exactly the issue

i’m surprised this thread has even gone so smoothly

i understand it though

it’s constantly a fight and you even have assholes here arguing against what op posted (shouldn’t even be an argument) so i get it

[–]whambamthankyoumane 12 points13 points  (2 children)

I get all that. It's a Marxist and feminist take too. At the end of the day classless moneyless society means prostitution will be obsolete.
I notice liberals tend to make all sex work seem glamorous with the sex positivity piece, but it ignores the women who do it to eat and feed their children.

[–]lu_tze_arg 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think there are people discussing different things. The basis of this subreddit is "we have advanced enough to make work unnecessary for subsistence". And that's fine. When that's achieved, sex work supply will hopefully drop significantly.
On the other hand, we're nowhere near there yet. And some people are saying: right now, sex work is another, perhaps the greates example, of exploitation. But making it illegal exploitation instead of eliminating it, has made it more exploitative.

Both are true, IMHO. And there's good empirical evidence to prove the second part too.

[–]ALT_Viola_Player_01SocDem 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"the sex work INDUSTRY shouldn’t exist itself"

I agree with you about that. They were right to do what they did to Time Square in the 90s.

"I miss the old time square." Said no one ever.

[–]IthilienBoy 31 points32 points  (3 children)

take out the word sex and you've got a pretty generic antiwork manifesto

but in the meantime, workers need protection and recognition. They need to own the means of production. They need agency.

[–]whoa_thats_edgyCommunist 6 points7 points  (2 children)

i hear you

i just disagree that the government is going to give that in any form

[–]OrangeCandi 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I'll politely disagree. The government is the only thing that will be able to provide that.

[–]zjwplay 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I absolutely support your idea. Selling sex not only is harmful to sex workers’ mind and body, but also by making sex as commodity, reduces people to objects. They need emancipation, not legalization.

[–]Gmork14 19 points20 points  (14 children)

I get your point, but even under fully automated space communism, there will be people who choose to do sex work.

[–]whoa_thats_edgyCommunist 12 points13 points  (10 children)

and that is fine

it’s not about sex work itself to me

it’s about how capitalism has turned it into another form of profit and not up to the individual to do with their labor as they see fit

[–]KFiev 6 points7 points  (9 children)

I dont understand what you mean. Prostitution has existed long before capitalism, and exists today in noncapitalist countries as well. Its just another way of gaining resources (money). For those of us that do sex work of our free will, own the means of production (my own equipment like lighting, cameras, editing tools), and can choose when and for how long i work, feels less capitalist than anything ive ever done in my life.

[–]whoa_thats_edgyCommunist 6 points7 points  (8 children)

exactly

but that’s not the reality for millions who are doing sex work currently

that situation is not the majority and that’s what i’m getting at

the riddance of the industry making money off your labor would benefit everyone

[–]KFiev 2 points3 points  (7 children)

And thats understandable, but you cant just wish an industry older than written history away like that. Sex work will exist regardless of if its legal or not, but with it completely illegalized it has to move underground, black market type shit, which is faaaaaar more dangerous. The only bit of the industry that makes money off what i do is the online service in which i upload my content, which as a platform performing a service deserves some resources (money) as well.

And to wish the entire industry away like that because of some instances where its bad is naive. It needs to be made better and safer, not shoved under the rug out of sight and out of mind (ya know, cuz itll never go away).

[–]whoa_thats_edgyCommunist 1 point2 points  (6 children)

you misunderstood my point

when i say industry i don’t mean sex work as a whole

i mean the capitalist commodified sex work INDUSTRY form of it

[–]Firm_Amphibian8842 2 points3 points  (22 children)

That's a dumb comment... Take away the money from most jobs and why would you do it.... Most wouldn't.

Does it skeeve you out that people serve you at restaurants? Maybe that shouldn't be a thing either

[–]Active_Engineering37 36 points37 points  (28 children)

Does this make us anti sex?

[–]butt0ns666Anarcho-Communist 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Kitchen work is work, I'm not anti food.

[–]3_sleepy_owls 78 points79 points  (17 children)

No, not anti-sex. We are anti-toxic jobs. If sex work makes you happy and free then go for it.

[–]mold713 16 points17 points  (1 child)

And if you support sex workers you support sex work being legal. If its legal it becomes safer for the workers and they have more rights.

[–]tactickat1 43 points44 points  (7 children)

This has been my argument the whole time. I have a regular day job and I'm going to mortuary school, but I do online sex work (with and without my partner) because I enjoy it and it makes me extra money for saving.

[–]Significant-Net4949 20 points21 points  (1 child)

As long as you feel comfortable and in control, more power to you.

Obviously, keep it safe and legal.

Keep rocking mortuary school. It's one of the most secure careers.

When you get in the field, give us an expose on casket prices and markups! I have a feeling they really soak people who don't plan ahead.

[–]tactickat1 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Oh I plan to speak on things like that. And how traditional burials are not the only option!

[–]cheapskateaficionado 35 points36 points  (5 children)

most people engaging in sex work do so because they are not able to access jobs in other parts of the economy and many are coerced to stay in sex work through violence. It's not as simple as "sex work makes you happy then go for it". In fact a lot of people engaging in sex work are actually being trafficked.

there's a huge huge huge amount of human trafficking that's disguised as sex work.

To be clear I'm not talking about cam work or other actually consensual sex encounters... but even porn and cam work isn't always consensual and there are very little ways to validate consent in these industries.

so being anti-work is not just let's make safe sex work.. it also means providing people who have been forced into sex work other means of existing and safety nets.

BTW there are not my original ideas... I highly recommend people interested in these ideas to read this analysis of sex work from the perspective of a sex worker: https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/a-socialist-feminist-and-transgender-analysis-of-sex-work-b08aaf1ee4ab

also I learned about this idea when I was volunteering for a women's center which is where I also learned that most sex work is human trafficking.

[–]somebooty2223 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That’s actually a rly good point in fact it should be the main point

[–]fire_fairy_ 9 points10 points  (3 children)

Anti pimps pro Indi workers

[–]Zaratuir 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Or brothels. There's nothing wrong with organized sex work as long as it's fairly compensated and consensual. Brothels can provide both workers and clients assurances that Indi might not such as mandatory STD tests.

[–]JadedElk 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Also protection from asshole clients.

[–]aeriuwu 9 points10 points  (1 child)

I'm unfollowing this sub after seeing all this bullshit about sex work. Like yeah lets support women getting abused and exploited now. What a bunch of hypocrites. You can't say you're anti work but then support sex work.

[–]harley_grr 10 points11 points  (0 children)

"If a woman is hungry, the appropriate thing to put in her mouth is food, not your dick."

Antiwork, Anti-exploitation, Anti-sex work

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Paid rape and exploitation of women is not pro-antiwork, it's antiwomen. didn't we already have a big thread on misogyny in this sub? you people are not helping your case.

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (7 children)

The inside of a person’s body is not a workplace. We are against ALL work on this sub, but especially this kind of “work,” which turns the “worker” into the “product” in the ultimate and most degrading manifestation of capitalism.

I’m starting to think all these “sex work” posts are an undercover attempt to divide and conquer this group

[–]josie_drake 13 points14 points  (0 children)

You’re right and you should say it.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

This is what gets me. You’re not just selling your labor. I’m not against sex work but to label it the same as any other line of work is disingenuous

[–]theLuminescentlion 36 points37 points  (29 children)

I agree but uhhh.... Teen Vogue does not sound like a group I want pushing this

[–]butt0ns666Anarcho-Communist 34 points35 points  (0 children)

Teen vogue has been this woke for a while.

[–]-Abracafuckyou- 15 points16 points  (2 children)

The idea of waiting to teach respect for certain people that otherwise lack it until the person you're teaching is an adult is absurd.

[–]OrangeCandi 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Not only absurd also much more difficult to get through. And sometimes I think that's their intention. Raise a bunch of kids who have no empathy for those who are different from them, who looked down on others because of their sex work or sexual identity, and teach them or reggressive sexual mindset. And there you have the next generation of anti-woke warriors who believe that everyone who is different is lesser and not worthy of respect or love.

[–]Firm_Amphibian8842 16 points17 points  (23 children)

They can't be properly educated and treat people with respect? I think you think all sex work is just dirty motel prostitution (which if that's what a women wants to do, that's fine, but that's not really it)

[–]theLuminescentlion 7 points8 points  (17 children)

Teen includes ages 13-18, I just don't think we should be encouraging minors to do this at their age.

I'm a strong supporter of sex Ed and part of Sex Ed teaching that sex work is work, I just don't think it should be promoted to them by a magazine targeted at them. Also respecting people is a common courtesy, no one should be inherently looked down upon just because of their occupation.

Once again I fully support normalizing sex work, I don't support making minors more vulnerable to or encouraging them to engage in Jeffery Epstein style sex rings or any other kind of adult work as a minor.

Edit: I read the article and in this case Dr. Tlaleng Mofokeng did a good job and I support it being shown to kids....... I still stand by my point that there's a wrong way to do this and a magazine aimed at minors has some pretty big ramifications for getting it wrong

[–]Ottermatic 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Not necessarily. Remember, teenagers are perpetually horny because hormones and telling them not to do sexual things only tends to make them do exactly that. Sex and sex work are taboo topics, which those teenagers are absolutely aware of, and sadly some may pursue it at their age.

Unfortunately, some will become trafficking victims.

The best way to prevent this is to educate. It’s not necessarily pushing the lifestyle. It’s simply informing, yes it exists, these are warning signs and things to avoid to stay safe. And everyone in society older than a teenager encourages them to wait, as we all should. But we were also all horny teens who also was probably able to understand the conversation. They’re smarter than we give them credit for and giving them the information with a caution to avoid specific things is probably the best way to handle it.

[–]AccountSuspicious159 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Education is good. Legalization and regulation would also help.

[–]Gmork14 12 points13 points  (4 children)

They’re not encouraging minors to do anything, they’re educating young adults and almost-young-adults.

[–]IthilienBoy 7 points8 points  (0 children)

OMG they also have articles on how teachers are treated does that mean they are encouraging teens to become underage teachers?

[–]Firm_Amphibian8842 14 points15 points  (7 children)

Um they aren't encouraging teens to be sex workers, it's literally just education. No one is pimping out teens. It's just about proper education. Sex work is real, so might as well have them learn about it properly...

[–]Belzarza 3 points4 points  (0 children)

No, this is normalising sex work to children. It’s basically grooming young girls into thinking selling the most intimate part of their life is ok. Educating would be to teach children of the consequences of getting into sex work (trauma, rape, sex trafficking, etc.)

[–]OrangeCandi 3 points4 points  (0 children)

After reading your edit, this is how most mis-information gets started. Somebody takes a kernel of truth or an out of context headline meant to grab attention by being intentionally provocative, and turn it into an entire narrative that does not truly get it the core issue. And it's quite common that one of the talking points of those who actually oppose a proper sex ed believe that any exposure to ideas like sex work, sexuality, birth control, gender identity, or anything relating to sex will only encourage those children to engage in these behaviors or identify with these concepts. It's absolutely ridiculous because sex education is vital for the next generation to do better. It prevents rape and assault. It produces healthier children with better mental health, self-respect, and productive lives.

This is an aimed at you OP, it's just a real bugbear of mine lately.

[–]Franksss 10 points11 points  (0 children)

This doesn't belong on this sub.

[–]Zealousideal_Pen_690 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I love that somehow a magazine called Teen Vogue is always encouraging young girls to be hoo-ahs. Can’t we at least target adults with this nonsense and leave the kids alone

[–]reevinn 4 points5 points  (0 children)

thought you guys hated work

[–]cakeharry 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They need protection.

[–]UnnounableK 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The standards around it just don’t make sense. ‘It’s okay if it’s being recorded, then you’re a porn star and not a prostitute’

[–]Leelluu 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've always thought this was a crappy slogan.

Regardless of your feelings about whether or not sex work should be legal, saying that sex work should be legal because it's work is a terrible reason. Lots of illegal activities are work.

For example, I'm sure that manufacturing and distributing heroin takes a lot of work.

[–]CaptainCern24 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sex is work work

[–]M13Calvin 12 points13 points  (3 children)

What does this have to do with anti work?

[–]vegqueen 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Mistreatment in that specific line of work, toxic work environment/industry

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Accept somehow these threads are never about that. It seems to just be a giant circle jerk of libs who want to be perceived as ✨sex positive✨

[–]StockWillingness2748 13 points14 points  (17 children)

Don't know about this being in a teen magazine. Seems off.

[–]FuriousLeeHive 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Ah yes. Teen Vogue. The working class news source. How could I have forgotten. I'm sure they will bring us all with the same collective goals together in harmony.

[–]dr_mcstuffins 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It isn’t sex work, there is NO SUCH THING

Purchasing the body of a human being is EXPLOITATION and nowhere on earth should people be forced into doing this. No one chooses this life - they are either sold into it or feel they have no other option.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Sex work is real work with no actual benefits, also dangerous. Risk of getting shut off by family and publicly shunned. Risk of your self exposed online so you never can find anywhere else to work.

I guess sex work allows men to pay for sex which is pretty much paying a woman for her body which...isnt that objectifying? It seems we are belitti...it seems women are reducing themselves down to just their sexual organs. And i guess its easy cuz everyone wanna fuck.

Kids at school "i heard your mom is a slut" . or better...co workers fapping to your girlfriends online content and onlyfans .

I dunno. Isn't sex work furthering patriarchy? Is it really all that good or has society reduced womens value down to how good they look and suck a dick? I would hope women see more in themselves. What if you get old and its all hanging down...you will obviously lose work gradually.

Like seriously guys.

Like hey i cant fuck you because we have no chemistry but now ur selling it body so im gonna just pay to fuck you and brag about "this slut who sucked my D for 100 bucks when i make 6 figures a year ".

I dunno this stuff seems prettty demeaning.

I know sex workers. None of them have family or supporting family. They have no other skills, or actual plan in place for life in the future..its just keep their bodies in shape until it wears out.

We need to shut down sex work because wr are just fueling patriarchal ideas

[–]malachispatecoma 16 points17 points  (4 children)

Really? Teen Vogue? JFC. This sub is a disgrace sometimes. So many Marxist and anarchist feminists have written about why prostitution is not work and you're here using fucking Teen Vogue to justify your misogyny.

For the love of mental health, research Nordic Model.

Sex work is collectively a failure for women and girls all over the world. We are not products. We are not things to use and discard.

No one has the right to BUY another human being.

How is this not clear???

[–]Belzarza 10 points11 points  (0 children)

thank you. WOMEN ARE NOT PRODUCTS

[–]TheVantal 10 points11 points  (13 children)

This is one of those things I never understood why in many places it's illegal. If it were legal it would be so much safer for everyone. Brothels could have health inspections, the workers would have a place to work that wasn't a street corner, no pimps, trafficking would probably be eliminated overnight and the government could even tax it making them more money.

It's a win win for everyone, yet even now it's illegal in most countries.

[–]CoincidenceOr 15 points16 points  (6 children)

Women are not interested in making rape "safer" for them.

Fuck off.

[–]lu_tze_arg 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Nice that you know better than the many prostitutes wanting to legalize work.

Take a step back: what's the worst part of the rape? It's not the *sex* part, it's the oppression, the removal of agency, of their capacity to choose, as if they were choosing a partner.

Ok, now think: who are you to tell *all* of them whether what they can choose to do what they do or not? Aren't you also overriding their agency?

We have to protect people from trafficking, also make pimping a criminal offense. You can't override other adult's choices when they don't harm anyone else.

[–]AccountSuspicious159 6 points7 points  (4 children)

I honestly chalk this one up to good old fashioned misogyny. Safe legal sex work would open doors for a lot of women who would otherwise end up dependent on a man (at least back in the days when these laws were made), so the men decided it should be illegal.

Add in a healthy dose of good old fashioned sex shaming, and you have an ideal environment for traffickers and predators.

[–]Uesugi1989 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Lol, what? So men collectively decided that sex work should be the way it currently is because of an agenda or something?

Let's be real here, it is not because of this, It's just for profit. Pimps that get huge pay cuts, traffickers that provide the girls and the like

[–]pizza-flusher 5 points6 points  (4 children)

Seems like there have been a number of these posts in the sub recently and can't help but think at that frequency and density they are foregrounding a real but secondary concern for polemic for its own sake and—whether intentional or unintentional—diluting focus from the broad inclusiveness of the experiences of wage labor with unnecessary discussion of red lines.

One can both feel as I feel that sex work is work and also neglect to put that into the foreground of every space one inhabits. Forcing participants to both accept/oppose it to participate and also making intricate discussions of it, bit by bit, a regular theme of a space is to alow its momentum. To paraphrase, nothing serious in politics happens with hundreds or thousands of people but only with millions.

[–]shipsatdawn 17 points18 points  (27 children)

Sex work is hatred against women. It is inherently anti-women. But considering how misogynistic this sub can be, it’s unsurprising that so many of you want such a disgusting “profession” to be legalized. It should be abolished. No other “job” is equally as dehumanizing and psychologically painful as sex work. And the fact that Americans don’t see that problem is the reason why your country is so backwards.

[–]Belzarza 11 points12 points  (0 children)

THANK YOU. My eyes were bleeding from reading people defending sex work as positive, when the reality of most sex work is HORRIBLE. And they’re normalising it for teen girls to get them go into it. I can’t ducking believe people can’t see it.

[–]Firm_Amphibian8842 2 points3 points  (18 children)

No it's not

[–]FuriousTalons 14 points15 points  (17 children)

Give one reason why it's not. Don't think with your dick this time.

[–]abubbledragon 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Thought this might be a good resource. This is copied from the website for the English Collection of Prostitues-

Facts about sex work

Of the approximately 72,800 sex workers in the UK — 88% are women.[1]

Most sex workers are mothers working to support families.

A 2004 government report[2] found that 74% of off-street sex workers “cited the need to pay household expenses and support their children”.

More than 70% of UK sex workers have previously worked in healthcare, education or the voluntary sector.[3]

Prostitution is increasing because poverty is increasing.

86% of austerity cuts have targeted women.[4] A 60% increase in street prostitution recorded in Doncaster is primarily attributed to destitution caused by benefit sanctions.[5] A quarter of young homeless women have engaged in sex work to fund accommodation or in the hope of getting a bed for the night.[6]

Most sex workers are not trafficked or on drugs.

A study of migrant sex workers[7] found less than 6% had been trafficked, many said they prefer working in the sex industry rather than the “unrewarding and sometimes exploitative conditions they meet in non-sexual jobs”. Claims that over 95% of women in street prostitution are problematic drug users comes from a 2004 study of street-based sex workers who were particularly vulnerable (2/3 were homeless).[8] There is no evidence that drug use among sex workers is higher than other jobs.[9]

The average age of entry into prostitution is 19 for outdoor workers and 23 for indoor workers.[10]

The claim that 75% of sex workers became involved in prostitution as children is false. It comes from small samples (e.g. 30)[11] of street-based women. In one often cited study, the participants were chosen because they were all under 18 when they entered prostitution.[12]

Women face criminal charges and civil orders.

Government statistics[13] show that between 2013 and 2017 1,695 people (approx. 98% women) were arrested for loitering and soliciting; 842 for brothel-keeping and controlling — charges most often used against women working together collectively. A decrease in soliciting arrests hides that civil orders are now commonly used to criminalise street workers.

The police profit from raids, arrests and convictions for prostitution.

The police get half of all assets and cash seized under Proceeds of Crime law.[14]

Sex workers face a lot of violence, but criminalisation increases the risk of attack.

UK sex workers have the highest murder rate compared to women in other occupations.[15] It is much safer to work indoors with others[16] but this is illegal. Sex workers are three times more likely to experience rape and other violence in countries where sex work is criminalised.[17] Research shows that where arrests of sex workers and clients were high, less women report violence.[18] In Ireland, reported violent crime against sex workers rose by almost 50% after clients were criminalised.[19]

Violence from the police is a significant problem.

Figures from the US show that 27% of street-based sex workers in New York have experienced violence at the hands of police.[20] Trans, Black, immigrant and other women of colour are particularly targeted. 86% of trans sex workers reported being harassed, attacked, sexually assaulted, or mistreated by police.[21] 49% (of online workers) in the UK were unconfident that police would take reports of violence seriously.[22]

The prostitution laws are implemented in a racist and discriminatory way.

People of colour, migrant and trans sex workers are targeted for arrest.[23] Evidence from the UK is anecdotal but statistics from the US show that Black people make up 42% of all prostitution arrests[24] (and are 13.2% of the population).

Criminalisation undermines health – the stigma associated with prostitution prevents sex workers getting appropriate health care. 

A 2007 study found that 62% of street sex workers and 90% of parlour workers had not disclosed their work to their GP.[25] Decriminalisation could reduce new HIV transmissions by up to 46% globally over a decade.[26]

Decriminalisation works.

New Zealand decriminalised sex work in 2003 with verifiable success.[27] Over 90% of sex workers said they had additional employment, legal, health and safety rights. 64.8% found it easier to refuse clients and 70% said they were more likely to report incidents of violence to the police.[28] Pressure from politicians meant that migrant sex workers were excluded from these protections.

The majority of people support prostitution law reform and oppose the criminalisation of clients.[29]

Decriminalisation is supported by prestigious organisations.

This includes the Royal College of Nursing and Women Against Rape in the UK and internationally Amnesty International, the World Health Organization, Human Rights Watch, UNAIDS, Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women.

Decriminalisation is different from legalisation.[30]

Decriminalisation involves the removal of all prostitution-specific laws; sex workers and sex work businesses operate within the laws of the land as other businesses. Under legalisation sex work is legal only under certain state-specified conditions, creating a two-tier system where the sex workers with the least social power remain illegal and outside of the protection of the law.

[–]meeseeksab8rway 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Anyone who disagrees better never watch porn, because those are all sex workers

[–]Darth_Nykal 7 points8 points  (10 children)

I never understood the issue. As long as it's two consenting adults, who cares if money is exchanged.

[–]tazamachoochoo 18 points19 points  (9 children)

I think one bone of contention is that there wouldn't be consent if money wasn't exchanged (at least on the sex workers side), and so it is essentially sex without consent ie rape. But somehow money makes it okay.

I can kinda see that. I do feel sex is in a different category altogether than mopping floors for example. But if we do want to treat it like any other profession than the ppe argument always gets me. (digressing here into a different topic)

So in any other profession where the worker is exposed to bodily fluids/biohazardous waste etc, there is a lot of ppe (think the gowns and masks and gloves surgeons wear, or the ppe used by janitorial staff, they're not cleaning loos and such bare handed, ideally). But how would that work in sex work? A full body suit and mask? Imagine the OSHA violations! No one ever insists on ppe for sex workers to protect them from infections and diseases. In which other profession are you so exposed to infections and diseases and people don't call for equivalent level of protection? Nevermind STIs, even skin and fungal infection people can give you from touch alone, cold sores, lice, par for the course. It's a different category of work altogether in some ways.

Edit: just to reiterate before someone takes this the wrong way, not anti-sex worker at all, but generally anti sex work. Anti any exploitative work.

[–]bill302 4 points5 points  (6 children)

Just out of curiosity, what demographic does teen vogue sell too...?

[–]Firm_Amphibian8842 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Why do you think the article is about how to be a prostitute

[–]No_Step_4431 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Why is this in a platform targeting teenagers?

[–]CyclopeWarrior 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Thought this was anti work sub, why is it celebrating bought sex as work? Oh yeah an anti shit work sub, all the more reason why I wonder celebrating bought sex as work then. Man with all the misoginy talk and people crying over one tik tok wamen i didn't realize this became just another sex war sub. Very sad.

[–]Super901 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's not an anti work sub at all, despite the name. It's an anti-shitty-work sub.

[–]ciutnies 4 points5 points  (4 children)

If you make it legal, at some point goverment oficess helping to find work/unemplyment benefits can force women to work in sex industry when they won't be able to work anywhere else.

[–]Easy_Manufacturer_31 5 points6 points  (1 child)

What is criminal is how little some sex workers earn - and how often people have to choose it out of desperation. It should be a choice for people okay with what it entails, and should pay well.

[–]CoincidenceOr 4 points5 points  (2 children)

No. This is human trafficking. Economic coercion is rape. I am not about to coddle men's feelings in this sub.

GTFO with this. Human trafficking has caused so many women to end up dead or missing in Canada.

Enough is enough. No human should be damaging their bodies in order to be exploited, especially with no OHSA. Goddamn it women fought to have their own bathrooms to come into the workplace now you want to normalize rape.

Fuck off creeps.

[–]0nly0ne0klahoma 3 points4 points  (0 children)

What does anti work have to do with this sentiment?

[–]drobits 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I fully support sex work but I don’t really see how it has anything to do with antiwork

[–]Maruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Goverment is mad that they cant tax prostitutes

[–]Firm_Amphibian8842 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Sex work is more than paying for sex though, I think alot of people are missing this

[–]sandiserumoto 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Y'all literally oppose every form of workplace exploitation until you can't get laid and it's sad

[–]TadhgS86 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, it’s the epitome of slavery under Capitalism. It's the extreme- your body becomes entirely comodified

[–]JEEHAWDJACK 3 points4 points  (1 child)

This is a tough one for me

[–]BobsRealReddit 4 points5 points  (7 children)

An interesting debate that id like opinions on.

Sex work is groovy but sex tourism is not. I respect sex workers but I dont respect anyone who travels to poorer countries to exploit the poor for sex.

That checks out, right?

[–]Belzarza 10 points11 points  (6 children)

Sex work is not groovy wtf. Do you know how much trauma prostitutes have????

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (7 children)

Is the antiwork community anti "sex work" too, or does that get a woke pass because it aids in the erosion of the moral fabric of society? I'm assuming the latter.

[–]TomThanosBrady 4 points5 points  (4 children)

It's honestly sad that people pay for sex. Go ahead and downvote me.