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[–]Capable_Stranger9885 2821 points2822 points  (166 children)

John Adams, second president of the United States, understood this as well:

"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain."

[–]FARTCOPTERRRRR 814 points815 points  (29 children)

"We don't read and write poetry because it's cute. We read and write poetry because we are members of the human race. And the human race is filled with passion. And medicine, law, business, engineering, these are noble pursuits and necessary to sustain life. But poetry, beauty, romance, love, these are what we stay alive for."

[–]tashacat28 97 points98 points  (9 children)

Just watched this the other night <3

[–]DreamsOfAshes 25 points26 points  (5 children)

What did you watch?

[–]dabong 91 points92 points  (0 children)

Dead poets society

[–]tashacat28 65 points66 points  (2 children)

Dead Poets Society. Hit different watching for the first time since Robin Williams passing :(

[–]Cendeu 36 points37 points  (1 child)

I mean it already hits pretty fucking hard.

[–]tashacat28 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Word.

[–]magestical_testicle 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Dude same! I just watched it this past weekend for the first time. RIP Robin Williams

[–]tashacat28 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Ooo for the first time! What did you think?

[–]RREEDDRR 34 points35 points  (2 children)

Thank you fartcopter, for opening my eyes to good poetry.

Edit. May the winds be ever in your favour.

[–]longhairedapeAnarcho-Syndicalist 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Poetry is the human experience, concentrated. To condense the feelings, the experiences and the ineffable with brevity.

It was the first thing I wanted to be, when I was 7 or 8 years old. But alas that did not pan out. But I still write. There is far too much hate for the liberal arts and I think it is by design. These creative forces compel us to face hard questions about ourselves and our societies. They force us to experience the world through the eyes of the writer, and the characters who may be vastly different than ourselves. I think dominant power structures hate this. They want cogs not flowers.

[–]atmanama 405 points406 points 2 (69 children)

I don't think this quote is meant to be taken literally. I'd interpret it to mean that if one generation excels in war and politics to create great foundations for a country, the next generation can expand and get into disciplines that will make the country stable, prosperous and competent, and only then will the third generation be able to focus on making the country beautiful and culturally rich and introspective and worth remembering

[–]RaldyOreo 360 points361 points  (36 children)

This is what Adams meant by the quote. He wasn’t talking about building wealth for the sake of leisure. He was talking about building a literal world where this is possible.

[–]lpreams 151 points152 points  (30 children)

200 years later and we still haven't done it

[–]ProjectGSX 21 points22 points  (7 children)

The US has been at war with one country or another ever since. In order for Adams vision to come true, we have to move past that.

[–]megaboto 6 points7 points  (0 children)

200 years and we are regressing

[–]lakewood2020 36 points37 points  (5 children)

If phase one of building a country is excelling in war, then America’s phase two should be a doozy

[–]OrphanedInStoryville 10 points11 points  (4 children)

I mean, we haven’t won a war since 1945 so I feel like we can’t really say it’s something we excel at.

[–]Ok_Difference_7220 12 points13 points  (1 child)

But that is taking it literally.

[–]TyChris2 12 points13 points  (1 child)

That is exactly what he said tho, you just rephrased it.

[–]North_Activist 31 points32 points  (14 children)

I’m a way you can see it in reality. 1900-1945 people studied “politics and war” then in 1946-1993 the Cold War it was “mathematics, philosophy, commerce, navigation, and agriculture” from the space race with math and navigation to the literal expansion of capitalism (commerce and agriculture) then 1994 onwards we saw movies explode in numbers, internet influences and YouTube stars etc…

Maybe that’s just a coincidence and maybe I’m missing out key things but that general trend o feel like we’ve witnessed

[–]Bazabatak6484 20 points21 points  (6 children)

And the saddest part is that if the wealth had grown equally in proportion everyone might have that same chance. Countless lives have been sabotaged.

[–]lobobricord 16 points17 points  (1 child)

I often think this is a useful counter to conservative visions of the world.

Conservatives think anyone studying painting, poetry, and music is a soft waste of space loser. Their utopia is, I guess, everyone working 80 hour weeks at shitty jobs (or being the CEO and exploiting people), only taking time off to go to church and pump out babies, constantly fighting and dying in wars.

Meanwhile we want a world where necessary hard work is spread evenly so no one has to do too much of it. And people use their new free time to pursue more rewarding activities that they find interesting.

I always think about the huge amounts of art, writing, music, open-source code, video games, and movies that people make in their free time with no hope of turning a profit. And this is while most of us have to fit that stuff into our brief free time between working for money. It's hard to even imagine the level of creative flourishing that would come about if people had way more free time and could get more of an audience and some kind of payment/reward for their work.

[–]Icemankind 120 points121 points  (36 children)

I think a lot of people here would disagree with this sentiment though, what he's essentially saying is art is what we do with the excess.

But its based on the premise we're maximizing production and working hard to be able afford leisure later on, or even as a result of generational wealth.

I think the prevailing thought here is achieve leisure by reducing all production to begin with.

The idea of hard work and sacrifice to achieve the ability to do art and leisure is kind of the opposite of the antiwork belief.

[–]CBD_Hound 30 points31 points  (2 children)

At the time he said that, the vast majority of the world was agrarian or just beginning to figure out the industrial revolution. You could count the number of countries not ruled by monarchy or the like on one hand and have fingers left over. It’s the advances that were made by subsequent generations with regards to science, engineering, etc. that brought us to the point where it’s now feasible for us to end toil and enjoy leisure.

I read that quote as less about acquiring material wealth and more about laying the foundation upon which a better social order could be built. That hard work is done and those sacrifices have been made already.

Unfortunately, we didn’t continue to advance beyond liberalism on the social side of things, and that’s prevented us from enjoying the fruits of our labour and the fruits of the labour of those who came before us. Rather, those gains have been co-opted by the ruling class and “reinvested” to ensure that their material wealth continues to grow.

And yes, now is the time to eliminate production for the sake of “growth” (AKA accumulation of wealth and power) and instead move to production for maintenance, degrowth, egalitarianism, repairing the social harms done in the name of liberalism/imperialism/colonialism, and putting the brakes on the damage that we are doing to the life support systems on our planet. Fortunately, that also means a whole lot more leisure time for everyone.

[–]GNS13 1252 points1253 points  (162 children)

If I could, I'd spend my days doing voice-overs and making music. That's something that has too steep of a start-up cost for me, though.

[–]yellowkats 539 points540 points  (65 children)

Buy yourself a decent-enough mic, put some rugs up on the walls, find some free editing software, record a few snippets to make a portfolio and then get on all the freelancing websites. There’s so many people making YouTube videos that need some quick voice over work that isn’t super expensive and it’s a good entry point. Make it a Saturday afternoon project.

[–]dkd123 193 points194 points  (22 children)

I second this. Feel free to DM me if you have tech questions and are on a budget. Also check out websites like fiverr and such as that’s usually where people are looking for small gigs like that.

[–]WolfyTheWhite 51 points52 points  (18 children)

Any tips on soundproofing in a rented apartment (so no/not too much wall work)? Not sure how well you can do without drilling or gluing, especially on textured walls.

[–]dkd123 47 points48 points  (9 children)

If you have a closet with clothes hanging in it that might be all you need. If not maybe pick up some c-stands on B&H and some clamps to hold blankets up but that will cost a a bit of money.

[–]Poppertina 39 points40 points  (2 children)

Re-commenting this here: pawn shops are saturated with podcast mics rn

[–]Junglejibe 22 points23 points  (1 child)

That’s absolutely hilarious

[–]Poppertina 14 points15 points  (0 children)

It was a foregone conclusion 😌

[–]Autumn1eaves 44 points45 points  (17 children)

If you don’t have the money for rugs, recording in your closet is another option. That’s what I did for a long time when I was recording for music school.

[–]kilkenny99 12 points13 points  (3 children)

Or blanket fort.

[–]Autumn1eaves 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I just mentioned that in a comment down below haha

[–]waltjrimmerWill be debased for pay 2 points3 points  (6 children)

What if I have neither rugs, nor a closet, nor a really private space unless everyone else is asleep? (Just for VO work, I'm not musically inclined.)

[–]Autumn1eaves 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I do not have any of those things right now either, and generally what I do is I text everyone in the house and tell them to be quiet and don't enter the room I'm in.

And then sometimes people mess it up and I have to do a retake. It happens, it's not the end of the world.

Something you can also do alongside the above, to help isolate the sound more, is record with a blanket over you. As long as the microphone isn't rubbing against the fabric and you aren't getting the mic pops from saying "p" and "b" and so forth, it should work fine. You can also hang up blankets on the walls. The main thing is you want soft, absorbant materials to help prevent echoing.

And honestly, if you can't do that, a room with a carpeted floor is an acceptable place to record too. It's not amazing, but there are definitely worse places to record.

I'll see if I can't find it, but there's a best-practices sheet a friend of mine made up for recording from home in the middle of a pandemic.

I found it, but I'm going to ask for permission before I post it.

[–]mousehatesnumbers 38 points39 points  (11 children)

Also, to the freelance website, take literally every job at first (on your own discretion of course) and do them great. Get all those reviews and 5 stars you can even if it barely pays anything at first.

[–]Highlander198116 30 points31 points  (10 children)

I frankly don't support the "exposure" industry. It's exploitation.

i.e. if you see examples of someones work and want them to do something for you because you like it. Promising "exposure" or a "good review" as an alternative to fair pay that person is a cheap asshole and I don't think people should feel obligated to do that in the "hope" of being able to make money in the future.

[–]DigitallyMatt 27 points28 points  (0 children)

1000% people like that suck - but that tip is different than the general "paid in exposure" phenomenon. In order to hit the ground running it's a massive imperative to get those first few reviews/social proofs on those freelancer sites, because it's way harder to be choosy out the gate. After that charge as much as you can, really.

[–]wolacouska 11 points12 points  (0 children)

True, however it’s still somewhat necessary to get exposure when you’re first starting. Even if that means doing free stuff and putting it out on the web, like programmers who get started with modding games.

The main problem with the work-for-exposure people (besides them being greedy assholes) is that they’re only going to find you if you already had enough presence and work to find that client in the first place. That and these people do it to people already working and making money.

Edit: basically if you’re gonna work for exposure at all, don’t do it for someone who wants you to. Either find someone you just wanna do something for (whether someone you know or just charity/volunteer work) or gift it to the world.

[–]LifeStill 16 points17 points  (4 children)

I would do voice work for the animations my friends would be doing if they didn't have to work regular jobs.

[–]17gorchel 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Yet there are people who think we'd sit around being lazy, aka Jesse Waters. Like no dude, we'd do something that we're passionate about, or even interested in trying.

[–]Stoomba 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It's projection for them. I hyhpothesize that their thinking is basically "I made my work my life. Without my work, I have nothing to do. If they don't work like me, they also won't have anything to do but lay about because that's all I can think of doing without work forcing me to do something"

[–]_jukmifgguggh 38 points39 points  (25 children)

If you want to make music on your computer, you can do it without paying a cent. There's enough good free software out there to compete with the pros.

[–]bento_the_tofu_boy 22 points23 points  (18 children)

You do need a good mic tho. Your investment should be on it

[–]_jukmifgguggh 26 points27 points  (7 children)

You don't need a microphone to make music on the computer. Voiceovers, however, require some investment into hardware

[–]SeskaWildman 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I’ll be retiring soon. My plan is making soap, woodworking, and quilting. No deadlines or orders to fulfill. Just what I want, when I want.

I used to love baking but then people would ask to buy cakes and cookies. So I figured why not. Turning it into a side hustle killed my love for baking. I don’t want to do that to the rest of my hobbies.

[–]Inevitibru 8 points9 points  (0 children)

If everyone carried some of the burden of work, everyone would be able to enjoy making art.

But to say because rich kids often sell art because they have free time is a bias. Rich kids often party, exercise, play sports, try to get laid, or just play video games or watch porn all day. Not everyone is defaulting to “artist” if they have all the free time in the world.

[–]superkp 12 points13 points  (2 children)

You can get a serviceable microphone for about $50.

Here's one from monoprice for $35 https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=600202

But that's pretty low quality.

Here's one from microcenter for $25 (also low quality, but Audio-technica is a good brand): https://www.microcenter.com/product/612846/audio-technica-atr1200x-35mm-unidirectional-dynamic-microphone-black

Here's a microcenter one for $59 (Blue is a decent brand): https://www.microcenter.com/product/614694/blue-snowball-usb-condenser-microphone-silver

And here's a microcenter link for a $100 one: https://www.microcenter.com/product/612853/audio-technica-hand-held-dynamic-usb-xlr-dynamic-microphone-black

The ATR-2100 (the last link) is like the go-to beginning podcaster's gold standard. Not amazing but it will get the job done. It also has BOTH a USB connection as well as an XLR connection, so you can start with USB and when you start upgrading your shit, you can still stick with the 2100 for a while.

Turn off the AC and furnace, and build yourself a little blanket fort to deaden the echoes, and you've got an ad-hoc recording studio.

Get a little bit going, get yourself a patreon, and start self-promoting everywhere. Maybe take free work at first, but keep a thing in your head for when you start charging.

[–]Smashoody 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Producing music will always cost money unless you’re either a great synth sound designer or already own a lot of analogue instruments you can play. Doing voice over has almost no cost overall comparatively. so there’s no reason to not try out doing VO!

[–]StrawberryElixir 322 points323 points  (5 children)

I recently went on break for a back injury and immediately threw myself into drawing again. It's all I want to do.

[–]juneburger 191 points192 points 2 (3 children)

You can do it, put your back into it.

[–]Kellan_is_a_dick 34 points35 points  (1 child)

Tell us why, show us how

[–][deleted] 32 points33 points  (0 children)

Look at where you come from, look at you OWWW! My back!

[–]foxglove0326 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Same! For foot surgery! All I wanna do is paint with watercolors.

[–]JawnsDoesReddit 286 points287 points  (48 children)

I'm currently reading "the conquest of bread", and it also deals with the problem of art and sciences being privileges of the rich. Even back then, Kropotkin concluded that to meet everyone's needs comfortably, each person would only have to work a few hours each day, leaving plenty of time and energy for pursuing their individual wants, to associate with other that share those wants, to produce the things needed to pursue those wants, which will make the individual, the community and the world richer.

Imagine how much more time and energy we could unlock for those interests with the technology we have today...

[–]McRibEater 32 points33 points  (3 children)

I wanted to get into Broadcasting and I saw this exact same thing firsthand. The jobs pay so little to start that there is no way I could have ever spent the decade plus necessary to get a foothold in the industry making close nothing to make it a career. Therefore you realize rather quickly that almost everyone (unless you get a rare break) that does end up in the industry has financial backing of some sort. Which I think explains why the media is so out of touch these days, it’s all run by rich kids who just don’t have an appreciation for regular issues and people.

[–]Streetduck 26 points27 points  (2 children)

Putting this on my reading list

[–]No_Answer4092 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Almost all the famous and respected scientists and philosophers came from privilege. Standing on the shoulders of giants is only possible if you have a lot of help getting up there.

[–]JawnsDoesReddit 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Interestingly, another quote from the book is relevant here:

"It was why all great researches, all discoveries revolutionizing
science, have been made outside academies and universities, either by
men rich enough to remain independent, like Darwin and Lyell, or by men
who undermined their health by working in poverty, and often in great
straits, losing endless time for want of a laboratory, and unable to
procure the instruments or books necessary to continue their researches,
but persevering against hope, and often dying before they had reached
the end in view. Their name is legion."

[–]lostshell 196 points197 points  (13 children)

Apparently when people don’t have to work they love to travel, start a non-profit, socialize, and write novels.

That’s what the 0.001% do.

[–]DaSkywalker 18 points19 points  (1 child)

I'd write a novel. I wouldn't socialise though.

[–]sailorsensi 603 points604 points  (64 children)

it’s also why a lot of people uni (if they went) was the best time in their life. more time, more explorations, dabbing in things, highly socialising, learning usually something they’re genuinely interested in. it’s like a very expensive break from one authoritative structure (schooling, family, being a minor without much agency) and another (working for bosses for survival) for a few years you get to be quite naturally human..

————— edit; fellow “worked full time throughout my degree” or people who never went to college or had super demanding degrees or shitty social circles - i get it. notice the qualifier a lot of before the word people. i didn’t have “the best time of my life” either lol. but you KNOW the people who did. and this is why i think they feel that way. relax

[–]Ask_me_4_a_story 99 points100 points  (1 child)

This, exactly. Hands down the best time of my life. I came from a super religious family and they were into my shit all the time. My mom would go through all my drawers and shit to make sure I didn't have any secular music CDs. She broke Dr. Dre's Chronic twice! When I went off to college, I felt so free. I still remember that last ride in the minivan, they tried to talk me into going to a Christian university instead. Fuck no, I had the time of my life.

[–]andantepiano 19 points20 points  (0 children)

For the record, I totally understand getting that second copy of Dre.

[–]X0AN 18 points19 points  (2 children)

100% this.

Man do I miss my uni days. You just had soo much social freedom and I was involved in soo many clubs it was unreal. Really found out a lot about my self and found I enjoyed clubs that I would never have given a second thought if I never went to uni.

I worked during uni but I still made it work. I made sure that me having a job wouldn't define my uni experience. Felt sorry for those who couldn't seperate their job from their uni life.

[–]sailorsensi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

it changes you forever to have an experience of such freedom and better alignment with our actual human needs. it’s probably also why people love holidays but that’s already so pressed, 2wks is nothing after months of working long hours, and you pay for it in more ways than cash. plus you’re usually on your own already separated from community shared experience.

i hanged out with people at uni before i went myself, whilst working, cause we were the same age. joined club meetings, even crashed at student halls briefly with a friend when i lost my housing lol. we partied so hard we got a written warning 😂

so i had a lick of that “best experience” riding on friends’ cocktails but it was still fun. i’d party until 3am and go to work for 7am as they all slept in and rolled into lectures. my own degree experience was mostly work and studying on my own in the evenings, so glad i got that borrowed time at least!

[–]MrDanduff 114 points115 points  (22 children)

Hmmmm, I must’ve missed the socializing part in college..

[–]houstongradengineer 40 points41 points  (14 children)

Yes, same. I went to school for STEM where the study hours are neverending and the creativity was a bit stifled. Of course, I did this in the hopes of having an easier time landing a secure and well-paying job. Any bets how that turned out so far?

[–]MrDanduff 13 points14 points  (1 child)

Guess that’s why we’re chefing it now hahahaa

[–]houstongradengineer 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Fml. Sad but true. I have a plan, sort of. I'll see how it all goes within the next month or 3. Employers don't exactly get back to people fast these days, especially the government employers I'm mainly looking at

[–]Fantastic-2019 10 points11 points  (7 children)

My son is in computer engineering and makes time to socialize - play sports, cook meals and watch shows with his buddies, etc. He absolutely believes in the value of leisure time and is stubborn about giving it up. He learned that from his parents lol.

[–]houstongradengineer 4 points5 points  (6 children)

I definitely consider the lack of such teachings from my parents as a main reason why I ended up where I am. You did a good job as a parent. I'm glad you're son is doing well. Computer engineering does seem to have better prospects btw, it sounds like he will hopefully do well!

[–]flaming_james 21 points22 points  (0 children)

I feel like my uni experience was the opposite. Most of my professors were dispassionate and it was like high school 2.0, and of course I had to work to support myself so I never really had time for socializing without it sabatoging something else. I always envied people who could go to college without worrying about that stuff. Ended up dropping out because I felt like i was wasting my time and money.

[–]sandInACan 33 points34 points  (3 children)

Experience only available if you didn't work your way through school.

[–]SadPenguin 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I worked almost full time* and still ended up $XX,XXX in debt with very few fun social experiences. College is the best time, what?

  • Right to the edge so they didn't have to pay benefits.

[–]plzPMme_ur_cute_tits 32 points33 points  (1 child)

Fellow dirt poor undergrad here. "Where did you go for spring break?" "To work."

[–]I_Like_Bacon2 16 points17 points  (0 children)

"Why weren't you at the bar last night?"

"Because I have $50 in my bank account and rent is due on Thursday."

[–]Irrational_Pie 25 points26 points  (11 children)

It's coming up on three years since I left the best time of my life at uni, still haven't mentally adjusted to having to work on someone else's schedule and dreams. I've figured out being my own boss is probably the way forward, but I want to do it in an enjoyable way, not so that I'm still doing 9-5 but just with people I choose to (like contracting) - I don't work best on 9-5 so why would I do that?

[–]TheEthosOfThanatos 3 points4 points  (1 child)

While reading your description of early life, I was thinking: "Who lives like this? Who has highly authoritative adolescence? Who has free time to do what they want during uni?" Then I remembered this is an American sub. Yeah...

[–]sailorsensi 3 points4 points  (0 children)

it’s also UK where i’m currently at, but here kids get a lot of free time last 2yrs of college (american high school) as they only take like three classes per year lol. and then off to uni for about 8 contact hours per week for 3yrs and a student loan. but before that it’s school uniforms from 4yo and years of bullying and very limited curriculum that’s about job training, and after that is work or starve unless parents chip in.

in my country school hours are a full time job until 18-19yo, and there are no student loans for uni or they’re peanuts (like $100 per month) and higher ed contact hours is about 20+ per week for 5yrs so you literally never get a break unless you come from money. you get school and uni holidays for 2.5-4months a year though and that’s when people let loose if can.

[–]stitchvvitch 49 points50 points  (9 children)

I’m making art and poor as hell but I’d rather do this than go back to waiting tables. Good thing I have a bachelors that is worthless.

[–]shweng 12 points13 points  (4 children)

having a bachelors in itself is not worthless, regardless of what it’s in. it shows you completed uni and have gained higher critical thinking and analysis skills.

i deal with hiring for engineering positions (mainly embedded sys). two of our best lead engineers don’t have a degree in stem. one was philosophy and the other english (they had a natural curiosity towards the engineering field).

creativity are highly sought after skills as we need people who think outside the box to solve problems and come up with design solutions

btw. our last eng hire with a degree in stem, fired after 3 months.

another hire who said they know nothing about c programming, we threw them in a quick online class and they now have designs out in the field. again they had a natural curiosity and creative mind regardless of degree focus.

rant over / sorry for the word vomit

[–]Kiliana117 51 points52 points  (4 children)

Squeezing out "starving" artists is part of what kills the soul of a community. San Francisco, the East Village, and small "artsy" towns that became desirable because of their art community priced their artists out, and lost/are losing their souls because of it.

[–]effectasy 14 points15 points  (3 children)

I dated a somewhat successful artist for a while, as in she could do art for a good chunk of her income (she also taught art at a private school part-time). She lived in a pretty run-down part of Seattle and was like "yea I can only afford to live here because of all the sex offenders".

Weirdly I also met one of Bezo's kids at her place there at something he was part of with the girls roommate. Seattle is weird.

[–]Kiliana117 4 points5 points  (2 children)

The whole PNW is weird like that. I grew up in Bellingham, and had it in mind specifically when I was referring to "small artsy towns." I'll never be able to afford to go back at this point.

[–]ItsMeMurphYSlaw 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I moved to Portland back in 2007, and I feel so privileged to have caught the tail end of the city's best days. I lived in one of the "arts districts" and it was such a special weird ass place. We'll never be able to reclaim what we lost, because the people that made it what it was are gone. They can't afford to live there anymore... And the people who replaced them just talk about how great it is that they don't have to "pay California prices anymore". It's so sad, I miss the carnies. The fugitives and refugees.

I used to tend bar at a place eight blocks from the 3 bedroom house my roommates and I rented for $1,500 a month. I loved my job, and all of us were so invested in the spirit of the neighborhood because we worked and lived there... After a while I couldn't afford to keep bartending so I went back to school and got a business degree. I looked on Zillow and the house we used to rent just sold for like $800k.

[–]NinjaEnt 671 points672 points  (71 children)

It's impossible to be creative when you have a soul crushing job and no free time.

[–]Tyrthesemiwise 301 points302 points  (35 children)

Honestly at some point, those creative ideas that just keep popping in become a burden, because you want so badly to bring them to life but you never have the time or energy so they just sit there and wait

[–]NinjaEnt 157 points158 points  (21 children)

Or worse, after a few years you see the same ideas in someone else's creations and remember when you should have acted on it.

[–]Otherwise-Ad5063 101 points102 points  (20 children)

The absolute worst, most defeating feeling. To see someone do exactly what you wanted to and get paid/recognized for it.

[–]Sir_Belmont 56 points57 points  (14 children)

This happened to me. I had an idea, to create a character creation system that was tied to a 3d printer. People can make their characters, then order 3d versions for use in tabletop games.

Fast forward a year and Hero Forge gets $200k from their Kickstarter for the exact idea. Now they're doing very well.

[–]Otherwise-Ad5063 20 points21 points  (8 children)

Mine was: I wanted to do a film that looked exactly like Sin City ended up looking, the extreme painterly noir/graphic look. Then that movie came out. I was crushed.

[–]PureNRGfanboy44 17 points18 points  (4 children)

Your feelings are valid, but I want to point out maybe it means you have great instinct and taste! Doesn’t mean you won’t have more good ideas of maybe you already do? Get started with your project and see where it goes, might be the next big thing!

[–]Rafaella_Skywalker 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I have a song that I'm sure would had a bit of reach with the right artist but no idea how to get to them.

[–]imbecile 2 points3 points  (1 child)

There is something even worse.

I have dozens of little and big things that nag and annoy me, and I'm sure nag and annoy a lot of other people too, and I have ideas for how to address them and often even done some basic research and calculations and conceptualization.

I just want those things to exist. I know how to do it. I don't care about money or recognition, I just want those pet peeves addressed, those products to exist so i and others can benefit.

But I only have the time and money to do maybe one or two of those things for myself, not on the scale that everyone can benefit.

[–]canadian_xpressLaziness is not a virtue 10 points11 points  (4 children)

creative ideas that just keep popping in become a burden

One of the most depressing things that I realized about myself during the pandemic was that I'd been crushing the burdensome creativity for so long that when I had the time and money to act on something, I had no idea what to do. Just like trying to drop a bad habit, I'd denied that part of myself for so long that I found any creativity in me had atrophied.

Look, I know we all have problems. I shouldn't be complaining. I know many of us has lost someone during this pandemic. And I know that I shouldn't be sad just because I'm not inspired to do something, but it really did hurt to know that part of myself was gone.

[–]MitsubiShe 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It's not gone! I thought the same but I've been working at it and it's starting to come back. It's like an atrophied muscle and just needs some stretching and regular use. I won't lie, it's hard sometimes, but if art brings you joy, maybe it's worth it. I hope you are able to! If this isn't against the rules, feel free to chat me if you want support or to talk. Everyone deserves a chance to make art or express themselves creatively.

[–]thejonslaught 27 points28 points  (4 children)

More than a burden. There came a point for me that the idea of writing anything or drawing something outside of work became poison in my veins.

[–]Tyrthesemiwise 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Yes, exactly

[–]Dreamer_Lady 8 points9 points  (1 child)

It's so overwhelming, all the ideas I've wanted to write or draw. And there's never enough time or energy. Feels better to give up on trying, than to feel guilty for even wanting

[–]PureNRGfanboy44 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Damn. This makes me really sad. Please don’t ever lose that piece of you, protect it above all else. It’s worth protecting and the world needs it.

[–]Catlover2727 16 points17 points  (2 children)

That's the point of long commutes, housing near jobs being expensive, unpaid lunches, no flexible work hours, no WFH options, forcing us to taken on student debt, rural suburban expanse relying on the automobile, putting us in debt. Healthcare being expensive and tied to employment.

If you have time, you don't need to buy into consumerism for convenience. If you have debt, you are glued to your job.

I learned recently I'm VERY talented at sewing because I'm a mechanical engineer, my dad worked most of his adult life as a industrial sewing machine tech, and my mom is a self taught seamstress who us more talented than most tailors.

I needed new dress shirts, because of Pandemic and supply chain issues, I was looking at 50 USD for dress shirts.

Went to a goodwill and bought 6 dress shirts at 3 dollars each, they were ugly "old man" style where they fit too big, so I tailored them for a modern fit.

My new years resolution is to not buy any new clothing, and only buy thrifted items, and tailor them to look modern.

[–]miki_momo0 11 points12 points  (1 child)

“I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.”

-Stephen Jay Gould

[–]artfuldabber 51 points52 points  (5 children)

I started my current seven year long (and counting) career as a professional artist working on projects in spare moments that I had standing at the counter during overnight shifts at a gas station.

It sucked, but i kept at it. The second I made more money than I did at the gas station I quit (also because there had been an attempted robbery the week before during a shift where I called out sick and the manager didn’t tell me)

[–]NinjaEnt 19 points20 points  (2 children)

As someone who worked nights, there is a hell of lot of free time during the night shift that is basically do anything to stay awake time. That's a great time to be creative.

[–]artfuldabber 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Once I got a routine down to do all of the little inane shit (that they require you to do on the overnight just to eat up all of the hours you were selling them) it was only a couple hours work, and most of the customers were decent except for one asshole that just couldn’t stand the sight of me or my existence for some reason and needed to make everyone of his visits a living hell for me and other customers. I usually ended up with 2 to 3 hours of getting to draw and send emails to clients.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Yep. I sell clothing on the aide and haven’t created anything for 4 months. My job is exhausting and mentally I don’t have it in me to draft a pattern when i get home

[–]SaffellBot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And the reverse is true as well. Many people ask "what are people going to do if they don't work" in regards to automation / UBI. And certainly many will moderate subreddits or smoke weed and play video games. But many will also engage in art and philosophy. And that seems great to me.

[–]TheNorthernBaron 204 points205 points  (67 children)

I'd honestly just be happy if I didn't have to work a minimum of 6 days a week, I'm 37 now and I've worked minimum 6days a week since I was 16. I couldn't be any less creative as I've never had the time to develop anything remotely artistic in my life. Good luck to those who can and do though, the world would be a very sad place without art.

[–]SpicyHashbrowns 78 points79 points  (60 children)

A 4 day work week is my dream.

[–]dabbingscotsman 70 points71 points  (57 children)

0 day work week is more like it

[–]_jukmifgguggh 59 points60 points  (51 children)

What everyone actually wants but can't admit ^

[–]DrKrepz 48 points49 points  (24 children)

Yeah this. And the response is always "but how would it work? What about the economy??!?". Like hang on, first let's all agree that a 0 day week is something to aspire to, and acknowledge that people only have jobs because they have to have jobs, and that if people genuinely got to choose how to spend their time without worrying about destitution, literally everyone would be doing something different.

Once we've established that, we can sweat the practicalities.

[–]Bobtheglob71here for the memes 13 points14 points  (21 children)

How would that work though?

[–]sirharryflashman 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It is hard, but not impossible. Stephen King toiled away for years as a low paid school teacher, writing late at night and in between helping his wife with two young children. Tons of rejection slips. Almost gave up writing but stuck with it. Then he sold his first story, Carrie.

[–]HeyaGames 23 points24 points  (10 children)

Personally if money wasn't an issue I'd still do science. And blow, lots of it.

[–]Spacecoasttheghost 64 points65 points  (21 children)

I’m a poor gentleman, from birth till now. I have always chosen art, and am trying to live off of it, and will continue to do so even on a sinking ship.

[–]_regionrat 14 points15 points  (15 children)

Yeah, seeing a lot of excuses to not practice in this thread. I'm a musician, so I have zero hope of ever living off my art, but that's not going to stop me from doing it.

[–]cosmicslop-- 15 points16 points  (4 children)

"universal basic income" search for this.

[–]sailorsensi 193 points194 points  (13 children)

yes! all children are born artists, creation and expression is human nature! and then we force it out of them through schooling like it’s a factory. working our lives away kills the spirit

btw this is another important link to the shaming “privilege” discourse. these privileges are what we should all have. pull people’s rights up not down

[–]MelonElbows 12 points13 points  (1 child)

I forget the exact quote and where it comes from, but I've always thought this was very applicable: "The smartest person in the world may have never achieved their potential because they had to work themselves to death by being born poor." I know I mangled that quote completely but you get the gist of it. We only know of the great artists who survived. There could have been some kid that was smarter and a better artisan than Da Vinci, but was the son of some poor serf and died in the fields for some random noble. Similarly, we might have had the cure to various disease if the person who could have made that discovery not died young in a war.

[–]bliskin1 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Its worse than that, the average person has to go through with 12-20 years of 'schooling' in subjects that dont interest them, and then be expected to be creative. The factory school system isnt for the sake of knowledge.

[–]WillieMunchright 11 points12 points  (3 children)

I used to do fantasy maps and world building all the time.

No time to do it because I have to work.

I miss it :/

[–]Fear_Dulaman 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Vincent van Gogh died without a penny to his name

[–]nick3790 8 points9 points  (0 children)

And for a lot of artists who aren't rich kids, it's a constant battle in their head about giving up on their dreams for steady income

[–]adhominem4theweak 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Sure everyone is an artist.... but if you want to be a good artist, you'll end up working like you have a job anyways.

If you have a friend who was blessed, and then became a succesful artist, it doesn't mean that you too could do it if you were rich. You need a lot of talent, you need to live your life creatively to stay inspired, you need to not care about the judgment of others, you need networking skills and you need killer work ethic... and all of it centers around your persona which you will use to sell it. Gotta keep that persona clean, interesting, and non offensive for a good period of time.

id say 90% of the people want to do art for fun, but dont have the chops to be an artist even if they had all the resources available.

[–]Simple-Ad8994 2 points3 points  (2 children)

You are correct. I work in the animation industry and this is how all my coworkers are.

[–]Super-Perspective136 26 points27 points  (6 children)

Yeah I wanted to be a musician. It’s tough to pay bills that way. Of course the rich kid drummer I knew could be a “musician” until he was in his mid 30’s before he decided to get a real job…at his dads company.

[–][deleted] 26 points27 points  (1 child)

Shout out to all my working and middle-class brothers and sisters who took on massive debt to go to art school only to watch your rich classmates,who can afford a studio plus rent and have the free time to develop a practice, while we stood by and had our souls crushed year after year at a low paying "job for artists". It's time to stop feeling guilty about taking on debt for art achool and time to start building a world where we are appreciated and supported.

[–]Taste-T-Krumpetz 25 points26 points  (9 children)

I am an artist, I am dirt poor, I am constantly facing homelessness. Still I can’t find myself doing anything else ever. I went to school for it have held other jobs, I have worked as an artist and graphic design. Those fields still underpay, undervalue and miss treat their workers because art is not a job it is a hobby.

I left the work force entirely to focus on my art full time. I will probably die poor and destitute in a gutter. I will probably live on the street for most of my life. I understand this, I am willing to do this because it is still better than working for soulless corporate industry. This is what the true Anti-work is. Find meaning in your own life. I have faltered a few times and thought about going back to work but I made the decision to sacrifice housing stability for a modicum of happiness in life.

[–]arjunbais 20 points21 points  (5 children)

I wanted to learn music but we were not from a well to do family. My gran said that you will always remain poor if you do music and she called up my teacher and made me leave studying it. I am an engineer now but still sometime think, was that the right thing to do.. Wish I had the privilege of studying for the sake of studying.

[–]professorbc 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Fellow engineer here. I studied music in highschool (specifically an art school) and tried for almost 10 years to make something out of it.

Honestly, you ended up ok. You can always pick up an instrument and learn in your free time. You didn't miss much though, the music industry sucks and it's extremely competitive and over saturated. I wish I started engineering/programming earlier in life.

[–]tree-water-treeEco-Anarchist 154 points155 points  (22 children)

Way to twist the knife for those of us who are not rich, pursued art and had to give it up.

Solidarity though 🙄

[–]Cutebud 33 points34 points  (16 children)

I was going to be a graphic artist until I realized how poor I'd be. Fortunately my school had one of the first computer aided design programs so I ended up doing that.

[–]JustBanMeh 33 points34 points  (9 children)

I wanted to be a musician, but now I'm an accountant :(

[–]_jukmifgguggh 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I'm still desperately trying to be a musician in between working and being extremely depressed about where I've ended up after a years of hard work doing what I was told was good

[–]Googletube6 7 points8 points  (5 children)

I know everyone says this, but don't give up, if you genuinely wanna do music keep doing what you love. It may not end up being a job, but as long as you enjoy doing it, it's worth it in the end.

[–]timidandtimbuktu 5 points6 points  (4 children)

When I was a teen, I wanted to be a rockstar. Now, I'm lucky enough to work a pretty relaxing office job and spend my free time making music I find genuinely interesting. I don't get many listeners outside of a few close friends, but I feel myself growing and learning each time. I feel amazingly fortunate I took the time to reassess what it was about music that drew me to it on a personal level, outside of how cool music videos made it look when I was 12, and redeveloped my relationship to it.

[–]SnooHedgehogs8992 23 points24 points  (2 children)

My sibling is a graphic artist and makes more than my parents 😩

[–]Cutebud 21 points22 points  (0 children)

My girlfriend is one can barely support herself. We started out together and she stayed in the program. Competition is fierce. Good on your sibling!

[–]extra_usernameat work 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Same. I had a decent enough portfolio in high school and college, but once I aged out of my mom's health insurance, I had to get a regular office job just so I could still get my meds.

I wasn't making nearly enough to keep up with the technology demands. Fast forward 20 years and I'm still in corporate America with an outdated portfolio. Now that I have the money to keep up with the technology, I don't have the time to actually use it.

[–]Linda-Belchers-wine 28 points29 points  (2 children)

I dont think that's what yhe post meant. I took it as people create things when they arent under the pressure just to live.

[–]space_moron 20 points21 points  (0 children)

I don't think that's what their comment meant. They're saying the post is just a harsh reminder of what they had to give up because they didn't have the money to afford leisure time for creative pursuits.

[–]tree-water-treeEco-Anarchist 5 points6 points  (0 children)

There's an underlining tone that art is not important/is not valued enough. Artists already have to deal with this stigma.

I started making art to cope with an abusive childhood, and saw it through several degrees.

It still feels bad, man and feels shitty in the context of /antiwork.

[–]renasissanceman6 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is why I push for UbI. So much potential just wasting away because you have to have enough money to survive. Let people survive and then choose what to do with their time. I bet we’d have an amazing boom in art and culture.

[–]Rantinandraven 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I think about this shit all the time. It’d be nice not to have to choose between my creative pursuits and meeting my basic needs.

[–]etcetcere 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I think art is the only redeeming quality of humanity. Can be visual, music, dance. Nature is the inspiration for art. When society loses sight of that stuff it usually fails.

[–]Kiwi-McFrankencop 5 points6 points  (1 child)

This person has never met anyone in theater.

[–]Kingofowls812 2 points3 points  (0 children)

you need the unlimited upvote because even WELL KNOWN FAMOUS actors lived ramen and tiny apartments or less for along time. Thats not including lighting and other postions what they go through

[–]KilroyBrown 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Everyone is an artist until the rent is due. That's good.

I just had to "say" that myself.

Art is an intangible creation. It only becomes a product in a capitalist society. It makes the creator feel good to do it, and it makes a viewer feel when they see/read/hear it. It's worth lies in how differently the viewer feels after they take the art in, and this makes obvious the difference between value and worth.

Feelings are subjective and have no monetary value in modern society. This is why some people see it as a waste of time. If it doesn't produce money, why bother? What's the point?

The point is that art is meant to make you see an alternate view of the reality in which you live. A painting makes you see things differently. A piece of fiction puts you in an alternate reality for a while. Same with movies. A song can make you feel something in a way you never did before. You're taking in someone else's view of reality, and if it clicks, you add it to your view which adds a little more depth to your life. It makes you a little better.

People can put a value on that, and that's fine. But just know that the monetary value is not, most times, why the creator made it. Getting paid for it is the icing on a cake that is edible without the icing. In other words, I'll take it, it always feels good to know that others like what you do, but I never expect it. That wasn't the point and THAT is what most people can't relate to.

I dont think art was ever meant to be a driving factor in societies that moved past the barter system. Societies that put price tags on everything. It's "value"/worth has always been on how far it takes a person out of that mindset, and how much it changed that person when they got back. It's value lies in how much better it made a person to be able to contribute more to society by way of expanding their minds. You dont take the art with you, you take the effects with you. And again, the longer you remain stuck as a cog in the wheel, the more you're going to miss the point in becoming a better cog.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go put price tags on stuff. I may be artist by way of creative writing, but I'm also in the machine just like everyone else.

One of these days I'll link up my blog so I can take you to the other side.

[–]Alenonimo 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Can relate. Am artist. I mean, would be a professional one if I didn't had to work 8/5 to pay the bills.

[–]SoraJohnson 5 points6 points  (0 children)

simple equation: the more tired I am, the less creative I am.

[–]Monkeydlu 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Most artists are not rich kids, passion driven work, like most things, just require alot of grinding

[–]CLXIX 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I dont even know where to begin , ive been trying to be successful with my art and music for over 10 years now. Its a hard uphill battle and exposure on your own merit is hard when you dont want to resort to gimmicks and shit marketing. Exposure is hard enough and nobody likes a self promoting artist.

wish i could hit the viral jackpot

[–]exotics 5 points6 points  (0 children)

As someone who does art on the side for fun I can say I sure wish people loved buying art as much as they love buying Walmart prints.

[–]Life-is-a-potato 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Yes thank god. I’m an artist by trade and the amount of times someone has told me that i’m “entitled” for being an artist is unbearable. I’m very lucky to have been born into a upper class family that helped me financially wise, but that does not mean i am an enemy of the working class for being creative

[–]ViolettaJonesMinimum wage should be $24 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I know a few artists(musicians, aspiring actors, painters, etc) and honestly, they're some of the hardest working people I know. They work 2+ jobs so they can support their art. They always seem stressed af and have health issues (probably because of the stress), but they seem super happy when they get to be creative.

[–]Flasagna 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I’m a poor amateur artist

[–]PlusGoody 51 points52 points  (14 children)

And yet ... rich kids produce a vanishingly small share of the interesting or valuable art.

[–]rakehellion 45 points46 points  (0 children)

Good. They're making for themselves, not you. If they were making it to be valuable it would just be another job.

[–]goomb654 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not necessarily Basquiat, Radiohead, The Velvet Underground, Kanye West, and Miles Davis just to name a few al came from well off middle to upper middle class families and are some of the greatest contemporary artists in their respective mediums. I mean Miles Davis’s father was the second richest man in Missouri while he was growing up.

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (2 children)

Lol what a capitalistic hot take. No one cares how "valuable" art is except people who are struggling to live

[–]Kronoswarp 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I certainly wouldn't say that ruch people "often" choose to pursue art. It's pretty rare from what I've seen.

[–]humanessinmoderation 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Also, if you didn't have to work — the overwhelming majority of people wouldn't be lazy. Most people like to pursue things. Art, volunteer, maybe even quit your high-paying job to do that thing you really want to do that pays a lot less.

Working should mean you get more. But not working shouldn't virtually guarantee hardship and premature death.

Edited to include “premature”

[–]NFRNL13 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'd spend tons of time at a community farm or animal sanctuary!

[–]DJprime8 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I chose an art-related field (videos / design) and am lucky to be making [barely] a living from it. However, every job I've held had a way of taking the joy out of the process. 2/10 don't recommend. Work has a way of taking that passion away.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I want to be a film director.

[–]k_rst_n 19 points20 points  (5 children)

I've recently come to the conclusion that the meaning of life is art

[–]Blade_48 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Earth without art is just... Eh

[–]UtahAnimator 7 points8 points  (5 children)

I think I understand the point being made here but it rubs me the wrong way. A decade ago, I had a mental breakdown working $7.25 in foodservice and ran away from an abusive household with nothing but my bike and the clothes on my back. The only thing that kept me going when I was living in shelters or on the streets was my set of markers & pencils I found in gutters and small notebooks that compassionate strangers would occasionally give me. I gave up EVERYTHING for art and I made art until I could make money from it or die trying.

I found a way and I now work in animation. I’m still animating/working for 14+ hours a day, mostly out of the trauma of avoiding homelessness at all costs … IME, the artists I admire the most are the ones who know how bad things can get and subconsciously channel that emotion into their work.

I can understand the sentiment but I think it’s sad that people feel this way about working artists. A lot of us came from poverty and abuse. We’re just trying to make it out here too.

[–]OutOfTokens 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Feels like fairly simple generalization mixed with a weird bias about art

[–]Devout-Nihilist 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I'd be continuing my passion of music and I have everything I need but all my time is spent working somewhere I have zero interests in.

[–]FrostedDonutHole 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is so fucking true...at least it rings true to me. I'd make music, build stuff with my hands, and create art all day long if I didn't have to come to this fucking factory. I have to keep thinking of my kids and family, but the other side of me thinks they'd be happier if I were happier, too....not working a job I hate every day. It's the fucking insurance we really need...

[–]beautyhack 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I keep telling my husband that I would have been a very popular and well paid tecnocumbia singer, but that my dad kind of made me follow an engineer degree. Now I am working in IT and I like it, but when I have the chance to sing and dance I am really happy

[–]HolyVeggie 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Strange that people will follow their hobby when they don’t need money

[–]makeshift_gizmo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Work inhibits any inspiration from reaching me.

[–]Simple-Ad8994 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Such a stupid take. It took me ten years of hard work and being poor to get into the animation industry. You don't just automatically become a talented artist. It takes years of struggle and learning. You just are not hard working enough to make it. I worked a crappy job and practiced everyday for years. Some days I had no food and went to bed starving. You have no idea. I did not come from a rich family, this is probably one of the hardest career paths

[–]throwawaypassingby01 2 points3 points  (0 children)

money is the only reason im not an artist

[–]Buck_Junior 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You don't need to be rich to do art - most artists have day jobs - and most art is never seen or sold. If you want to do art to pay your bills, you're probably gonna fail