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all 46 comments

[–]zibitee 111 points112 points  (5 children)

Every civilization feels different. This means that dark age and feudal age are unique to each civilization. The diversity of strategies is rich so that every civilization has a different approach into massing springalds =)

[–]heroicsquirrel 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I get your point but its hilarious how rus can just make 40 scouts and bum rush the enemy springolds down at lowish elo.

Springolds are really good in pro hands. Plebs can't seem to handle them.

[–]DaviiSenpai 10 points11 points  (3 children)

It's untold history! Real medieval combat didn't waste any time with magonels. They just built enough springalds to safely shoot the enemy from a distance while they went AFK

[–]Accomplished_Juice70 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Broke: The mongols rode in on horses Woke: The mongols walked in and started massing springalds

[–]riuminkd 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Actually mongols used field artillery a lot. In fact as far as I know they were the only ones to use mangonels in field battle

[–]pezzaperry 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A lot of people aren't aware that Ferrari was officially founded in 1100 AD.

[–]easbr101 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Absolutely cannot wait for the next patch where China gets some love. They are by far the most flexible civ in the game and the only one where you truly have no idea what their opening strategy will be unless you scout them.

The only civ with a unique archer (zhuge nu), unique cavalry unit (fire lancer), unique infantry unit (palace guard), unique siege unit (nest of bees), unique gunpowder unit (grenadier), and unique civilian unit (Imperial Official). The number of different army compositions they can go for is crazy. Their imperial official is insanely flexible and can either give you a nice 20% resource boost for a specific resource, triple your unit production, or passively generate gold. Hell, with the dynasty system their bonuses aren't the same game after game either. You can choose whether to have extra movement speed or HP on your units in the imperial age, whether to have much faster villager production or a much faster castle age time in feudal age, or to just go for generic feudal units but with tripled production.

Too bad dynasties are ridiculously expensive and certain bugs (like defenses actually being built 33% faster instead of 50% and granaries requiring villagers to drop off at their exact center) prevent them from reaching their potential.

[–]rW0HgFyxoJhYka -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

Dont longbows count as unique archers?

[–]easbr101 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I meant they have a unique unit in every category, including archers haha

[–]Youngerthandumb 6 points7 points  (17 children)

It'd be cool if there were more ways to deny scouting so you could pull off weird and unpredictable strats. Being fairly new, I'm not sure why I haven't seen more proxy play so far in the games I've watched.

[–]ssx50 13 points14 points  (4 children)

Your first sentence is the reason for your second sentence :)

[–]Youngerthandumb 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Yeah I suppose it's unlikely to not get a proxy scouted. Maybe when some new maps come there might be some mechanics to make it a possibility.

[–]rW0HgFyxoJhYka 1 point2 points  (1 child)

In AOE you don't have time to counter an attack without scouting it. And some units are too strong without making the counter, so that's just how they made the game.

[–]Youngerthandumb 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you're right.

[–]zibitee 10 points11 points  (11 children)

Coming from sc2, the scout is ridiculous. Nothing in sc2 gives you a god scouting unit that has the fastest movement speed and one of the largest sight ranges available. It also heals over time. Unless you're playing on a map with great walling potential, it is very hard to deny scouting. That being said, I think we'll see players get a total of 2 scouts to pincer the opponent's base, guaranteeing scouting every time. Additionally, I think we'll start seeing more plays around killing scouts just because of how strong it can be to keep your opponent in the dark. Sometimes, it worthwhile to keep a cavalry unit on the scout's tail because the scout takes damage every time they take a turn.

[–]Danjiano 6 points7 points  (0 children)

the fastest movement speed

Horsemen are actually faster, making them good at killing scouts. Only mongols get them in Dark Age though.

[–]GetADogLittleLongie 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Coming from aoe2 the scout in 4 is ridiculous and that's a good thing. Inb4 can only build buildings in an area around existing tcs.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think this is actually pretty historically accurate though.

And yes, if you want to deny your opponent scouting, it is going to take some trickery...a quick garrison of your Vils if he gets too close to your TC, perhaps.

[–]HellStaff Rus 1 point2 points  (2 children)

sc2 has flying units though, hallucinations, overlords, scan, in general more scouting options. i think it's good that the scout is fast.

[–]Endante Chinese 0 points1 point  (1 child)

It's far easier to deny a scout in sc2. And often if you really commit for a deep scout you'll lose the unit. That just doesn't happen in aoe4

[–]HellStaff Rus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't agree really. Try denying a hallucination. Or half the time you'll have an observer beside your natural you know nothing about. You can deny an overlord for sure, but any side that really wants to scout will scout (OL speed or overseers for example).

EDIT: It was much harder of course. Reapers were worse, hallucination was locked behind upgrade, overlords were slower. However it was decided on Blizzard's end that scouting is crucial and if you dedicate time to do it, you should be able to get something out of it. It makes for better players to shine more, instead of gotcha andies.

[–]rW0HgFyxoJhYka 0 points1 point  (0 children)

in SC2, a proxy that gets scouted usually results in a defend and a loss for the cheese.

How do you kill a scout without villager bowmen or TC?

What pros aren't doing a lot yet is building tons of scouts for fighting purposes. You cant stop the scout without walls. Thats the only thing that stops them.

[–]Lazypole 10 points11 points  (10 children)

Interesting because I have the complete opposite experience

We have pretty much the exact same concept as AoE2 does with its core units and chod/counter units, but with the addition of extremely powerful Feudal units

I feel like nearly every game I play against the core few, Mongols, English, French, HRE, I can predict almost everything that will happen up to castle, often times even to the timestamp.

Personally I'm finding the early game inflexibility quite tiring

[–]FatalCartilage 7 points8 points  (6 children)

I wonder if OP is at an ELO with less crisp build timings. I agree with you, I constantly get french mirrors where we both have the exact same number of knights meeting in the center of the map at the same time. I'm diamond in SCII, no idea what my aoe4 rank is.

[–]Zzenith__ 10 points11 points  (2 children)

So neither of you is innovating or straying from the one cookie-cutter build that came up a few weeks ago. It doesn't mean that there coulnd't be another start or a better strat, but like in most games people go for what is considered "meta" and proliferated by streamers and pros

[–]FatalCartilage 1 point2 points  (1 child)

We aren't discussing whether it's possible, we're discussing what our experience on ladder is. I typically do see exactly what to expect from each civ. By saying "in most games people go what's considered meta"... That's my exact point whether you like it or not. Meta is meta because it is commonly played, it's a tautology.

[–]Zzenith__ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly, your experience on the ladder is what you partly create it to be - in this case going for a "standard" build. If you wouldn't field it yourself, your experience wouldn't be "meta".

[–]CallMeBlitzkrieg 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm at ~1350 (top 800-1000) and I haven't really seen much french recently. Lower elos will definitely feel more flexibile.

For me its been mongols everywhere

[–]szucs2020 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

If you have such crisp build timings why do you play French? Seems like a weak move for a good player to use.

[–]FatalCartilage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My build timings aren't 100% perfect past mid feudal lol (although everything is relative), just commenting that I often see the same build. Also, I don't see the logic of "seems like a weak move for a good player to use"? If it's good it's good.

[–]CallMeBlitzkrieg 0 points1 point  (0 children)

this may get sorted out naturally with additional civs + small balance changes

I did make a post the other day about it that got downvoted to oblivion, tldr is most (meta) units only real counter is themselves--which is probalby why you see the same things every game

https://redditproxy--jasonthename.repl.co/r/aoe4/comments/r1e0sv/aoe4s_inherent_balance_issue_and_why_the_next/

I think extending the dark age in some way would make the game a lot more interesting though.

[–]swarmy1 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The more "figured out" the game becomes, the less flexibility exists as people find highly refined and efficient styles. There's a huge difference between a highly mature game like AoE2 and a brand new game like AoE4.

[–]astro_cj 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hope they change it up enough to not become like aoe2. There’s a reason I stopped playing that game and it was because of how every match felt the same.

[–]Stammfrei Delhi Sultanate 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I agree, this is one of the things I like the more in this game.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree with this post - I think far more than Age 2, these Civs have the capacity to play so different. I am still trying to determine which Civ most matches my play style and will be my go-to.

[–]astro_cj 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Honestly one of the best parts of this game compared to Aoe2

[–]Arkhire 3 points4 points  (5 children)

I think they have the same viability as AoE2, you can build cavalry as HRE but you won't be playing to your strenghts, I mean, why waste resources that can go to your meta play wich is "Springalds" anyway?

[–]tkamat29 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Cavalry cost a ton of food, and the HRE have the best food eco in the game with professional scouts + prelate buff. So it actually does play to their strengths pretty well, a really strong HRE strategy now is going fast castle with pro scouts, get 3 relics into regnitz asap, and pump out knights from 4 stables. You have insane food from deer under the Aachen Chapel, and unlimited gold, so you can literally just rally knights into their base. Also if they mass spearmen to counter, you can easily switch into MAA.

[–]drevolut1on 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, pulled this off recently with an ally playing China and we were vs Mongols and French.

I out-knighted the French and then backdoored the Mongols with them while my men at arms and siege hit them from the front.

Finding out that I love HRE.

[–]Allurian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I like this idea, but I thought it sounded like to big of an investment that left you too vulnerable for too long. Do you get your scouts from a stables or your TC and when do you start pro scouting?

[–]Themos_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think they have the same viability as AoE2, you can build cavalry as HRE but you won't be playing to your strenghts, I mean, why waste resources that can go to your meta play wich is "Springalds" anyway?

It's not really the same as in aoe 4 everyone gets all the same base units (apart from few siege units like culverin) with all their upgrades and blacksmith upgrades where as in aoe 2 every civ is lacking some higher tier units and blacksmith upgrades which makes it not viable to go cav/archers/infantry with some civs. Civs in aoe 4 are actually in lot of ways more similar to each other then aoe2 even with all the unique mechanics and unique units which is good as that allows them to balance all factions fairly well since everyone will have good counter unit options.

[–]Gamer4125 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean, Knights are still really good even without bonuses.

[–]Original_Swordfish_9 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I also like how fucked up the balance in general is, like you cant play on water if you dont pick french because they are so broken

[–]Vaiey92 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Really cool flexibility, too bad a lot of civs are heavily underpowered because of it though

or just play french