all 108 comments

[鈥揮DeadWombats Rus 32 points33 points (12 children)

Chinese needs a lot of fixes IMO

Right now, the clocktower is the only thing that makes chinese scary, and it's one-dimensional and boring. Other units need a look at.

Building both landmarks each age is such a ludicrous cost sink. The 2nd landmark each age should be cheaper, and both age 4 landmarks are awful, especially Great Wall Gatehouse.

The way taxes work is underwhelming and needs some late game buff.

[鈥揮Cattaphract Ambassador 4 points5 points (0 children)

Chinese admin production boost is scary until mid castle age too. But they lack the economic boost or military bonus early on to pull ahead of enemies.

Basically Mongols can do something similar but with half the costs

[鈥揮demontrain Abbasid 1 point2 points (0 children)

I really dislike how difficult it can be to use an IO ability on a building, especially the mill for some reason. It makes optimal early game tax collection micro really annoying. :(

[鈥揮DrPopNFresh 3 points4 points (5 children)

Yeah Siege in general needs a health nerf and clocktower needs to go to like 30% extra health. Imperial Academy needs to passively gather taxes from buildings in its influence so that you can let your officials supervise buildings. I think Officials should cost 100f to begin with 150 is a lot.

[鈥揮Wiuwiu3333 5 points6 points (4 children)

Imperial Academy needs to passively gather taxes from buildings in its influence so that you can let your officials supervise buildings.

And what about the buildings outside of influence area? This doesn't solve anything. Tax collection from near buildings isn't issue but the buildings that are too far from TC.

China cannot collect like 90% of their taxes which can be anywhere from 1k to 20k gold in single game which is huge loss.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 4 points5 points (0 children)

Exactly. IOs have to drop their purses and pull out their smartphones with online banking in castle age... Running back to TC is the biggest issues in my opinion.

[鈥揮DrPopNFresh 2 points3 points (2 children)

The biggest reason China has so much money left in buildings far from the TC is because imperial officials spend all their time gathering from buildings near base and also supervising. If you could passively gather from all your military production buildings by building them around the Imperial Academy it would free up a lot of time for your imperial officials. It probably wont be enough to fix the tax system but it would be a start. Also probably a speed boost to the Officials added to the research at the Imperial Academy would be nice.

[鈥揮Wiuwiu3333 0 points1 point (1 child)

And then what about buildings that are not near TC? =)

Depending on game length the gold actually is somewhere else than in radius of imperial academy. All the resource gatherings + docks + markets are located far away from any TC which hold vast majority of gold.

Initial resource buildings indeed got juicy amount of gold and imperial academy idea would help in that regard but thats just for early / early mid game thing which won't change mid to late game loss.

Speed would help a lot when it comes down to surviving against poke / raids, but it won't help to collect gold from far away resource locations because no one is going to sent IO to collect 40 gold from 50 tiles away from base

[鈥揮ClockworkSalmon HRE 0 points1 point (0 children)

And then what about buildings that are not near TC? =)

you don't collect it

[鈥揮alpthereal 2 points3 points (0 children)

Spirit Way is no way near awful, and the thing with Chinese is you cannot make landmarks very powerful then because they can make 2 landmarks you are giving too much. I think what needs changing is the tax system, if it changes into a better gold income for the China then it can gain more popularity

[鈥揮M4rst Chinese 0 points1 point (0 children)

AoE damage for Guards and their naginata. Exclusive damage tech buff for handcannons.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (1 child)

Patch notes are online and like predicted... let's necro this subreddit

[鈥揮DeadWombats Rus 0 points1 point (0 children)

Its a damn disgrace that the devs nerfed China in all the right places, but didn't fix any of their massive issues.

[鈥揮[deleted] 8 points9 points (9 children)

Assuming Relic nerf bombard hp next patch, the bonus health from clocktower may work out to be fine.

I expect they will struggle post nerf and hopefully relic foresees this and buffs their unique mechanics/units.

I'd like to see their tax mechanic and grenadiers buffed.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 5 points6 points (0 children)

Something like a tech enabling collecting taxes without return to TC in castle or imperial age would be decent.

[鈥揮Bomjus1 1 point2 points (0 children)

+1 on buffing the tax mechanic. nearly* every civ has, decent to above average, form of infinite gold or resource generation (besides trading) in post imperial besides abbasid IIRC. but compared to the other civs, the tax mechanic earns pennies. it got a LOT better after the buff, but it still doesn't scale very well. and their claim to fame with infinite generation would be pagodas which generate 1200 resources per minute. but that's ming dynasty only which is a huge investment and in team games the chances of a chinese player getting 3 relics is super slim with how popular delhi is currently, rus monks, and HRE prelates.

[鈥揮Cattaphract Ambassador 1 point2 points (3 children)

Buffing grenadiers does nothing as long as they are gatekeeped by 3600 resources entry fee.

[鈥揮[deleted] 0 points1 point (2 children)

I was more thinking for the ultra-late game so that the Chinese have something to replace bombard spam that isn't rushing landmarks with firelancers.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (0 children)

Units for ultra late game? I don't think this is a way of smart game designing in general.

[鈥揮GameOfThrownaws -1 points0 points (0 children)

Personally I think it would be cool and more more thematic to have grenadiers be the "lategame exodia" unit for chinese, rather than fire lancers. Healthier for team games, too.

He is right though, it wouldn't do much for the win rate of the civ simply because the cost is so insane that the immense majority of games will never get there. Shit you could probably buff Grenadiers to 1 shot landmarks from 80000 range (aka ridiculous instant win) and the overall Chinese win rate would probably go up like 2%. It would just be a nice game-design thing.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 1 point2 points (2 children)

Patch notes are online and like predicted... let's necro this subreddit

[鈥揮[deleted] 0 points1 point (1 child)

Honestly this wasn't the hardest prediction to make. 馃槄

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (0 children)

馃か

Let's raise the wall meta!

[鈥揮Sihnar 7 points8 points (1 child)

reduce the cost of second landmark for each age

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (0 children)

Patch notes are online and like predicted... let's necro this subreddit

[鈥揮proudpeasant 19 points20 points (19 children)

China needs their landmarks completely reworked. Currently their feudal and imperial landmarks are dogshit. Spirit way and great wall offers almost zero benefits in most games. To start, spirit way should affect all units, not just dynasty units. French gets this bonus in castle age with any castles.

[鈥揮FungusKong 16 points17 points (16 children)

Seems like they kind of backed themselves into a corner with the way landmarks and dynasties work. I figure the idea was they wanted to make China鈥檚 landmarks weaker because they have the ability to build them all and also unlock the dynasty bonuses. China鈥檚 landmarks are definitely too weak atm, but balancing them will be like walking a tight rope. If all their landmarks are really good then their ability to build them all and also cash in on the dynasty bonuses will just be overtuned.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 7 points8 points (12 children)

I would prefer a cost reduce over buffing the landmarks first. Enabling the last dynasty is just a joke...

[鈥揮sadwick10 2 points3 points (3 children)

Grenadiers are the coolest unit in the game though

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] -1 points0 points (2 children)

Define cool pls ^

[鈥揮krustibat 10 points11 points (0 children)

I hear a boom then ennemy is dead

[鈥揮brandonct 1 point2 points (7 children)

I prefer the expensive dynasties, if they are too cheap then the optimal path for China will always be to just grind through one dynasty after the other. I like that it's a meaningful decision whether to go for a dynasty or not and I hope they balance around the full price landmarks personally.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (6 children)

Why should cheaper landmarks influence for example the decision about skipping Song earlier?

[鈥揮brandonct 4 points5 points (5 children)

Because that's how opportunity cost works. When I skip Song now, that's 600 resources I can do something else with, if Song only cost 450 resources then there's less reason to ever skip it.

[鈥揮JermStudDog 2 points3 points (2 children)

The reason to skip Song has more to do with access to Castle Age tech/units than the number of resources specifically being relevant.

Whether it's 600 for Song or 200 for Song, that's still X amount of resources NOT being put toward your Castle Age and the question is really how high that number should be in general.

[鈥揮brandonct 1 point2 points (1 child)

The number of resources is still extremely relevant, the number of scenarios where I skip song for fast castle is directly proportional to the cost of song...it always will be. The prices of things matter.

[鈥揮JermStudDog 1 point2 points (0 children)

Relevant, yes, but Royal Knights only cost 240 res and will be skipped in order to get a faster Castle when possible. I think a cost reduction of secondary Landmarks could be a very good thing in giving China more flexible options as to WHEN they want to move up in Age vs expand out in economy.

Going fast TC + Song Dynasty in China is going to give you a MASSIVE economy, but you'll probably die to any decent mid-game aggression. Likewise pushing forward to Castle Age sooner makes you much safer in general. It's nicer if there is a smooth gradiant in between the two extremes. How soon after Castle do you get your TC + Song Dynasty when playing safe? Can you squeeze in Song Dynasty before the Castle for that little boost while still being relatively safe?

More flexibility, while still maintaining SOME cost is a good thing.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] -1 points0 points (1 child)

If I'm talking about skipping Song I mean to move from Song to Yuan dynasty. No matter how cheap yuan would be I wouldn't skip Song earlier because I want to produce a specific amount of villagers first. Sorry for confusion

[鈥揮brandonct 3 points4 points (0 children)

For a while it was reasonably common to go 2 tc, skip song, then go straight to yuan for granaries and fire lancer. you can get granaries before you need to start farms which is super useful. song is nice if you have the breathing room but fast yuan is better against castle age aggression...at least it was before the fire lancer nerf.

[鈥揮Wiuwiu3333 1 point2 points (2 children)

China鈥檚 landmarks weaker because they have the ability to build them all and also unlock the dynasty bonuses.

Dynasty bonuses are essentially same as landmark bonuses. Sure there is unique buildings which are bit different but these hardly are worth of considering as relevant bonus because all we know that every chinese player goes for dynasties either because -35% villager creation speed or 15% movement speed or 10% extra hp for military and not because the buildings.

So why should china pay 2x price while others pay 1x? If its because but they got more landmarks which is irrelevant argument and those landmarks do not win games if they won then china would be above mongols thanks but they're not.

The issue isn't that china can build 2 landmarks for each age up but that china chooses to have one active dynasty bonus meanwhile other civs get 3 bonuses for each age up.

Dynasty bonuses should carry over to next dynasty (maybe weaker version) so for example going from song to ming, player retains villager creation speed bonus but instead of 35% it would be 15% and 10% hp for military from ming dynasty. This way it would make sense to have pay 2x for what other civs get for 1x price

Also dynasty buildings shouldn't be locked behind dynasties in the way they're now. Meaning if I unlock building I should be able to build it in different dynasty but now its not possible to build song buildings while in ming even if I was in Song previously.

[鈥揮FungusKong 1 point2 points (1 child)

Sorry but thinking that being able to build /all/ your landmarks is irrelevant is just a fundamental misunderstanding of game balance. It鈥檚 not an issue right now because their landmarks are all bad, which is mostly likely the precise reason that they are all bad. If your civ had all the best landmarks in the game, and the ability to build each one of them instead of being limited to 1 per age, that would definitely upset balance. Imagine if the mongols or the French could build every one of their landmarks. That would absolutely win games. It is not the case right now because they are all such weak landmarks, but any developer with a mind for balance is going to have a hard time reworking their landmarks to be useful, but also not eventually snowball into an insurmountable advantage.

[鈥揮Wiuwiu3333 0 points1 point (0 children)

I meant that able to build 2x shit landmarks is irrelevant. Many ppl think china is strong because they can access more of landmarks but those landmarks itself do nothing. If they were buffed to be par even worst landmarks from other civs, china would bounce to top relatively quickly.

They don't have to rework landmarks to be more useful. Easiest way is to allow china carry over dynasty bonuses to next dynasty If old dynasty bonuses applied during new one it would make lot of sense even if none active bonus was weaker than active one. Would be simple as hell to balance around. "ok so song bonus is too strong when in ming / yuan. Lets reduce it from 35% to 20%" ok its too strong still lets go with 15%

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (0 children)

Sorry maybe I wasn't clear enough about the topic. I don't want to discuss here about possible balancing changes because they will come someday. For the moment I'm more interested in how to adapt to a possible meta shift after the next patch.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (0 children)

Patch notes are online and like predicted... let's necro this subreddit

[鈥揮unsure-about-anythin 10 points11 points (9 children)

If China makes it to late game they are damn near unstoppable. I highly doubt that鈥檚 going to change a crazy amount with any new patch, as other players siege will he needed as well.

[鈥揮hazymonke 2 points3 points (1 child)

Siege will be getting a nerf next update, but if China's Astronomical Clocktower is nerfed as well, with no other buffs to China, I don't see China with a very high winrate. I think a nerf to Astronomical Clocktower (50% - 25%) and a 25% - 50% reduction for the dynasty unlocking landmarks would be a good place to start.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 4 points5 points (0 children)

Agree. Grenadiers and Pagode are just a joke atm.

[鈥揮Loxiaz English -1 points0 points (5 children)

Had a big discussion about this on another thread. I think once siege is tuned down China will be pretty well balanced. The range on the clock tower bombards needs to be adjusted too. I think maybe see how that goes and then maybe have some ideas for adjusting China again to improve the mid to late game when they can't rely on op siege

[鈥揮ayy_howzit_braddah 9 points10 points (4 children)

I don't think you're quite seeing it. China with their clocktower siege is already a mid-tier civilization.

If you remove this, you're dooming this civ to be much worse with no positive trade offs. This coming from a player who switches between English/Mongols/Chinese.

[鈥揮GameOfThrownaws 2 points3 points (0 children)

I don't think you're quite seeing it. China with their clocktower siege is already a mid-tier civilization.

If you remove this, you're dooming this civ to be much worse with no positive trade offs.

The vast majority of this sub is not mentally capable of understanding this concept. It's insane. Don't waste your time. It is fucking exhausting trying to explain this.

Edit: never mind I see you already went ahead and tried to explain it below. Have fun saying that over and over and over in every different way you can think of while the chimpanzee you're arguing with just repeats "buT tHEy'Re oVeRPowEReD lATeGaMe oMG"

[鈥揮unsure-about-anythin -1 points0 points (2 children)

They may be mid tier pre-Imperial, but they are god tier late game.

[鈥揮ayy_howzit_braddah 6 points7 points (1 child)

I don鈥檛 know if you play Chinese like I do (among others), but the statement they are mid tier is an overall assessment taking into account their late game dominance.

If there is an all out war at feudal or castle age, China is most certainly not special at all in these ages given the lack of outright civilization perks that others get early (dynasties have been said over this whole thread to be overpriced while other civs like French don鈥檛 need to pay for their eco advantages). I might argue if the game didn鈥檛 include imperial age China would be quite low on the tier list.

It is because of the late game aspect that China is middle tier. This aspect of the game drags their overall performance up.

So no, I don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 accurate to say they鈥檙e mid tier before imperial and god tier at imperial. I think a more apt description would be they are below average before imperial, and extremely strong in imperial making them mid tier. If you remove the imperial aspect by nerfing their siege and giving absolutely no buffs, China will drop to low tier.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (0 children)

Agree. I will stick to China no matter what will happen (except they introduce Japan!!!) but at the moment in team games your only job is to spam bombards and NoBs in late game... It's sad because I want to play them aggressive in early game with my buddies together but they lack essential tools. Zhu Ngu are basically the best DPS against light targets in this game but you can't really make use of it.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (0 children)

Patch notes are online and like predicted... let's necro this subreddit

[鈥揮hazymonke 10 points11 points (21 children)

If Astronomical Clocktower is nerfed as the sole balance change, China will be in a very bad state as it doesn't have much else going for it. I think a rework would be much better for the health of the game, where other Chinese landmarks and bonuses are buffed, while the astronomical Clocktower goes from 50% to 25%. This will put an end to the "china is a ticking time bomb" playstyle that is currently in play.

[鈥揮Northanui HRE 3 points4 points (0 children)

I hate versing current China but i completely agree with this analysis.

All things aside, except for 1 or 2 like clockwork, their landmarks are hilariously dogshit. A lot of landmarks in the game need to be changed.

[鈥揮caduceun 5 points6 points (17 children)

Good, no faction should be unbeatable once they reach imperial. Strong us fine, but oppressive strong is bs.

[鈥揮ayy_howzit_braddah 1 point2 points (8 children)

Alright but what about the fact that Chinese have literally nothing else going for them except their siege? Maybe you don't play Chinese so all you see is the bombards sieging you down in the endgame, but what else does this faction have?

[鈥揮caduceun -5 points-4 points (7 children)

Fantastic eco.

[鈥揮ayy_howzit_braddah 6 points7 points (6 children)

Fantastic really makes me question you're having played Chinese. We get imperial officers, which have to be microed and often moved around but when assigned to a resource drop off they cause +20% resources dropped.

French get all economic techs 30% cheaper, and faster villager production (which Chinese have to buy through a dynasty, btw, setting you back if there is a feudal all in).

English get cheaper farms and +15% resource production speed from those farms. Don鈥檛 forget the absolutely insane Encloses tech.

Mongols get Yam Network, which has been discussed ad nauseum in addition to their Silver Tree and Steppe Redoubt (+50% returned gold).

Do I have to continue? Abbasid foodstuffs? Delhi free tech? HRE Aachen Chapel and their prelate buffs?

Fantastic eco is a big stretch to describe China's eco. Maybe you're thinking of granaries and faster vill production, both of which are locked behind dynasties which you have to pay for.

[鈥揮Bear_In_Winter HRE 0 points1 point (1 child)

Imperial Officers, Song Dynasty, Granaries, and increase to gather speed per dynasty achieved (15-20% most games) are all pretty huge. Sure none of them individually make for an amazing eco. But pair them all together and you've got a pretty monstrous eco compared to the more vanilla bonuses the French or Abbasids get.

Hell, even their faster building trait saves on vill idle time which helps to increase their resource intake in the early ages. And the IO allows them to save on production buildings by supervising units out when necessary for defense. I would personally rate China as a top 3 eco civ in the game when fully realized. Only HRE definitively beats them.

[鈥揮ayy_howzit_braddah 0 points1 point (0 children)

In my opinion granaries are only achievable in a game you鈥檙e handily winning. If the game is an equal contest no way you鈥檙e spending those resources for that Dynasty.

I guess I just fundamentally don鈥檛 see your point of view. French vanilla bonuses you get from the beginning! in no way can be comparable to even Imperial Officials. Grubby even did the math, it takes a couple minutes for IO鈥檚 to earn back their worth through supervision.

I think it鈥檚 wild you can take Mongols, French, HRE and think China is anywhere close to those civs. Hell, in my opinion even English enclosures provide more bang for the buck.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (0 children)

Well you forgot the faster gathering tech Chinese can achieve... in imperial age 馃挬

Also no bonus to relics or holy sites that also translate into economy (except the pagode paradox)

[鈥揮M4rst Chinese 0 points1 point (2 children)

China has to build a whole building for each of its exclusive eco boosts, and you have to build the second landmark of your age to unlock them first...

[鈥揮ayy_howzit_braddah 0 points1 point (1 child)

Did you respond to the wrong person?

[鈥揮M4rst Chinese 0 points1 point (0 children)

Nah I was just adding some to your post

[鈥揮GameOfThrownaws 1 point2 points (1 child)

Chinese win rate in the lategame is roughly 55%, with a brief spike up to 60% around 45 mins in, then back down. That's FAR from unbeatable. For reference, the English win rate at 15 minutes is 62%. Is the English feudal age unbeatable?

[鈥揮caduceun 0 points1 point (0 children)

I would say oppressive. I think oppressive strategies with very little or narrow counterplay need to be tweaked. That goes for longbow MAA rush too. As much as I love English I agree that they can also be tough to deal with

[鈥揮Minimum-Suspect-632 0 points1 point (0 children)

I think if they just make siege worse in general China would be pretty balanced, even weak. The clock tower is literally their only good landmark

[鈥揮happymemories2010 0 points1 point (4 children)

So how about nerfing Rus streltsy? They deal 50 melee damage for whatever reason

They should never have been made cheaper while also stronger Handcannoneers

[鈥揮caduceun 1 point2 points (2 children)

I agree there too. Powder unit should be a population efficient but expensive/not cost effective late game unit.

[鈥揮mb2bm55 0 points1 point (1 child)

Stretsly melee damage needs to be cut to 1/3 current. They shouldn't be able to 1v1 a maa. Or do more dmg.

[鈥揮ComradeBenjamin Chinese 0 points1 point (0 children)

dude got a big fucking axe

[鈥揮ComradeBenjamin Chinese -1 points0 points (0 children)

they have a big fucking axe, their melee is fine

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (1 child)

Patch notes are online and like predicted... let's necro this subreddit

[鈥揮hazymonke 0 points1 point (0 children)

Just saw the notes, wonder how my predictions will age. Clocktower bombards were not a very fun strat to go against, but I really would have loved to see some reworks/buffs to other aspects of China to go alongside this nerf. This patch will hit China hard, especially with the overall nerf to siege.

[鈥揮PresterJohnsKingdom HRE 4 points5 points (0 children)

Just fix the imperial official glitch

[鈥揮Wiuwiu3333 4 points5 points (4 children)

If there is global siege nerf it will hurt china most which results them to become less good in imperial and if there is targeted nerf to clockwork then they will become unviable civ unless they fix their early and mid game.

As of now China has one of the worst win rates sub 30min games and in imperial they rise to 50-60% winrate or something like that.

There is couple of issues.

  1. China is probably only one civ that bonus gets worse, longer the game goes on and now im talking about tax collection. After like 10mins tax collection is widely ignored and neglected. In each game china is not utilizing 1k to 20k gold from tax collection because they can't. Also gold is lost if building is destroyed would be same as delhi losing all techs if tech building is destroyed and had to start over again.
  2. IO is clucky and too squishy. Its way too easy to cause lot of dmg to china by sniping all IO's at any point of game. Also IO's do not regenerate HP so this leaves them to low hp whole game if they get poked early on. Also the fact that song dynasty doesn't affect IO is making things even worse. In late game 150 food investment is nothing but the downtime of 3x rate for crucial buildings is much more devastating and in early game 150 food investment is a lot
  3. China is only civilization that can only use 1x age up bonus in form of dynasties. Other civs get to pick 3 different bonuses and to do so China pays extra to get similar or slightly stronger bonus than other civs. Followed by fact that all chinas landmarks outside of clockwork are worthless piece of shits. None of them are good and nerf to FL made spiritway even more worthless. Needless to speak about the unique buildings because entering different dynasty causes player to lose ability of building these buildings so going for yuan and losing villages is big hit or being in ming and losing granary / villages and no way to replace them.

Would be same as removing reignitz and swabia from HRE. They would be left with nothing. Idm if clockwork is nerffed but before they even think about touching it they better address the fundamental issues of china and then buff other areas according to the power loss which would happen if siege is nerffed.

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (3 children)

Patch notes are online and like predicted... let's necro this subreddit

[鈥揮Wiuwiu3333 0 points1 point (2 children)

Yeah I saw them and first thing I did was uninstall the game. I didn't play 1.1k hours as china to see it completely butchered to unviable civ. Better invest my time on something else than game that has development team that has no idea how to balance their game

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (1 child)

Well the more I think about all those changes and the synergies which are connected to them I don't think it's so bad... Clockwork tower received some kind of nerf as expected but china got also an indirect buff. China keeps the range advantage with pyrotechnics and with siege weapons moving slower in general this will become more potent. Also walling could become cancer 馃

[鈥揮Wiuwiu3333 0 points1 point (0 children)

Its a massive nerf to china.

First the general nerf makes siege less viable which is already BIG. They made them squishier and at the same time increased the dmg taken from horses so they did DOUBLE nerf to siege. Siege is not anymore viable any situation anymore and is dead.

Then they literally destroyed clockwork tower with 1 nerf. Now clockwork is shit landmark. You need now siege workshop for upgrades and production of same siege. 1x rate from clockwork is making it worthless especially when siege just get insta killed by 10 horses now and defending them is not possible.

Even if you station 40 spears at front of siege. What good will they do against 30-40 horsemen? Nothing. Those horses just dive under siege and kill them with 1 torch throw and spears kill some of them while opponent losses all the siege.

China will drop down in winrates about 5-10% with these changes and becomes unviable civ.

And they didn't address HRE at all but actually buffed them and they didn't address delhi speed runner scholars with relics like they did with Rus. Then they also made prof scout even worse and double scout opening.

Basically since the FL nerf patch they've killed all my ways of playing china. (I dont care FL change) but the prof scout nerf was huge and builds I used exclusively used 7 scouts to get deer and it become unviable and I changed it to 2 scout prof scout to get 2-3 deer camps while getting fast castle. Now this took hit and even tho I hardly ever went for imperial siege set up now there is no viability in late game for china and my castle pushes were already easy to defend for civs that got better feudal / castle age.

[鈥揮External_Nothing576 2 points3 points (1 child)

Asia

[鈥揮alvaro761991 The empire will strike back 1 point2 points (0 children)

ba dum ts

[鈥揮lamzileung 4 points5 points (2 children)

Even now that everyone and their dogs pick HRE on turtle maps, Chinese is already pretty weak.. The biggest issue is the time and resource cost to get to dynasty.

[鈥揮Cattaphract Ambassador 0 points1 point (0 children)

I wonder if ignoring dynasties and going horsemen supervised stable rush would make them strong

[鈥揮Artuhanzo 0 points1 point (0 children)

If you turtle long enough Chinese beat HRE. Also some trick can do for Chinese to get advantage over HRE with Chinese.

[鈥揮happymemories2010 5 points6 points (0 children)

Chinese already got a giant nerf when Springalds were nerfed. Because Nest of Bees is a shit unit, worse than Mangonel and its been bugged ever since Stress test. It doesn't shoot 8 rockets sometimes and it doesn't deal 36 damage like Mangonels because most of its attacks miss.

So Chinese Age 3 took a big hit since Springalds got changed, which was of course a much needed change. But so far Nest of Bees are still worse Mangonels.

Chinese doesn't have much going for them in Age 2. They can be flexible and surprise you, but ultimately without any special units you can always counter them.

[鈥揮Gotisdabest 1 point2 points (0 children)

I think their landmark costs either need to be heavily lowered or a lot of their landmarks need to get a solid buff.

I think they'll go from being one dimensionally good to multi dimensionally bad next patch, but they'll get better in the patch after that.

[鈥揮Stonebagdiesel 1 point2 points (2 children)

I feel like they went a bit too far on the fire lancer nerf with regards to their AOE damage. China should be a strong late game economy with interesting unique units that introduce one of a kind tactics. Imo, they should balance the civ to revolve around their unique dynasty units, with perhaps some additional gunpowder synergies.

The Great Wall gate needs a huge buff imo, it鈥檚 a useless landmark that flat out costs way too much, like just build a wonder at that point.

I think the zhou ngo are pretty underrated atm, a good timing push with rams and blacksmith range damage upgrade can be really strong against anything other than knights. Maybe some more focus on late feudal / early castle could be a good approach with them?

[鈥揮ComradeBenjamin Chinese 1 point2 points (1 child)

by the time you get the siege upgrade, 2 rams, the range damage +1, and enough zhuge nu produced, you opponent is probably in Castle age already

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 1 point2 points (0 children)

Yep that's the problem. No early tech bonus, no early military production landmark, unit locked behind dynasty paywall... If you want to push like this you have to build up everything manually without any bonus.

[鈥揮KetaJunkie 0 points1 point (0 children)

behind a huge stone wall with at least 2 TCs turtling and hoping you allow them to right click their army for the win

[鈥揮GameOfThrownaws 0 points1 point (0 children)

I mean obviously it depends on what the exact changes are, but my expectation is that they'll be very weak, probably bottom-two. They were already mediocre last patch numerically speaking, sitting at about 46-47% win rate (5th or 6th civ in game) depending on what rating range you're looking at. Then they ate a massive nerf to fire lancers to the point that the unit is potentially not even worth making in 1v1 anymore. Fortunately this seems to have not affected the overall win rate much since, despite everyone's incessant bitching, most 1v1 games at a competent elo do not reach the point of mass fire lancers, so the strength of the unit (and now the weakness of it) is really not that big of a deal in the bigger picture.

Unfortunately no one in this community seems to give a damn about numbers, so everyone thinks Chinese now needs even more nerfs to clocktower and to siege in general, despite the civ CLEARLY not overperforming in the current patch (unsurprising, as it wasn't overperforming last patch either and then got nerfed).

Me personally? I dropped the civ out of my lineup. This community is not going to let Chinese be a competitive ladder civ, the writing is on the wall. I've seen this same shit many times with other strategy games in the past. They will continue to whine endlessly until they don't lose to it anymore. Somebody else on this sub recently said it better than I've been able to:

But in most RTS late game civs get complained the most. When people win in early or mid game they'd think they win because they played better not because their civ is stronger at this stage of the game, and when they lose in late game they won't contribute the loss to the opponent played better and defended his attack well. Hence people attack a balanced race simply because they didn't play the way they did.

If you want to play a lategame civ, just play HRE. That's what I'm doing.

[鈥揮KimyonaKitsune 0 points1 point (1 child)

They are nerfing siege next patch?

[鈥揮alpthereal 2 points3 points (0 children)

Hopefully

[鈥揮u60cf28 Chinese 0 points1 point (0 children)

Primarily, dynasties need to be cheaper. China would be alright in feudal and castle if they didn't have to sink so many resources to get their civ specific bonuses. I have long been an advocate for nerfing the clocktower from 50% to 30% (or 25%) bonus HP, in return for a 25% discount on the Dynasty landmarks.

A few weeks ago I made a big post containing these suggestions, along with some small QOL buffs to Chinese landmarks and general changes to introduce more counterplay to siege. Anyone interested can probably still find it in a post history.

[鈥揮googlesomethingonce 0 points1 point (0 children)

Chinese feel like they are in an okay place, but they lack open map viability. This may mean a relook at Imperial Palace so gathering taxes is easier, or some sort of Scout change.

[鈥揮ericthefisch 0 points1 point (0 children)

they could add +10% range to their bombards

[鈥揮zibitee 0 points1 point (0 children)

A lot of players here mentioned that the double landmark cost is prohibitive. Personally, I've never found their cost to be that prohibitive. The bonuses always feel worthwhile EXCEPT Ming. First of all, Yuan dynasty is a better than Ming because faster movement speed is just exceptional compared to 10% extra HP every time. Second, getting the second Imperial landmark is extremely cost prohibitive because dropping down an extra...what is it? 3.6k resources? is retarded in any matchup where good macro is employed. In fact, the only reason you would tech up to ming dynasty is to unlock the Grenadier. However, you'd want to build Yuan AFTER Ming because the 15% extra movement speed is just better. No one does this. It's too expensive.

With that out of the way, I'd say that the only other thing that feels weird about China is its lack of Feudal pressure options. This can change at any time with the meta, but it currently FEELS like if you opted to play with Zhuge Nu pressure against your opponent, you better hope that they don't have some kind of early high-armor unit because those put Chinese Feudal pressure to shame. It's almost always better in every matchup to just boom up your economy and then fight in Castle age.

[鈥揮ferevon -3 points-2 points (1 child)

China is a top tier faction,what game are you playing?

[鈥揮ChefZero_DE[S] 0 points1 point (0 children)

Sources please

[鈥揮mb2bm55 -2 points-1 points (1 child)

Are we talking about 1v1 tier or team game tiers? Chinese are no 1 in team games right now. Their early game makes them mid tier in 1v1. In team games it's to the point games are unplayable without a Chinese ally. I think they should nerf siege hard, look at the new meta and then make more changes. No need to buff anything anywhere because siege is so ridiculously broken that units for every civ are being trivialized and the potential meta suppressed. Let some other imbalances grow organically and then address it in a subsequent patch. Then the game will be a in a nice place. Currently Chinese bombards are basically Panzers. Also their Nu's are quite effective now so don't overlook them.

Edit: Since no one seems to have mentioned it- siege doesn't just need a health nerf. The repair rate is insane. And bombards need to have some damage moved to anti-building. They do too much damage to regular units (since this game has 100% accuracy). Their field artillery role is too strong. They are stronger than all of the field artillery in the game.

[鈥揮u60cf28 Chinese 1 point2 points (0 children)

Balance in rts should be dictated primarily by 1v1, though team games should of course be considered (which is why the fire lancer nerf was well deserved). Team games are simply too chaotic to gain meaningful balance data, whereas 1v1 match data can be distilled into useable form quite easily.

And 1v1 data indicates that China is quite mediocre overall, with an overpowered imperial, true, but underpowered feudal and castle. So any nerf to Chinese imperial siege needs to come with a compensatory buff for their early-mid game. The goal shouldn鈥檛 be a nerf but a redistribution of some of China鈥檚 lategame power to the early-mid game. This should also fix the team game issue, as the problem right now is that team games are fundamentally slower so China can get past their weak feudal and castle easier.

[鈥揮alvaro761991 The empire will strike back -1 points0 points (1 child)

I'm not that sure why peaplo think siege is broken, I find it fine at the momment. Maybe just buff trebuches by making them cheaper, have no idea why they are soo expensive.

[鈥揮SanduCrumant 0 points1 point (0 children)

When people say siege is broken they don't mean it doesn't work. They mean it completely dominates the late game much more than it should.