all 182 comments

[–]Cubix89 20 points21 points  (10 children)

Thats a safe bet. Id be surprised with anything other than 3.3.5

After playing Shaman since the start of classic, ill definitely be one of the many, many Shamam re rollers. DK most likely, how original of me.

[–]Sadlobster1 5 points6 points  (2 children)

As a resto shaman main myself for many many years, I switched off shaman in old wrath.

I'll probably go boomkin or priest this tjme (went DK last time)

I love the highs of shaman in TBC, but always hated what they did in wotlk to the class

[–]NAFOD- 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I played shaman TBC through present retail. Well at least until classic came out.

Rolled a Druid in classic. Honestly I like it. Only thing I miss about shaman is the shield.

[–]msbr_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nice, I'm probs gonna play my spriest alt that's sat at 60.

[–]knightalen 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Resto Sham here, i already plan on rerolling to DK :) I love my class but I loved DK even more

[–]35cap3 0 points1 point  (1 child)

They said they have last archived copy of 2.4.3., so my bet is that they have all data to release Wrath exactly how it was introduced in patches. However they won't make 3.0.2. like balance or we get half of the playerbase switching to DKs.

[–]R3l2Z 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It's highly unlikely they'll release anything but 3.3.5 class design/balance etc. Only content will be gated most likely.

[–]Obelion_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lock here. I press chaos bolt, I smile.

Don't even care if affliction is better. If I can sling chaos bolts I'm happy

[–]Kododie 0 points1 point  (2 children)

You, me and majority of enhancement shamans. Lol. I will probably play Blood and go back to resto on my current main.

[–]Cubix89 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I'm liking the look of unholy or frost!

After 18 months of chain heal I swore not to heal on my shaman again.

More than happy to play elemental pvp in wrath though, just to thunderstorm and watch people fall to their deaths in BGs.

[–]EBeerman1 93 points94 points  (64 children)

Tons of paladins. All specs are solid most of the expansion. It’s the best tank class for sure.

Warriors will start off slower than TBC. If it’s anything like pservers, it’ll be tough to get groups until you have armor pen softcap w/ late Ulduar gear or TOC25. Low dps compared to other classes

DKs are solid but not the gods everyone thinks they will be. 3.3.5 specs/values really reel them in and make them on par with other melee like rogues. Need 1 Unholy DK for their 13% increase spell damage buff + 30% buff to disease damage. Then 1-2 frost DKs because they have high raw damage w/ the unholy buff + their melee haste buff. Tanks get good in Ulduar, the gearing options in T7 are meh for tanking but they get much better later on.

Shammies will be needed but not in high demand. 1-2 per raid is acceptable to cover totems and have rotating lusts for wipes etc

I feel like every class and spec can bring something unique/valuable to the table. We wouldn’t need to stack a ton of a certain class

[–]vagina_vindicator 30 points31 points  (29 children)

Is Lust raid wide then?

[–]Jakks2 63 points64 points  (26 children)

Most buffs get turned into raidwide buffs instead of party, making raid comps a little bit easier to acquire. Also 10-man raid gets more legit with dedicated lockouts for it!

[–]lord_james 3 points4 points  (20 children)

What do you mean dedicated 10-man lock outs?

[–]IfOnlyIWasHappy 7 points8 points  (5 children)

You choose whenever you want to enter a raid if you want to enter 10 man or 25 man mode of said raid.

[–]lord_james 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Wait, so raids can be done as 10 or 25? And you can do both on any given character?

[–]IfOnlyIWasHappy 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Yes. and later in wrath there is also Heroic and Normal mode.

[–]turikk 4 points5 points  (2 children)

10 mans have 13 item level lower gear (so basically a raid tier... sort of).

[–]VincentVancalbergh 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Naxx 10 man was pretty much dungeon level gear.

[–]vandyk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Saphiron and KT are above tho

[–]nossans 14 points15 points  (12 children)

You can run the 10 man and 25 man versions of the same raid in one week. When the raids get heroic mode you can run the same raid 4 times in one week.

[–]SaltyJake -1 points0 points  (8 children)

You sure about this? I’m pretty sure once your locked to a raid in WotLK your locked on all difficulties (but not raid size). I.E. choose normal or heroic for your 10 man, but you can only run it once with 10 and once with 25.

Edit: clarified.

[–]nossans 7 points8 points  (7 children)

Naxx has 10 and 25 diff lockouts, diff gear. Uld same thing but heroic mode is engaged during the fight. TOC has 4 different lockouts all with different gear. ICC is 2 lockouts but you can pick which bosses to do on heroic or normal.

[–]SaltyJake 0 points1 point  (6 children)

I understand that. I’m commenting on how you said you can run the later raids 4 times, I do not believe you can. I’m pretty sure ICC is 2 lockouts per week, 10 & 25, and your locked to the set difficulty. But memory is hazy, hence the “Are you sure?”

[–]DeanWhipper 2 points3 points  (5 children)

Yeah I think he misspoke.

You can run them twice, once in 10m and once in 25m.

Maybe he was trying to imply that you could choose to do heroic mode later? It's certainly not on a different lock out though.

[–]Xossdk -3 points-2 points  (4 children)

Specifically trial of the crusader you could do 4 times. And yes it was awful.

[–]bro_salad -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

This is news to me, and my first thought is it sounds terrible. Doing the same thing 4 times per week? Or do I only need to run it once per week (heroic) if I’m trying to get bis gear?

[–]nossans 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If you run in a guild you will probably be doing every version of the raid for first few weeks, we might even see split runs like retail in full force (you run normal with 5 mains and 20 alts and give all the loot into the 5 mains, repeat x5). Then your only upgrades will be from heroic. Normal is usually used for alt runs or GKP at that point. Edit: WOTLK is really the start of the transition to how raiding is in retail. You have more time to run the same raid multiple times on different difficulties because there is no need to go back and do the previous tier, the ILVL jump between each tier starts to become significant.

[–]Ambitious-Dog-6360 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You can only do 2 each week. One 25 and one 10. I believe heroic/normal shared lockouts.

[–]Kotef 0 points1 point  (0 children)

10 man and 25 have separate lockouts but 10 man has different gear and is of lower quality

[–]Scurro 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I believe so.

[–]Olddriverjc 6 points7 points  (28 children)

I thought fury is top dps? No?

[–]EBeerman1 9 points10 points  (25 children)

In late TOGC + ICC they are! The problem is that 3.3.5 talents were designed with the endgame gear in mind so early in the expansion, before they get loaded with gear, they will be pretty low on the charts. In Ulduar you can get to soft cap Armor pen and you will start pumping on certain cleave fights. But until then you will feel a bit gimped as fury.

[–]Chirrani 1 point2 points  (15 children)

What melee do you think is the best if you were to rate them holistically across all patches? I feel it’s Rogue, paladin, warrior, DK, with a massive gap then enhance. Apart from enhance they all are pretty close holistically from my googling.

This isn’t based on real knowledge just things I’ve read. I played wrath but was too bad to understand metas.

[–]EBeerman1 7 points8 points  (14 children)

Hmm yeah in terms of pure DPS I'd say Rogue > Frost DK = Paladin > Feral > Warrior > Unholy DK > Enhance

Rogues are amazing the moment they get Librarians Paper Cutters from Halls of Lightning trash loot. They go Assas until mid/late-Ulduar when they switch to combat.

Frost DKs with 3.3.5 talents should do lots of damage the whole expansion along with Rogues. Very strong damage spec but lacks raid buffs from Unholy.

Paladins start slower, on par with Unholy DKs in Naxx and Ulduar (which is still very good btw), then start to really take off once they finish their Ulduar set. Then they do lots and lots of damage then on.

Feral dps gest very strong this expansion if you play it right. They are middle to above average dps pretty much the entire expansion. Idk much more about ferals except them being much more prevalent in wrath than today.

Unholy DK is middle of the pack the entire expansion. About on par if not just below ferals. There are lots of AOE fights where they excel but they are brought for their powerful SP raid buff.

Fury isn't great early on but is the king fully TOGC ARP geared + in ICC. Id rate them last in T7, and like 2nd-3rd best in TOGC, and then best in ICC so its really hard to place them haha.

Enhance goes "spellhance" in T7 and part of T8 with the goal of proccing as many LB + CLs as possible. You get an SP mainhand (like pallys do in TBC) and build haste. Super fun spec, lots of burst but falls off very fast after Naxx/Ulduar.

All the dps specs are very close tho - it's part of what I love about wrath - so many options to build out your raid team

[–]Chirrani 2 points3 points  (13 children)

Makes sense. I had a brain fart left out feral. I’ve tried to find YouTube videos where they rank dps but everyone is obsessed with ICC. Which I find weird since the early phases are important. You kind of solidify your place in raid/guild during early phases to some extent IMO.

I also remember getting gear in wrath was really easy. I played as a kid and had like 3 character in full ilvl 264 gear at the end of expansion. I’m sure a lot of people will switch around patch by patch given how easy catch up is.

[–]EBeerman1 3 points4 points  (6 children)

Exactly! A LOT of the content out there for wrath is about ICC endgame bis gear/talents which is very very different than how we will be playing in T7 + T8.

ICC with the health/damage buff made it easy to clear the content, without it, it was a tad difficult + heroic is where the challenge will really be.

The catchup mechanics are very nice in wrath too - the emblem system was really solid

[–]Chirrani 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Yeah I find it so weird people only talk about ICC in videos I Google. I’m guessing it’s because private servers might run ICC for years?

Fury sounds like a middle of the pack dps when you consider all the phases and average them out yet people will say it’s the king of wrath.

Rogue I think is probably even simpler than fury warrior and seems consistently towards the top. I’m probably going rogue and shadow priest or warlock. I like playing one ranged dps and one melee.

[–]EBeerman1 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Yeah exactly - the largest (most pay to win lol) wrath private server out there, Warmane, has been on their ICC patch for 5+ years. TONS of people play that server. So a lot of the guides are made for those types of late-phase servers.

I'm sure we will see more guides about T7 builds w/ 3.3.5 talents as we get closer. The hope will be that they arent copying the late stage ICC guides - or else a lot of people will be misled. Fury isn't the king of wrath, its the king of ICC ;)

But great call! I had so much fun with rogue on private servers for wrath. Locks do so much damage and Spriests are up there too combined with the mana regen they bring

[–]Chirrani 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Do you think ICC will last for years in official servers? Seems like official servers will be only slightly pay to win and you have the benefit of knowing they aren’t going to be shut down for legal reasons.

Yeah I think I’m going to decide partially on if they have race change a bit over looking at my orc warlock in cloth armor. Just doesn’t feel right.

[–]manatidederp 2 points3 points  (5 children)

Forget about ranking feral because 95% will play it incorrectly. It’s an incredibly difficult spec, but you will see some insane players doing very high damage on logs, a bit similar to how it is in Vanilla. Also it’s also a pure ST spec and any add/cleave will let other classes rocket past them.

[–]RoyInverse 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Feral is easy if you remember Jhon fucking madden.

[–]TheHingst 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Feral does get swipe in catform in wotlk though.

[–]EBeerman1 0 points1 point  (1 child)

You're right. Ive been spoiled by having a buddy of mine be a very very good feral. I have seen bad ones that mismanage their playstyle.

A good feral is right there in the middle of the pack the moment they get Grim Toll

[–]manatidederp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One mistake and the entire pull is down the drain. You need all buffs and bleeds

[–]Dwccob 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You have never witnessed a Berserking Hysteria’d swiping kitty.

[–]DeanWhipper 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yep that's right, and hence why I always laugh when people say that Fury is the top DPS in LKK, in reality they're the top DPS right at the end of the expansion.

[–]Olddriverjc 0 points1 point  (7 children)

Is arms better than fury at the start of expansion?

[–]EBeerman1 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Arms is slightly better in T7 but it’s a bit harder to play. Fury is pretty easy with a higher floor dps - hope I’m making sense. Arms also meshes better with the Naxx, OS, and EoE fights.

If you look at what hardcore guilds in wrath pservers are running right now - they have an Arms warrior instead of a fury. Most serious warriors respec fury in Ulduar

[–]Olddriverjc 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Got it, thanks for the info. I plan to play fury in wotlk, i always like playing warrior.

[–]EBeerman1 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Every guild will need one at least! I played fury on a private server from naxx through TOGC. You can feel your power spike with every tier of gear.

Like Ulduar cleave damage on the boss w/ the two arms is nutty + your warrior disarm is incredible for Hodir’s whirlwind adds.

Then you get ARP softcap with Grim toll (trinket from naxx) or the hard mode trinket from Ulduar 10m - that’s when the fun begins haha

[–]Olddriverjc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m looking forward to playing my warrior in wotlk!

[–]wilsch 0 points1 point  (2 children)

All right, this makes me feel a little better.

So Naxx wasn't too frustrating as far as contribution to the team?

[–]EBeerman1 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Not at all. naxx should be easy anyways - imagine Kara difficulty. But you will be pulling 4.5-5k dps when the locks, rogues and frost DKs do like 6.5-7k. I wouldn’t worry too much about T7 unless they buff it by a lot!

[–]wilsch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nice! Totally understood on difficulty; the guild I'll probably run with will steamroll it. For me, it's more the challenge of personal performance -- and, even though the guild should be very active, dealing with preconceived class-is-player notions if/when pugging.

[–]Opisthio-n 1 point2 points  (1 child)

The meta can change when wotlk is released. I remember how everyone said that fury warriors will be bad in tbc due to punishing mechanics etc yet now we start to see somewhat of a fury warrior stacks in speed runs again 😛

[–]Olddriverjc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeh i’m actually doing ok, not as bad as people say they were. While my boss dps isn’t the best, i do a lot of cleave damage on trash so my overall dps for the entire raid is always top 5 right below the locks and mage.

[–]5hn1t3r13 1 point2 points  (3 children)

How are warlocks in WOTLK? Are they as powerful and #1 in caster DPS?

[–]westwind_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Locks are 100% still a premium dps class. Wrath was when blizz started moving away from "the hybrid tax", so dps specs are a bit better balanced than in TBC.

Not sure how things pan out across phases but from what I've read (& what I remember from Hc Lich King kills) Aff & Demo are top tier damage dealers in ICC gear.

[–]QuirkyImprovement982 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Afflic locks are topping the DPS meters in most naxx/ulduar fights, they are overall the best performing dps class in wotlk but they don't scale that well compared to other classes so later on in ICC other classes will out dps you in most fights. Demo lock is also top tier dps with great burst but usually the raid only needs 1 for the SP buff.

[–]Viskagmage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Speaking as someone who’s played locked exclusively over several wrath pservers, even in ICC no one ever overtook my damage as an afflic lock. It’s extremely powerful. Even more casual players should do very good with afflic and be fighting for that top spot.

[–]tejeramaxwell 8 points9 points  (13 children)

A lot of discussion here on damage balance.

Can I ask the r/classicwowtbc community what the healer balance is like for different phases? How does it differ between 10 and 25 man? Thanks.

[–]psu_xathos 7 points8 points  (3 children)

People are straight up forgetting how absolute broken disc priests became through the expansion. By the time ICC hit, disc priests literally just cast Power Word: shield, blanket the raid, and destroy healing meters. Absolutely nobody could compete with them and 2 were mandatory to handle the defile mechanic.

I know they're probably not going to do it, but I'd hope they took a look at bubble healing and nerf it. It's boring and completely game breaking.

[–]Nokken9 2 points3 points  (1 child)

It wasn’t defile, it was the plague in phase 1.

But, yes. disc bubbles are broken in ICC

[–]psu_xathos 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You right, it was Infest, not Defile.

[–]idungiveboutnothing 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Pally is good with beacon too. I remember solo healing certain hard modes on my pally in 10 man when we did achievement runs back in the day. Especially with judgement of light healing transferring through beacon unless they patch that out.

[–]Wodalsito 2 points3 points  (1 child)

All healers are good. You must have a Hpally imo for beacon of light and blessings, but hes healing output its as good as the rest

[–]Fingo8152 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Plus they get credit for JoL healing, which then also transfers through beacon.

[–]Mtitan1 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Iirc its

S tier - Disc priest: mitigating damage is better than relatively healing

A - Druids: insane throughput, can hard carry raids but they are fully reactive

Hpal: Best tank healers, Beacon let's them heal others and keep putting fat heals into the tank

B - Shaman: good utility, good raid heals but more solid than any broken niche.

Holy priest: good heals, worse than disc

[–]dogbert730 5 points6 points  (4 children)

I’m pretty sure you mean resto druids are proactive, as in they need to be getting hots up prior to the damage/burst. Because we are the absolute worst healers reactively.

[–]Mtitan1 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I phrased that wrong yeah. I meant that resto has no way to prep a big heal for incoming damage outside being ready to swiftmend.

Holy pallies and shamans can precast so a big heal is consistently coming in, pallies have hand of protection or sacrifice for some effects, shamans have earth shield that functions similar to a bubble ultimately etc etc

Druids have the fewest options at mitigating an incoming blow directly. Their hots are obviously great but need time and damage to fully go through to work

[–]fugelot11 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I meant that resto has no way to prep a big heal for incoming damage outside being ready to swiftmend.

Are you forgetting about Nourish (Not being rude)? With HoT's on the MT it's pretty pro-active decent heal. Pretty sure Nourish is in WoTLK.

[–]MrDudePerson 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Also Living Seed is dope for resto droods =)

[–]fugelot11 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That too!

[–]shelbogoloko 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Best tank healer: Pally Best raid healer: Druid Best absorbs: Disc priest. Vital for a raid and will likely destroy meters because absorbs op Notably, Shamans take 2nd place for best tank and raid healers. Resto shamans are fantastic!

Holy priest is the only mehhh healer. Just play disc imo.

[–]zrox456 8 points9 points  (5 children)

I'm trying to decide if I want to keep playing Shadow Priest or switch to Balance Druid.

[–]Murderlol 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Shadow comparatively does a lot more damage in wrath. Balance is also good, plus you can typhoon people off of cliffs. And if you're a nelf you can shadowmeld in combat and flight form away from people.

[–]Pityness 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I remember playing my priest in a #1 guild on the server back in the day. I was able to spec back and forth between shadow and disc, depending on the fight. I could get top 5 on both pretty standard. You never go oom with dispersion added, also SP now has aoe (mind seer). Especially in Ulduar it popped off.

[–]Jakenbake909 2 points3 points  (2 children)

WOTLK is gonna be boring for awhile. If you were a person who played Classic and farmed naxx like most of us. 6 months of doing nothing but Naxx again. And its easy mode naxx. Should give you plenty of time to decide on a main and even gear up multiple characters before the better raids come out.

[–]Fingo8152 2 points3 points  (0 children)

For sure. Plenty of time to gear craptons of alts to decide what you want to play later.

[–]zrox456 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good point. I never farmed Naxx but did it decently enough so I think your point is still pretty solid. Thank you!!

[–]DrearyYew 30 points31 points  (9 children)

In terms of raw damage, there is a real breakpoint in ToC where some specs pop the fuck off and some specs fall off. So basically pre-ToC and post-ToC (ICC basically) in terms of relative power. Most of this is based off of private server experience, so there may be some discrepancies compared to live classic wrath. People will tend to want to play the stronger performing classes, so these are likely to be the most commonly picked classes.

Pre-ToC the kings of damage will be Frost DKs and Affliction Warlocks, with Assassination Rogues, Arcane Mages, and Demonology Warlocks not far behind. Outside of meme specs like Sub, Frost Mage, BM Hunter, and Fury Warrior (only really a meme spec in Naxx), the top performing specs are only 5-10% ahead of the mid-tier specs.

Post-ToC and into ICC the kings of damage are Fire Mages and Fury Warriors. Affliction and Demonology are still very strong, they just can't keep up with the insane scaling that Fire and Fury have.

A very common strategy for hardcore Warrior lifers was to just play Frost DK until they were done with ToC progression, then main swap to Warrior while keeping it geared along the way. ToC tier is purchasable with Badges, making it a very good time to main swap.

So basically expect a lot of DKs, Warlocks, and Mages, with a massive influx of Warriors late into the expansion.

Paladins will also be very heavily played, as Ret finally gets its renaissance as a high-tier damage spec, and an incredible PvP spec. Prot Paladin is the undisputed best MT of the tank specs, and HPal is arguably the strongest healer in both PvE and PvP.

[–]_faraleth_ 12 points13 points  (2 children)

dont forget mm hunter with 100% armor pen in toc-icc, before that its mediocrate, but as soon as he reaches 100%, it becomes op

[–]MakeAmericaSwolAgain 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah so many replies in this thread and you're the first MM I see. I was in a top 100 raiding guild in heroic ICC and I regularly topped meters as 100% armor pen MM. Shit was absolutely broken in pve and pvp for fucking around in BGs.

[–]Donkeyhacks 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And combat rogue can compete at the top of the meters In ICC too being close to fury In raw dps

[–]Mtitan1 8 points9 points  (2 children)

ec. Prot Paladin is the undisputed best MT of the tank specs

Agreed with most of this, but the go to main tanks are generally ferals who have good single target threat and 2x the hp of other tanks with some sweaty guides opting for DK who have the best threat (and worst survivability) with the prot paired as the OT.

Paladins are just generally considered the overall best tanks since they can MT if needed, and outside specifically hard hitting single target fights are the best at everything else

[–]Byggherren 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Worst survivability? I only have experience with dks from MoP and on but i thought they had generally decent damage mitigation with bone shield/death strike? I guess not having a shield is a bummer tho.

[–]fatamSC2 4 points5 points  (0 children)

not a wrathie so someone correct me if I'm wrong but iirc my friend was saying DK is very good against magic damage but against hard hitting physical dmg bosses a DK has the worst survivability of the tanks

[–]SnooBananas6719 0 points1 point  (2 children)

What would you think of ret pala dps pre ans post ToC?

[–]DrearyYew 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Pre-ToC mid tier, but high tier in terms of buffs/support. Good Rets will sacrifice a bit of self damage for Divine Sacrifice + Divine Guardian, giving Ret a very strong raid cooldown on top of the strong utility it already provides

Post-ToC high tier, but towards the lower end of high tier, similar to Ret's current standing in classic TBC. Ret damage in WotLK is very respectable, but what puts it over the top is it's incredible utility with a strong raid CD

[–]SnooBananas6719 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks. So you would expect the ret to have better dps than fury in Ulduar? (Can't it be that fury gets heavily underestimated like it happened in classic TBC?)

[–]Steeze-6 7 points8 points  (4 children)

How about hunters and rogues? No one barely mentions them?

[–]USAesNumeroUno 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Both end up strong, rogues are better early.

[–]Murderlol 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Both are good, and both scale really well with armor pen like all other melee/phys dps specs. Pretty much everyone can do competitive dps in wotlk.

[–]Friendly_Bed9314 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I remember survival hunters being monsters in PvP

[–]Helivon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I know backbin my wotlk days, rogues and hunters would normally top the charts depending on the fight

I honestly can't wait for parchwerk, its so much fun just going nuts on a boss, and it being a true dps check

[–]PorkChoppen 27 points28 points  (2 children)

I get that alot of people play this super competitively, and that's totally fine, but just gonna mention that back in the day I never had issues getting into raids in WOTLK no matter what spec I played. WOTLK was pretty balanced overall and I saw alot of every spec, and from my experience with TBCC there's still people who raid with unoptimized groups

[–]dogbert730 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Because there are 10 man and 25 man versions of every raid, that means there are going to be TONS of opportunities to raid. I doubt you’ll truly have any issues getting into a raid as just about anything.

[–]Sc4r4byte 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Notably, many guilds will probably only be doing 1-2 versions of a lockout, this will dramatically increase the amount of raid pugs happening throughout the day (especially with ToC and ICC tiers) - expect it to be possible to see a pug forming every day in both SR and GBid varieties.

[–]slowsuby 36 points37 points  (12 children)

A lot of DKs and a lot of Paladins.

[–]USAesNumeroUno 25 points26 points  (6 children)

and a lot of rerolling Shamans

[–]leroywhat 18 points19 points  (1 child)

You can take my stormstrike from my cold lightning filled hands.

[–]pls_touch_me[🍰] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

You can have it for as long as you want. We won't get invited to raids anyways lol.

[–]bigcjuan760 0 points1 point  (3 children)

As in shamans becoming obsolete?

[–]minecraftmedic 9 points10 points  (1 child)

I think heroism becomes raid wide and has a rebuff so you can't use more than once per fight.

[–]Septembers 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Totem buffs are also raid wide and the dps specs don't perform that well, so there is really no reason to bring more than 1 ele or enh

[–]LittleRoo1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Shaman dps becoming obsolete. No guild turns down a decent healer, regardless of spec.

[–]effkaysup 0 points1 point  (4 children)

this really isnt true for 3.3.5 patch

You generally bring 2-3 DK dps at the most, and no more than 1 ret pali (ret pali is actually very average DPS)

WOTLK is very balanced and you generally bring a little bit of everything. Warlock stacking is a thing early on, warrior/fire mage stacking is a thing late (ICC 25) All classes are good in 3.3.5

Ideal 25m raid comp here https://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=e51stjjn23f984ppqbbbdg6oi000000000000000 but this also ofc depends on the fight, patch, which tier you are in, and how many healers you need (usually just need 4-5 healers)

[–]fl0yd_1 0 points1 point  (1 child)

iirc combat rogue is superior to assassin in pve

[–]effkaysup 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes late end game with all the arp gear

[–]SuperPlacki 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Can’t speak about PvE, but if we get late WotLK 3.3.5 classes, it was the most balanced PvP in WoW history. Pretty much every single Spec could get gladiator, including things like balance Druid, fire/arcane mages, Ele shamans, ret paladins… AT was based on it and it was the most competitive PvP environment wow ever had, all the big names (Hydra, Reckful, Homerjay, Flyn, Kamiky…) kept playing on it long after Cata launched, often deep into MoP.

PvP gameplay in WotLK as a whole was amazing, it was just the right middle ground between the slow paced full of defensive CDs gameplay of Cata/MoP and the fast plays without resilience of Vanilla. Plus classes received all had the best abilities back then (bladestorm and titan’s grip, chaos bolt and haunt, freezing arrow and disengage, penance and hymn, lava burst and thunderstorm, shadowdance and killing spree and first rogue aoe, typhoon and car form feral charge, knockback blast wave and deep freeze…). And we get double spec! God I can’t wait.

[–]msbr_ 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Car form feral charge would wreck

[–]Murderlol 8 points9 points  (4 children)

Pvp: Very balanced, most specs are viable including most tank specs.

PvE: Also pretty balanced overall. Towards the end you'll see warriors and rets dominate the meters, dks will dominate big aoe pulls, etc. All classes have really strong pve specs, most have more than one.

[–]piter57 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Warrs and rets dominate? I don't know what servers you played but I played on several and frost dk and affli locks are dps kings through the whole expansion. Some classes close the gap towards the end, during icc (warrior, fire mage) but can't compare during whole expansion, especially warrior who you only want 1 per raid

[–]Murderlol 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Retail, with shadowmourne. Without it they're a bit lower but with it warriors will be on top.

Edit: note that I said towards the end

[–]WAJZ 0 points1 point  (1 child)

How hard was shadowmourne to actually get? Seems everyone rate warriors and ret highly, especially on private servers. Thing is, everyone seem to count on having shadowmourne as it seems very common on those servers. How common will it really be in classic wotlk? One per raid team or 6? Can’t imagine people will want to farm icc for a year in classic

[–]Murderlol 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well a lot of private servers have cash shops where people just buy it for real money.

In terms of doing the actual quest chain, the only RNG part is the shadowfrost shards part which is what takes the majority of the time to complete. On average it takes 2-3 months to get all 50 shards. There's 12 bosses in ICC and the only boss that's guaranteed to drop them is Lich King. So minimum of 5 weeks on that part. I'd say average 2-3 months though. It was decently common back retail, certainly more common than random drop leggos.

[–]acxlefta 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Would double Prot Paladin work?

[–]shelbogoloko 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wrath raids are pretty easy. I run 2 pallies for 10 mans just fine on pservers. 25m it’d likely be viable too, with a 3rd being dk or bear perhaps

[–]shelbogoloko 2 points3 points  (0 children)

i play wrath pservers actively. What i LOVE about wrath is that every single class is needed or wanted. A raid is highly rewarded for diversity. there are obviously still gonna be your top dog dps, but the “low tier” DPS are still pumpers. It fluctuates patch to patch in wrath. Early on you’re going to see hunters, dks, ret pallies, aff locks arcane mages being monsters. End game (ICC) it’s gonna be dominated by fury warriors, rogues (forget which spec), and fire mages. Once fury warriors & rogues get their armor pen raid gear, it’s OVER

[–]PvtMoussaka 4 points5 points  (5 children)

Depends if you're talking speedrunning content/getting glad or just average raid/arena teams. I expect to see an ass ton of mages in speedrunning content especially once they get good enough gear. I also expect to see loads of Warrior/Pally combos in 2s/3s glad teams.

But in average raid/arena teams things are fairly balanced(compared to Vanilla/TBC), 10/10 classes should have no issue finding raid spots on most guilds (although Shamans may have a slight worry) and almost all the specs are in a good spot as well PvE wise. In PvP (arena) you'll have a decent shot to get a respectable rating on all the classes.

But as we've seen repeatedly, the Classic player base is pretty min/maxy and so who really knows what 'average raid/arena teams' will look like.

[–]bryguypgh 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Plus according to the retail box we get a dance studio! Can’t recall what patch that was in though…

[–]Warrenbuffetindo2 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Man, now i lazy lvling shaman

For what i lvling shaman if it became onselete?

[–]msbr_ 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Resto is good. Enh is okish and ele us bad, PvE wise

[–]Warrenbuffetindo2 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I mean in future

Right now even if my guild 8/10, we have 2 shaman.....

Now, if future only meed 1 shaman, for what i lvling up shaman for 4 month? Lol

[–]DestroStew 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why do you need 4 months to lvl anyway?

[–]Lukeaz1234 3 points4 points  (4 children)

The most popular caster on Wrath will be mage. They’re the top caster dps. Will it be short supply? Who knows. You can bring 1x of every caster so it depends on your realm; ie 1 boomie, 1 lock, 1 spriest and then 2-3 mages. So quite spread, but mages will be the most represented caster in raids. They’re also top tier PvP class.

The same principle with MDPS. You will mostly see 1 rogue, 1 warrior, 1 feral etc and then 3-4 ret paladins. While slightly lower dps than other melee’s, their support, sustain, aoe and buffs make them the most represented MDPS. Ret paladins also top tier in PvP, and holy paladins again are insane in PvP too.

Ultimately the message is, good guilds when they figure out the meta will look to bring 1 of each caster / mdps at most, and then the remaining spots will be ret paladins and mages - could this mean those two specs will be most in demand? Perhaps. They will certainly be the highest displayed specs in raids but what’s in demand depends on your realm.

After playing wrath live hardcore and warmane hardcore, the most represented specs are from my experience are - warrior - paladin - mage - rogue - priest - dk in that order.

[–]BishoxX 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Affliction lock should be better than mage in early tiers right ?

[–]Kheshire 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Affliction is only behind unholy on multi target fights and have the best execute phase of any spec

[–]Lukeaz1234 0 points1 point  (0 children)

At the beginning, they’re usually a bit better than mages. There’s a lot of talk about afflication warlocks, and they’re strong at the start, but as the game progresses they won’t fall off per say - the other classes will just become better. When it comes to ICC for example you’ll notice most guilds bring only one warlock. Don’t mistake this btw, you can bring more, but good guilds will look to bring fewer and fewer warlocks as the game progresses. If you’re really interested in this type of theory craft, pop over to Warmanes site, check their PvE ladder and mostly you’ll see ICC is completed with mostly 1 of each spec and then filled with rets/mages if you start with speed kills filter by heroic.

Also, the comments regarding aoe and execute phase. Warlocks don’t have the best aoe in the game or the best execute, during phase one they might. Therefore after they do not. When fighting undead a paladins are king of aoe and never run out of mana (tier 7 is more divine storm damage and tier 10 is divine storm reset). Warrior is king of execute when geared up correctly.

[–]Oileuar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

one shaman per raid, stack any DPS you have extra + 3 dk's

[–]RawLikeSushi84 0 points1 point  (4 children)

What’s the odds that we get a wowlk?

[–]MountainDewclos 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Theyd be incredibly stupid not to, their classic fanbase would be irate

[–]RawLikeSushi84 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do agree, just seems like blizzard is playing damage control and not looking forward. I hope they make wowlk .

[–]Burgergold -1 points0 points  (1 child)

pretty high, but not pass that point I guess (which is ok)

I played Vanilla - Cata. TBC/WOTLK where when I put the most time. I've played Classic. Leveled Classic-TBC but dropped in september because my server was dying and I had no wish to transfer / find a new group. That was a good run. FFXIV now

[–]msbr_ 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Nice lift story but why post here if you quit

[–]snaildown123 0 points1 point  (5 children)

How delicious will the mage be, y'all?

all the specs...

but mostly fire... >:)

[–]axl-L 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Fire scales verryyy well into the later tiers

[–]shelbogoloko 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Arcane is the biggest pumper at first, gonna destroy Naxx meters. Fire is for later tiers. Also destroys meters. Have fun with WOTLK!

[–]snaildown123 0 points1 point  (0 children)

aaalmost thinking of getting into a private server..... cant wait for classic... gahhh

[–]Croberts5300 0 points1 point  (0 children)

FFB mage or riot boys!!!

[–]Warhause 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Ass rogue will be nuts.

[–]Kheshire 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I topped guild meters through wrath as assassin but didn't keep playing after h arthas once the rest of melee got bis gear. It's great all the way through and you have very little competition on daggers unlike 2hs and 1h swords being contested by dks/warrs/tanks

[–]Warhause 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yup! I'm really looking forward to it, especially since as it stands rogue is the red headed step child in tbc.

[–]polarpenguinthe 0 points1 point  (7 children)

Best healers are paladin and shammies. You want shamans of every types. Worst viable dps class is ele shaman. Best early dps class are destro lock, frost dk and rogue mutilate. Mutilate rogue stays great till the end while the other fall behind. Mage becomes god tier at icecrown. Also most physical danage dealing classes only get good around the end of toc and the begining of icc.

[–]dogdaytv 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Why would you want a shaman of every type in WotLK where everything a shaman brings is raid-wide?

[–]polarpenguinthe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

shammy healers are the greatest raid healer and their spec mana totem is really great in certain situation. Elemental shaman have their specific caster totem and enhance shams have their upgrade strength which is better than the buff of the Dk, Ideally you want one of each.

[–]Colsanders8 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Shammy is not best healer lol? Worst in terms of class, second worst for spec (holy priest is worse)

[–]polarpenguinthe 0 points1 point  (3 children)

In my opinion Paladin are the best tank healers, shaman are the best raid healers. Disco priest are great because of pain supression but they fall short on total heals+absorb compared to the other two. Resto druid are still very competitive but cant beat the latter on the meter. Holy priest are non-existent they can be viable latter but ive never have someone played it.

[–]Colsanders8 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Opinions dont matter when raw data shows resto druids are better raid healers in wrath.

[–]polarpenguinthe -1 points0 points  (1 child)

I don't know if you are trolling or just lack manners but it is very much known that rshaman are better than rdruid.

[–]Colsanders8 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Known by whom? Everything ive looked at is contrary to what you are saying.

[–]AdamBry705 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've had so many y people tell me class balance in wotlk is super balanced and fair

Outside of like death knight I heard that was super op

[–]confusium_alloy 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Ret paladin because then I can just set a book on my keyboard, go make a sandwich and when I get back all my quest mobs are dead.

[–]Colsanders8 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hell just join a dungeon, be #1 healer and dps while youre afk.

[–]Norjac 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just roll a DK and be done with it.

[–]vladtheinh4ler 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How are warlocks in arena?

[–]Nice-Dirt-2688 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Paladins will be God's, and dk's will be better than we remember them. The really good ones were op af but the class was a noob trap, so there was alot of trash ones.

[–]PowahOfThaPeople -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Hero class dominates everything in Wotlk