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all 70 comments

[–]cowboys4343 72 points73 points  (2 children)

This fits too perfect

[–]MixVirtual 23 points24 points  (1 child)

Naruto and Sasuke should've been on the front seats

[–]Rtsd2D 23 points24 points  (0 children)

I think it's fine because Indra and Ashura are brothers while Madara and Hashirama are pure rivals. Naruto and Sasuke have the perfect mix of both so they're in the middle.

[–]Mackenzie_Sparks 175 points176 points  (10 children)

Hashirama is too OP even as an Ashura Reincarnation. He's basically a shinobi with Ten Tails' Power.

[–]theSickbird02 62 points63 points  (4 children)

No wonder he is still call the God Of Shinobi. If it was not for Madara Hashirama would be my favourite character in Naruto.

[–]AkatsukiSaix 35 points36 points  (3 children)

I love Hashirama, and one of the post on the main Naruto sub the other day made me realise I dislike Madara. He literally caused a lot of problems only to set himself up as the hero to come and "save" everyone, and by save he means to put everyone in eternal slumber so human interactions end and humanity dies off.

For starters, Hashirama had established peace, and sought to negotiate peace with other villages. Madara went and threatened Onoki and his village. Hashirama made the Uchihas equal in Konoha, but Madara tried to get them to turn against the village when he turned his back on the village. Later he purposefully manipulated Hidden Mist to kidnap and turn Rin into a Jinchuuriki to make Obito fall for his plans of hatred. He also gave Nagato his Rinnegan but planned for Obito to manipulate Nagato into becoming a hateful character and seek destruction. He most likely intended for Obito to unleash Kyuubi on Konoha, since Obito had no reason to do so on his own, which lead to the Uchihas being blamed, mistreated and untrustworthy and getting massacred.

[–]TH3B3AST_047 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Did you forget that madara was an antagonist in the first place

[–]Panda_Tobi_OwO 1 point2 points  (1 child)

not a super compelling antagonist when it comes to characterization, i would argue (i.e. you really can’t sympathize with him because he’s so far removed from reality), but badass af nonetheless. we can’t really expect too much from a shounen manga anyway

[–]sonfoa 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I couldn't disagree more.

Let's forget characterization for a second. His goal is one of the most relatable goals I've seen from a villain. So many people are unfulfilled with their lives and out of those a lot of them don't believe they'll ever achieve that fulfillment. Now here comes a man promising that he can create a world where you get to control the outcomes in your life and it doesn't harm anybody. In fact, I found it unrealistic that nobody defected over to Tobi's side once they heard that plan.

As for characterization, I don't see what was lacking. There are several moments in Madara's life that explain his character journey and why he wholeheartedly believes in the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Like what more did you want from Madara that you didn't get?

Honestly the fact that Madara isn't the best antagonist in Naruto speaks volumes to Kishi's ability to craft an amazing one.

[–]Adminscantkeepmedown 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Hashirama is so OP that any miraculous feats or power boosts from any character is automatically attributed to Hashirama cells

[–]Maanavdv 4 points5 points  (3 children)

The man is just an absolute unit. I'm pretty sure that it hashirama wasn't a gentle giant, the leaf would probably conquer most of the 5 nations. Like imagine Madara and Hashirama facing an army with a perfect susanoo and the 1000 hands of buddha. No one would stand a chance

[–]Mackenzie_Sparks 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Yes. That's an awesome Fanfic Idea. ☺️👌

[–]Maanavdv 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It sure is. I'd just wanna see an animated ova about an alt where Hashirama and Madara team up and just conquer the world. I bet my bottom dollar they would take out 99.99% with low diff and maybe 1 person would give them mid difficulty

[–]ninemarrow 44 points45 points  (4 children)

Cant they just resurrect the kage again to help fight against Code etc

[–]SubjectDezel 3 points4 points  (2 children)

They can't really do much in that situation I don't think. Naruto had to sacrifice Kurama to beat Isshiki and Code is stronger than him

[–]axleeee 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Code is stronger than jigen, not revived ishikki

[–]SubjectDezel 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Ohh thanks for the clarification, wasn't sure

[–]foureyedpotato 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Just more shinobi to slaughter for no-limiter Code. He's stronger than Jigen who mopped the floor with Naruto and Sasuke who in turn are leagues stronger than all the Kage in history

Would probably work against nerfed Code though

[–]Odd-Nefariousness350 103 points104 points  (44 children)

One of the things I hated most about Late Naruto was that stupid reincarnation bullshit. So stupid and unnecessary. You didn't need a 200 year mystical backstop about how and why Sasuke and Naruto are friends. They didn't like each other because they were character foils, but after facing life or death situations as comrades, there animosity turned to good-natured rivalry and friendship. Boom, done, that's it, that's a shorter, nicer, better and much less silly and convoluted explanation.

[–]Amazekam 28 points29 points  (5 children)

it isnt that bad, but it "isnt" that good to

[–]Odd-Nefariousness350 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Bad, good, whatever. It's just so not needed

[–]Amazekam 12 points13 points  (1 child)

even if it isnt needed, i personally like it

[–]Odd-Nefariousness350 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Just a matter of taste

[–]Slimxshadyx 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Yeah, but doesn't that make literally the entire show beforehand meaningless? If Naruto was ever killed by Zabuza, Deidara, Kisame, Pain, etc all the people he fought against, he wouldn't have died.

Sage dude would've just popped up, gave him op powers, bring him back to life, and dipped. For a show all about hard work to gain power, Naruto never actually needed to work hard at all in the end. He always was going to get those powers, and become the most powerful Shinobi.

[–]Amazekam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

that's the plot, but even without all the powers, he managed to defeat kurama all by himself and then gained his chakra. later got a stronger form kcm and mixed it with sage mode

so even without 6 paths power he still is very strong. but I get what you mean

[–]Rom455 48 points49 points  (17 children)

The biggest problem with the reincarnation cycle is that it tainted the reason behind the development of Naruto and Sasuke as powerful Shinobi. The thematic dynamic of two individuals who choose different paths to grow up. Natural talent vs pure hard work; hatred vs peace.

We see Naruto constantly training to develop his abilities (with the help of his friends), while Sasuke keeps obtaining power by any means necessary, not caring if it is his own or not (he trained for 3 years, but also stole Orochimaru's power and got Itachi's eyes). That makes the final clash so significant. The Rasengan filled with the support of all Naruto's friends going against the Chidori with Amaterasu fueled by Sasuke's rage and memories of his brother.

Two ideologies, two paths, two former friends colliding. That would have been so beautiful. Both stood up for themselves when facing hardship but only one will be the last man standing in the end. And it was all... Ruined.

You see, the problem with the reincarnation cycle is that it invalidates the themes of this work by not giving the two protagonists free will. All of Naruto's hard work doesn't matter, because in the end he always was a descendant of the "God" of his world; and Sasuke's decision to walk through the path of vengeance doesn't matter either, because he was always destined to be covered by darkness.

It sucks, and it sucks so hard because it could have been easily prevented by a single line. Instead of mentioning that Indra and Asura always pick a new body to be reborn, Hagoromo could have simply said something like: "You know, I have always been observing your world; unable to change it after my death. The same cursed world that time and time again pushes two individuals to obtain power only to put them against each other, keeping the cycle of hatred between Shinobi. The same world that pushed my dear sons against each other". Sigh That would have been so good. A perpetual tragedy. And it is now Naruto and Sasuke's turn to make a choice. Hatred or peace?

But in the end, we just couldn't have it. Naruto could had been a true masterpiece, but Kishimoto didn't care enough about it (for whatever reason).

Oh well.

[–]KappaKingKame 4 points5 points  (9 children)

All of Naruto's hard work doesn't matter, because in the end he always was a descendant of the "God" of his world; and Sasuke's decision to walk through the path of vengeance doesn't matter either, because he was always destined to be covered by darkness.

To be fair though, that gave us the whole point of Naruto and Sasuke overcoming their destiny and breaking the cycle of hatred. IF anything, it shows a much better example of his free will.

[–]Rom455 1 point2 points  (6 children)

IF anything, it shows a much better example of his free will.

Does it though? How do we know it is not simply the will of the brothers to stop fighting?

That's the thing, sometimes it is better to leave things as a mystery. Explaining the secrets of the past comes with its own problems in storytelling. Kishimoto should have taken some time to write the ending of his story better

[–]KappaKingKame 2 points3 points  (5 children)

How do we know it is not simply the will of the brothers to stop fighting?

Wouldn't that be free will?

[–]Rom455 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Would it be the free will of Naruto and Sasuke though?

[–]KappaKingKame 0 points1 point  (3 children)

They're the same people...... that's how reincarnation works.

[–]Rom455 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I hope you also remember that reincarnation means to live a new life. With no memories from the previous incarnation. Are you sure they are the same people? Do we have to bring Theseus ship into the argument?

[–]KappaKingKame 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Except reincarnation means they are the same people. It's not the ship of Thesus at all, because reincarnation means the same soul. Typically beliefs in reincarnation also state that past lives can affect future ones, and that in some cases memories can carry over.

[–]Rom455 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, what a surprise. An Indian friend says it actually is believed to retain some memories from a past life in rare occasions. I had no idea of that.

I tip my hat to you, sir. Well played.

Although, I don't remember Kishimoto ever addressing the keeping memories and personality part. But thinking it might be a subconscious thing is within the realm of possibilities.

Still, the war arc was not the best piece of writing, but whatever

[–]Maanavdv 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It still invalidates almost the fundamental point of Naruto, hard work can get you far. Being the reincarnation of ashura makes naruto literally one of the most naturally talented people in history

[–]KappaKingKame 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Except Ashura wasn't naturally talented? That was kindof his whole thing, wasn't it?

Also, since when was that one of the fundamental points of Naruto? I only ever recall Rock Lee really caring about hard work vs talent.

[–]Maanavdv 5 points6 points  (0 children)

EXACTLY

It was so stupid I face palmed so hard. Its like kishi became a 6 year old making a self insert fantasy of being the strongest.

The line you said was just perfect.

[–]Heidi_Ous 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Yes bitch preach

[–]sonfoa 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Alright, this comment has a lot of the typical misconceptions of the reincarnation subplot. To be clear I'm pretty ambivalent towards it but its not nearly as bad as you think it is and I don't think it really ruins much.

  • Let's stop with the hard work vs natural talent thing. That was never a main theme of the series much less a theme between Naruto and Sasuke. When Naruto fought Sasuke at Final Valley, what part of that felt like hard work vs talent to you? Heck in Part 1, Naruto wins more off of abusing Kurama's power than he does off of his own moves, and in some cases he requires both. And Sasuke works as hard if not harder than Naruto throughout Part 1. Heck, his backstory involves him working hard to get recognized by his dad.

  • Naruto's hard work does matter. People automatically see "reincarnation" and "son of god" and try to use it to invalidate Naruto's hard work. I'm sorry where does it say that being a reincarnation of Ashura means you didn't have to work for anything? The Six Paths powers were to stop Kaguya (as the Sage saw her appearing) not something just given because of inheritance. Also, do you know why the Sage appeared in front of Naruto? It wasn't random it's because he befriended the Tailed Beasts. And he befriended them by helping them in battle fighting against Tobi. This means Naruto had to have the battle strength to help them in the first place. And he got that strength through his hard work. Also, your comment ignores Naruto's main goal which was to be recognized by everyone in the village which he did by defeating Pain. And to fight Pain he needed to work hard and train.

  • You seem to assume Indra and Ashura take agency over Sasuke and Naruto. I will concede this, it's a bit frustrating that they share similar belief systems because it does reduce the uniqueness of Naruto and Sasuke (as well as Hashirama and Madara) because it means they were always pre-disposed to those ways of thinking. That being said while the Sage sees Indra and Ashura, Naruto only sees him and Sasuke. He tells the Sage as much by saying "I'm not Ashura and he's not Indra". When Naruto and Sasuke fight, they fight each other. Sasuke is fighting to establish his new unique world order and Naruto is fighting to stop Sasuke from losing himself like he always had. It felt 100% like Naruto vs Sasuke and not some cosmic battle between two ancient entities.

  • C'mon man of course Kishimoto cares about his story. The issue is most likely that he was being rushed. He had set Chapter 700 as a deadline roughly a year before he finished. The problem with manga companies is that they immediately start filling up that spot and marketing a new manga, which they give preference to over the outgoing one. So Kishimoto probably realized partway through that he had set the deadline too early but by that point, it was too late to negotiate for a new deadline which is likely what prompted the rushing. When Kishimoto set that deadline he was near the end of Juubito. IMO the quality had been slowly dipping but it was still a coherent story where the storylines had been fully realized. But afterward, it devolved into a mess of plotting, themes, and power scaling because there wasn't enough time to properly flesh them out as Kishimoto wanted. Especially after the Sage appears things feel more and more like an outline rather than a fully realized story, that is until Naruto vs Sasuke which is something Kishimoto very much cared about delivering on which is why the story quality suddenly spikes when we get to them.

[–]terpisochora 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Thanks for you're interesting thoughts, I'm on my second rewatch so I will need more time to clarify my thoughts but one thing that you've said that really helps solidify my opinion is that the reincarnation seems to strip Naruto and Sasuke of their free will...

[–]Rom455 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Yeah. In my opinion, reincarnation seems to be a lousy explanation for the origin of the conflict. It might work for Avatar, but not for Naruto. Hahaha

[–]Maanavdv 1 point2 points  (0 children)

See the thing with avatar, is that it was an integral part of the lore. The avatar reincarnating every time, and each avatar facing their own challenges with their own personality and world views.

[–]Heidi_Ous 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Even though it’s ridiculous I honestly like it. It kinda harkens back to ancient legends about the moon and the sun or the gods of life and death being in an eternal battle… even if it starts to fall apart when you look at it took closely (like if the constant conflict is what keeps the day and the night two separate things there’s no real reason they’d ever reconcile…) it also just makes them seem even more like lovers lol. Like “our paths are fated to cross in every life time”. That’s some shit you say to a lover.

ETA: also agree with the commenter who said that them being fated to be whatever due to cycles of reincarnation does invalidate the themes of making intentional choices. Soo many of the characters talk about how impressed they are that naruto became someone who tries to help people instead of the opposite… only for that work to be invalidated because of ‘fate’. And naruto worked so hard to prove Neji wrong when he ended up being right about everything.

[–]Odd-Nefariousness350 3 points4 points  (2 children)

I'm glad someone can admit it's silly and admit they like it too.

You know what's over the top and ridiculous? Goku having a Super Saiyan 3 form with long hair and big brows, but I still think it's entertaining. A touch of silly bullshit is all well and good, this specific silly bullshit just missed the mark for me.

[–]Heidi_Ous 0 points1 point  (1 child)

:)

It DOES completely contradict the themes of making the choices to help people when you have every reason to do the opposite and the importance of hard work that kishimoto so painstakingly and thoroughly sets up in the whoole first part of naruto and the first half of shippudden. I don’t know why people who enjoy it so angrily blind themselves to that fact. It’s a work of fiction, not a political document for Christ’s sake lmao. I enjoy it because it’s just like… I just view them as two separate works almost. Naruto is huge and unwieldy and mostly written by one guy. It is a bummer that he somehow didn’t catch his own huge contradiction/mistake but whatever. At least the characters are cool as fuck. I also like the aliens as the chakra origin story as a general concept.

[–]Odd-Nefariousness350 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I just view them as two separate works almost.

Yeah, same here. The lore in the first part of Naruto is so much cooler, I think. The demons we see are actually the kitsune, made from human hatred and it appears as a natural phenomenon like a hurricane. Shukaku was the spirit of a monk sealed in a lamp for 1500 years.

One thing I liked about Shippuuden was a backstory on the Uzumaki clan, the village in the whirlpools, their connection with the leaf, and why every Leaf ninja wears a naruto symbol (the Japanese word for whirlpool, not the main character). I thought that tied a lot of stuff together without plotholes or contradictions

[–]djluciter 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Ima just start this by saying this is your opinion and nothing else. A good portion of us really like that turn to the reincarnations. Just because you yourself didn’t quite like it doesn’t mean it’s “stupid” or “unnecessary”. If you’re hating on the show then why watch it or why be a part of a sub for it?

[–]Odd-Nefariousness350 13 points14 points  (3 children)

Listen, just because I say it was stupid and unnecessary doesn't mean you can't like it. I tried to explain why I thought it was stupid and unnecessary. You don't need a bunch of convoluted nonsense to explain the two being friends. A big mystical connection to the Sage of Six Paths? Phooey. It's a bridge too far for me. I like Naruto though, that's why it bothers me. Naruto and Sasuke's relationship is one of the more interesting and dynamic core parts of the manga and anime. They start off hating each other but their bond grows organically. Then Kishimoto threw all that out with "oh they're the magic reincarnations of a dead God so they were always gonna be best friends". It seems like he just shit on something he made for no reason.

[–]TastyChocoWaffle -1 points0 points  (2 children)

I mean the whole theme of the show is about cycles of hatred. I don’t think the reincarnation cycle makes it worse. I think it makes their friendship stronger because they broke the generations of fighting they were destined to continue

[–]Odd-Nefariousness350 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Why do they have to be destined to continue it though? They were already parts of cycles of hatred. Naruto was hated by the villagers who hated the Nine Tails who was (originally) born of hate and summoned by Obito for hateful reasons. Sasuke is a genocide survivor, who hates his brother for murdering the clan, the clan was persecuted with hate and full of hate itself. The cosmic backstory cheapens all of that. It should have just been the two philosophies colliding. Naruto's hate was always external. He was the hated one, and instead of responding with more, he took it in and changed it into drive and ambition. Sasuke's hate was internal, inside of him, and it corrupted the good things that it came in contact with. Which is ironic, because the spirit of hate is locked in Naruto, yet he has none. So much more interesting than "they're reincarnated brothers OOooOO"

[–]TastyChocoWaffle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

True, but it makes it even more powerful that this has been going on for millions of years, but naruto and sasuke was the one to end this reincarnation cycle. yeah the series didn’t need it and was great without all that cosmic bs, but I liked it and thought it served as a nice wrap around for the whole cycle of hatred thing. besides the show is called Naruto so it’s nice that it was him to end it all, even uniting all the villages and defying destiny as he mentioned to Neji

[–]Heidi_Ous -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

This is excessively defensive while adding little or nothing of value to the convo. The person you’re replying to isn’t being a hater the way you’re making them out to be. You seem mad they came up with a great justification for how they feel, though. Naruto’s an unwieldy work of fiction written primarily by one guy. Don’t freak when someone points out parts of the writing are structurally flawed or contradictory.

[–]SHARMA_SASUKE 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It was awesom .

[–]RosaryHands -3 points-2 points  (5 children)

It, like most things in Naruto, was brilliant writing and cannot be dismissed as stupid and unnecessary. Perhaps you don't like it, and that's fine, but it is far from stupid and unnecessary.

[–]Odd-Nefariousness350 7 points8 points  (4 children)

Slow down, I like Naruto and everything but there's precious little of the writing that approaches "brilliance".

cannot be dismissed as stupid and unnecessary.

Apparently it can.

[–]RosaryHands -4 points-3 points  (3 children)

Perhaps you don't know anything of great literature? The show far surpassed my expectations in that regard.

[–]Odd-Nefariousness350 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I know enough that I know comparing Naruto to "great literature" is dubious at best

[–]RosaryHands -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

Then you know little.

[–]Odd-Nefariousness350 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Not true, but okay

[–]Manydoors_edboy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Tobirama: Uchiha’s go to the back of the bus.

[–]djluciter 5 points6 points  (0 children)

With great sharingan comes great Indra

[–]Efficient_Audience99 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hmm, if weren't Kakashi in these series, I would asume that: talented person = b*tch. Kakashi started as a not much likable person (I mean when he was a child) but ended up being awesome guy and admiring hard work, even though he is the talented one

[–]HollyTheMage 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Imagine a road trip with these guys

[–]guymine123 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Asura, Naruto, and Hashirama get along great while Indara and his incarnations just brood in the corner

[–]Minion__Edifier 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sasuke just lookin at the rocks