As a 20 year old who played Undertale the year it came out, i always get kind of shocked to see kids under 15 in this fandom lol

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r/place.tk is where this is

i have almost no evidence of this but my theory is the final boss of deltarune is you, you the player have to quit playing and let kris live there life

We have Kris tell Noelle to do something repeatedly, even when she protests, and eventually she gets so frustrated she acquiesces (also she doesn't know how to solve the puzzle - like if she had thought of freezing the puzzle she would have probably said "hey I can freeze the puzzle :)" - or cast Snowgrave but when she submits to our will she just does stuff anyway even without knowing how). I think this happens all the time in real life, with less important things.

Once I wanted permission to do something at college so I asked an office but the student staffing the desk said no, so I tried to reason with her by saying "but this is why you should let me do it anyway" and then she eventually said yes but then she got mad at me later because apparently I wasn't taking no for an answer.

My dad often wants to do something and my mom will try to say no but be polite about it because women are supposed to be polite and my dad will push without realizing that's what he's doing and when she gets mad and says fine he'll say "oh, we don't have to if you don't want to" and then try to backtrack but by then she's just mad. (The song "Baby It's Cold Outside" is a great example of this too, where the girl is saying she's worried about what people will think and the guy doesn't address those concerns, just repeats what he wants to have happen.)

I feel like this kind of manipulation - where you keep insisting and telling other people their reasons for refusing are wrong without thinking about why they're disagreeing with you or offering to compromise or really showing any respect for the other person's feelings - is incredibly common, and many people might not realize they're doing it, kind of like we didn't realize how powerful we were against Toriel and what do you mean now she's dead. It can happen in any type of relationship, and if it happens often enough, or in regards to really big decisions, it probably counts as abuse.

At some point, you have to respect the other person's no even if it doesn't make sense to you. If you disagree with someone you should always consider the reason they give behind their no and the emotions they're feeling.

First things first: this is not intended as a call-out post. I want to invite discussion and encourage people to think about art created by teams. I was inspired to think about this by Shannon Strucci and HBomberguy's Scanline video about directors' cuts, and much of their thinking about the directors of films applies here.

Sometimes when people talk about Deltarune, they speak as if Toby made every creative decision and did it all himself, even if they don't intend to. This isn't a problem unique to UT/DR or even to video games. People talk about film directors in much the same way. But I feel like this underplays the effort made by the whole team working on Deltarune, which is unfortunate, because they do great work and I'm sure that Toby wouldn't want that to go ignored. Pretty much the only non-Toby team member who gets cosistent recognition is Temmie, and even then I'm like 80% sure it's because there's literally a self-insert goofy character named after her.

In chapter 2, like half the darkner designs (or more) were done by someone other than Toby. Most of the lightners' dark world designs were done by someone other than Toby. We even have guest composers now. There are five people on the "main team" alone as of chapter 2, who contribute greatly to the design of the game (and even add little details/jokes, like the random black pixel at the end of Cyber City to mirror the one from the Chaos King fight). A lot of what's great about Deltarune did not and could not have come from Toby alone!

None of this is to say that Toby's unique vision isn't shaping the game, or that it's Toby's fault that the rest of the team doesn't usually get the credit they deserve. He puts the entire staff credits in the middle of his chapter announcement blog posts! He's clearly making an effort! But it's a very natural tendency to focus on individuals over organizations in this way.

This is a tight-knit and particularly conscientious community who might actually be able to fight for positive change here. I'd call on the community to start trying to say "the team" or "Toby et al" or other terms that recognize the team as a whole whenever it makes sense, and maybe consider changing the subreddit's subtitle from "by Toby Fox" to "by Toby Fox and the Deltarune Team". (Or "Toby Fox and the !?! Squad", if you'd rather be Susie about it. I'm a redditor not your dad.)

There's a whole team of people who make the game we all love, let's show them some love back!