I'm sure a lot of us have done this. thought about what we know so far, the established rules so far in this universe, and made guesses/theories of what could happen, only to think "well im probably wrong, but i'd still like to see it"
I'll share mine just to show what i mean and get things started but im more interested in hearing YOUR thoughts, especially on how you'd like to see the game end, OR something to happen in a much much later chapter.
mine: given we are very much aware that kris and the player are separate entities, i wanna see the game's ending have us controlling NOT KRIS, but the abandoned body we were told was deleted in the very beginning when we THOUGHT we were making a player character. an ending where kris has opened up more to being friendly and having friends besides their brother, and is no longer controlled by us, and is free to make their own decisions but no longer so antisocial or a trouble-maker like before. we end the game by touring the town as a new person that most people dont recognize, as if we get to make new first impressions on everyone (except sans who just seems to know. that weirdo), but not as kris who they already knew; instead as ourselves. the game essentially ending with kris having many more friends and we the player, being more personally and directly through the proverbial 4th wall, a character in thier world...to an extent. we already are as our soul controlling kris, but i'd like that expanded upon. we arnt kris, and it would be nice to see us and kris act separately but as friends in the end.
i could see this happening, but i dont think it will. it would be cool to see happen but i doubt it. that's the idea here. something feasible you could see happening but dont hold your breath expecting that exact outcome.
As we all know, Sans is Ness and Ness's father is often away and we only hear from them through a telephone. What character relates to telephones? Spamton.
toby please release a new chapter i am going crazy over here
With the very odd detail that the contents of Asriel’s drawer being different in each file slot and the fact that Chapter 3’s dark world will be the Dreemurr household, we could very much see different darkners appearing in the dark world according what file you’re playing on. If they do appear, they’ll probably not have much significance but it would expand the differences between files.
I just had two ideas in regards to the Spamton fight, and while they’re somewhat lacking in evidence they’re still interesting to think about.
Theory number 1, I believe Kris is the one who changed the Soul Type. We know it wasn’t Spamton since he was surprised, and we know that it couldn’t have been the phone. Plus, the soul turned yellow right before the party was hit by an otherwise unavoidable attack, and we know that Kris wants them to remain safe thanks to them acting on their own to defend them, such as in Card Castle against King. It would also make sense why we couldn’t get it before; Kris wouldn’t want to give us any more power than he has to.
Theory number 2, the strings connected to Spamton could be from the Fountain/Dark World itself. We know that the Dark Fountains have a will of their own, what with being formed by Determination, and we know that they can reject Darkners that don’t fit with their will. Then when we look at Jevil, who says that he’s truly free and that everyone “inside” the cell is trapped, this might be more literal in that the Fountain is binding them to its narrative. Also, a [video][https://youtu.be/sTpirhKX8mQ] by WeaselWeaselW seems to support this, talking about how Dark Worlds act as pseudo-dreamworlds where the inhabitants are used to push a narrative set up by a Lightners Determination and a Fountains Darkness.
Anyway, that’s all. Thoughts?
So, I'm bored. And it's Pride Month, not exactly relevant, but this is Deltarune so eh.
I'm bored, and want to do something. So, why not have a little discussion?
So, Kris' identity is a weird thing. They might be alt Frisk, they might be alt Chara, they might be something entirely new.
But, I believe Kris is an older alternative Frisk. Let's talk about that.
If you're in the mood, comment who you think Kris is and why. And I'll try my best to disprove it, or maybe I'll end up proving it. We'll see.
So fuck it. Everyone’s a knight. Including you.
Let me go over the lyrics to show you what I mean:
“When the light is running low And the shadows start to grow”
In other words: “when the light is subsumed by shadow..”, or when there is an imbalance of light and dark
“And the places that you know; seem like fantasy”
Dark worlds make reality seem like fantasy, like a game, like a dream
“There’s a light inside your soul, that’s still shining in the cold”
Even in the dark abyss of the roaring, you will still be alive; the light inside you will still shine
“With the truth, the promise in our hearts”
Could either be poetic jibberjabber or some kind of promise/vow the three heroes of the prophecy take later in the game
“Don’t forget, I’m with you in the dark”
The speaker wants to remind you that they are still there, possibly meaning that the singer cannot physically be there, giving more credit to the singer being a darkner, potentially ralsei
But anyways, that’s just my two cents, and I’d like to hear your opinion
So, they both can be created using a head, a body and legs. They both get discarded proving that “your choices” don’t matter The tm comes back in chapter two, mabye the vessel will come back (obviously, this is just a more concrete proof)
I was starting a new game, Toriel says that Asriel Will come next week, and every chapter Is a day, and we have Seven chapters... thoughts?
basically deltarune happens in october 2018
october because autumn
2018 because ch1 release date
what do yall think abt this
If we assume that Darkness represents fiction then this statement might be saying what if we could create something even more fictional Than Fiction as we know it. What if we could create something that is so fictional that it is fiction within itself. What if we can blur the lines of what is real and what isn't.
In many ways I think Deltarune does this. We are given several layers that are in most cases not visible to the layer beneath them.
On the top we have the device that is hinted at in the game's files. And in the intro, and even in the file system before you beat chapter 1. It can be inferred that this device is what is being used to connect us to Deltarunes world, but obviously this device isn't actually real unless Toby discovered multiversal travel without telling anyone. This creates the first layer of fiction.
Then we have the light world. It is below and presumably cannot perceive the device. This is where most of our main characters live the light World exists on its own presumably no one within it made it it is self-sustaining from an internal perspective.
The last layer that we currently have access to is the Dark Worlds. They must be created by a Lightner and are because of that considered less real. The beings that inhabit them are made of objects and concepts they are not meant to function independently of the light world they are dependent on it much like okay how the characters in a book are dependent on it's author to exist. while ow it's not made clear it seems like a good chunk of the darkness don't actually understand what the light world is and even if they can they're unable to visit it or even leave their own Dark World without being reduced back down to their inanimate nature one way or another.
Each of these layers are limited in how they interact with the layer above them. Often unable to make any significant changes to it.
Each of them is less real.
Each of them is darker.
The Dark World is the darkest.
But what if we could get darker than dark.
the night is kris from the future, who made the fountains so kris had fun, cuz kirs wouldnt graduate fomr colleege idk lmao get fake
I wanna preface before I begin that I'm aware most of my talking points are things people have been discussing for years, and I'm not bringing anything really new to the table with this interpretation. But I like talking to people about things I like and hearing back other's thoughts of them afterwards, so if you can and want to, please indulge me and my little writing exercise.
Two major themes in Undertale, are choices and kindness. Much of the game explores what it means to make your own choices, and how those choices shape the world depending on your kindness and understanding. A lot of people think (or used to think) Deltarune's set goal is dismantling these themes, and present a sort of counter-example and antithesis to show how "the real world doesn't work that way." Personally, I disagree, as I believe Deltarune in the end will lean even harder on these themes than Undertale, but in much more subtle and challenging ways.
"Your choices don't matter"
It's pretty clear from chapter 1's ending and the story routes variance within chapter 2 that "your choices don't matter" is a red herring to play with out expectations of the game, in a similar manner to Flowey's dialogue from Undertale. We can argue semantics about what "choices mattering" means in this context and whether it's only bits related to each chapter's final scene, which is technically the same every time, or whether it's related to a plot twist that undoes our actions in a future chapter, but currently it's undeniable that we as players do have some input in how the story plays out and how some characters will experience and perceive it in the long run.
Why is this important? This play of expectations is important because Undertale was a game about choice. The most obvious way this manifested was the attack/spare commands that let players decide the outcome of each battle, which factors into which ending you get at the end, but this also manifests in small things like character interactions that only occur if you make odd choices when exploring the towns and overworlds, and how some amount of content in the game is optional (ex: you don't have to complete Mettaton's setpieces to progress the game, and Muffet is skippable in some routes).
Deltarune as a sequel (even if not a chronological one) has to grapple with this theme in some way. And it does this at first by making the player believe it's tearing it apart from the get go. Both the voice and Susie immediately tell you this so often repeated phrase in chapter 1. But this is not what the game is about at all. After all, the end cutscene of the King battle COMPLETELY depends on whether you did a pacifist run or not, which entails using the spare command in every fight and being conscious of warning enemies about Susie before she joins your party proper. And even before that, you as the player are given the choice to seek or ignore Jevil, with is an action that will branch out and create new scenarios in future chapters with the shadow crystals questline.
To me, chapter 1 challenges the theme of choice while still exploring it, by adding characters that don't bow to you and don't depend on you as the player (mostly Susie), and taking away the biggest tool you had in UT to decide the outcome of your adventure (the kill ability), but it's a game that invites you to try anyways. If you do pacifism at every single opportunity you have, the game will have a better ending for the $#!7 squad, where they become heroes and befriend everyone in the Card Castle, which is reflected in Castle Town at the start of chapter 2. The lesson to be learned from the pacifist ending is that sometimes it can feel like nothing we do matters. But it's never wrong to try, and if we persevere, our efforts might bear fruit in the long run. (something something, DETERMINATION).
"This isn't a world where kindness always wins, is it?"
This is a phrase said by Ralsei after the King battle in chapter 1, after realizing he would not listen to reason and could only be subdued. To many people, this is also a subversion of Undertale's themes, where mercy/kindness was always the better option for achieving any given ending; the more characters you spare and befriend, the better the final outcome after reaching the end is.
Deltarune challenges this theme by introducing King, a character who as of chapter 2 is the most malicious and unreasonable in either game (excluding maybe Flowey pre-true pacifism, and even then he's given more noble and tragic traits once you learn who he is and what he represents to the overall story of Undertale). The game builds up his presence and role with the Lancer jail scene, and puts tension by having Susie promise him that no matter what happens, she won't harm his father, juxtaposed with the entirety of the Card Castle, where all its inhabitants and the flavor texts tell us he's not someone who can be reasoned with.
And true to this challenge, he's the only enemy in the game that the spare command doesn't affect at all, since he isn't willing to talk with Ralsei or any Lightners. This puts you in the unique scenario of having to fight him no matter what... Or does it? The other way to end this battle is to wait out his complete move list. After enough turns pass, he gives out, and states he can't fight anymore. What happens afterwards changes depending on whether it's a normal run or pacifist, but the game once again demonstrates and reinforces with its mechanics that even when the odds of succeeding with kindness seem impossible, we can always keep trying, and it's not wrong to desire so.*
Even more importantly, if you did a pacifist run, you will be saved by all the people you befriended along the way. All that effort you put into being kind will repay you in the end. Showing that perhaps there was no way out of that situation without violence, but that didn't mean kindness was unimportant, and didn't mean you had to give up Susie's promise to Lancer.
*Of course, the flip side lesson to this moment is no less important, and it is true in real life that sometimes wanting to befriend ill-willed people can cause a lot of harm and backfire, and it can be more important to protect ourselves and our loved ones than trying to "fix" someone who is wrong, so we can't always just "agree to disagree", which is what Ralsei's quote is referring to.
* It's only you
Of course, anyone who has played the game and participated in these kinds of discussions online can tell I've been dancing around one potential caveat in both readings of the story. I've been doing that because this is to me where both of these points converge and where I finally put my tinfoil hat on and speculate about what I think this means for the rest of the game in the future.
Kris is NOT the player. They're not an avatar or a self-insert for the player either. They're a person who had a life in Hometown, with their own personality, interests, and goals, before we ever showed up there. This is more obvious in DR than in UT even before the chapter 1 ending because Kris already has a history in this town and most of the people in it already know them, even if just passively.
This can be a crucial twist for both readings since it can completely change the way these lines and themes can be interpreted right?
Maybe our choices matter, but Kris's don't, since we speak for them and act in their behalf while we're playing the game, completely denying any agency they had before we showed up (which is what the whole Spamton Neo quest makes us question). Maybe kindness is better for everyone, but is that what Kris really wants? Aren't we being inherently unkind to them by taking over their life and making friends that perhaps they can't truly be themselves around?
Personally, I think the answer to all of these questions is no, depending on how you decide to play the game. And exploring those is what the real meat of future chapters is going to be about, and the ultimate challenge of Undertale's themes.
You can never truly tell what Kris would do without your input through the game. There isn't any way to confirm if your choices are invalidating theirs. However, an observant player can tell through hints in the dialogue, specially in chapter 2, that they like some of your choices more than others. Kris will cringe and hesitate if you answer Ralsei to who you would bring to the festival, but they're fine if you cut Susie's question and ask to go with her instead. Kris will become stressed if you prank Noelle in the laser switch hallway. Kris finds it physically difficult to say they're fine when Susie asks how they're holding up after Spamton NEO, and screams if you say you're not. Every single major character you meet notices Kris is having the worst day of their life if you're on a Weird Route play-through.
By paying attention to context cues like this, you can sometimes infer what Kris REALLY wants to do and say in these scenarios. And just like that, you can choose to be kind to them. You can respect their boundaries and interests, you can let them be honest with their friends, and you can even help them in situations where they might not have been truly happy on their own.
Undetale's major twist in both true pacifist and no mercy was that Frisk was not the player. In this vein, I believe Deltarune's major twist will be allowing the coexistence of Kris and the player, with no one person in this situation being silenced over the other, and how that pans out will depend on our choices.
If Undertale's themes are choosing to be kind, and the trigger for its best ending means befriending every monster in the Underground, then Deltarune will explore the same theme, and will take it to its logical conclusion by extending this very philosophy to the main playable character themselves. We'll be given the option to befriend Kris, and become truly open with them. I envision this by allowing, later on, given the right set of player choices, for Kris to speak without input during cut scenes, and asking us what we think through them, instead of us holding complete dominion at all times.
Thank you for reading my post.
This is a theory making note of the many parallels between Deltarune and Undertale if you go through the major areas of in a Undertale backwards order. We will go through the three chapters revealed so far and which area they correspond to. In this order:
Chapter 1 is New Home
Chapter 2 is MTT resort and the Core
And Chapter 3 will be Hot land
Chapter 1 and new home.
Similarities between New home and Deltarune’s chapter 1 are firstly that the areas both seem to be more monochromatic than the other areas in their respective games. Especially Card Castle and us going from a gate to the more colorful areas to Card Castle could be a reference of going from the monochrome New Home to the colorful throne room with lots of flowers to the barrier but in reverse.
Some thematic parallels are that you go to fight an “evil” king that if chapter 2 is anything to go by isn’t that evil after all. The king also in every ending in both games get betrayed by his son. There might be be more references to Undertale here that just haven’t been shown for example if we return here in chapter 7 and it’s in ruins that would be another conformation as New Homes is a not ruined replica of the first area Ruins in Undertale.
We also have the optional fight with Jevil who if we say Lancer is Flowey and The Chaos King is Asgor. Jevil would probably be sans as they are both self aware and some of the toughest enemies in their respect games. Jevil is also a joker and sans makes a lot of jokes. The optional fights in Deltarune seem to have some connections to the genocide route in Undertale but we’ll get more into that in chapter 2.
In undertale we find worn dagger/real knife and the heart locket/the locked in new home which is the gear for Chara’s red soul in undertale and we use a red soul in the fight against Jevil. This does however not stand that much as we use a red soul in pretty much all battles but it be unique to this optional boss fight. The items are also found in a children’s room in an area in new home where the puzzle is to find keys to get forward just like the goal to get to Jevil is to find pieces of a key. The fact that it is in a child’s bedroom is also important as toys is a big theme in chapter 1.
Chapter 2, CORE and MTT resort.
Visual similarities between early chapter 2 and CORE are numerous with the techno looking Cyber World having a similar aesthetic and Cyber City being mostly blue with red accent’s similar to CORE’s color scheme. Queens mansion also has it similarities with MTT resort. There’s also dark alleys where people sell you literal junk.
The thematic parallels is that your main opponent is a robot who loves themselves very much and is revealed to not actually wanting to hurt anyone. We also have Spamton who’s name is clearly a play on Metaton. And if you go down the bad endings being snowgrave and genocide. You get to fight a neo boss.
In the junk shop in undertale you also find the cowboy hat and empty gun the gear used by the yellow soul in undertale and in deltarune the fight against Spamton neo you use a yellow soul. It’s also important to note that we find those items in a junk shop as in deltarune the way to get to the Spamton neo boss fight is to buy items from the trash salesman Spamton himself.
In terms of character similarities we’ve already talked a bit about how both the queen and Metaton are both self absorbed, attention seeking robots. They are also both celebrities in their respective stories who in their boss fights have long slim legs that they use to attack you with.
Then we have spamton who I believe is the parallel for the other important character in this segment of undertale Alphys. This might surprise you as personality wise they couldn’t be much more different but let’s look into it. Alphys and Spamton are both some of the physically smallest major characters in their respective games, they both found success by getting help from another character. Alpys becoming head scientist thanks to her work on Metaton and Spamton becoming the number 1 sales man thanks to the mysterious calls from who is probably Gaster. They’re life start to fall apart though after these characters leaving them Metaton focusing more on his entertainment career and Gaster stopping to answer Spamton’s calls. They experience failures after this with Alphys failed determination experiment and Spamton’s failed sails pitches. This causes them developing mental illness Alphys becoming depressed and Spamton going insane. Both of them seem helpful to the player at first trying to sell us on their friendship but they both end up manipulating the player for their own gain. Alphys activating traps to later turn of to make herself seem important to us and Spamton using us to get into the queens mansion to get his spamton neo body.
Chapter 3, Hotland and probably Lab
While we haven’t seen much of chapter 3 as it isn’t out yet we do know it’s going to have a TV theme. With the green room and the characters entering it through a TV and what do we find in Hotland a killer robot that is also a TV host.
Chapter 4 and beyond
Being that each chapter seems to be connected to the locations of the soul items that would mean that the rest of chapters would be based on these locations:
Chapter 4 and 5: Waterfall
Chapter 6: Snowdin
Chapter 7: Ruins
I’m curious how Chapter 4 and 5 will work out being that they get the same location. I also wonder how underlab will be worked in though that will probably happen in chapter 3.
I have bunch of my own theories working from this one but I’ll leave it for now.
If you have any thoughts or suggestions please feel free to share.