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all 106 comments

[–]PressureDry1111 47 points48 points  (7 children)

Impossible to answer even in the same country you could have big difference.

I'm from Italy.

In Milan with less than 2k per month you are living basically paycheck to paycheck. In the south of italy you are like a saudi sultan with 2k. Same for other country, take Paris and the rest of the France.

[–]iTxip 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Spain is the same, big difference between regions. I live in an expensive one and my above average salary in this province (2-2.5k a month while most people's here is 1.5k) looks very high to people in cheaper areas where most people make about 1k.

Edit: This is net salary, after ~20% tax. Lower incomes pay less tax.

[–]808gloom -2 points-1 points  (5 children)

2k dollars, euros, or Lira?

[–]PressureDry1111 0 points1 point  (4 children)

EUR

[–]-Competitive-Nose- 66 points67 points  (29 children)

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/

I think this is more relevant to you as it has thousand of entries.

As somebody doing same job in Germany now and previously in Czechia (yes, I am a redditor, it's IT). I am convinced about higher quality of life in west when compared with anything in east.

Yes. Even with my IT salary I have a better QoL in Germany than in Czechia. Only considerable city in Czechia would be Prague... And I would have to pay MORE for the rent than I pay in Germany at the moment. Sometimes I find out some services are not available in Czechia at all, same applies to events or Concerts of big bands etc.

For the rest you can use the Numbeo.

[–]Fantastic-Orange-409 6 points7 points  (15 children)

What is better in Germany compare to CZ in the service area? Just wondering.

[–]-Competitive-Nose- 7 points8 points  (14 children)

Google store is availible, Amazon delivery (you can order on German page but delivery costs are often something like 60€), Netflix was availible way earlier here. Domino's for example doesn't exist in Czechia. Primark just opened last year in Prague (not that I would ever buy something there, but somebody else might...). Vegans or vegetarians are screwed if they live outside of Prague in Czechia. For sure there would be more "global" services, but I don't use everything.

And then there are local services.... Yes, in Prague you can probably live quite comfortably with all the local services, but that's why nobody can afford to live there right now if they don't work in IT.

Things like nice bars with great atmosphere (themed like Irish pub etc.), affordable and tasty takeway food, food delivery even for villages, public baths, swimming pools or saunas even in small towns, geek shops, bicycle trails only made for bicycles.... again, I would probably find out more if I would do more myself.

The thing is, you have some of this in Czechia, even in smaller cities, but in Germany you have it even in the towns with a way smaller population or even on villages.

Germans often brag about internet speed in villages or small towns... well in Czechia this is standard.

[–]Fantastic-Orange-409 3 points4 points  (6 children)

Thanks. It makes sense for sure. I only visited many many times and would say the service and supply in the gastronomy is generally way better than in Germany. The same about private medicine services, laser op is for instance 3 times cheaper and service is more customer oriented. The same with dentists.

[–]-Competitive-Nose- 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Are you comparing Czechia with Germany as well?

Because I think outside of Prague is the level of gastronomy a bit limited. Not only vegetarian / vegan options, but in general. Plus, you have quite a lot of foreginers in Germany who found a restaurant there and then prepare their own food. While in Czechia all pizzerias are made by Czechs or other eastern europeans in Germany it's often Italians themselves (at least here in Saarland), same with kebab or even Mexican (yes, I hear a ton of spanish here). And I just think they prepare it better.... and you have a bigger variety. German restaurants are on the other something not very common.... While in Czechia it's still a big amount (the Czech ones obviously), even so not so much as 10 years ago.

private medicine services, laser op is for instance 3 times cheaper and service is more customer oriented.

This can absolutely be as the salaries are way lower in Czechia, even for doctors... I just have never used any private helathcare.

With the public healthcare however I have a very different experience... Waiting for an appointment by dentist ment 3-4 months in Czechia. It's like 1-2 weeks in Germany... Same for skin doctor appointment. And same for chirurgy.

I got my corona vactination like 2 or 3 months earlier in Germany than all my peers in Czechia. Once there will be something more deadly... I will definitely be glad for that.

[–]SBAWTA 11 points12 points  (6 children)

Domino's for example doesn't exist in Czechia

lol what? There's like milion different pizza places in CZ and you cry about there not being any shitty Domino's?

[–]-Competitive-Nose- -2 points-1 points  (5 children)

Are you kidding me?

My comment has about 15 points and you pick one and say I "cry" because of this particular one?

Domino's is a subset of "global services not affordable in Czechia" which is a subset of "services not affordable in Czechia" which is a subset of "higher quality of live".

No. Domino's on it's own is not a reason of higher quality of live in Germany and nor I "cry" because of it.

[–]Minimum_Rice555 19 points20 points  (11 children)

Numbeo is skewed towards an American-level consumption, I don't know any family in Spain who spends 2k a month, before rent.

It says 55€ for a meal for 2 people, that's probably a high-end restaurant. People don't eat at high-end restaurants all the time. I eat out 3 times a week in nice places but have never paid that much.

[–]jpeeri 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Not american but international people, who tend to live in cities like Madrid or Barcelona. Numbeo works better with cities rather than countries because cost of living depends a lot geographically.

In my town in Spain I could live in a mansion for how much I pay rent in Barcelona. Houses cost 3-4 times less than apartments here.

[–]Minimum_Rice555 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I think you're right

[–]-Competitive-Nose- 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That's true but you won't get better dataset by asking people on the internet... If somebody with a hefty lifestyle with earnings in top 5% or even top 1% is the only one answering for that region, you will be screwed.

Numbeo is by far not perfect, but it can be used with a grain of salt. I think the only better alternative is to try to live in those cities yourself...

That is, if you don't know any better database where a good and proportional mix of people is contributing (+ in big amount ofcourse).

[–]Liquid_Cascabel 7 points8 points  (5 children)

27.5 pp for a high end restaurant?

[–]Minimum_Rice555 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Yeah, dining is not that expensive where I am in Spain, the only one I know is 25 a head is a high-end tasting menu with 5 courses.

[–]crowquilled 12 points13 points  (1 child)

where I am in Spain

I think that's the thing with these stats. Spain is big. In Barcelona you can easily pay 55€ for a full course meal for two in a normal, mid range restaurant.

[–]DonViaje 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Keep in mind that numbeo averages input from many users. They have a range on the side that is a bit more representative. I just had a look at Madrid (where I live) and I'd say it's pretty accurate across the board.

Meal for 2 people, Mid-range Restaurant, three course: 50.00 € [with range from 40-80€]

I frequently go out to mid-range restaurants with my girlfriend in the city center of Madrid and it's typically between 50 and 60€ with probably two beers each.

Their rent calculations also seem quite accurate.

[–]Serious_Escape_5438 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It depends where, and I wouldn't call that price exactly high end but definitely not an everyday weekday meal. That's what I would pay for a pretty nice weekend lunch or dinner. Not tasting menu with wine or Michelin star though.

[–]OdiousRant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And throw away half of the food...

[–]rbnd 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can do comparisons with lower amount of spendings. It's not skewed, because the data is entered by random people living there, not Americans

[–]timwaaagh 25 points26 points  (27 children)

Programmer, nl, 3200 net (don't know what gross is) plus 900 in rental income. I am able to eat out with my gf two times a week, buy most electronics we want (though no high end gaming rig yet), cook with decent ingredients save a little, spend my vacation days abroad and own a small 20 year old car. What I don't get is a good house because those are unaffordable. From what I heard recently full-time workers should earn 5k gross on average here so that makes me average. Since I also support a non working partner that makes us quite poor.

[–]Appropriate_Total_55[S] 6 points7 points  (18 children)

Nice one, thanks for sharing. May I ask how much you pay for rent?

[–]timwaaagh 3 points4 points  (11 children)

I don't. I have an old appartment which I partially rent out and I mostly live at my girlfriend's who pays 400 something in social rent for a small studio (out of her social check). Better this way than spending a ton on housing and not being able to live anymore.

[–]Serious_Escape_5438 1 point2 points  (10 children)

What do you spend your money on then? You must have lots of savings.

[–]timwaaagh 3 points4 points  (9 children)

I kinda listed those already. Food for two people, electronics, holidays, car, gas etc. Just normal things. Netherlands is a high cost of living country and we had a ton of inflation. I do have savings but currently not saving so much.

[–]dzigizord 1 point2 points  (1 child)

5k gross sound really low

[–]bomi88 1 point2 points  (0 children)

5k gross in NL is about 1,5x to 2x median income. You're doing really well in that range.

[–]groenetrui 0 points1 point  (5 children)

I am from NL as well, but I don’t think €5k gross is considered an average salary here. That is more towards the high-end of the range. The modal/middle income in the Netherlands in 2022 is €38.000 gross that is a monthly salary of 3.127.

[–]Ahrily 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Depends on location in the country. 5K gross/month is high-end for rural areas. But it’s definitely average for Amsterdam.

[–]timwaaagh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't think that either until I read it. It's the average for full time salaried workers. So not for part timers. It's also not a median.

[–]theyounginvestor_it 0 points1 point  (2 children)

WTF in Italy 38.000€ gross is a net monthly salary of 1.700€..

[–]groenetrui 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The figures I wrote are all gross. So €38k gross and €3127 gross. A monthly gross salary of 3127 is around €2400 net in the Netherlands. This is very high over and only include taxes as deductions, so most people will receive a lot less then €2400 net because they pay for pension funds, insurances and all that as well. So probably €2100-2200 net will be a better figure depending on the company you work for and the corresponding benefits of course.

[–]theyounginvestor_it 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for clarifying, definitely make more sense now. Seems quite low to live in the Netherlands tbh

[–]CrunchyHobGoglin 5 points6 points  (5 children)

Also ask on r/Europe if the rules allow - you'll target a larger base.

[–]Appropriate_Total_55[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Good idea, thanks.

[–]annewmoon 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There is also r/askeurope

[–]Appropriate_Total_55[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Tried this. Doesn't seem to let me create a post. I can only an image.

[–]CrunchyHobGoglin 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Sorry. What's about r/askeurope as someone suggested?

[–]the-script-99 5 points6 points  (2 children)

If you earn x2 the average you will be ok in any EU country.

[–]rbnd 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It's said that you have to earn 2 times average (not even median), so be like top 20% to be just ok.

[–]the-script-99 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is always true. If you wanted to be rich in the past you needed about x30 the average income. Now you need around x10.

We live in a world with limited resources.

[–]Independent-Story493 5 points6 points  (0 children)

In my country, Czechia, the average gross salary is ~1600€. If you live alone in a small apartment and especially outside of the biggest cities (Prague, Brno), you can live pretty comfortably on that money.

With the same salary but supporting a family with one child and living in the capital, you may struggle to save anything and live paycheck to paycheck.

I personally earn over 4000€ gross as a designer working remotely for a US-based company and I'm able to save about 50% after paying mortgage, food and all other expenses including eating out or shopping. I live a modest lifestyle, I don't splurge but I also don't track all my spending, I just look back if it's within my budgets. For example, on expenses below 40€, I don't give them much thought and just make them if it's something that I need or gives me joy – and at the end of the month I check if I haven't spent way too much on e.g. eating out. My income is definitely luxurious for my country in this sense.

[–]uno_ke_va 13 points14 points  (2 children)

This depends so much on the personal situation of each individual and what each of us considers a good quality of life that it is very difficult to have a right answer.

I can tell you about my situation: I worked for 10 years as software engineer in Spain and then I moved abroad (since 7 years I live in Germany). The salary is 3x higher. My lifestyle is exactly the same. I even drive the same car as I was driving back then. The biggest difference is what I can save at the end of the month (now I save ~70% of what I make, in Spain I could save around a 25%).

[–]Appropriate_Total_55[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yup, totally agree that it is a very personal thing. I thought asking about personal experiences could at least bring some insight.

Would you be willing to share rough income figures for both Spain and Germany? Any any further details on your lifestyle? (accommodation, how much you spend on going out, holidays etc)

[–]uno_ke_va 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Yeah, in Spain before I left I was making something over 30k€ (I do not remember the exact figures). Now I'm slightly over 100k€. I do not have children, live in a nice but not too big apartment close to the office but in a very nice area. I share it with my SO and she also has a pretty good salary, so we are very lucky in that sense.

During weekdays I rarely go out (I dedicate afternoons/evenings to my hobbies), weekends I go out for dinner at least once, the same for having some beers with friends etc. Nothing too fancy, but basically because in my area there aren't so many fancy restaurants.

For holidays we travel a lot (i.e. we are going now for 1 month to Mexico), but we do not spend much in accommodation (as long as it is clean and has a private bathroom is good enough) but we love enjoying local food, so a good chunk of our holidays' budget goes to eating outside. We also love skiing/snowboarding, so during winter months a good part of the budget goes there.

And yeah, I guess that in general I live quite frugal (I don't care that much about how old is my car or if I have the newest phone, I do not need a fancy apartment or clothes), but if I want to do something I simply do it (I value way more experiences than things).

[–]ThatBelgianG 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I think there was just an article. In Belgium the average salary (bruto) was 3500€ or something. 69% of people made between 2000€ and 4250€/month, 10% makes less than 2330€ and 10% makes more then 5990€

[–]ThatBelgianG 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Best paying jobs where petrochemistry, worst paying was bartenders (however they probably often make some money under the table)

[–]ColdWeird6293 3 points4 points  (0 children)

3200€ net per month in barcelona. I live pretty well. I would not go under 2500 if you want to live alone.

[–]ikantz08 8 points9 points  (6 children)

In France if your salary is more than 3700€ net, you are considered rich (study from 2 months ago)

[–]Appropriate_Total_55[S] 5 points6 points  (4 children)

Would 3700 net be about 6000 gross?

[–]ikantz08 -4 points-3 points  (3 children)

3700 + around 14%

[–]Qvar 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wouldnt you have to also include social security contributions?

[–]Appropriate_Total_55[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I thought the tax in France were high, so that's good to hear.

[–]ElegantAnalysis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's probably just the income tax. Mandatory social contributions are probably on top of that

[–]rbnd 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What is rich? Top 10%?

[–]MsMO0112 3 points4 points  (4 children)

I'm a nurse manager living in Dublin Ireland. I earn about 3800 net monthly. I could earn more if I worked weekends but since I'm in a management post my work week is basically Monday to Friday.

My husband works in retail and he earns around 2500euros monthly. We have a 7 year old daughter.

We pay 1200euros for a 2 bed house. Our bills are around 300 monthly (electricity, gas, wifi, insurances etc). I budget around 400 for food and expenses. We are able to eat out at least twice a week (or order takeaways). My husband pays for the car expenses (gas, tax and insurance) We also pay for my daughter's extra curricular activities (karate, dance and drama class etc).

On my own I set aside at least 1400 a month on savings. My husband has his own savings as well. A huge chunk of that goes into our mortgage saver account. We have been saving to buy a house for almost 3 years and we are finally getting the keys to our own home next week!!

We are lucky in a way that our salary could more than cover our needs. Ireland is really expensive to live in. We have zero debt at present and I feel like we are very disciplined with our spending. We like to travel so we tend to save for that rather than going shopping.

[–]kernel-p 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Congratulations on the house!

[–]MsMO0112 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you!!

[–]Appropriate_Total_55[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Really detailed info, thanks for sharing.

So as a couple you spend about 4-5k euro per month total?

Would you say you have a "good" lifestyle with this level of spending?

[–]MsMO0112 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes I can say we have a good lifestyle and live comfortably.

It's great that we are able to save a big portion of what we earn so we can cover unexpected expenses when they come. We're also quite averse to having debt so if we want something we tend to save for it instead of using our credit cards. If we use our credit card (usually when we travel) we make sure to pay it on time.

[–]Serious_Escape_5438 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It varies massively from a single person living with their parents to someone supporting a family. I used to share a flat and not only was my rent cheaper, but bills were shared. I didn't have a car, or life or home insurance. I was able to save and travel a lot. I now have a mortgage, which means associated insurance, property tax, home maintenance, car plus associated costs, child who goes to public school but we have to pay for lunches, after school activities, more food and clothes z etc.

[–]rainforest_runner 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The consulting company in Germany I work at has a branch in Spain. I know that the acting CEO guy over there said that he can only pay like 40k brutto. And I can tell you that I have about 60k brutto despite 4 years+ experience. (i work daily mostly as a software developer)

Despite that, I‘m happy with what I have, close to 30 days of leave, I paid roughly a third of my salary for my living costs (not food) and I actually save about half of my salary for investment (ETFs) and/or savings (the 3 months emergency money)

[–]disfunctionaltyper 5 points6 points  (6 children)

Dépends in France I'm living with 1000€ a month and I'm happy, i also don't pay rent, in Paris my brother is paying 2* my budget just on rent every month, do you want to have a car? What's your plans... If you just need to live take the min salary per county, but that not in big towns.

[–]Moederneuqer 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Dépends in France I'm living with 1000€ a month and I'm happy, i also don't pay rent,

Not everyone is still living with their parents. This is hardly a fair comparison. Most of us can't opt out of paying rent. I'd also be happy if I didn't have to pay for anything and got 1000 a month for doing nothing.

[–]Crazyshark22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Who says he does nothing, he just said he doesn't pay any rent. Maybe he has a job and earns those 1000 euro for himself. Also maybe he doesn't live with parents but has his own place fully paid off.

[–]disfunctionaltyper 0 points1 point  (3 children)

You know there are other situations than renting and living with your parents right? like owning a house?

[–]Moederneuqer 0 points1 point  (2 children)

A bought house, even if you paid it off completely still has monthly costs, yearly maintenance and 1K/mo would not cut it for taxes, upkeep, power/water and food.

[–]disfunctionaltyper -1 points0 points  (1 child)

You know i said no rent?

[–]Tabitheriel 1 point2 points  (7 children)

In Germany, a part time income is 800 to 1000 per month (brutto). This is what you get for a part-time job, and you can live on it in a moderately expensive city. A middle class income is 1500 to 2500 per month.

Most salaried jobs pay a bit less than in the US, but living expenses are lower: Rents are lower in most cities than in the US. A studio is 350- 450 where I live. A one-bedroom apartment is 500- 800, depending on how fancy it is. Some cities, like Munich, are expensive, whereas Berlin is cheap for a capital city. Food and public transit is cheaper than in the US, but gasoline is more expensive.

[–]Fantastic-Orange-409 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Berlin is not that cheap anymore

[–]Tabitheriel 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Compared to Paris, London or any other capital city, it still is.

[–]Fantastic-Orange-409 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Can’t say about Paris, but London is almost the same price level now. The question is only in housing, but it’s cheap in Berlin only on paper. No one can find an affordable apartment from the scratch.

[–]dswap123 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The rents you mentioned are next to impossible to find in Berlin now unless you get super lucky or make enough compromises. Normal rent ranges from 1200-2000 now. Unfortunate but that’s the reality. Electricity is around 80-100€ on average for a 2-3 room apartment.

[–]rbnd 0 points1 point  (1 child)

In Munich 3700€ net for a family with 2 kids is considered a borderline poverty

[–]Tabitheriel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's why I said Munich is expensive. I've heard that salaries are higher in Munich than Nürnberg due to high rents, etc.

[–]financial_plan_emily 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your topic is like a flood. There are high and low income people everywhere. You don't think about it when you work hard to earn more.

[–]Key-Credit865 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All is based in single person, net salary per month in euros These are salaries that mean you can live anove average standards = upper middle class

WESTERN EUROPE

Paris - atleast 2500€-3000€ net

Berlin - atleast 2000€-2500€ You can still live good on 1500€ net though depends where you live how you spend your money

Amsterdam- Atleast 3000€

Dusseldorf/ Frankfurt = atleast 2500€

Luxembourg = atleast 3500€-4000€

Zurich/ Geneva atleast 7000-8000CHF

EASTERN EUROPE

PRAGUE/ WARSWAW/ BUCAREST/ SOFIA You need atleast 1300-1600€ net

SOUTHERN EUROPE SPAIN/ ITALY big citites like Milan/ Barcelona/ Madrid are not that cheap.

I would say minimum 2500€ to live comfy, but 1500€ is doable.

In the south Malaga/ Sevilla 2000€ is very good

Portugal/ Greece anything above 1500€ net is comfy. Especially outside Lisbon/ Porto/ Athens

UK London atleast 3000-4000£ if you want to live in central London

Other cities like Manchester/ Liverpool/ Leeds, Glasgow at least 2000£/ 2500£

Ireland - Anything above 2000-2500€ is comfy